Rumsfeld stands five feet, seven and one-half inches tall?

[NNN0LHI]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14622647/

<snip>OLBERMANN: Thank you, sir.

The comments of Mr. Rumsfeld this week only fueling the fires of discontent against the rhetoric in the Bush administration. John Dean, the author of “Conservatives Without Conscience,” joins us ahead.

And here‘s an interesting fact. Mr. Rumsfeld stands five feet, seven and one-half inches tall. This youngster does not.



Thought I misunderstood Kieth the other night. Guess I didn't.

[Cooley Hurd]

1. Small in stature...

...even smaller in humanity. It took 30 years, but I finally know who Randy Newman wrote the song about...;)

[Maine-ah]

9. at 4'11" I have always been deeply offended by that song.

[Benfea]

20. You misunderstand the meaning of the song then.

Newman was showing how ridiculous prejudice is by directing at a group of people most find to be unthreatening.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

27. "Shorties" can't understand that kind of nuance.

(passive-aggressive satire)


:hide:

[Benfea]

32. *hoists trout* SMAT! -NT

[walldude]

28. Yup, I can't believe people still think that song was

a shot at little people. Randy Newman is as humanitarian as they come, if you think that song is a slight you need to listen to it again. Not just listen to it but hear what he is saying....

[Solly Mack]

2. Rummy is comparatively short. I've mentioned this before on DU.

One of the first things soldiers noticed about Rummy when they were assigned to the Pentagon for security detail was just how small Rumsfeld is(all the way around small was how they put it)...it was the most remarked about detail among returning soldiers. This was late 2001/early 2002 when I was first told after a platoon from our unit returned from DC.

The soldiers talked about the platform behind the podium when Rumsfeld spoke and that there was a special podium as well...smaller than the others, that Rumsfeld sometimes used.

The soldiers expected someone with a commanding presence and that just wasn't the reality. And it wasn't just his height they said...he seemed small in all ways

[madokie]

3. megalomania.

he may be small in stature but he is huge is evil

[Solly Mack]

4. Truly.

[vickitulsa]

6. Yeah, "Napoleonic complex" was the phrase that occurred to me.

The well-aged psych term had a somewhat solid rooting in the tendency of many men who are very short among taller ones to try to compensate for their lack of stature with great accomplishments -- or at least attention-getting ones. We could doubtless find in history plenty of short people who did good things in that effort as well as bad, so let's be fair about that.

But of course I see Rummy as a prime example of a Napoleon type -- one who wanted to prove he was as great a "warrior" as anyone by achieving military victories to the awe of all humankind.

My former Navy SEAL boyfriend Mark happens also to be the exact same height as Rummy, but he's a different type altogether! He is quiet and unassuming -- until a challenge confront him. He has a great zest for life and it shows.

They barely let him into BUDs schooling due to his height (SEALs are supposed to be at least 5'8"), but he squeaked by and proved himself to be the best climber and an all-around reliable fighter and survivor in Dick Marcinko's (in)famous SEAL Team Six -- the first counterterrorist SEAL team ever formed. Mark also did high altitude climbing -- ice and rock -- and was an extreme sports sort of guy in his leisure time. If you can call that leisure!

Now in his late fifties like me, Mark has mellowed a great deal, but he's still a man other men respect. He takes jokes about his height with equanimity, probably because he doesn't feel inferior in any way. Methinks Rummy would toss a hissyfit if he overheard any short jokes about himself....

[madokie]

11. Ask your friend about Warner Springs and S.E.R.E. training

I spent 19 months there. Oh so many years ago

[PsN2Wind]

18. You were at Warner Springs?

I tried to get up there when I was in FAETUPAC 60-61 because I dearly hated NAS North Island. But they claimed they didn't need an AT.

[madokie]

30. yes I was stationed there in '68 and part of '69

I couldn't figure out why I was having to go to survival school at first until instead of going to another duty station they told me you are our newest member. It was great duty as far as the navy goes but warner springs is a long way from no where. I was on duty for a total of 27 hrs a week average and I worked as a bus boy at the warner spring resort, now that was some good times. met several celebrities during that time too. I say met actually bussed their tables was more like it. anyways

[vickitulsa]

25. Mark was at Coronado and then Little Creek

with the Marcinko crew. He is fifth generation Navy, a dual citizen of Australia and the U.S. (born in Sydney in 1951 to two U.S. Navy parents), and his dad was one of the original WWII-era "frogmen."

Richard Marcinko (known as "Demo Dick" to his Team Six men) was always getting into trouble with the brass and eventually was "politely removed" from command. He and Six managed to rack up a lot of interesting achievements anyway -- most notorious was their assignment (later denied to have existed by govt officials) to take on the role of terrorists and try to break in to various govt and military installations and facilities. The idea was, of course, to test our own military's vulnerability. These guys let their hair and beards grow and didn't dress like the rest of the troops, especially at Little Creek, and they had their own shack there. No doubt booby trapped to keep their secrets secret. Hah!

Anyway, Team Six successfully penetrated, with great ease, as it turned out, not only army and navy bases but one nuclear submarine, an aircraft carrier, and Air Force One when it sat on a tarmac temporarily out of use. They took security chiefs captive and once went a little too far in their tormenting treatment of a colonel who later tried to have their asses on a platter for it. But they were protected then by Admiral Al Lyons, if I remember his name correctly, who oversaw their operations. Seems mostly everyone was horribly embarrassed by their successes in penetrating supposedly "secure" sites, thus the denial of their mission by the brass and civilian "leadership."

But these guys weren't dumb. They took along another SEAL who could keep up with them toting a videocamera and filmed virtually every one of their incursions, documenting the whole mission. You can still acquire cassette videos of their exploits at many sporting goods stores. It's easy to find on the Web, as well -- goes usually by titles like "Secret Missions of U.S. Navy SEALs." Mark is the short guy whom you can see leading the way any time climbing is required. He'd scurry up and over tall razor-wire fencing and then up the sides of multi-storied buildings like a damn monkey, then he'd help the other guys follow. Ya can't see any of their faces, however -- they always wore their balaclavas. I have some great old still photos of Mark in action, too -- snapshots taken by Demo Dick himself when the team was engaged in a practice mission rescuing hostages who were being held on an offshore oil rig in the Gulf of Mexico. Great pics, including one of Mark again leading the way as they were about to enter the facility, with his trusty Model 55 (stainless steel) Smith&Wesson .38 revolver drawn and ready. I call it his "knock knock" photo.

Demo Dick was finally arrested by the Navy and prosecuted for having Navy equipment like SCUBA gear and other goodies at his home location. He was accused of stealing the equipment, and he probably did acquire it through some "midnight requisitions," but mainly the Navy was just ready to discredit him by that time. He served one year in prison in Virginia during which time he teamed up with a writer who helped him start the bestselling "Rogue Warrior" series of novels. The initial book was not at all fiction, however, and the Navy only allowed him to keep publishing later books in the series if he indicated the work was "fictionalized." Mark appears fairly often in that first book by his nickname "Trailer Court" or just "Trailer," which he still uses. He was a little pissed at Marcinko, though, because he didn't know his activities were going to be so publicized until after the book was in print!

Most of this happened during the 80's; but Mark also served two tours in Vietnam, 1969-70. He lost his swim buddy to a sniper there and was unable, under a barrage of fire during an ambush, to retrieve his body, which haunts Mark to this day. The body was recovered but later and by others, Marines I think. His bud's name is on the Wall in D.C., along with the many others we lost in that abominable war....

Mark's away on one of his own personal "missions" right now and out of touch for the duration, but I'll ask him about Warner Springs and S.E.R.E. training when I talk to him next. He has mellowed a lot but you don't have to be around him long to recognize something very special about the man. Nor do people who meet him ever seem to want to start any trouble with him, though he rarely ever raises his voice and never starts a ruckus. Definitely a rare guy, and one I'm proud to say I love.

Oh, and as someone whose daughter's dad was 6'6" and who's last husband was 6'4-1/2", I can confirm that assholes come in all sizes and shapes! But being with a man so close to my own height like Mark is is definitely my favorite configuration! Toe to toe and nose to nose, ya know.... ;)

[madokie]

31. yes I would like to share some stories about the SERE training

it has been so long ago for me but some of it seem like only yesterday. The rush for freedom with the eventual capture and the 5 days in the POW compound, the flyovers, the interrogations, all so real. Several in each class never made it through to graduation, as it wasn't for wusses. UDT and the Seal teams were the biggest challenge for us. Still to this day you won't catch me without a knife of some sort with me and a source of fire, two things that are vital to one's survival.
I have only met two others who went through the class and no others who were stationed there. I left there for a tour in 'nam spending 15 months in country. Came home in Oct of '70 a very changed man from the country boy who a few years earlier joined the Navy. I can't go to the wall or haven't gotten the courage yet. the traveling wall has been here in NE Ok on a couple occasions. Its all still an emotional time for me 35 some odd years later. And that is what worries me about our brave soldiers in todays illegal and immoral war, not unlike us Vietnam Vets caught between two wrongs. fighting and the giving up of innocence for a war of choice, so sad. :cry:
It pisses me off what these cowards, chickenhawk bastards are doing to our country today.

[vickitulsa]

34. I totally agree with you about the "Chickenhawk-In-Charge"

and his fellow cowards at the helm -- and the harm they're doing these days not only to our own country but throughout the world.

Makes me sick.

And reminds me every day of Vietnam.

I worry, too, about the effects on our troops, particularly in Iraq and Afghanistan, where their frequent encounters with I.E.D.'s and other surprise attacks by "insurgents" seem designed to create the greatest number of PTSD cases imagineable. I've felt this way about it ever since I first learned about the term "I.E.D." -- and sadly my predictions in this respect have proved out over time.

And of course, once again (like in Vietnam), our soldiers are receiving short shrift in terms of relief and treatment for PTSD, even getting diagnoses by official medical personnel that fall short of PTSD so they can be redeployed to the same zones. I can think of almost nothing so devastating and difficult for soldiers than to be sent back into the same conditions that caused their PTSD in the first place! It must be like being in hell with a broke back.

I hold those in charge in our government directly responsible for this cost in human misery, and I hope that someday they will have to pay for what they have done. Sometimes I think we all felt that Nixon's ultimate disgrace and fate (forced to resign) meant we would never again have to worry about our "leaders" engaging in illegal and immoral military and intelligence activities in pursuit of their secret agendas, but that certainly was not the case. These guys in power now make Nixon and his crew look like choirboys by comparison!

As to S.E.R.E. training, since I couldn't ask Mark about it yet, I looked it up on the Web after reading what you wrote and definitely can understand why you would NEVER be able to forget those days. I thought I'd heard the term from Mark's mouth before, but now I realize that I simply hadn't made the connection of the term to the activities and experiences. I am more familiar with the often-used term "E&E" among my Nam vet pals, but "official" S.E.R.E. training goes much farther, of course!

Like many of you Vietvets, Mark doesn't talk about it all very often, but when we first met in 1998, he could tell that my interest in hearing about his experiences was from a genuine concern and also after I'd already gained a lot of understanding from my constant association with many vets who'd "been there done that." So in quiet moments sometimes, especially in the middle of the night and after he'd been awakened by yet another bad dream and couldn't go back to sleep, he'd get started telling me about what he'd done and gone through and really open up. One time in particular I remember he was talking about survival in the bush -- not the training, but in action in Nam (or Laos or Cambodia or wherever they were) -- and how far a human being under such extreme conditions can "devolve" to an almost animalistic level. He said that when he realized he and his crew could sneak up on some VC about to eat a hot supper of nuc mam, slaughter all of the enemy and then sit down where they'd been sitting and eat their hot meal, still steaming, and with blood running down his arms, he suddenly wondered if they could ever return to "civilized" life again.

I can affirm that he has done an amazing job of readjusting, but it has taken a very long time. And still to this day he, like you, Madokie, won't go anywhere without a knife and a source of fire -- it's just common sense to him. And to me, now. He has even taught me a great deal about survival, although I'm getting too old and decrepit to do much along those lines anymore. I still feel somehow better and safer just for having the knowledge -- perhaps to impart to some younger souls if the need ever arose?

As for Warner Springs, which I also looked up on the Web, it would appear the place has become a private resort now, and looks like a terrific spot to me! I spent one summer with my cousins living in Escondido, and they had a small horse farm on the edge of town where we spent the entire summer riding all over the "sand hills" and through a great many orchards. Not that far away from Warner Springs, and my memories of the area are of an idyllic place.

Having fun riding through wilderness areas is very different from undergoing survival training in such a region, of course. But it sounds like what you were doing at Warner Springs wasn't the "survival" part of the training, right? :)

Interesting history you have there, Madokie. A big **SALUTE!** to you from me for your service and your continuing interest in the wellbeing of your country -- my country -- a once great country now brought low by thugs in power. Hopefully one day we'll see this nation return to a more positive status at home and abroad, but it's going to take a lot of work to get there....

Mark always borrows from the Edgar Rice Burroughs novel series (scifi), John Carter, Warlord of Mars, where Carter's perennial cry when in dire danger was, "I yet live!" As long as he was alive, there was hope to keep fighting for victory. Our fights nowadays may be in the "trenches" of politics and social welfare instead of in the fields of combat, but they are important battles just the same, and we mustn't give up!

[smirkymonkey]

23. Napoleonic complex?

Why are so many insecure short guys all hell bent on war and destruction?

[NewJeffCT]

17. 5'7" is comparatively short... but

It's not that remarkable.

My guess is that Rummy probably says he is 5'7", but is probably closer to 5'5" or so, in real life. Now, 5'5" is probably a height that is noticeably short for a guy.

Since I am a guy, one thing I have noticed over the years is that men lie about their height. If a guy says that they are 5'7", chances are that the guy could be anywhere from 5'4" to 5'7", and most likely is less than 5'7". Heck, most of the NBA is listed as 2-3" inches taller than their real heights, so it is acceptable for people to do this (women do it as well, but not nearly as much as men)

[TheCowsCameHome]

5. Wouldn't be half that tall except for the little p***k takes Viagra.

What a wretched, evil little man.

[gademocrat7]

7. Small man, small brain. Isn't that called Napoleon syndrome?

[RC]

8. Almost Half way down:

ANDERSON: I think people like Mark Shurtleff have completely forgotten that patriotism is about love of country. And those of us who were out there yesterday were there because we do love our country, and we have the same values that underlie the foundation of our country, and that form the foundation for our Constitution, whereas we feel very strongly that this administration has lost complete touch with those values.

OLBERMANN: And we never honor the war dead by smearing the people who did not want them to die in the first place.

The mayor of Salt Lake City, Rocky Anderson. Great thanks for your time, Mayor.

[leftchick]

15. that was a beautiful exchange

thank you for posting it. :)

[onethatcares]

10. well, he's

neck deep in the big muddy and the damn fool keeps saying, "push on" (thank you Pete Seeger.

[Justice Is Comin]

12. His head would still stick up out of a foxhole.

[B Calm]

13. I know plenty of tall assholes too!!

[jmowreader]

14. I didn't know they stacked shit that high!

[lemmingherder]

16. Average height for a ChickenHawk?

Hmmm.

I wonder if there is a corollary between teh administration officials height and their reluctance to admit they are screwing up.

Napoleon complex perhaps?

http://dontbealemming.com/2006/09/04/another-pr-coup-for-the-chickenhawks-and-just-in-time-for-november-elections.aspx

Posted by the Lemming Herder at <A HREF ="http://www.dontbealemming.com">Don’t Be A Lemming!</A>

[MiniMe]

19. Napolean syndrome

Just my theory, but I have seen it before. Some short men seem to try to make up for their lack of height with power.

[Marr]

21. Why is it that a short asshole has "Napoleon Complex", but a tall

asshole is just an asshole?

Maybe Rumsfeld is just a short-sighted, arrogant, greedy, warmongering prick. Just like Cheney, but a few inches shorter.

[BrotherBuzz]

22. Rumsfeld has small feet, and you know what they say about small feet

If Sigmund freud was still with us today he could connect the small feet with the Napoleon Complex. Despite Freud's flaws, he might just agree with you in the end; an asshole is still just an asshole.

[smirkymonkey]

24. The tall ones have small dicks that they have named "Napoleon"

That's my theory, anyway.

[vickitulsa]

26. You do know why guys name their penises, don't you?

So they don't have all their decisions made for them by a total stranger!

(Oops! Hah, gotcha, right? ;))

Of course there's no fairness in generalizing about a person's integrity connected to his height or any other physical characteristics. There are some very admirable people who were quite short in stature, like James Madison, whom I understand was only 5'5" or so, and my own Navy SEAL Mark is IMO a good example.

But tallness in men has long been respected for obvious reasons having to do with basic qualities that contribute to an individual's survival and his ability to keep and protect others for whom he is responsible. My ex-husband Dave was 6'4-1/2" tall, but he was the gentlest of men and absolutely hated fistfights or brawls. He would only defend himself if pushed really hard, but once he did, as far as I know he always won. Most who swung at him seemed to have regretted trying to do so when their hands and arms collided with those "blades" -- the bones in his forearms -- if he simply blocked their punches.

My daughter's biodad, another Vietnam vet, who was 6'6" when I knew him in 1968, was a case of someone who was big, handsome as the devil himself, brilliant, and arrogant as they come -- someone who actually admits to being an asshole, oddly enough. He left me behind pregnant when he shipped out for Nam in '68, after having LIED to me about a mythical vasectomy. He promptly forgot about me then, and I had no way to contact him to let him know I was pregnant. Our daughter finally decided to find him in 1998, and the old fart nearly had a heart attack when she called him up and told him who she was!

Joe had been a doorgunner in helicopter gunships near Cu Chi and then Tay Ninh, 1968-69, and he'd been in 13 crashes -- only three of them hard landings, he said. But those crashes jammed his body so hard that he lost a full two inches in height! He still has more metal in his neck than you would believe until you saw the X-rays. He has also died three times while in the care of medical personnel, but he always came back, so it would seem he's a hard sucker to kill.

Don't know why I'm telling all this, except that I got started on my Vietnam (and related) stories, and I guess I thought some of you fellow vets might be interested. I respect the hell out of alla you guys, assholes or good men, tall or short, for what you sacrificed and how people in this country four decades ago made you pay way more dues than anyone ought to have to. At least they did this until recent years when it seems they've been trying to make up for it. Ashamed, so many folks are, of how they treated you -- and well they should be!

It disturbs me, however, that now we seem to have gone way too far the other direction, feeling we must "support the troops" no matter what they're sent to do. Does anyone agree with me about that, I wonder? I mean, I certainly don't want to see a return to the times when war protesters insulted and spit on soldiers or tried to stop troops trains from taking recruits to boot camp by lighting bonfires on the tracks, sending a crazy message to those young guys -- most of them drafted, of course, and many of them were already scared shitless about what lay ahead for them thanks to Uncle Sam.

But on the other hand, surely we should at least communicate to those who wish to protect and serve our country honorably that what's being done these days in our name and through their actions, under orders from Bush administration criminals, is NOT honorable or desired by most of us. Right? How else will they know? The media certainly aren't putting the word out about that very well.

I've been in a quandary about this for some time now and am no nearer to resolving the troubling moral dilemma I feel -- regarding the troops, not the wars and other covert military actions and "intelligence" operations (often propaganda or fodder for it) which I have no doubt are being conducted far and wide.

Whether they are "led" by short assholes or tall ones, or average ones like Darth Cheney and the Chimperor himself, our men and women in uniform deserve better than what they're getting! It's true that they are volunteers these days, and that as such they willingly take oaths to serve the people, which means they must follow orders they're given by military superiors. I get that. But then it becomes complicated because, as I understand it after a great many conversations with my vet pals and a fair bit of study on the matter, soldiers are also duty-bound to DISobey UNlawful orders.

What I've never fully comprehended is how on earth those who serve are supposed to go about disobeying unlawful orders in actual practice. Every instance in the field is, after all, unique. Yet there's the overall military action (war) being prosecuted, as well -- how do soldiers refuse, say, on a company or battalion level, to follow orders because they believe them to be unlawful?

My heart really goes out to our troops these days, but I have to admit a part of me is starting to resent the fact that they continue to obey orders, not just in Iraq but around the world, which I believe are unlawful and which are putting all Americans AT RISK, NOT protecting us....

Mark resigned reluctantly after a decade of service in the Navy due to his inability eventually to reconcile the dishonorable nature of things he was ordered to do with his own dearly held principles. He was proud of his Navy career, but toward the end of it he could no longer feel proud of what he was doing. Not everyone nowadays has the option of simply resigning, so what DO they do?

[longship]

29. OT: Wasn't Hubert Humphrey very short?

Just curious. I remember him well, but during the 60's and 70's it was still a time when personal info on pols wasn't well known.

I've Googled this, but there doesn't seem to be anything definitive on it.

[bumblebee1]

33. While we're on the subject of short dictators:

Joseph Stalin- 5'4" tall.