the cost of transportation, gasoline and electricity

[madokie]

Edit to add: This is not my own writing I am only passing it on.

MPG comparisons with IC vehicles make little sense, because the
energy content of a gallon of gasoline masks the HUGE wars,
diplomacy, energy and other costs of gasoline. So while the gallon
of gas looks like a bargain, at about 35 kWh for about 8 lbs., it
comes with a "ghost" standing right behind it...dead soldiers,
ruined cultures, oil-soaked Sea Otters, blasted wetlands, squandered
water, electric and natural gas, air and Ocean pollution.

HOWEVER, the rule of thumb, if you want to simplify such
comparisons, is that the SEV gets from 4 to 6 miles for each kWh of
electric power in the battery pack. It takes a bit more energy to
charge the battery, and there is a loss in inversion and re-
conversion to DC charging (94.5% efficient inverter), so let's say a
total "sunlight to wheel well" efficiency of 3 miles per kWh, or
about 105 MPGE (105 miles traveled on the energy equivalent of one
gallon of gasoline, without the gasoline).

Now let's look at the gallon of gasoline, and see what our fleet
average 20 MPG *really* works out to...

More than 8% of the energy in the gallon of gasoline had to be spent
for electric and natural gas to extract and refine it, according to
the CEC website that making gasoline is our number one industrial
user of natural gas and electric power...what do you think raises
that oil from the wells, and runs the refineries? Then there is the
cooling water, hundreds of millions of gallons per day of Taxpayer-
subsidized potable water. So that creates a "ghost" energy that is
required for that gallon, meaning it takes about 39 kWh to make the
35 kWh in the gallon of gasoline just based on traceable electric
and natural gas costs. So when you burn the gallon of gas, you are
burning a "ghost" 4 kWh in addition to the delivered 35 kWh, or a
total of at least 40 kWh when you count in the cost of gasoline
transport trucks and gas station energy usage. So that gallon of
gas is already "ghosted" even ignoring pollution and land-use
refinery costs in addition to extraction, pumping and refining.

Much of our war budget (can't call it defense any more) is spent on
protecting and transporting oil fields and pipelines. While the
energy content of running a giant aircraft carrier battle group, and
its covey of warplanes, is difficult to amortize over 10B gallons of
gasoline per year, we can talk about dollars...say $200B of those
war dollars, meaning that each gallon of gasoline costs $20 in war
costs alone. Running this down to kWh, at least 50% of the energy
content in the gallon of gasoline was spent in fighting for and
defending transport of that gallon of gasoline...This "ghost" energy
brings us to about 80 kWh, 35 kWh delivered and at least 45
kWh "ghosts" that you can't get.

Pollution and health care costs, urban runoff of oil debris also has
an energy cost...but lets be generous, and say that each gallon of
gasoline has 20 kWh of these energy "ghosts" in excess of other
costs.

With this kind of reasoning, tracing the life-cycle costs of
gasoline, the ostensible 20 miles granted by the 35 kWh in each
gallon of gasoline really costs more than 100 kWh when all upstream
costs are considered.. .

The traditional calculation is that the IC vehicle gets .6 miles per
kWh (20/35). But with the "ghost" energy in the calculation, the IC
only gets at most .2 miles per kWh (20/100).

The additional costs of solar power...well, the sun is free, but
making the solar panels costs energy. Amortized over the projected
life of the solar panels, more than 25 years at 80%, these costs are
very small...say 1%.

So your SEV goes 100 miles up to 200 miles on the energy equivalent
of one gallon of gasoline (at between 3 and 6 miles per kWh at 35
kWh per gallon equivalent, "GGE") but at least 3 miles per GGE.

Counting in the additional energy costs of gasoline manufacture and
extraction, the GGE is not 35 kWh but really 100 kWh!

So you really go the equivalent of 300 miles up to 600 miles per
GGE, when the energy "ghosts" alone (not counting other costs) that
come with gasoline are added in...

[Deja Q]

1. If enough oil fields were destroyed,

the cost of living would skyrocket. Not just for gasoline or the transport of food, but the cost to grow, harvest, package, and store it too.

If our oil fellas would do what they rest of us have to do (find new careers because of obsolescence or replaced by "more efficient" means), ALL OF US would be able to live and prosper and not continue polluting this planet we're stuck on.

Ultimately, they will be replaced. Trouble is, they have no respect for life that's not themselves. It's ironic that the future of humankind is in the hands of people who have no respect for anything unless it's green and comes out of a big metal printing machine.

Still, if global warming is for real, they're trapped too. I'm off to party, what the hell.

[cornermouse]

2. Want to put that in English for the

engineering and technically challenged like me?

[madokie]

3. that electricity is a viable source of energy to get our butts

from one place to another, in fact more so than fossil fuels

[cornermouse]

5. Thank you.

You were way-y-y-y beyond my comprehension on this subject. :) You left me in the dust.

I know solar works well as a passive heat source. How efficient is solar at providing electricity or are there negative aspects about it other than start up costs; such as maintenance?

[madokie]

7. the best solar panels now are approaching 40%

I edited to add I didn't write this myself. sorry

[skids]

9. All manufacturing has a footprint.

In solar products it is energy expended plus, if not policed, chemical waste products.

However, today's solar panels are not your grandma's variety and the amount of useful energy extracted versus footprint far exceeds fossil fuels, may currently exceed nuclear, and definitely will exceed nuclear in the next 5 years or so.

[cornermouse]

12. Which brings me to the next question.

Is it possibly better to go solar at an earlier stage of development on the premise that if solar becomes a major success, the power companies may find a way to put a lock on it to prevent consumers from being able to buy and produce their own power thereby making the power companies obsolete for everyone but those who can afford to invest in solar or (this is harder to imagine) will solar result in a major drop in our utility bills (to discourage private individuals from going solar) if the power companies go solar?

I hope that makes sense?

[madokie]

13. If I may but in, my take is that solar power would be good for all

and that the powers to be will try to figure a way to corner the market for said energy. They haven't figured out a way yet so that is why we aren't utilizing it more. imo

[skids]

14. Possible? maybe. Likely probably not.

A just as likely scenario would be them hiking prices to squeeze every last cent out of what they know is a dying industry.

As for as when the "time to buy in" is in a less hypothetical vein, if you can afford it, now is looking pretty good at the momemnt. It seems the temporary silicon shortage has been priced into the market and the only thing bringing prices up now is plain old inflation, which just gets worse the longer one waits. (Though if one has not yet done solar thermal water heating, doing that first is recommended.)

There will be a point when the concentrating collectors really reach the market in ernest and prices drop a lot, but by the time that happens those that bought in now will have collected much more than the price difference in free electricity.

As prices for it drop there are reasons to "go off grid" that have nothing to do with power prices -- stability and convenience in remote locations being two.

[fed-up]

8. here's the important part for me that I can remember and pass on to others

MPG comparisons with IC vehicles make little sense, because the
energy content of a gallon of gasoline
masks the HUGE wars,
diplomacy, energy and other costs of gasoline. So while the gallon
of gas looks like a bargain, at about 35 kWh for about 8 lbs., it
comes with a "ghost" standing right behind it...dead soldiers,
ruined cultures, oil-soaked Sea Otters, blasted wetlands, squandered
water, electric and natural gas, air and Ocean pollution.


Much of our war budget (can't call it defense any more) is spent on
protecting and transporting oil fields and pipelines. While the
energy content of running a giant aircraft carrier battle group, and
its covey of warplanes, is difficult to amortize over 10B gallons of
gasoline per year, we can talk about dollars...say $200B of those
war dollars,
meaning that each gallon of gasoline costs $20 in war
costs alone.

[cornermouse]

10. That wasn't the part that I was struggling with,

but thanks or something anyway...

[sweetheart]

11. Its pretending the world is run by wise people

But we know better, given the world,
and they value military power over all else, and this power, as the
article points out, itself takes enormous petrol costs to fly its
legions of bombers, and big nuclear as well, to power its big carriers
submarines and nuclear bombes. So the solar country that eliminates
the petrol economy is not able to defend itself from a nation with
unlimited aviation fuel, and if the solar generation developed solar
powered weapons, then we might have a chance.

[acmejack]

4. Great post, Okie!

You have hidden talents! Just what did you do in your former life?

But few consider the hidden price of extorting, taking, coercing or otherwise gaining access to that gallon of fuel. The only answer at the present time is to drastically reduce our energy gluttony and that requires a dramatic alteration in our lifestyles. A change which I don't see people willing to make until catastrophe is upon them, which, as we know, will be too late.

It would help tremendously if we could conduct an open and honest conversation on this topic, but unfortunately, there are just too many who are too invested financially to allow this to happen. It is amazing that those people are willing to play russian roulette with the future of the entire human race in order to ensure their personal fortunes, but there you have it.

[madokie]

6. My apologies I forgot to add this is not my work, I will correct in post