Apple releases new models of iMacs

[eppur_se_muova]

Apple's iMac feels the need for speed


SAN JOSE, California (AP) -- Apple Computer Inc. on Wednesday updated its iMac line with Intel Corp.'s latest microprocessors.

The Intel Core 2 Duo processor, which was launched by the world's largest chip maker this summer, is faster than the Intel chips previously used in the iMac and other Macintosh computers.

Also Wednesday, Apple unveiled a new version of its consumer desktop computer -- an iMac with a 24-inch screen. With a 2.16-gigahertz chip, the high-end computer retails for $1,999.

Philip Schiller, Apple's senior vice president of worldwide product marketing, said that every iMac will now have the Core 2 Duo chips.

Apple also bumped up the processing speeds of both models of its Mac mini without raising the prices of $599 and $799. The book-sized computer, aimed to be the company's entry-level offering, now features Intel's faster dual-core chips, instead of single-core ones.
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more: http://www.cnn.com/2006/TECH/ptech/09/07/apple.imacs.ap/index.html

[The_Casual_Observer]

1. Personally I wouldn't buy a mac again. If something goes wrong

they find something wrong with the fragile case and immediately void the warranty. My advice is to steer clear of them.

[Elwood P Dowd]

3. Never heard such a thing

I've owned 6 Macs since the 90's, and several of my friends own Macs. Not one of us have ever ecountered what you describe.

[The_Casual_Observer]

5. Well, it happened to me. I'm sure I'm not the only one.

Mac computers are a cult thing, certain people would defend them with their life. Personally I think they are overpriced pieces of shit.

[originalpckelly]

7. I like Mac OS X, I like the aesthetics of the hardware...

but you're right, they are over-priced pieces of crap.

I just bought a computer with 2 gigs of memory, 250 gb HD, NVIDIA MOBO, Athlon 4200+ X2 processor, and a DVD burner for $760, $40 less than the Mac Mini, which has fours times less memory, less than half of the HD space, crappy mobo with integrated Intel graphics. (They memory is also the same DDR2.) I wanted a Mac so bad, but it is ridiculous to see such a difference in machine specs. Apple is ridiculous in their markups, but of course that is how they keep going with their small market share.

[alfredo]

66. This 6 year old "piece of shit" is nearing it's 7th year

without any hardware trouble. I've had no viruses, spyware, worms, or trojan horses since I started using Macs in the 80's. I had one problems with permissions, and all that took to fix was to boot from a networked Mac and change the startup disc.

One question, why does it take MS six months to issue a security fix, but a day or two to fix a hole their DRM software?

[TommyO]

6. I bought my PowerMac back in January

and don't plan on going back to a Windows machine as my main PC, ever. I do need a Windows machine floating around for TiVO to Go (no OS X-based software for that yet).

The PowerMac and the new MacPros are far from fragile machines, and from friend's experience, neither are the iMacs.

[Elwood P Dowd]

8. TCO just hates Apple

I don't hate any of the major computer suppliers. It's Windows that I can't stand. The computing experience was so much more enjoyable when I switched to Apple. If I were a geek or gamer, it might be different.

Oh, and Apple being a Blue company helps.

[Atman]

45. Me neither. I owned Macs since 1987, never experienced anything similar.

My sons own Macs. I've simply never heard of such a thing. In fact, both my son and my sister have received entirely new computers from Apple after bringing them in for what they thought were simple repairs. Apple has great customer service, and customer loyalty is one result. Of course, some like to think it's a "cult." But then, they're the ones running in the giant herd.

[warrens]

59. My daughter's iMac was a lemon

It took about 8 repairs (fortunately had the extended warranty) before they finally caved and gave her one that worked for more than a week at a time.

However, she has now gone through about four power cords, which aren't covered. They fail for no reason whatsoever, making the computer useless once the battery dies.

I like Apple, but a lot of their stuff can't stand up to even routine use.

[proud2BlibKansan]

78. I have been a Mac user for years

and so are most of my friends. I am also a teacher and we use Macs exclusively at school. And I have never heard of a Mac being called a lemon. Never knew of one that didn't work wonderfully well as soon as it was plugged in. That's the best thing about Macs. You plug them in and turn them on and you have a computer. No software to load, no worries about viruses either.

I just bought this iBook in July. Turned it on and voila! I had a computer.

As for the expense, my hubby is a PC person. He has spent at least twice as much on PCs in the last 10 years as I have spent on Macs. So macs are definitely a better value in this family.

[leftofthedial]

19. Totally disagree with you. My experience (nine Macs in as owner,

and about 50 Macs in as a sytem admin)

is 180 degrees from your description. Never heard of them voiding a warranty for any such reason.

[The_Casual_Observer]

28. Disagree with me about what? That it happened?

It happened. I would never buy another one of those things again, if you want to buy 9 of them that's your problem. Why do Mac people always boast about buying 9 of them is that a magic Mac cult number or something?

[leftofthedial]

34. why do all mac haters always point out that having a mac is our "problem"?

is that a mac hater cult mantra or something?

you didn't say that it happened once to you. you made a blanket statement about Apple that I have extensive experience is not true.

[The_Casual_Observer]

42. I had a very bad experience with them. Perhaps I am the only one that

ever did. Reasonable or not, I have a grudge against them for it.

[proud2BlibKansan]

27. Never had a bit of trouble with any of mine

I have owned several Macs for over 10 years now. Never any problems.

What do you mean by "the fragile case"?

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

31. My apples are flatout beat up and when I had a problem with the hard

drive in one, they just replaced the hard drive and put my data onto a new one for me. There was no "oh the warranty is void, because the case is obviously scuffed up."

My guess is that the case was seriously fucked-up (and let's face it, that's pretty hard to do) if they voided the warranty.

[proud2BlibKansan]

37. The cases seem pretty sturdy

Apples are preferred by many schools because they are so sturdy and also so user friendly.

[SpiralHawk]

72. This reads like propaganda from ABC

or MS. Sheesh.

[The_Casual_Observer]

77. No, just a plain old little guy dissatisfied customer with a grudge.

Nothing more, nothing less.

[ReverendDeuce]

74. I love OS X, but hate Apple...

In many ways, they are far more evil than Microsoft. And I do believe Microsoft is evil, believe me.

1. Planned obsolescence. You know your shiny new Mac will be junk in about 6-10 months. You have zero upgrade path. And in two or three years, Apple just drops support for your hardware.

2. Proprietary format lock in. You like your iPod? Good, because that's all you will ever be able to use those iTunes songs with. Forget your iTunes password? Mo' money, baby!

3. Macs are fashion accessories. You'll be a part of an elite smug crowd of plebeian pseduo-aristocrats. You will suck.

Let's look at the non-Apple computer, assuming Windows or UNIX:

1. Yes, all hardware gets old and obsolete. But your PC will likely last longer. And you can upgrade them later. Last Christmas, a friend had me install Windows XP on an eight year old laptop -- worked without a problem. It was slower than I would like, but it does work and is perfectly stable to this day. Same with UNIX.

2. Yeah, with Windows you get equally DRM-encumbered music formats, but your media player will work with a wide variety of portable devices. No fuss. Same with UNIX.

3. You wont be elite in the eyes of the Mac crowd. Same with UNIX -- oops, OS X *is* a UNIX-derived OS.

This is all really sad, because I honestly like OS X. But I'll never buy a Mac because I just don't trust Apple.

[The_Casual_Observer]

76. These computers are all disposable. The mac ones are made out

to be like some kind of religious artifact & they price them accordingly. The new model came out a few days after we bought ours, effectively making ours worthless (the schedule of new model rollouts are apparently a deep secret). A few months later it malfunctioned, they wouldn't honor the extended guarantee, it is still broken. I will never buy another thing from the bastards. Any opportunity I get, I publicly recount my dissatisfaction with them.

BTW, apple makes it a point to monitor forums where their products are discussed & posts insulting remarks about anybody who criticizes their "machines".

[Ravenseye]

2. I'll tell you what I don't like about iMac's

I'm uncomfortable with a machine that combines a monitor and a computer. Laptops make up for this with their portability, but I'm still uncomfortable with them. A problem with the screen and you need to buy a whole new system, and maybe pay someone to retrieve the data from your hard drive.

On top of that for simliar technical specs, plus equivalent software you can get a PC built (by Dell if you like, but also cheaper from other people. I prefer to buy from a local builder and support local business rather than either Dell or Apple) for about half the cost of the iMac.

Most people who buy an off the shelf iMac are casual users. Photos. Maybe video. Email and web browsing. A game or two here or there. If someone was going to do just that, and had no OS preference, and money wasn't an issue, I'd probably encourage them to get either a Macbook or the miniMac with a separate monitor, rather than an all in one piece.

If money was an issue I'd recommend a 2 piece PC for half the cost.

The iMac though is too much money, for too many headaches. Just about any other option is better imho.

[EstimatedProphet]

4. I'll tell you what I don't like about Macs

It's the same thing I don't like about the later versions of Windows; namely, that the user has no control over the OS without major investments in training. When PC's ran on DOS, if there was something you wanted to do to fine-tune your system, it was a matter of editing autoexec.bat or control.ini. Now working on the system performance as a whole is next to impossible for the average user, because Windows took that ability away. Mac never had it either. Frankly, I don't like the fact that the companies are deciding for me what I want in a computer.

[Ravenseye]

13. Overall I agree

I remmeber the old days with multiple disks with different configurations...himem extended versus expanded memory....etc.

Actually those really aren't the old days, sort of more the middle ages...not computer antiquity or anything.

For most people though, that was way too much for them and still would be. That's what linux is for...to keep the geeks happy. ;)

[EstimatedProphet]

18. True, and I need to get on Linux

[Solon]

60. Here, let me help...

http://www.ubuntu.com/

[EstimatedProphet]

63. Cool! I'll have to give it a try!

Right now i am computerless (I use library computers) but when I have mine running again, I'd like to try Linux.

[Solon]

68. Ubuntu is REALLY easy to set up...

Hell, its as simple as somewhere around 4 or 5 steps, boot up the Live CD, run the install program on the desktop(its a graphical application), then partition the hard drive, answer the standard questions(User name etc.), then just let it do its work. Depending on your computer, you should be booted up to Ubuntu Linux in about 20 minutes, with EVERYTHING working right except for maybe 3D acceleration on your graphics card(the ONLY time you need to go to the command line). If you like to live on the edge, you go to the message boards for Ubuntu, and set up XGL/Compiz, its a themable interface that is REALLY cool, and surprisingly stable. Here a few samples of it:

http://webpages.charter.net/solon7766/Desktops/

This is my personal webspace, provided by my ISP, basically a good way to save images I link to on here, so I don't take up someone else's bandwidth, I have 3 images under this directory of my desktop.

[jmowreader]

40. How much "control" do you want over the OS?

[EstimatedProphet]

43. Well, some would be nice

[alfredo]

71. I can open the terminal and do just about anything you

can do on any UNIX system. If I want to I can boot into single user and fsck if I wanted to, but now fsck runs at boot. I don't need to do prebinding now because it is done on the fly.


When I worked on a PC, I found DOS so much better the Windows. It stayed out of the way and let you do your job.

BTW, what programming languages come with Windows? Apple comes with Perl, Python, Ruby, PHP. gcc, Java

Scripting languages - AppleScript, bash sh, chs, tcsh, ksh, zsh, tclsh

All but Applescript and Java are open source.

Look at the developer tools.

http://www.apple.com/macosx/developertools/

[LeftHander]

9. My 6 year old Ti Powerbook...

Is still going strong with Apples latest OS...snappy as it ever was.

try running Windows XP on a six year old PC notebook....

My 8 year old iMac is still working. I put in a bigger hard drive...and use Jaguar on it because it doesn't have a DVD drive to install Tiger.

My daughters 5 year old iBook 500 mhz is still snappy and excellent.

My Dual Proc PowerMac I bought used (did replace the CPU module) is awesome. It is four years old.

My wife's iMac G5 17" has been an excellent machine for the past two years.

Our first mac a Performa with 16 MB Ram, and a 250 MB harddisk 66 Mhz. Will still boot up...it is freakin 12 years old.

You buy a $1200 PC today and I can tell you that you will be upgrading or buying a new one in under three years...

No casual user here....WIfe is a graphic designer and teacher, I am musican, daughter is a myspace, music, photo kid...

I use my powerbook to login to work on our unix and windows boxes off hours.

Works great.

I would like a smokin' PC for games though...Windows is a great gaming platform. If I could afford to keep it up to speed...and keep the spyware off it.

;>)

[Ravenseye]

20. Actually

While I don't have Windows XP running on a 6 year old laptop, I do have it running on a 7 year old one. Works fine. I wouldn't want to do much rendering in Photoshop on it, but that's just a memory issue for the most part and I'm not updating it because it's more of a relic system in my collection that I never really use.

I understand your basic point. I have a TRS-80 color computer that still works perfectly and it's what...26 years old? (Megabug anyone?...I've been addicted for a quarter century...sad really) I could hook that up to a 15 year old tv I have and everything would be fine. Or I could bust out my old Apple 2 C which also still works...or my 286 IBM...etc, etc. It's all meaningless anecdotal evidence though.

My problem with unified systems is that if one part breaks, the whole thing breaks. Anecdotal evidence of you not having problems aside, the risk does exist. One where a bad monitor on an iMac or laptop (PC or Mac) causes much mroe havoc than a separate system does. As far as other anecdotal evidence, I've seen it happen multiple times either by factory errors, user error (ever drive over your own laptop? I've seen it happen) or just age and a bad LCD display. It happens. (working around lots of computers, working with computers, and being the go to tech geek for pretty much everyone I have ever met...i've seen my fair share of fucked systems)

My point is that I can go out and order you a PC with the exact same specs as the 24 inch iMac for half the money all told. Dual processor and everything. Yet still for a basic user, I recomended a macbook if they want a sleek all in one system. If they're getting the iMac they can obviously afford to bump it up to a full on laptop.

Anyway, if you want to play games just go get bootcamp. It does pretty well with most current windows games, even high end graphical ones. Of course you still have to buy a new version of windows as well which sets you back, but there's no excuse for a mac user who wants to play games. Still cheaper to buy windows than a whole new PC.

[TommyO]

41. I just priced out a Dell XPS 410

with exactly the same specs as the new 24" iMac - I was doing well on price until I added the 24" monitor, that brought the Dell system up to $2,218. Same Core 2 Duo processor, 1Gb of RAM, 250Gig HD, and a drive comparable to the Apple SuperDrive. I will give the Dell points for being more expandable, but IMHO it loses points for not running Mac OS X, iLife, or Aperture.

Gateway offers the FX510XG with double the memory, double the HD, and a better video card for $1925, but that doesn't include a 24" display.

I don't think Apple's prices are out of line with other Tier 1 manufacturers.

[Ravenseye]

47. couple of problems

You can set them up with simliar processors, memory, and hard drive, but there are a couple of differences. The Apple SuperDrive is 8x while the comparable one on the Dell is minimum 16x. Big whoop really. It's a difference though. Also the graphics card for the apple is a 128mb, while the lowest you can get on the dell is a 256. That's a price change there, but again...not sure how much. I priced one out comparable (without monitor) under 1000 bucks. The Dell monitors are overpriced, imho. If you want a flatscreen you can get a decent one for about 250 or lower depending on your willingness to shop around. So lets say not half but I could set up the same system for maybe 600-700 less so not half, but definately less (as long as you don't let Dell rip you off).

Go to a local guy and you'll spend even less and be able to call "bill" if there is a problem with your box. That's my recommendation generally. Buy from a local builder who you can call.

My point with that though was that you could spend less money, so if you're looking to go on the cheap you could go with a gold old fashioned CRT monitor for around 100-150 bucks at that size (and the quality will be better too, particularly if you want to play FPS games....but that's another story).

Then again what is the person using it for? If you get an iMac, my theory is, you're more likely to be a casual user. A hardcore Mac user will get either a better laptop, or a full fledged Mac Pro (I know a ton of hardcore Mac users from programers to arists and musicians and none of them have an iMac (other than for testing purposes by the programers)). So if you're casual and you're just using it for looking at your digital photos, some light browsing and some email...do you really need even that PC? You coudl probably live with one of the Celeron based PC's and never notice hte difference and I could set that up for them for under 500 bucks.

So if you're really going to use the iMac, more than you would a Celeron box for 500 bucks (including monitor) and you're willing to pay 2 grand to do it, you should upgrade and either get the MacPro or the MacMini (which I think looks awesome), or a laptop with better specs.

The iMac is a waste. Either go with a cheap ass PC or get a better Mac.

[proud2BlibKansan]

39. yes they really are worth the money

because they last so much longer than PCs.

[NashVegas]

11. Casual Users? Nay

Broadcasting production/sound editor and Cold Fusion developer, here.

Other hardcore Mac users include graphics and print professionals, record producers, movie editors, animators. We consider gaming to be casual use.

That said, I understand your point. My stereo is made up of components, as is my tv/video system.

[TornadoTN]

17. I'm envious

I do a lot of graphic design and web development as part of my duties in convering the marketing for my company (I'm a man of many hats). I would do just about anything to have a MAC because they are handle the programs that I use so much better than a PC (Adobe CS, Dreamweaver, Fireworks, Cold Fusion). However, my company uses some proprietary software to manage manufacturing processes and customer information and as luck would have it, the software can only be run on a PC. Thus, when I send in my marketing plan each year, the budget item that has "MAC" is always penciled out.

I have two PC's and a laptop in my office and I have even tried to use that software on one of the PC's and have the MAC as a stand-alone, but the powers that be never see that a viable alternative to make our operations much more streamlined and productive.

Such is life, I suppose.

[CatholicEdHead]

62. Two ways around this

First is to run Paralells, it runs Windows programs while you are using OS X. Or you could use BootCamp and choose to boot up XP or OS X on your Mac on bootup.

http://www.apple.com/getamac/windows.html

You should have no issues running that Windows program on a Mac.

[TornadoTN]

75. Thanks

I'll look into that software. I had heard about parallels on the Linux and they were somewhat hit or miss, so naturally I was hesitant to adopt that strategy. It may very well be the best way to finally seal the deal on the MAC, so if it works, thanks in advance!

Plus, during last years planning, I was still at the mercy of our internal IT department. When we started doing our own database building, I cut myself free from internal IT and started doing it myself for ease of use. (Plus that fact that our own IT department is still stuck in "Win98 is the only software to use no matter what".)

[Ravenseye]

24. the iMac listed for casual users

If you're doing any kind of video or photo editing you're gonna want more ram than the base model there. My point is the person who buys that off the shelf with 512 ram and it's basic setup should either pay a little more and get a mac laptop, or pay alot less and get a compartmentalized PC.

Or get a much better actual system (mac or PC) than any of the above. I see no reason for an iMac other than someone who wants something pretty to not take up space, that they only casually use (ie they dont' work at it).

[Atman]

55. That is ridiculous.

I use a 20" iMac G5, and I produce professional animation on it for display on large plasma screens in casinos, and for just about everything else. It has a gig of ram, and is capable of handling anything I can throw at it. As I type this, I have Mail, Firefox, Safari, Photoshop, Illustrator, GoLive and iTunes all open, and I jump between them as I work -- seemlessly. Are there faster processors? Sure. Am I rendering the 3D for "Lord Of The Rings?" Hell no. But it is just plain silly to say iMacs are "only" for casual users, especially if the ram is your argument...upgrade it in two minutes via the little slide-out ram door.

Ironically, my 18 yo son has a full-on tower Mac Pro dual processor (G5, not Intel) and he is NOT a professional. He does use it for music processing, but he's not a pro by any stretch. And after I go to bed, he sneaks out and uses my iMac because he says it as fast as his tower, plus it has a built-in web cam. Go figure.

[proud2BlibKansan]

38. Artists and musicians prefer Macs

as do photographers.

So I disagree that most buyers are casual users.

[Ravenseye]

44. iMacs not Macs

Though I know a number of photographers and musicians who work on PC's, what I'm said was the iMac (notice the little i) is more for a casual user. All the graphic designers and musicians who I know who do use Macs either have laptops or the big honkin' serious boxes, not the iMac itself. I'm talking about that specific model.

[Atman]

46. They don't really work that way.

This all-in-one crap is generally a myth. My last iMac experienced an hd crash, totally shot. I just went to CompuUSA and picked up a cheap hd, literally 10x bigger than the old one, swapped it out, and was up and running again in about fifteen minutes, minus the software install, about 30/45 minutes. The price comparisons have been debunked a hundred times, and you cannot simply brush it off by saying "there are cheaper options than Dell." But Apple has a certain quality level, and you won't get it by buying a cheap, spare-parts PC, period. Your comparison is like saying a Ford Escort and a BMW 750i are the same because they're both cars.

[Ravenseye]

50. I disagree

My problem isn't with the HD needing to be replaced, but the monitor. That's the big one. If you have a separate system (be it a Mac Pro or a PC) with the system adn the monitor seprate, if the monitor goes, you can hook in an old monitor and on some systems even a TV and still go until you bring home a new monitor. With an iMac that don't swap out the monitor. They'll swap the hard drive, but if hte monitor goes, you're looking at a major expense and you can't just go down the street and pick up a 40 dollar junk monitor to get by for a few days till the new one comes in. It's not Mac or PC...it's both. I don't like unified systems because if the MONITOR dies you're fucked.

It can happen. I've seen it happen. It might be rare, but believe me...if it happens to you it don't feel rare at all, especially if you have shit you need to get done right that day.

Look i'm not cutting on Mac's quality level. I'm saying that it depends on the user. What they're going to be using a system for, and how much money they have to spend factors in for most people. My point is that if you can spend 2 grand on a computer you can fork over another grand in monthly payments or whatever to get an even better Mac that's a laptop. Or a Mac Pro. If money IS an issue, then the question is what are you going to use it for.

Most people, I would argue, would use an iMac (not any mac, but an iMac specifically) for casual personal use. Most graphic artists I know run Mac Pros or laptops. The only peopel I know who run iMac's personally are people like my stepfather who do a few basic things. If for people like that price is an issue, and they're not pushing the boundaries of photographic rendering, then they should get a 500 dollar PC, which includes a flatscreen. That simple.

If you can afford the iMac you can afford to get a better Mac. If you want to really put your Mac to use you should get a better one than an iMac. If you aren't going to really use it much and you can't afford it you should get a cheap PC.

[Atman]

54. If the monitor goes, and not the vid card, just plug in a new monitor.

iMacs offer video mirroring. Plug in an external monitor and keep going until you can get it fixed/replaced (again, as long as it the monitor that is bad, not the video). The iMac will be taking up desk space just in the meantime, but if the hd and innards are otherwise still working, there isn't really any reason for downtime.

[Elwood P Dowd]

67. You can even do that with the old original iMac

You have to go inside and you have to buy a $15.00 adaptor, but it works.

[Atman]

69. Another strange "point" the poster makes...pros using laptops

As if they're automatically better or faster than iMacs. Notebooks generally can't match the speed of even the basic desktop iMacs. The MacBook Pro kicks ass for a notebook, but there are engineering bottlenecks that keep it from attaining desktop speed, although it does come damned close. Again, being a professional designer and animator, I am a living, breathing, typing example...many of us do use and love iMacs. There is nothing special about them...they're "grown-up" Macs that happen to have a monitor attached.

[Elwood P Dowd]

70. I still own an old iMac slot loader, and it worked perfect for 6 years

before I upgraded to a new Apple laptop. It's now the backup and also stores my old OS & OS 9 stuff.

[CabalPowered]

10. I read in Wired you have to pay an extra $100 or $200 for a black case

:eyes:

[NYCGirl]

12. Apple doesn't offer them in black. Maybe you have to have it custom

painted somewhere else?

[CabalPowered]

32. I think it was just the new notebooks that they were offering black

for the extra $$$.

[Tracer]

14. I've been using Macs for 18 years ...

.... (graphic design), and aside from a partial disk crash (which can happen to any computer) --- I've had zero problems.

[Poiuyt]

49. I've been using Macs for 18 years also, but I've had ZERO problems

with the hardware. Occasionally, I've had software problems, but I've been able to fix those myself.

[AZBlue]

15. Steve Jobs = Pixar = Disney = ABC

'nuff said.

[NYCGirl]

16. Apple Computer = 99% BLUE

'nuff said.

http://www.buyblue.org/node/251/view/summary

[AZBlue]

22. Yeah, I know, I almost bought a Mac b/c of it.

Weird!

Kind of like how Katie Couric is freaking out and pissing off both Dems and Reps equally.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

21. The 7 degrees of ABC? Is this like the Kevin Bacon game?

At least Apple itself is a blue company. With Dell and most PC companies, you just give your money directly to the Republicans. I'll take the tangentially related company with the better product. Thanks.

[Taxloss]

23. Apple's labour and ethics ratings aren't as great as they might be.

IBM, HP, and Intel score far better than it.

On edit: I don't have an axe to grind with Apple, but I do try to shop ethically, and PCs just offer far more bang for the buck. And the two worst machines I ever had the misfortune to use or own were Macs, and their customer service is without a doubt by far the worst I have ever dealt with.

[SeveneightyWhoa]

26. Nothing is as great as it "might be". n/t

[Taxloss]

29. No, but some companies are a lot better than Apple in that regard.

I seriously don't have a big problem with Macs, but I do not understand the cultish loyalty that some people give them. It really doesn't seem to be based on anything other than their work 20 years ago and swishy brand image. I suppose it's because they sell computers as "status" products like stereos, not as workaday tools.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

30. It's still an overall blue company.

Intel doesn't make computers by the way. They make processors. And I've had terrible experiences with PCs and Windows. I don't mind linux (in fact I run Ubuntu sometimes on my iBook), but OSX is the best operating system in my opinion. Also, Apple computers last forever. I have a 16 year old Mac Plus that still boots up and runs with no problem. I have an 8 year old iMac DV-SE that can still run OSX and handle most everything. Can you say the same thing about the average IBM/HP PC? I don't think so.

[Taxloss]

33. Intel is significant as most PCs run Intel.

And it's in the ethical top five - that's not to be sniffed at.

As for "Apple computers last forever" - that may be your experience, and may be true of their older products, but it is not my experience with their more recent computers, and is certainly not true of the iPod, which has obsolescence built in.

The advantage of the average HP PC is that you can run upgrades and replace systems without having to fork out for an entirely new package - PCs offer customisation and versatility possibilities that Macs cannot achieve. (And as it happens, I have a Toshiba laptop that's pushing a decade old, and that still boots and runs, but that's more of a curiosity than anything else as I have no need to use it. But it runs fine.)

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

35. Apples run Intel, too.

And you can upgrade Apples without replacing the entire system.

[Elwood P Dowd]

36. And PCs force you to use the piece of shit Windows OS

No thanks. Been there, done that, don't want to ever go back.

[Solon]

57. Since when?

Nowadays you can get OS-less PCs, with NO OS built in, and HP now sells laptops with Ubuntu Linux built in. And you always have the option of deleting Windows and installing your own OS.

[Elwood P Dowd]

61. I know exactly ONE PC owner that isn't using XP.

95% or more of the PC owners will be stuck with Windows because they don't have the time or expertise to use anything else, and you sure as hell can't run the Apple OS X on a PC. The Macs give you a choice of OS X, Windows, or Linux.

[Solon]

65. The ONLY reason why you can't run OSX on a Vanilla PC...

is because of a BUSINESS decision by Apple to put a custom Rom/Bios chip on the motherboard that OSX will check against, if the chip isn't present, then no installation. Unless you want to hack the Installation program, hell, tomorrow, I can buy OSX, hack the installation program, and install it. However, while that isn't illegal, it does violate the EULA for MacOSX and I couldn't get security updates.

Right now, I'm looking to get a Mac, Motherboard that is, I have everything else, that is ALL I need, then I could run MacOSX without even violating the EULA, I want to set up dual boot Linux/MacOSX. But, no dice, they don't sell the motherboards. I don't need a fancy case, I don't need a new graphics card, sound card, DVD/R drive, Monitor, etc.

ON EDIT: changed the PC moniker to "Vanilla PC", Macs are PCs, just locked down PCs.

[Atman]

48. I've had my iPod for three years and it goes everywhere with me...

including snowboarding, in my car, everywhere. I've fallen on it several times while boarding, I've dropped it, it's been rained on, I still use it for my "stereo" at my weekend place. It takes a brutal beating and has never failed me. Damn, you got a bad one. I guess that means Apple sucks.

:eyes:

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

51. Yeah, my iPod is just like yours.

It's scratched up but it works great. I know someone who got a bad one and Apple gave her a whole new iPod and since her model was discontinued, it was much nicer than what she had.

Apple totally sucks.

[Ravenseye]

53. I think so

I have a 4 year old system as my primary and it runs everything great (though I did upgrade the memory to 2gig). My second box next to me for testing purposes is about 8 years and runs everything fine also (though I wouldn't want to do any heavy memory usage things on it). It's actually one of the most stable systems I've ever had. The laptop on the shelf above I hardly use but it's 7 years old and runs Xp and everything just fine (though I need a new battery for it).

My wife is on another 8 year old box running XP which is fine. It occasionaly has graphical problems because it has an old Voodoo graphics card which is defunct and there aren't any drivers for it, but the system iteslf works just fine.

Then of course because I'm a pack rat is my older Sony Vaio. One of the first from back in 97 I think...so 9 years old. I have that on Windows 98 second edition for testing purposes. I dont' even have it hooked up now, but when I have in the past it's worked fine (the mouse plug on it is a little loose, but the system is good). I have an old 486 and a 286 also but I haven't hooked up to those in about 7-8 years and even then it was just for testing some programs. Those probably would catch on fire if I tried to run XP on them. heh.

My favorite though is my old TRS 80 Color Computer with 4 k of ram. Still works like the day it was born. Best computer I ever had.

I've had apples too, IIe, IIc, original Mac, G3, etc. They've all worked great as well.

Anyway. Yeah I'd say an 8 year old PC, depending on what it was when it was purchased, could handle most stuff today, and a memory upgrade would help it do so even more.

[AZBlue]

25. The guy that portrays the Mac in their ads (which are brilliant, btw)

was in a photo with Kevin Costner who was in a movie with Susan Sarandon who lived next door to Kevin Bacon?

No...never mind...

[Solon]

58. I hate those damned commercials...

They are innacurate for one, Macs ARE PCs, the ONLY difference nowadays is the OS, so make it a Mac vs. Windows thing, and I wouldn't care(that would be accurate). Quite a few of us PC users either rarely or NEVER use Windows. Hell, after I updated to SP2 on my Windows installation, I disabled the networking entirely. I only browse the net on Linux, which is JUST as secure and stable as Mac OSX.

[Neshanic]

52. Must love Apple, must love Jobs, must love Disney.....

I am a Mac. I have no other view.

[Elwood P Dowd]

56. You're one sick puppy with all the Apple hate you keep posting

What's next; Al Gore hate mongering because he is close friends with Jobs and a member of Apple's board?

[saltpoint]

64. Have used 'em both. Prefer the Mac by in a landslide.

They make great stuff.

[Wonk]

73. Aren't religious wars FUN? I've got both kinds, and prefer Macs. nt