Should the Separation of Church and State be Abolished?

[Alcibiades]

Noted election-stealer and chimpette Katherine Harris has once again revealed herself to be shockingly ignorant of our system of government, calling the separation of church and state “a lie.” For anyone who has followed the theologization of the Republican Party, such a proclamation is nothing new. What is new is the extent to which every Republican must make obeisance to the Christian right, as our political discourse has shifted from political correctness to theological correctness. Democrats have repeatedly shaken our heads in disbelief at this trend, which is the reason why so many continue to support President Bush, who has succeeded at little in his mediocre presidency, other than to award fat no-bid contracts to well-connected insiders at Halliburton and to increase the profits of Exxon-Mobil and other oil companies, tasks at which he has been astoundingly successful. How do we fight back against theological correctness and its brainless army of zombies, who do whatever their evangelical zombie lords bid them to do, and believe as they are told? One possibility may be to let them win, at least in the area of the separation of church and state.

The weakness of theologically correct Republicans is that they don’t know the meaning of the word hubris. There is great irony in this, as Christianity, at least as it appears in the Bible, is highly critical of pride:

By pride comes nothing but strife, But with the well-advised is wisdom. Proverbs 13:10
Pride goes before destruction, And a haughty spirit before a fall. Proverbs 16:18
A man’s pride will bring him low, But the humble in spirit will retain honor. Proverbs 29:23
Your fierceness has deceived you, The pride of your heart, O you who dwell in the clefts of the rock, Who hold the height of the hill! Though you make your nest as high as the eagle, I will bring you down from there. Jeremiah 49:16
But when his heart was lifted up, and his spirit was hardened in pride, he was deposed from his kingly throne, and they took his glory from him. Daniel 5:20
The Lord GOD has sworn by Himself, The LORD God of hosts says: “I abhor the pride of Jacob, And hate his palaces; Therefore I will deliver up the city And all that is in it.” Amos 6:8
For all that is in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—is not of the Father but is of the world. 1 John 2:16

Earlier generations of American Christians were familiar with these teachings, but today’s right-wing evangelicals have forgotten these Biblical truths–and it is easy to see why, for their hold on worldly political power has made them giddy. Such is the nature of televisual Christianity. Those parts of the Bible which are likely to share in some measure of eternal truth, such as those pertaining to human nature or social justice, are ignored, while the most ridiculous trivialities and fantasies long contradicted by natural science are insisted upon as the literal word of God.

Which brings us to Katherine Harris. Her denunciation of the separation of church and state has gained attention, but less has been focused upon the rest of what she had to say, which, in part, was this: “God is the one who chooses our rulers.” This is not a democratic way of thinking, but is actually one of the main arguments for the divine right of kings. We should, of course, point this out, because it not only un-American, but dangerous and scary. Once one believes that God himself has anointed one, then it becomes possible to do anything at all, no matter how unchristian. This is also, of course, a telling example of Republican hubris. Theirs is a wrathful God, but God’s wrath is only visited upon others, and they have no fear that He will strike them down from their lofty perch.

Today’s Republicans have forgotten why we don’t have a state religion. We are not a people of faith, we are a people of faiths, and a few who have no faith. The separation of church and state exists to protect this. Although Bush himself gives lip service to the idea that we are a nation of many religions, he runs his own administration exclusively according to an evangelical politicized theology. It has been the topic of much scholarly debate as to why Christianity is so much more robust in the US than in Europe, but there has been general agreement that the role of established churches in Europe has made a big difference. The adjective most commonly used to describe the state churches of “Old Europe” is moribund. In the US, theological innovators and entrepreneurs have kept the churches vibrant, and sects have split from sects of sects.

Thomas Jefferson was not Cotton Mather. Our founding fathers, in their wisdom, set up the government as an explicitly secular worldly power. They had lived as subjects of a divinely appointed king. They had seen how charges of atheism could be used as a political cudgel to crush all opposition to the divinely ordained earthy power. They were only a couple of generations removed from the horrors of the zealots of Salem, and had taken that lesson to heart. Original Protestants thought that religion was a matter of conscience, and so the founding fathers included language about the Creator in the founding documents, but did not establish the US as a “Christian nation.” We are today living under a regime that would undo the wisdom of our founders by calling for the establishment of the US as a “Christian nation,” but its proponents have scarcely thought out what this would mean. We should recognize that the separation of church and state has been accomplished today on a defacto basis, and talk about what this means. The secular Europe of today was achieved not by atheists or agnostics, but by overreaching churchmen whose ungodly desires to fornicate with the Babylonian whore that is worldly power brought about a lasting disillusionment with the various established churches. To actually undo the separation of church and state would destroy America. Before it gets to that point, we need to unmask the current president and Republican Congress for what they are: self-satisfied, prideful, smug, arrogant, greedy hypocrites. If Jesus found them defiling the temple of American democracy, he would beat them.

[bowens43]

1. No.

[Alcibiades]

19. It's more of a rhetorically provocative question

[Submariner]

2. NEVER EVER EVER

[Alcibiades]

17. Nice cartoon

Sadly, the separation of church and state has been accomplished. We are ruled by a divinely ordained ruler, selected by the wrathful God of the Southern Baptist Convention.

[bluerum]

3. The separation protects religion and people represented by

government.

It is not a conspiracy enacted by evil secularists looking to suppress religion.

on edit: If anything, it must be strengthened.

[Dob Bole]

4. People who say things like that fear the secularization of society...

but the main problem is that the FEAR, period. Something that people shouldn't be doing in the first place.

[Alcibiades]

25. The only thing keeping me from masturbating constantly

like a mad chimpanzee at the zoo is fear of an old bearded guy in the clouds who will strike me down with wrath!

With few exceptions, people who actually believe this sort of thing are zombies, who cannot be helped by the light of reason.

[TheFriedPiper]

5. No, not as long as the separation of reason and religion continues

[ComerPerro]

6. You're right about Harris. Some of the most disturbing of her statements

are the ones that suggest our leaders are ordained by God.

It implies that going against them goes against God.

[Alcibiades]

23. And she's scary-looking, to boot

Her idea (not hers originally, of course: someone has told her to say what she has said) that the separation of Church and State is a lie has actually been endorsed by many state Republican Parties who have adopted a "Christian nation" plank in their state platforms.

[BOSSHOG]

7. I think a country and western song describes my perspective best

"Don't get me Started."

[William769]

8. As a Christian...

I say no!

[GOPBasher]

15. I'll second that. n/t

[nickinSTL]

9. absolutely NOT

the day it is...is the day everything this country stands for has been lost.

[durrrty libby]

10. "Should the Separation of Church and State be Abolished?"

HA! Like we don't have enough problems!! Talk about going to hell in a handbasket. Egads!

:spank: :scared: :banghead:

[porphyrian]

11. Only if everyone adopts my religion.

It wouldn't be fair to everyone else, but so what?

[GOPBasher]

16. EXACTLY! Well Put! n/t

[tjwash]

12. Sure, then we can be just like the Bush-bots Saudi Arabian masters.

While we are at it we can eliminate prisons, and just build a "chop-chop" plaza in every town.

[Alcibiades]

26. Abdullah is Bush's boyfriend, not his master

He only calls him that in private, with the leather on.

[tjwash]

28. Alright dammit, you owe me a new keyboard.

:spray: :rofl:

[warrens]

13. Nah, just the church

Bring fun back to religion. Make it illegal and you'd have to have all your services late at night, with passwords and shit, blackout curtains, singing hymns REAL low. I don't know about you, but that sounds cool to me. I might even buy in.

[GOPBasher]

14. Recommended for Greatest Page

Alcibiades, you write extremely well. That is a fantastic piece, one I'm sending to my Christian Right friends. :-)

[Alcibiades]

21. Thanks, I'm blushing

And you actually read it! I'd change the title to "Why Theological Correctness is Bad for America," but the editing period is over.

[MindPilot]

18. The "wall of separation" is the primary reason America

has managed to last 200 plus years without spending that time in a sate of constant civil war.

[Alcibiades]

20. Good point

Except that, for some folks in the South, the Civil War the Yankees thought they won is still going on. Today's Christian fundamentalist is yesterday's Confederate.

[Swamp Rat]

22. Yeah! Let's become just like the Taliban and have a theocracy!

[Alcibiades]

24. My point exactly

Except that the Chrisian Taliban will have snappier bumper stickers.

[PresidentWar]

27. Since when has Cruella actually read Jefferson?

Don't make me laugh. If she read his real thoughts about religion and the priestly caste, she'd personally call for the torching of the Declaration of Independence.

[Alcibiades]

29. I meant the people who tell her what to say

You know, "them." I take it for granted that people like her are intellectual bottom-feeders. An idea has a long way to travel before it reaches her brain: it has to go from the Cato Institute, to the American Journal of Political Science, to the National Review, to Time, to USA Today and to Fox News, where it is seen by whatever pimply reactionary college Republican who writes her stuff for her.

[hyphenate]

30. By the time that the United States

decided to split from Europe, the country/colonies had already been in existence for 150+ years. Thankfully, we did not become a separated country earlier, because the original Puritans would have seen fit to make the country's existence far more rigid and far less generous with the right to worship as you wished. As it happened, they were glad to escape from Europe and be able to get a fresh start, and bring their sorry-assed prejudices with them to do so. As you pointed out, we must not forget the horrors that went on in Salem, but Salem was certainly not the only place where religious fervor resulted in prejudice and intolerance.

I believe we need to have separation of church and state, especially now, because the radical religious right would certainly have a field day with the rest of us if we were ever to relax that situation. And the persecution of those who were not Christian, such as Jews, Islamics, Buddhists, pagans, Wiccans, atheists and agnostics (to name only a few) would bring a bloodbath not unlike that of the Holocaust. It wouldn't be enough to simply ignore them, but full, head-on persecutions would result, and I think that rule is one of the only things keeping that from happening more already.

Yes, I said "more already." Let's face it--there are groups like Fred Phelps's group, neo-Nazis and other white supremacy groups, and a hundred--if not a thousand--other cults and sects that are already operating now who have harmed, killed and spat on the faiths of others. But they, too, have the right of belief, and while some of us hate what they have perpetrated, we realize that the only solution to these groups is prosecution of criminal offenses, and not to attack them on the basis of religion, because what we would take from them, we take from ourselves as well. If religious freedom goes, than so does any hope of this happening, because laws would automatically condemn any group that wasn't the "state's" official religion, and any offense would come under that stance, and thus further cower millions into secrecy, as they are already cowed in other parts of the world.

We need secularism if only to keep religious beliefs from taking over our country. While right now is not a good time to live for many of us, we don't need to bow down in front of anyone, nor do we need to apologize for whatever we DO believe in. Freedom of religion also means freedom from religion, and that's the one saving grace under this regime that we have. If we don't want to listen to these assholes in the RRR, we can turn away and leave. We can criticize them as much as they criticize the "rest of us" without fear of being imprisoned or executed. If we didn't keep our right to allow for unlimited freedom of choice, the "enemy" would win, and people like Pat Robertson would gleefully attempt to wipe out 3/4 or more of our population in his bid to force his own beliefs on the rest of the country.

No doubt about it--we remain alive and free because of the First Amendment, and that is obvious when we consider the alternative.

[Alcibiades]

31. Would-be supporters of the elimination of the wall of separation of

church and state have given little thought to the issue, much less than you have. They have only been told that little children cannot pray in school, which is untrue. Protestants and Catholics each assume their religion would be the state religion. Conservative Jews, living mainly in the northeast, don’t think about what would happen to their co-religionists living in Alabama, which is exactly the oppression you imply, which historically follows a set pattern: first, ostracism, next, ghettoization, then forced conversion, then forced relocation, and I think we know what comes next.

One of the many historical ironies of all this is that Protestantism itself emerged as a protest against a corrupt orthodoxy. Now the Southern Baptist Convention and all the freaky little evangelical and charismatic sects have constructed their own corrupt orthodoxy, and demand that it be given the sanction of the state. When this stuff started up (as I recall, anyway) back in the 1970's, the right-wing Christians all claimed “this isn’t about breaking down the barrier between church and state, it’s only about letting little children pray in school and set up nativities in the town square.” Now that they can do these things again, they come out and say that the separation of church and state is a lie and a myth, but that they do not want to oppress anyone, they simply seek to acknowledge our nation’s Christian heritage. Yeah, right.

You are quitre right to point out that many other examples of persecution other than Salem were known to the founders. I only used Salem because it’s the most notorious case on our soil, and because it was satirized so ably by Ben Franklin in the Pennsylvania Gazette. (See it at http://www.museumofhoaxes.com/witch_text.html) I certainly wish we could chide the Cotton Mathers of today as ably as Franklin did! It is only because so many in our country are completely and totally ignorant of the true history of our nation that right-wing Christianity has been able to take hold as a political power. Sadly, the zombies are lost to us forever, as their brains have been eaten. We must now reach out to the still living in the muddled middle. Here are some random and unrelated quotes from Jefferson to aid in this task (I especially like the one on how religious heterogeneity leads naturally to liberal religious pluralism.):

I know it will give great offense to the clergy, but the advocate of religious freedom is to expect neither peace nor forgiveness from them.
-- Thomas Jefferson, to Levi Lincoln, 1802. ME 10:305

The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.
-- Thomas Jefferson, Notes on the State of Virginia, 1781-82

From the dissensions among Sects themselves arise necessarily a right of choosing and necessity of deliberating to which we will conform. But if we choose for ourselves, we must allow others to choose also, and so reciprocally, this establishes religious liberty.
-- Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Religion, 1776. Papers, 1:545

Here's the quote that several people in this thread, including myself, have come close to plagiarizing, because it is impossible to speak of religious freedom in the united States without it:

Because religious belief, or non-belief, is such an important part of every person's life, freedom of religion affects every individual. State churches that use government power to support themselves and force their views on persons of other faiths undermine all our civil rights. Moreover, state support of the church tends to make the clergy unresponsive to the people and leads to corruption within religion. Erecting the "wall of separation between church and state," therefore, is absolutely essential in a free society.
We have solved ... the great and interesting question whether freedom of religion is compatible with order in government and obedience to the laws. And we have experienced the quiet as well as the comfort which results from leaving every one to profess freely and openly those principles of religion which are the inductions of his own reason and the serious convictions of his own inquiries.
-- Thomas Jefferson, to the Virginia Baptists (1808)

The quotes above all shamelessly ripped off from Positive Atheism’s Jefferson site, (http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/quotes/jefferson.htm) although they themselves should be a little more intellectually honest in acknowledging that Jefferson’s own creationist deism is a far cry from proper atheism.

[and-justice-for-all]

32. Thats a big FUCK NO!!!

If anything we need heavy restrictions on Organized Religious figures meddling in our Government! Fucking Hagee attends "secretive meetings" at the White House for fukcs sake, I dont remeber his ass being elected for anything whats so ever!