Post here if you remember a different DU

[WilliamPitt]

I see this:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=2047354&mesg_id=2047354

...and it breaks my heart.

I've written three books. In each of them, I've thanked DU from the bottom of my heart...because I owe this place, because once upon a time this was as good as it got. Brawls? Sure. Ugly? All too often. Different than that wad of horror linked above?

Like night and day.

This isn't DU anymore. This is some other pile of wretched, and if that thread is representative of us, well...that is simply humiliating.

If that thread above comes within a mile of representing us today, then all there is to say is that whatever this place was, it was good while it lasted.

It didn't last nearly long enough to do what we set out to do, and it is clearly finished now, if that thread is the avatar of what we are here.

If that pile of awful is representative, we deserve everything we get. Defeat, fascism, terror, etc. We deserve it all, if that is the best we can do. Clearly, we can't do any better, if that is the best we've got.

:puke:

Shame.

[demobabe]

1. Does this mean you're leaving again?

;)

[WilliamPitt]

2. Not unless you come with me

Come with me to the Casbah, we shall makes beautiful musics togethah...



...I'm not wrong, and you know it.

[radwriter0555]

50. I believe the vitriole is a symptom of the general unhappiness people all

over the USA are feeling. When people are unhappy, they get mean and take it out on other people.

I've always found without exception that mean people are simply miserable and they want others to be miserable just like them.

That doesn't excuse their words, actions or behavior, but it's just an simplified version of why they're being so wretched.

The next step is for these mean, unhappy people to realize what they're doing and how they're behaving and to just knock it off. It accomplishes nothing, especially in a forum like this that stands far above the maddening crowd. We just don't want to become like "them..."

[izzie]

65. Never give up. And what is wrong with DU?

We used to talk a lot about food when I first came on. I guessed some one was on a diet. And what happened to all the cats? We still can not take the new GOP and I am all for that. They are just so un-American I can hardly think of them in MY country.

[papau]

87. The kids are back in school and are posting - plus newbies from other

boards - like FreeRepublic - still use the guidelines of those other boards.

All will calm down and the newbies will turn out to be nice folks, and the kids will grow up to be nice adults - at least I hope so! :-)

[King Coal]

97. You've changed too, Will. You used to be a nice guy.

Lately, you've been drinking your own bathwater. Irwin took risks for money. That's fine. Write a book about it. But he also put his own baby at risk for money. Include that in the new book. Irwin could have been run over by the beer truck and it wouldn't change anything. He monkeyed with snakes to thrill viewers. Some DU'ers think that is hands on education. I've had to help pack a 280 pound Texas boiler maker back to the truck and into town because he was giving us some hands on and got struck by a timber rattler. He drank his bathwater too, I imagine.

[LostinVA]

156. Educate yourself about Iriwn before you slag him

Dislike him all you want -- as long as it's based on facts, and not falsehoods.

I don't know Will, never met him, but he seems the same to me as when I read his posts as a lurker years ago.

[demobabe]

3. But really, Will...

If you didn't want to see a thread like that, why on earth did you start it? You knew exactly (as I did) what the response would be.

Now you're posting ANOTHER thread to question the responses on a thread you started?

[WilliamPitt]

5. Irony

Two posts expecting different responses...questioning me about expecting responses from my posts?

Are you this clever on purpose?

[demobabe]

7. No, Will

Clever? Me? No, not now. It's late and I'm sleepy. But I agree with you about the demeanor of the DU... Not good, not good. People are getting polarized on issues that shouldn't even matter (relatively speaking). Bad.

[elehhhhna]

90. Dbab, consider changing your minicker to "Pot" as in pot & kettel

Does ZOT ring any bells for you?

[mirandapriestly]

4. I think elehna was right in that thread

we're infested. Divide and conquer.

[LostinVA]

59. I agree with that to a great extent

There are many more disruptors here than there used to be -- and they skirt the line, and some are adept at getting long-time posters banned: they poke and poke and poke until the poster goes bonkers, then sit back and laugh while they get TSed. Some have thousands of posts. Many of us know who most of them are.

I agree.

[glitch]

104. Look at it another way - if we were irrelevant there would be no reason

to disrupt.

[tkmorris]

6. Oh I do

And there are some days I really mourn the loss of that place we used to have. It truly was special.

Sometimes though I see what has happened to DU and realize it was inevitable. The very thing that used to make this such a wonderful forum, also made it more popular. More well-known. And of course, more of a threat to people with other agendas.

It's tough some days to see all of the quality that still exists here. It IS here ya know, just harder to find than it used to be. There is more wheat, but there is also more chaff. I try to remember that the reason I see so many....... people of questionable repute? Perhaps. Anyway the reason there are so many is because DU's profile has risen so far. They come, like moths to a flame. It was unavoidable from the beginning, if the site was to be successful.

[wakeme2008]

8. Yes people that Bold Faced Lied to DUers

Now are putting out silly posts trying to Rehabilitate their image.

[WilliamPitt]

9. "How are putting out silly posts trying to Rehabilitate their image."

:rofl:

Grammar. It's your friend.

[leftchick]

37. pot

kettle

[acmavm]

10. People are angry. And angry people don't cut any slack. And a lot

of people jumped the gun and thought he was doing something stupid like the feed the croc/hold the baby thing.

People here are fed articles, posts, opinions, and pictures that fan the flames of their anger. Day in and day out. There is just so much to digest. And because the ARE informed, they do understand what's really going on, and they feel so powerless to help it they seem to be acting out in strange ways.

And its not like the issues that are making them angry are little things, they are BIG THINGS, BIG ISSUES with people on either one side or the other, no middle ground. Immigration and Israel being the two biggest that I can think of immediately.

Then there are the ones that we all agree on, but still get really angry over. Jobs loss, the crappy jobs available, taxes (and the tax breaks for the rich), and of course the criminals running our government. Can you ever think of a time like this? Can you tell me when we've had a more corrupt or dangerous bunch of thugs running this country? Can you tell me when another Attorney General has ever declared 'sovereign immunity' for another American president (and I use that term loosely)?

Why do you think there are so many people here now? Because they're happy, times are good, and we don't have to worry about whether or not someone's listening in on our phones, reading our e-mails? They're not disenfrancising the American people by taking away their voting rights? That's just the tip of the iceberg. People are smarter here (as a general rule) and they see more. So they're more angry.

[OffWithTheirHeads]

35. Yes, DU has changed. How could it not?

EVERYDAY, the Bush Nazi's present a new outrage. Everyday they find another way to attack our constitution and bill of rights. When DU began, we were just pissed at a stolen election. We had NO IDEA how bad it would get! The battle has been relentless and more exhausting than any of us could have imagined. The Rove machine has run a steamroller over us and we were not prepared to face the Hitleresque, jackbooted thugs. We did not even contemplate that this evil existed.

That said, has DU changed? Hell yes! We are exhausted. We are tired, we are angry. We see the destruction of the American way of life, the middle class is on the verge of extinction, Our civil rights and civil liberties are eroding as fast as the next King Bush signing statement and we, the patriots are angry. Discourse at DU is not as polite as it was in an earlier time. And it shouldn't be. We are at a tipping point in the short history of this experiment in representative Democracy and polite duologue is no longer adequate to save our country.

The corporate whores that occupy political office, be they Republican't or Democratic have sold our country out for personnel gain. The system is broken! When we can pass laws banning cell phone use in cars but can't pass laws protecting your identity, when the jails are full on people who commit victemless crimes but corporate criminals can "settle out of court" by paying tax deductible money to get out of jail free, something is terribly wrong.

Has DU changed? Hell yes! BUT! I go here several times a day. I have done this for about six years. Why? Because I can still get the "fair and balanced" news here faster than anywhere else. I can also get evaluation of the news faster than anywhere else and, if someone is full of shit, it will only be a matter of minutes before someone calls bullshit, and backs it up with fact. I don't know anywhere else you can find that.

Yes, DU has changed. I love it now more than ever!

Peace,
Bud

[marions ghost]

83. EXCELLENT points

:applause:

We Liberals may well be angrier now, and in some ways that's good. But also gotta keep it focused against our real enemies--the corporate criminals and their whores.

[SammyWinstonJack]

111. !

:applause: :applause:

[Tiggeroshii]

11. There are many people I admire who are long deceased.

I'm still working on trying to emulate the positive aspects of their personality, or what I knew of their personality. I want to do the things I think they'll be proud of. That involves valuing humanity. If they were to grade me today, or many other days, I believe I would get an F.

Frankly I did not realize that inhumanity was incumbent in me, and I suppose DU has helped me acknowledge that in myself. Might I have the same display of humanity for the recently deceased whom I know or do not know, as I would those people I cherish: that inhumanity may evolve into something I respect.

Thanks guys.

[Broken_Hero]

17. Great, heartfelt post.....:) nt

[acmejack]

53. There are many who made DU what it was who are no longer with us.

And not by choice. I would suggest that there are a set of dual standards as to what is permitted here. Some are permitted, ahem, somewhat more latitude than others. The roster of tomb stoned posters, posters who added much to this forum and granted it much of that which it had that we now lament the loss of, is a long, and I would dare say, in many cases, distinguished list. Think of the names which no longer appear here for matters of competing egos, the reader may decide whose.

[kick_them_hard]

12. You right Will,

For a while now I have noticed nothing but smear and vile coming out of DU. We should be getting ready to be kicking neocon's asses and hardly any mention of upcoming races, whats happening, just slam the Dems you dont think is Liberal enough. I hate it. This site is horible now. Like the trolls and hate mongers took over. No offense, but this site reminds me more of a Socialist Party than a Democratic Party. Slam me all you want. I dont give a shit. This site needs a new makeover.

[WilliamPitt]

13. Nothing wrong with well-meaning Socialists

if they practice what they preach.

This is a room full of anonymous fake-ass tough guys talking shit.

[kick_them_hard]

Will, so you think having

the Socialist Party and also the Communist Party involved with Dems? This is a new one to me.

[WilliamPitt]

25. Involved with the Dems?

No. Nice strawman, tho.

[LostinVA]

62. WTF are you talking about?

I can tell you pretty much know zip about the DSA because of what you said. The Democratic Party needs Democratic Socialists, or they would lose elections. The DSA has always supported the Dems.

Nice stirring. And, what a nice example of proving Will right. You are a divider and a shit stirrer. And you are now on Ignore.

Jesus.

[Buzz Clik]

86. Indeed. We have lost the Greens. Are we driving away others?

[LostinVA]

61. Excuse me, I'm a member of the DSA, and we are

committed 100% to Progressive efforts. Like the Democratic party is SUPPOSED to be. That is why I vote Dem. What exactly are you saying? Hmmm?

[Jo March]

150. Alert is your friend

Ignore is your friend, too.

If someone breaks the rules, then use the handy-dandy alert function.

If you encounter someone who isn't breaking any rules but is just an asshole, then put them on Ignore. Too many times we add to the smear and vile by responding to "trolls and hatemongers."

Don't feed the trolls. We have the ability to Alert, Ignore and hide threads. Use them.

Peace to you, kick_them_hard.

[silverweb]

14. Take it easy, Will.

I remember the early days, too, and I agree that there have been plenty of changes, both good and bad. With the kind of membership expansion DU's experienced over the years, don't you think that was inevitable?

I had to go looking for the "vitriol" you referred to, because I'm conditioned to just skimming past that stuff and barely even notice it. Yes, it's sad and disappointing. Yes, the threads where people leap from civil disagreement into personal attacks are disturbing and upsetting. But people are people, with all their warts, and that's what they do a lot of the time.

As one of our original DU gurus, your oversight and input are greatly respected, Will. Some will read this thread and reflect on behaving badly, resolving to be kinder and more fair in the future. Others will blow your words off and continue to be rude assholes. Meanwhile, we all have the ability to filter what we respond to here at DU and elsewhere.

DU is still one of the best communities on Al Gore's Internets and I'd long since have been completely barking insane without it. Despite our family squabbles, let's never forget what it means to all of us. It hasn't changed that much.

[WilliamPitt]

16. Maybe

I find it amazingly odd that someone like Steve Irwin (egads!) would inspire conversations like this.

Take a long, slow cruise through the thread I put up there. If you come back and tell me that it has always been like that, I'll ask the mods to delete this thread, and I'll apologize for making (another) mess.

But I don't think I'm wrong.

[silverweb]

31. Apologize? Why?

For saying what you believe and feel?

No, Will. I cruised back through the other thread, although not long or slow. My very efficient filters quickened the pace, as they always do, so that I skimmed through the posts I didn't like. I did notice that the same people whose threads and posts I routinely skip were among those who posted crap in that thread, as they usually do. That's why I routinely skip them.

But if we are to remain an on-line community that does not censor free speech within the parameters of our posted rules, then we have to allow things that offend us sometimes. The best I can recommend is shunning those posters and denying them the attention they crave. They've always been around and they always will be. If they break the rules, they'll get tombstoned or banned or whatever. Otherwise, ignore them.

With regard to Steve Irwin himself, like you I simply do not understand how anyone could find an unkind thing to say about the man. He knew his work was dangerous but he obviously loved it, and he made great contributions to his field and to educating people about the wild. He will be missed and mourned by many. That's all we need to know and appreciate.

Maybe I've become a little too detached as I've aged and that's why I'm not reacting the same way as you have, Will. But please, don't upset yourself further. Focus on the many, many good and worthy people and constructive discussions here, and filter out the rest.

You may not be entirely wrong about a deterioration in quality, but that doesn't change the underlying rock-solid value of this place and its people. And you must not apologize for saying what you see and feel, especially when you do so with love and concern.

I have to go to sleep now. I hope you get some rest, too.

Namaste, Will. Namaste and goodnight, everyone.

[jazzjunkysue]

54. Agreed. I wasn't here at the beginning, but I need this place. Warts

and all.

I just skip the emotionally irate posts. People are angry and this is an anonymous venting opportunity. I think it serves a purpose as long as we understand that we're grown ups and it's ok if everyone doesn't validate our huge, important opinions.

I was one of the very few to poo-poo the trumped up Duke Lacrosse "rape" case, and got my hat handed to me. Now, it seems I was right. Not at all a simple case of racial attack, as many here ranted and raved.

The important thing is we're all learning, and that sure as hell won't happen in the newspapers or on network news.

[Mythsaje]

15. I was a bit stunned by it myself...

Of course, being the kind of person I am, I sat down and wrote a short tribute to the man and his contributions. It seemed a bit more...worthwhile...than arguing with a bunch of assholes.

I mean to transcend politics on occasion. (And no, for those of you who may or may not have read Joel Rosenberg's Guardians Of the Flame series--that doesn't mean sticking my thumb in someone's eye). :D

Though I will admit it's occasionally tempting.

[and-justice-for-all]

18. We may all be in the same boat...

but some people are going to paddle a little differently then every oneselse...

I find it tragic, but I cant really say that I am truamtized by Irwin's passing. He was an Animal lover and thats important to me, he was also an educator.

If one person feels different about the order and express that to a degree that you dont like then I dont think the problem is with the person who isnt as affected by as you are. There is also no reason for people on DU to pull out a Coultergiest(9/11 Widows)remark either, the choice of different words can express the same feelings and not come off as harsh rhetoric...

If I am not directly affected, I dont post or make comment..That energy needs put into more important issues at hand and the passing is Mr. Irwin is not relative to me. The media does not need to spend weeks on the topic either, "He is gone and this is what and how it happened, end of story." The over hyped part of this tradgedy is what gets under alot of peoples skin...

THANKS STEVE IRWIN, YOU DID GREAT THINGS FOR THE ANIMAL WORLD AND I FOR ONE APPRECIATE THAT!!

[bling bling]

19. The DU I remember was a lot more credible.

I can't count how many times I see outright misinformation/lies posted about some of our Dem Reps. Hillary Clinton comes to mind. It's disgusting what people post about her but what makes me feel disheartened and disappointed is that only about .00001% of the posters here bother to point out the lies they see. And many of the posters just parrot those lies in other threads. Does NOBODY fact check anymore before making wild accusations?

That did not used to be the case. People couldn't get away with that crap a couple of years ago when I first joined. You lied, you were CALLED ON IT immediately. Even the people who didn't like Clinton had enough integrity to not put up with others making false accusations and bullshit lying posts about her.

Clinton's just one example that springs to mind. I'm not trying to make this thread about her. It's about credibility. And the lack of it here.

edited because it's late and I'm grammar challanged.

[demobabe]

36. This is true

Nowadays, if you call someone on their incorrect information, you're drilled into the ground for suggesting they could possibly be wrong. Literally. It's as if there is a Flat Earth Squad here to pound people into submission. What happened?

[bling bling]

52. You're right about pounding.

On some threads there almost seems to be a concerted effort to bully people into thinking a certain way.

[Omphaloskepsis]

41. Oh, please.

Let me take this opportunity to request data on your .00001% claim. I'm cool with Wikipedia.

"Does NOBODY fact check anymore before making wild accusations?"
That sounds true.

[bling bling]

51. Oh brother.

What a disappointing response. Your subject line had me hoping that it would be a post that lent itself to some sort of discussion/debate or something about my post. Did you seriously not get my point?

But whatever.

Hopefully most other people will undestand what I was trying to say instead of getting hung up on something so trivial. But just for you and any other literally minded folks, replace that sentence where I used a fake percentage to represent an idea with the words "hardly anybody" or "very few" or something along those lines.

Feel better?

[BlueCollar]

20. I have watched

as DU has changed. It was inevitable...but it is still the best source of information and I have to filter the tone of the rhetoric from the content.

If it weren't for the DU I'd be very frustrated.

[Mythsaje]

21. I posted my "Saying Goodbye to a Giant"

on my Yahoo group and received a reply from an Aussie member who told me that it moved her to tears. He's an icon down there.

We'd all do well to think of that before we saying something cruel about someone like him.

[cboy4]

22. I can accept disagreement over immigration, Israel-Palestine, Lieberman,

and some of the other issues that divide progressives/democrats/non-troll DUers.

Fair enough that we disagree.....too bad that there have been such nasty threads recently about these issues, but fine, that's life.

However, I will never put up with people mocking the deaths of other decent human beings, and I will strongly lash out.

I have never seen so much happiness about death, and I've been here since 2002.

It's nauseating.

[demobabe]

38. I STILL haven't seen what you're talking about

Now go look up the Strom Thurmond threads if you want to see people here celebrate about death!

[cboy4]

43. You just said you haven't seen what I'm talking about concerning people

celebrating death, yet you direct me to threads where people celebrate death.

Therefore, I guess you really DO see what I'm talking about.

Where's the confusion, besides inside your head? :shrug:

[muriel_volestrangler]

57. The implication is that demobabe did not consider Strom Thurmond

a "decent human being". She doesn't have to be confused.

[cboy4]

60. I know what she means and she knows that I was being

sarcastic.

[muriel_volestrangler]

70. Oops - sorry, I don't always detect that

and I've found it particularly difficult in one or two divisive DU issues.

[buddhamama]

23. DU hasn't changed

i remember when Reagan died...

the one thing i don't get is why?

Vitriol leveled against Reagan is completely understandable...

I don't get it in the case of Irwin.

[WilliamPitt]

26. I'm pretty sure I went a little wild

when Reagan died.

The man was instrumental in the creation of Saddam, Osama, Iraq, Afghanistan, etc. I'm not happy with myself for it, but I can at least defend my reasons.

This Irwin thing? Mystifies me.

[buddhamama]

47. mystified is an appropriate word

to describe my reaction to the reaction of others.

[LostinVA]

63. Mystifies me, too --

[mtnsnake]

79. There's only one explanation for me that takes the mystery out of it:

MOLES

I don't understand how anyone who shares Democratic values could ever so shamefully spit on Steve Irwin's soul like what was done here yesterday...unless most of those people are just well-placed moles who are out to embarrass, divide, and ruin the forum.

If they're not moles...and this is the kind of people who are attracted to this place nowadays...then this place is in worse trouble than either of us could ever imagine.

When I first came here, I came here because I thought DU represented what mainstream Democratic America wanted. Either the moles are succeeding, or DU is becoming a shadow of its former self. Very disappointing.

[elehhhhna]

107. Will, the Irwin thing, like the John Mark Karr thing, the Natalie Holloway

thing, etc, ad nauseum, is just another organized distraction. It works in the MSM and it works on DU. If we can be tied down, ground down, disstracted and baited over the Death du Jour, breastfeeding, abortion, etc. we spend less time on core issues.

Just say no & keep your eyes on the prize.

Would you mind appealing to the DU powers that be about a zero-tol policy through November? WE ARE INFESTED, Will. Hell, I'm hitting ALERT more often than REC lately.

It's time to vote some so-called DUers off this island.

[ScreamingMeemie]

27. Bingo!

As one who moderated during the Primary Wars and saw the very worst of DUers at their angriest, I would say that the quality of the flamewar may have denigrated but the place remains the same, just larger..with louder idiots. :hi:

[buddhamama]

46. you received my excuse note, right?

`cause i had one. it read: 'I am a passionate person who is fighting for change and my candidate________ is the only person who is gonna make that happen.' ;)

[ScreamingMeemie]

49. It was the best excuse ever!!

And I would have accepted it, if my candidate ___________ wasn't the better choice. :rofl: :hi:

[Hav]

24. .

I'd make the guess that it's even worse whenever a prominent Republican dies who was despised here.
Of course, the question still remains what Irwin did to deserve it.
Some days, we are just not better than our counterparts on the far right and it's just an illusion to believe that we are above them. They believe the same.

On the other side, the benevolence and passion of the large majority of DUers makes up for these bad days.

[WilliamPitt]

28. Australia plans state funeral for Irwin

...if the family wants it.

"Parliament took a break from the business of running the country to pay tribute to Irwin, whose body was being flown home Tuesday from Cairns. No funeral plans were announced but state Premier Peter Beattie said Irwin would be afforded a state funeral if his family agreed."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14675529/

I have to get some work done (yuk, up this early, long week ahead), so I'm leaving this bedlam alone from here out. Maybe.

Later.

[marions ghost]

106. ordinary people

don't usually get state funerals. Obviously Steve touched hearts. Whether you liked him or not, he had an impact. He was a symbol of defeating fear in life, and in death a symbol of our true vulnerability. Of course he knew and accepted the risks he took. Somewhere Steve is laughing...at the 'wake up call' he got from the ray.

I am reminded of the death of Princess Diana. She was symbolic also -- a very public person who overcame her claustrophobic situation and tried to do more with her life than most. People identified with her frailty and her strength. She seemed all too human. But like Steve, she had armies of critics and people who blamed her for stepping outside the box. She had to "deserve" her fate.

I don't think it's too unusual that the same sort of conflicts about a "larger than life" person like this would take place at DU upon their death. It's wearying, I agree with that, but it gives people a chance to feel whatever they feel and express it. These days feeling anything at all is a definite plus.

[symbolman]

29. Yeah... out of control

I even remember so far back as to when we were friends..

Until your lion bit me.. :)

[ReadTomPaine]

30. I certainly do remember...

but DU still matters, Will. It does.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

32. Speculative aside.

It's way beyond politics, into the murk of the subconscious.
It's a way to deny our own mortality.

A man is stabbed to death by a fish.

We want to blame people for dying, for doing things
that bring about their own demise.

That means if we avoid doing those things, or similar
risk-taking behavior, we won't die, we'll
live forever.

A man is stabbed to death by a fish.
It's his own fault.
Therefore we won't die because we don't wrestle
sharks & alligators or pose a threat to stingrays.

If I mourn him I will lose the distance between
him & me, between the dead and the immortal.

Carry on.

[bling bling]

67. Oh, that's interesting.

I enjoy psychological vantage points.

Good post. Interesting to think about it that way.

[marions ghost]

89. exactly

it's a scary world, a big ocean where anything can happen. There is often a lack of respect for those perceived as making themselves "too vulnerable." This is because people cannot accept that we are ALL vulnerable. Everyday. Everywhere. You can do your best to avoid danger, but you cannot guarantee it, no matter how much insurance you buy. To live in constant fear is dangerous too (look what the fearmongers have done to this country).

Steve Irwin was a symbol of fearlessness. An archetypal symbol of man overcoming fear. He worked with dangerous animals in order to understand them.

Did he "fail" by dying? In some people's limited vision, the answer would be yes.

[qanda]

33. It was never like this before

Sometimes we faulted the mods for being a little heavy-handed, but at least they kept this place civil. I don't know what's going on. If there were one or two people jumping from thread to thread pissing on them then they were considered trolls and were banned accordingly. Now, they just keep building up their post counts and we have to endure it.

[FedUpWithIt All]

34. I am pretty new, but...

I have been reading this site for a VERY long time. It is, like any message board, a cross section of society. The site grows and so does the variety of personalities that post here.

[B Calm]

39. We have members who even belittle Mike Malloy! One said

he was the Lefts version of ANN COULTER! Malloy spoke truth to power day in, day out and this is the respect he gets!

[lildreamer316]

40. I could not agree more.

and what really really sucks is that I cannot say what I think has happened here plainly, because it would immediately be deleted and I would probably get in a decent amount of trouble. But, it is the truth and anyone who cannot see what has happened here has not been paying attention. It's really too bad; because all of the people who made this site what it once was think it may be their fault,when it's not.........I really wish I could speak freely. Oh well.
I'll just keep my peace I guess so that I can continue to be able to read and interact with those I want to.
Peace to all.

[annabanana]

42. I think it looks worse than it is.

If we had a "sifting" searcher, that could show you all the members who didn't jump on these threads, or which separated those who would blame the victim. . . I think you would see that far more members came in on the side of the angels.

[last_texas_dem]

44. I feel like I do

but, in a way, it's all open to interpretation. I mean, maybe it's just that my frame of mind has changed with time, and it has caused me to think of DU differently.

When I initially joined DU, a month or so after September 11, more posters seemed more optimistic and engaged; there was generally a more positive vibe. I've never been an avid poster, but I loved just reading here for the perspectives and the information it brought me. Over time, and more and more with time, there seem to be more and more posters dominating discussions who are rude or pushy and often single-minded about certain issues. If you aren't an argumentative person (and yeah, I guess some would wonder why someone who isn't argumentative would even want to be on a discussion board) as I don't tend to be, it makes it much more intimidating to even consider posting much. It just makes me wonder if some of the negative and rude people have caused the departure of some of the more polite folks, and caused the forums to have a totally different vibe.

But yeah, I could be all wrong; it's just perception, so it's really not worth arguing about.

Although honestly, the Irwin death response really didn't seem that revealing to me. It seemed like about 95-percent or so of poster saying positive things to 5-percent or so saying negative, which really isn't too surprising. Remember there were even flamewars here over Laura Branigan's death!(Was "Gloria" really that offensive of a song?!) People on the public stage make impressions on people, and sometimes they're negative. I don't agree with trashing the dead while the corpse is still warm, though. I've stayed out of the Irwin threads because his death had about as much effect on me as the dozen or so deaths I'd be informed of if I took a scan of the obituary page in the local paper. I'm sorry for the losses of any family members and others who knew the guy personally and were effected by his death, but I'm not going to feign feelings of personal sadness that aren't there. Many wonderful people who have made positive contributions to the world and the lives of others leave this world every day and go virtually unnoticed by the population at large.

[Apollo11]

45. Long live free speech!

The first thing I would do to raise the level of discussion on DU would be to abolish the animated "puke" emoticon. Seriously.

I don't really understand what WilliamPitt is complaining about. This is a Forum where we come to exchange ideas and opinions. Different folks have different opinions. Why would you expect to agree with everything you read here?

Please forgive us if sometimes some of us get tired of the media obsession with celebrities. It is a dangerous obsession that is destroying our sense of balance and perspective. The media spends so much time talking about one guy who used to be on TV and then died in an accident, and OK so it was an accident but this particular person did seem to have a habit of taking risks that most people would avoid.

And at the same time every week hundreds of civilians are killed in Iraq, in sectarian violence resulting from political instability caused by an invasion ordered by our leaders, who are supposed to be accountable to the American (and British) people. In other words: we share responsibility for the deaths of innocent civilians: including countless children. But because they are not "TV stars" or "celebrities" - their deaths don't command anything like the same level of attention.

It's enough to make you want to use the "puke" emoticon ....

Here's Jon Stewart on The Daily Show - 3 weeks ago ...
"Let me explain something to you about the algebra, if you will, of cable news: Three-year war in Iraq is less than 30-day-old bombing of Lebanon, which is less than explosive Gatorade on a plane, all of which is chickens**t compared to a break in a 10-year-old murder case. Yes, apparently a suspect has been named in the case of the killing of JonBenet Ramsey, or, as she is known to cable news – "oxygen.""

PS - there are clear procedures for reporting inappropriate posts. If you think someone has crossed the line - contact your local moderator ...

[LynneSin]

48. It's not the same place we came to back in 2001

That's for sure.

People here have forgotten who the enemy is - it's not each other on the board here or a damn crocodile hunter - it's the republican party.

Sometimes I swear some of us (even myself) act like Gnats with ADHD

:grr:

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

66. Gnats with ADHD... I like that!

Shiny Thing! Shiny Thing!

[donheld]

55. Will the whole world is changing, and not for the better

It's sad that it's even making DU uglier.

[H2O Man]

56. I tend to agree. n/t

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

58. I was thinking the same thing yesterday. Agreed, totally.

It's a crying shame. So many hateful people.

[bdamomma]

102. too many hateful and meanspirited people

no one has respect for one another, well may be some of us have respect for others.

[NNN0LHI]

64. It took Steve Irwin for you to figure this out Will?

Who you kidding? You ain't no slow learner. Come on now. Quit pulling my fecking leg.

Don

[muriel_volestrangler]

68. No, that thread looks just what I'd expect from DU since I've been here

from 2003. I'm very surprised you think it's different.

You start a thread saying you're amazed by DUer's reactions. Most people on the thread agree with you. That's normal on DU - we can create a long discussion about DU's reaction to some news event, and then even discussions on the discussions, like this thread.

Some people on the thread accuse trolls of being responsible for the comments they don't like, and mutter about low post counts, and so on. Again, perfectly normal behaviour for DU.

Some people disagree with your position, and ask for links to the offending comments, saying they don't believe it. There are comments like "go and find them yourself", and arguments about whether DU rules allow links to the offending posts or not. I've seen those kind of arguments many, many times here.

There's little active trashing of Irwin in the thread you link to - some people point out things they didn't like about him, or that lots of people die, and why should one person get so much attention. That's a frequent DU argument, too. The more anti-Irwin comments on other threads seem to revolve around his treatment of animals, saying it was harrassment of them, the baby incident and whether it was irresponsible, his apparent wealth, and his support for a right wing politician. All these are typical reasons for criticism on DU - animal rights, parental responsibility, the rich, and the right wing.

How did you expect your thread to develop? Did you expect most people to disagree with you? Are you saying DU is too much of an echo chamber these days?

[mmonk]

69. I do.

I don't understand exactly what's going on.

[ProfessorGAC]

71. Selective Memory

Mauudlin sentimentality is the muse of hack writers. I think you need to rethink this position.
The Professor

[Buzz Clik]

73. Err.... that was intentional irony, right?

[ProfessorGAC]

75. No

And, i was speaking to Will. This place is the same as it has always been. One topic pushes Will's button, and suddenly we're nostalgic for the "good old days" when DU was utopia.

Well, that's just maudlin nonsense.
The Professor

[Buzz Clik]

82. So, this place has always been a seething mass of vitriol?

... or was your irony unintentional?

[ProfessorGAC]

84. For The 2nd Time. . .

. . .i was not being ironic. Intentional or otherwise, and yes i know what irony is. A set of threads on one topic does not make it a seething mass of vitriol, either, so you would be wrong about that as well.

I am sorry that in your experience at DU (and since i've been here since the 2nd month, i'll assume it is more limited than mine) you haven't found that there are those of us who wholly reject sweeping generalizations and two dimensional thinking. You are guilty of both, as was Will in the OP.
The Professor

[Buzz Clik]

85. Interesting, considering your opening salvo:

"Mauudlin sentimentality is the muse of hack writers."

And you reject generalizations and lack of vision?

We'll write this one off as unintentional irony and general nastiness.

[ProfessorGAC]

119. Go Ahead

If you're willing to be wrong, that's ok by me. It was neither ironic nor nasty. The OP was loaded with maudlin nonsense. That's not a generalization. It was a specific observation about a specific topic. That, by definition, is not generalized. Therefore, yes, i reject generalizations, especially one as wrong as the OP. Perhaps a perusal of your dictionary is in order, since you seem to be struggling with the words, "maudlin" and "generalization".

This place has always been a hotbed of strong emotions and opinions. It has never (NEVER) been the place of lockstep serenity. To think otherwise is ridiculous.

And, if you wish to reject the idea that maudlin sentimentality is NOT the muse of hack writers, then go ahead. You'd be wrong about that as well.
The Professor

[trotsky]

103. You are absolutely correct, Prof.

You have an annoying habit of that, don't you? ;-)

I've been on DU since January 2001 and have no memory of it ever being a serene place where everyone got along. In fact, the Irwin vitriol should have easily been expected, since some of the biggest flamewars in the HISTORY of DU have been at least tangentially related to animal rights & the "exploitation" thereof.

[Buzz Clik]

72. I agree 100%

This place is becoming the Left Wing of Freeper Palace.

[NoPasaran]

74. After all this Steve Irwin stuff

I dread to think what this place will be like when some lowlife plugs Dog the Bounty Hunter.
:scared:

[High Plains]

160. Can't wait for that.

[TheFriedPiper]

76. I agree, when did people on DU get so overly sensitive?

I waited on my old slow laptop to open a new window so I could see what thread was so awful, but all it went to was some more crap about the Crocodile Hunter.

Sorry he died, but, it really is not a great concern of mine. Posts like this are a bigger threat to DU than the CH stuff.

DU being obsessed with the CH is just like the media being obsessed with a single missing rich girl.

It seems silly to have a debate about it. Even sillier to have a debate about the debate.

[LWolf]

77. Ok.

I attribute it to growth. Whenever organizations get big, they get more dysfunctional. Smaller = more cohesive, and, in my opinion, better.

Of course, that doesn't really reflect the larger world, though. DU now reflects the larger world.

Too many of those I enjoyed talking to are long gone; they died, or they were banned, or they didn't like the "feel" any longer and just left.

[datasuspect]

78. everything was SOOOO much better in the past

maybe it was, but golly jeepers, this IS the internet. there's a long history of rotten shit in BBSes, USENET, message boards, discussion groups.

nostalgia is pretty much a waste of time.

but i wasn't here since (GASP!!!) 2001! 5 years is almost in the mists of antiquity!

[DemonFighterLives]

80. I do see some differences here

I seem to remember much more agreement on things and the disruptors were tombstoned.
That said, I don't know why I am in this thread. I looked at about half of the thread in question and didn't see the Super vitriol. It is common on DU to debate all aspects of a story. I guess I liked Steve Irwin, but a poster mentioning that he had a Camera man in front of the Ray and he was swimming above is nothing to get upset about.

If I was a 7 foot Ray, I might take offense to that as well and find it a little spooky. Not the brightest move in the world- though I'm no wild animal expert.

Have a Happy DU Day!
:dem:

[texpatriot2004]

81. I remember nt

[opihimoimoi]

96. I remember the EARLY Fun Days , The Days of serious discussions,

etc.

Since those incipient times the DU has gathered many new perspectives...of varied stripes. Thus DU has become a sort of Microcosm of Humanity with its Negative/Positive Polarities, ..... often disguised.

DU exists, it is a tool, a refuge, a place to come together, a place for Sanity and Reason, etc etc but only if we wish it. Others come to torpedo us with crap, often undiluted. But DU is so strong...we fend off the crap to advance the Human Spirit in our own limited way.

Warts and All, this Place Rocks.

Will, you are a Beacon of Hope and Reason...keep smiling and

Come, we go drink....laugh, eat, sing, walk on the beach shoe-less to feel the soothing cool sand....forget the Pubs, they are Bad News like Warts.

[intheflow]

88. Will, I don't usually read your stuff.

I'm not a fan of your writing style, and there just so much else to read on DU and the web in general I can afford to pick and chose what I read.

But I'm giving this post a big K&R. Simply written and eloquently put, you are right on the money here.

I don't know WTF people are about with Irwin's death. I mean, I wasn't a fan of his, either, but I certainly didn't hold any malice towards the man. Nothing about him screamed "Repuke!" (rather hard anyway, b/c he was Australian, but you know... conservative). But judging from the reaction on DU, you'd think he was Cheney's or Rove's lap dog, undermining the Constitution and stealing candy from babies.

I am a little disturbed by the amount of energy being spent on his death, the endless "Jon Benet/Missing Blonde of the Week" style coverage, both in the CM and on DU. I feel this debate is a distraction from the real work at hand we try to advance here on DU-that of getting our country back from the robber barons who have stolen it. I fear that these discussions are being fed by disruptors, designed to make DU look as stupid and petty as Free Republic and Faux News.

Anyway, thanks, Will, for being a voice of reason. I remember the DU you remember--and want it back again!

[Arkham House]

91. The creeping coarseness and stupidity of our culture...

...is affecting DU, as well...alas. But it is happening, and even we here at the left end of the spectrum aren't immune... But yeah--the reactione--some of them--to Irwin's death was astonishing, and disheartening. But I think 98% of DUers are good people...

[Craig3410]

92. Eh, same thing happened when Ken Lay died.

I know it's nowhere near the same thing (Steve Irwin didn't screw over millions), but I suggested we put away political differences for a short while.

I was ripped to shreds.


:(

[InvisibleTouch]

93. Seems like it's always been a contentious place.

While it's true that people are unhappier and under more stress than they were 6 years ago (I know I am!), and understandably tempers are shorter and patience has run out, I'm not sure that they're that much nastier or more callous now than they ever were.

I got here around the 2004 primary season, and remember being shocked at all the viciousness that was flying around between the supporters of different candidates. After Kerry won the nomination, the mods had to step in and forbid the rampant attacks on him, lest we do the Republicans' jobs for them. No wonder we never get anything accomplished - everyone's fighting about the details rather than joining forces for the overall goal. Vile though they may be, the rethugs put aside their minor disagreements and rally behind one banner - maybe less out of true loyalty than out of sheer self-interest, but they do it. If that's pointed out, someone will inevitably say, "Well, we're progressives and individualists, and we don't march in lockstep." I'm about as anti-conformist as anyone you're likely to meet, but when the goals are so vital, a little bit of lockstep wouldn't do us any harm now and again. Does anyone deny that our lives would be better if the Dems were in power again? That is the goal - but instead people are attacking each other and the elected, formerly-elected, and hopefully-to-be-elected Democrats because you can't find a one of them whose voting record we will agree with 100 percent.

I've been really taken aback by some of the ugly things people have said about fellow Dems, and it disgusts me to this day - Clinton-bashing (both of 'em), Kerry-bashing, Dean-bashing, you name it. Then there are the frequent lounge threads of "my taste in music is superior to your taste in music," and the like ... so is it really such a great stretch to see people dancing on the grave of a guy who dedicated his life to protecting animals and the environment? After all, he may not have done every little thing exactly the way some people would prescribe.

I've had the experience many times in my life, of coming upon a group where my initial response is: "Oh wow, a group of like-minded individuals! Incredible!" And I'm invariably disappointed. There is no utopia, no perfect community. DU is the same way. I've found that the only way to avoid getting kicked in the teeth again and again, figuratively speaking, is to stay on the fringes and not invest too much of one's own identity in the group. To not expect too much, and not to get too attached to an ideal. Because the ideal doesn't exist, and never did. Even here.

BTW, I have great respect and compassion for the mods who are keeping this whole mess from getting completely out of hand. I've been a moderator (not here), and it's a thankless and stressful job. I know they're keeping up as best they can. And with all its faults and problems, I maintain that DU makes a vital contribution to the world, and does offer support to those who are wandering in the wilderness. You'll inevitably find people who attack you, but you'll also find people who stand by you. Enjoy it for what it is, but don't get nostalgic for what it never was and never can be.

[JitterbugPerfume]

94. Yes Will,I remember

and I mourn for it .

[Skinner]

95. I probably should stay out of this thread...

...but somebody needs to stick up for DU. Might as well be me. I'll be brief.

1. Over the weekend I read an interesting book called "Stumbling on Happiness." Its central theme is that human beings are extraordinarily bad at accurately recalling their feelings in the past, or imagining their feelings in the future. Our brains are wired in such a way that we are not capable of remembering *everything*. Study after study shows that we have very selective memory, tending to only remember the things that left a strong positive or negative impression at the time. The 99% percent of other stuff is simply forgotten, so when we think back our imagination fills in the blanks to create a memory that is almost never an accurate reflection of how you were thinking at the time. I suppose that it's a good thing that people tend to remember the good about DU, rather than the bad. But the truth is that this place has had more than its share of bad stuff since day one.

2. I didn't read the thread about Steve Irwin, as I was out of town. But I'm not surprised that some people weren't completely positive. I guess I find it more surprising that people continue to expect that DU will conform to their expectations, after five years of unrelenting evidence that it will not do so. But hey, we're human -- we're like that.

3. Read this: http://journals.democraticunderground.com/Skinner/3

That is all.

[Buzz Clik]

99. Ok. That's a good reality check.

However, Pitt's lament is well taken.

There is no need for an institutional change, revamping moderators' rules, or even simple reminders to be civil. But, bemoaning the large number of posters and threads that applauded the death of someone simply because we don't like his politics was well timed.

[Skinner]

105. Of course it is distasteful to see people dancing on someone else's grave.

In that respect, I agree. I think most people are bothered by this type of behavior.

But let's be honest here: This is not a new thing. It happens every time a prominent person dies, and it has happened every time a prominent person has died for the entire life of this website. (Along with the obligatory "what have we become?" hand-wringing.)

[Buzz Clik]

117. Agreed, and your perspective helped. Thanks. (n/t)

[DemonFighterLives]

122. Skinner, I have figured it all out!

The wife tells me there is a full moon tonight.
:freak:

[Lone_Star_Dem]

125. That was a great read

Both your post and the book.

I did enjoy Gilbert's Stumbling on Happiness."

It made me happy, but not as happy as I had imagined it would. However, as I reflect back on the reading of it I tend to fixate on only the good and more humorous passages of the book. :D

[Hippo_Tron]

127. I was about to post a link to reference that journal entry of yours

Good thing you beat me to it.

[Nickster]

130. Excellent, that was the post I was searching for. I remember that you

tackled the "everything has changed" argument more than once before. That rearview mirror always makes things look so much better.

[OzarkDem]

154. Great food for thought

DU has grown tremendously and, like the number of intelligent, well meaning posters, the number of rude, inconsiderate ones has also grown.

Perhaps DU is reaching its nadir so to speak and the Dem community is tired of being embarrassed by freeperish behavior and beginning to crave a change for a more respectable forum for discourse. Its the natural progression of things.

Perhaps that's what DU is meant to evolve into - a liberal version of Free Republic.

[boolean]

98. Stop flame baiting all of us with this fucking melodrama.

Shame on YOU.

God. Talk about melodrama. "We deserve it all! Fascism terror etc!!!" My eyes are rolled so far in to the back of my head it hurts.

[Sammy Pepys]

100. This is the DU I've always known....

So if it started out as some place mildly civil and intellectaul, I've never known it that way. Doesn't mean I don't enjoy posting here, or that there aren't intellectually stimulating conversations here, but I would be somewhat amused if people were kidding themselves about the weight this place carries in the real world.

[dogday]

101. I don't think it is the disagreeing itself that has

changed, as there has always been a propensity for that...


It is the level of vitriol that has been inserted into the dialog of disagreeing that I see.

[ellie]

108. Yes, I do

Now I am routinely shocked by what some long-time members post (not you of course, others). Especially during the Israel-Lebanon bombing. I kept wondering if I had stumbled onto a parallel DU where, although the board looked the same and the posters had the same names, everything was radically different.

[ktlyon]

109. I have been hanging here as long anyone, it has changed

This place has grown and with it has come a more varied group of people. In the beginning we were all like minded people(most of whom have gone) that disagreed on minor points but came here with a spirit of getting and bring facts and information.

Now that we have become famous people come here for lots of other reasons, some to disrupt. One can participate here as long as you don't break the rules, descent is permitted, that is good, but not all posters are liberal dems I'm sure of that. I think some of them take great glee in getting us to respond to there foolish posts. We waste a lot of time responding because some could be real serious questions from a young person that is here to learn.

We must accept that change will occur and move with it. This still is the best place to keep up on the events of the day. All and I mean all the stories are posted here and discussed. There is no better place that I know of to get information. Skinner and others have a top quality design and this web site runs great.

So I know I will keep coming here and patiently wade through the volumes of information presented. I put my first person on ignore a few weeks ago and if necessary I will add a few more. But all and all this is a great site and I would like to personally thank you for your huge contribution and look forward to your insightful and stimulating commentary.

Keep Hope Alive
Best wishes
KL

edited because I still can't spell or type

[ContraBass Black]

110. I Do Not.

It was a long time before I was first flamed, but the character of the place was no different before it happened. I just hadn't managed to step on a hot-button issue or respond to an aggressive, abrasive poster. I saw the kind of anger and intensity of vitriol now going between Irwin enthusiasts and detractors hitting everyone in the face, and every major incident would invariably be followed by a "why isn't DU a nice place anymore?" thread, which would get a long list of "the trolls have infiltrated us" responses.

When I received my first personal attack, I was shocked and hurt. I wondered how the community I thought so highly of could turn so hostile toward me, and what had happened to the DU I loved. And then, I saw it happening to others, and remembered that the times that were truly abnormal were the ones when no one on DU appeared to be hurt, angry, or offended. The unpleasantness wasn't new, it was new to me.

There has never been a day when someone on DU didn't piss all over something or someone that I hold dear. I play video games, and some people here accuse video gamers of being worthless, antisocial slobs who "twiddle their joysticks" and corrupt children. I am a Christian, and some people here respond "curse those pedophillic, sexually repressed, fundamentalist hatemongers trying to force us to believe like they do! (aggregate paraphrase)" whenever a topic concerning Christians comes up. I believe in the human and cultural rights of Hispanic immigrants, and some here would declare me an Illegal Sympathizer while they speak of Latino men like a cockroach infestation. I am enraged by the unfair treatment and suspicion I sometimes receive from law enforcement, but some here advocate racial profiling at the airports, claiming that suicide bombers don't look like them and their children, so they shouldn't have to deal with the hassle.

I can't come to DU without getting offended. I can't argue on DU without somebody being rude. That's because the people on DU are just as human and ordinary as those we meet in person. We do not live in a gentle, well-behaved world, and people do not greet us with hugs and sunshine everywhere we go, out there or in here. DU is an open forum where people come for discussion, and people in general are not especially pleasant.


What happened to DU? It continued as it usually does.

[5X]

146. Best post ever, and the closest to the truth. n/t

[omega minimo]

153. The DU Rules advise us to have thick skin

"I can't come to DU without getting offended. I can't argue on DU without somebody being rude. That's because the people on DU are just as human and ordinary as those we meet in person. We do not live in a gentle, well-behaved world, and people do not greet us with hugs and sunshine everywhere we go, out there or in here. DU is an open forum where people come for discussion, and people in general are not especially pleasant."

DU Rules also say the Rules are based on "Respect."

There is more room there for moderation of posts that cross that line.

[Annces]

112. I think things like Irwin debate show we are good at disagreeing

with the republicans, but terrible at disagreeing with each other.

This is an opinion forum. If someone wants to post a thread where no one disagrees, maybe that should be stated in the OP or something.

Learning how to work out differences is important, and unfortunately usually gets done by the person that can best dominate.

[NashVegas]

113. I Can Remember a DU

Where a celebrity death wouldn't have spawned a brazillian acrimonious threads.

[neebob]

114. You mean the one where people didn't go all cyber-parental

and try to stop others from saying things they didn't like? Nope, sorry, I don't remember that DU. It's been like this as long as I've been here.

Pile of wretched, pile of awful, shame shame shame. It's a message board, for cripe's sake.

[goddess40]

115. The mods need to delete stuff like that

They deleted my post when I questioned if having 5 catholics on the supreme court was a bad idea - in light of the push from the church that excommunication was possible for not obeying church law. I thought it was a great topic that needed to be discussed but I guess I was wrong.
Which wasn't an empty threat as the great congressman Obey was refused communion not because he believes in pro-choice but because he upholds the law concerning abortion.

To bash some guy that only tried to do good in this world, a man with two small children that may some day read some of the vile crap people said about their father - that was okay. Could someone explain the difference to me?

edit:spelling

[Coventina]

116. Yes, I remember a DU that was welcoming and kind and full of thoughtful

posts.

Of course there were arguments and a sprinkling of jerks, but now......

Oh yes, I remember a very different DU.

[kentuck]

118. To tell you the truth....

I stopped reading the Irwin threads when it seemed to me to be nasty just for "nastiness" sakes. I accept that DU has changed only by degrees. We always had the same "nastiness" and vitriol but we just didn't have as much. I suppose that can be explained by the large number of people now posting.

However, I don't see the "Socialists" that some people talk about. I see Republican-lite more often than not. I don't see "progressive" ideas as much as I would like. I see us becoming an island to ourselves. No one is safe from expulsion if you don't agree with the convention of the moment. I try very hard not to get caught up in those types of discussions because they detract from the bigger picture, which is to defeat the radicals now in power.

There's more "noise" now than before. It's harder to be heard than in the past. Some people have learned very well how to propagandize - attack personally when all else fails. No ideas - just personal attacks. Enough navel gazing...Let's discuss real issues. Let the family and friends of Steve Irwin mourn in peace.

[Singular73]

120. This is why democrats lose elections.

Its frikken prime-time right now, day after labor day, the official beginning of the campaign march to November, and instead of looking at what we can do at a district-district level to get democrats elected, people are ripping each other apart over the Alligator guy lol.

Its too stupid to even discuss, to be honest.


Oh, and Mr Pitt, noone deserves fascism.

Thats like saying people "deserve" lung cancer. Tone down the demagoguing.

[Missy Vixen]

121. I'm not sure if things are different,

but I have more people on ignore right now than I have ever had since I came to DU in 2001. I don't know if it's me, or if it's the site.

I don't know how the mods and admins are doing it right now. I know how hard they work. I'm thinking of them. :hug:

Julie

[kentuck]

123. I have never put anyone on "ignore"..?

Why do we ignore people when we can just not respond to the BS??

[Missy Vixen]

124. That's your choice

>Why do we ignore people when we can just not respond to the BS??<

To put those I don't care to read on ignore is my choice.

Julie

[kentuck]

126. True.

That's your choice.

[Catherine Vincent]

128. I used to say that too.

But when you have these same characters trolling a specific topic with the same dumb ass comments, it gets on your nerves. I use the ignore feature on a few and I'm sure once Fitzgerald's investigation is settled, they'll be released out of catgirl's prison of ignore. :)

[ContraBass Black]

135. I never use ignore, because I'm afraid that once I start I won't

Have anything to read on DU anymore.

[Hippo_Tron]

129. I believe that our membership is around 100,000 right now

The reason that I'm not disturbed by this is because I can't possibly expect that out of 100,000 people, there won't be some who do distasteful things. Even if there are 100 DUers who are actively pissing on Irwin's grave, that is only .1% of the entire community. It just so happens that we focus on the .1% and not the other 99.9% of DU that does not engage in such behavior.

[patcox2]

131. Safety-nazi "progressives" equate safety and morality.

They think risk-taking is immoral and those who take risks, sinners.

I don't know why, but I lump them with a lot of the other vitriolic single-issue "progressives," militant feminists, Peta, those who go nuclear over child abuse, victims rights activists, PC speech police types, those who feel everyone as a right to never be offended, etc.

All share the sanctimony.

If they had their way life would be one giant nursery school, with no risk, no offense, no, well, no life, just sitting around with Barney.

[ms liberty]

132. In many respects, yes

I started coming here in early 2001, although I was a lurker and never posted until 2003 - hey, I was shy, what can I say?! While there has always been disagreement and (shall we say) frank discussion, it does seem...MEANER...than it once was. Like jazzjunkysue above, during the Duke lacrosse case I posted a few times - and I do mean a few - about information I saw as being inconsistent which raised questions in my mind. I was excoriated by some posters and accused of all sorts of things. It was really ugly what some people said to and about anyone who didn't automatically believe the alleged victim's story in it's entirety. After the few posts I made and the responses from people who felt they had to argue and trash every post they disagreed with, I just quit posting in those threads. It wasn't worth the stress and anger I was feeling. I've also seen it in other threads and other subjects,(I'm sure many here know at least one of those subjects!!) many of which I chose NOT to become part of the conversation, because it was obvious that there were some who were on a mission to hijack the discussion.

I think it is one of the things that disturbs me most. I don't have any problem with those who disagree and post their opinion, or become part of the discussion. It's that some feel the need to "stalk" a thread, a subject, or a person; they don't just have a discussion, they disrupt the discussion with mean, rude posts to anyone they disagree with. Their actions are agressively disruptive. Much of the time their posts are just below the level of rudeness that gets their posts deleted or gets them tombstoned. Sometimes they could be alerted on but a lot of DU'ers use ignore, or just ignore them instead - I've never used ignore, and I've only alerted once in the whole time I've been posting. But it seems that they are the ones who will alert on someone else in a heartbeat.
So it seems like they're getting away with stirring the stew of divisiveness. It can be really frustrating.

It's probably the main reason I have to take breaks away from DU for a few days at a time on a fairly regular basis. People like that have a dark unpleasantness, a negativity that sucks the goodness and light out of the soul, leaving behind anger and despair. They're only happy when others are unhappy. I'd rather not feed their addiction.

edited: deficient sentence construction detected and corrected!

[Nickster]

133. About 95,000 users as opposed to the beginning and you're surprised

that you're seeing a more vocal divergence of opinions? Really? The mods here remove people that get too crazy, but generally hearing different opinions, ideas, etc is useful. Not everyone is going to agree with you and sometimes just like real life...you'll hear ugly opinions and ideas. I'm kind of startled that you're so quick to put down DU easily. I think DU has been pretty darn good to you if you really sit back and think about it.

I'm kinda shocked by the outrage that the Crocodile Hunter brought here, but I read some of the different opinions and I can see both sides have some valid arguments. It's up to me to sift through the chaff to find the wheat, or not. I'm not lamenting the death of my favorite web site, not at all.

[omega minimo]

134. Tolerating too many disrepectful, abusive posters creates a mucky

environment for trolls to thrive.

[aikoaiko]

136. Diveristy + Passion = Conflict (among other things)

There is no way around it in organizational life. How that conflict gets resolved is the defining feature of all large organizations.

[FlaGranny]

137. This place has

been infiltrated, either that or some have lost their minds. I don't like it here any more. I really don't. Makes you ashamed to say you visit this site. I would not tell ANYONE I knew to check out this place.

[nadinbrzezinski]

138. Yes I remember a different place too

many of us old timers do

[ProfessorGAC]

141. I'm An Oldtimer. I Don't

Unless you mean all the moralizing and lecturing from hand-wringing DU'ers. And i logged on the first time in February of 2001. Can't get much more an "old timer" than that.

This place has always been like this.
The Professor

[PsN2Wind]

139. You gonna tell us to "Kiss your ass" again

Response to that was my first post when I said "I'm new here, do we go by seniority or in alphabetical order"?

[panzerfaust]

140. ad Hominum

Sadly, I must agree with you.

To me it seems that any disagreement here now rapidly descends to Argumentum ad Hominum - basically simple "Name Calling".

I've been with DU since 9-11, my partner was here before that. She will no longer post ANYTHING on DU - though she continues to read it daily - she just did not like always being attacked.

What is ironic, is that many of the things she posted and was attacked most strongly for (eg: the actual existence of Fascism, the connection of the * family with this, the deliberate mis-use of the press, manipulation of intelligence ...) are now seen as "received wisdom" on the Left.

Please recall, as Ben said (approximately) "Fascism should really be called 'Corporatism', for it is the fusion of the State with the Corparations"

The Croc Hunter was not our enemy ...

[Batgirl]

142. what would DU be without overreacting to the overreacters

People have stong feelings that I don't always agree with. DU is a self selected group of highly opionated people. Emotions run high, sometimes the thing we are fighting about isn't even really the thing we are fighting about. Sometimes people go balls out defending something they never actually felt that strongly about, but the more they are attacked the more they dig in their heels. Some people just have a contarian streak. Most of us are capable of periodically acting the role of fool or ass, doesn't negate for me the overall level of respect I have for the DU membership. Sometimes I'm a fool and an ass too. Accept this about each other and move on.

[bridgit]

143. "hail mary full of grace, help me win this nascar race"...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=105&topic_id=5434602&mesg_id=5434602

[OnionPatch]

144. Yes it was different

But there were less people here then. The more people there are, the more diverse views you're going to have and there will be some you don't like.

Look at our goal here....we want more than half of Americans to be on our side so we can win elections. I'm sorry, but within HALF of all voters, there are going to be some bad apples, some selfish people, weird people, hateful people, all kinds of people. Being surprised at this is a little naive IMO.

I say be glad DU is growing and stop wishing for the days when it was "pure."

PS Funny, I see this type of thread on every other forum I've ever gone to. Always pining away for the old days when the people were so much better and smarter, etc....

[Puglover]

145. Here's how I see it.

For example, I post in LBN "Maria Callas dead at 52". Then follows the news....and I end it with. She was a legend. She sang with her heart. What a huge loss to the world."

Okay, what can you extrapolate from this?
A. Maria Callas is dead.
B. I liked her. Alot.

Alright, there are a whole bunch of people who DON'T like Maria Callas. So poster A who is a sensitive secure adult gets this and posts something like,

She was a huge presence. She didn't speak to me like she did to many but I agree, a loss." What really can I say? Nothing. Difference of opinion. That's what makes the world turn.

Then poster B comes along. "Maria Callas, what a tone deaf skank! She was nothing but Onassis's whore." To me at least posts like this are representative of someone who is among other things:

1. Without an ounce of class.
2. Insecure
3. Immature.
4. Not very bright.
5. Brittle.
6. Authoritarian.

We have them on both sides, more of them on the right then left. The internets is a perfect petri dish for personalities like this. And sadly we have our share on DU. Maybe that's a simplistic way of looking at it but that's how I see it.

[datasuspect]

148. the pathologically indignant lump those two types in one category

and label them BOTH as haters, bashers, satan worshippers.

i understand your post.

the level of sanctimony gets rather cloying.

i'm not making myself clear, but i agree with what you are saying.

[LostinVA]

158. You got it n/t

[OzarkDem]

147. Actually, I see an improvement today

I see a lot more of the "silent majority" here at DU finally asserting themselves and calling for a return to a more compassionate and productive DU.

That is very encouraging.

“Let us dedicate ourselves to what the Greeks wrote so many years ago: to tame the savageness of man and make gentle the life of this world.” Robert F. Kennedy

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

149. Eh. They're trolls.

Not trolls in the vernacular sense of republican disruptors coming over to through a wrench in the works.

Trolls in the sense of dumb people saying dumb things to get a rise out of people. Sometimes it's funny. This time it ain't.

Maybe there weren't vanilla trolls here on DU a few years ago. But I doubt it. Bastards are ubiquitous.

[Rex]

151. So because a few people made fun of The Croc Hunter's death

we deserve defeat, fascism, terror, etc? I guess everyone has their breaking point. DU is as it has always been - you've got the good, the bad and the ugly. Same as everywhere else in the world.

[Generic Other]

152. 6 years of the world turned upside down has unhinged us

Perhaps, we have all lost our minds to one extent or another.

I know I will never be the same person I was before Bush and the GOP seized power. I can't feel anything positive about America or about being an American. I am numb. I find myself unable to sustain relationships with people who can go on pretending nothing has changed.

I have cut off acquaintances, curtailed activities, and retreated from day-to-day contact with the outside world because I cannot stand to be around so many dull apathetic people all lining up in an orderly fashion for their turn in front of the firing squad. Sometimes I am madder at these people than I am at the ones who actively support the fascists which is not entirely fair. I know I should try to save my anger for those who truly deserve it.

DU has been a lifeline for me, but sharks still circle in the waters here as they always have.

Since 2001. I have had to defend Michael Moore endlessly which is extremely tiresome. Like so many others, I have repeatedly fended off attacks by other DUers blasting anyone left of Lieberman. And because I am way left of center, I have had to put up with being told constantly that I make Dems look bad or that I push away potential conservative voters who are turned off by my "extreme" positions. I have also had to defend Cindy Sheehan so often I could scream. Or the Greens. Dare I add I/P to this discussion? Only on DU have I ever been accused of antisemitism for criticizing Israel's aggression. Oh and don't let me forget how often I have gotten bashed bloody defending Will Pitt or Truthout. Steve Irwin joins a very select group of people being irrationally attacked by DUers for reasons that do not make a lick of sense to me. From my perspective, things don't seem any worse than they have ever been.

Look what happened to Andy. The best and worst of DU. We already know what we and others are capable of.

I also know I have been uncivil, rude, and disorderly both on DU and in real life, but I don't think I can apologize for that behavior.

And I don't think I have "deserved" what has happened to my country.


on edit: I forgot Cynthia McKinney.

[Cleita]

155. I saw a glimmering of the old DU back on Saturday.

There were several well researched, informative and well written posts put up in GD on various topics we need to be concerned about. It was deja vu but it didn't last through the weekend. Such a pity.

Unfortunately, one thing that has remained constant is that many a good post on topics we should be concerned about have been drowned in the midst of huge threads over the flamebait fight of the hour. I guess this is why fewer posters of substance, including you, don't put up as many good threads as they once did.

[SOS]

157. Huh?

There were a few unkind remarks in regard to the death of a TV nature show host.
Therefore we "deserve" terrorism and fascism.

:eyes:

[newspeak]

159. I've been lurking since 2001

and I have seen some DUers come and go--some, sadly, dying. Every time a DUer who I found witty/intelligent (I could glean info and ideas from them), they suddenly were gone. I'd miss their input, their debates, their wit. This board is here to share ideas and for healthy debate-not for name calling or flame baiting. Since, 9/11 I perceive an uglier, short fuse, attitude in some. Of course, I see it in my town, also. less politeness, more anger-is it the sign of the times? Is it projections from not only this administration, but a different form of media? There has always been opposition in this country, but is division today being intentionally created by said administration, with the aid of the media? I remember some years back seeing an interview with Barry Goldwater-he reminisced how he and JFK went on the campaign trail together!!! Two opposing ideologies that could come together in debate, traveling together. Before he died, he knew that today's Repug party was not the one he knew. We are being divided-divide and conquer!!!! Again, there is nothing wrong with healthy debate-we all have our own ideologies our own ideas. The death notification threads are good to share news, but some of the vitriol does nothing but stunts discourse. Of course, when you come on any board, there's a chance of being flamed. So be prepared. Okay, flame away!!!!;-)

[Neecy]

161. I've learned to stay out of some subjects....

I haven't been reading the Irwin threads, I didn't read the Malloy threads, I commented briefly on the first pit bull thread and then had the sense to stay away when it turned into a brawl.

It's disturbing that with a crucial midterm election coming up so much energy is expended on such minor issues (although I grant that to some, they aren't minor). There's so much spinning of the wheels around here that you wonder if we'll ever get the vehicle moving forward again.

I view these threads as a way to blow off steam, to vent some anger at the wretched condition of Bush's America, but another good way to do this is to walk a ward with a clipboard and some yard signs. Just a thought.

[Chalco]

162. Don't let the Bozo's get you down.

I wrote that to Bill Clinton during the impeachment hearings.

He wrote me back a very nice thank you letter which he signed in blue ink. On the day he was impeached the ink turned black. That is the truth. Totally freaked me out.

Ignore Bozo's! Unite with the rest of us!

[Raffi Ella]

163. Frankly Will ,I am really surprised by this and YOU.

This is nothing but a distraction and SO FAR from being important right now that it confounds me that you would waste valuable time distracting everyone with this nonsense.GET OVER IT,people are have different opinions!

I would CARE if it were about 9/11,Iraq,Impeachment,our soldiers Dying etc etc etc. but STEVE FUCKIN IRWIN!???

God Damn,NO WONDER why the Dems can't get anything done with distractions and controversy like this bullshit.

*Putting this thread on Hide like allllllllllllllllllllllll the other irrelevant Irwin posts.

[Jed Dilligan]

164. I can't really see it

I've seen much worse than that thread.

It's only good news to me if non-liberals are showing up here. There's no liberal majority, but there is now an anti-war and anti-Bush majority. The liberals among us are going to be camping with people we aren't comfortable with--and vice versa.

Maybe if we can learn to get along with the newcomers we can become an unstoppable political force.

Or maybe we don't want our principles diluted so we should fight them to the death right here right now.

Either way a new coalition is needed. What better place to find out where you stand than DU?

[mvd]

165. Locking

By request of the thread starter.

mvd
DU Moderator