This is VERY scary...

[StraightDope]

http://www.buzzflash.com/articles/alerts/105

Though the Bush Administration's official budget lists the national debt and deficit as being incredibly high, they are actually far worse than reported, according to Rep. Jim Cooper (D-TN). But don’t just take his word for it, even if Cooper is a Rhodes Scholar and Harvard Law graduate. The following figures appear in the official U.S. Financial Report, released by the Treasury Department:

* The true national debt is $49 trillion, not the $8.3 trillion Bush reported
o That's $156,000 for every citizen, or $375,000 for every working American
o This figure has more than doubled in the past five years
o We paid $327 billion last year on interest alone
* The true 2005 deficit was $760 billion, not the $318.5 billion Bush reported
o This is 6.2% of the GDP, not 2.6%
* It's all getting worse...

More at link.

[Joanne98]

1. TWO SETS OF BOOKS The thieving Bush family has bankrupted us!

[redqueen]

2. Yep... I'm sure we're all really shocked they Enron'ed the books.

Reeeeeeeally shocked.

[JohnnyBoots]

11. This administartion is so Enron it is rediculous n/t

[elehhhhna]

41. AUDIT CORPS! AUDIT CORPS! AUDIT CORPS! Apply directly to

the DOCUMENTS.

"What once was lost has now been found..."

Recover our stolen money. It all went SOMEWHERE.

Hell, pm me and I'll tell you where to look.

[LSK]

3. where does $49 trillion come from?

[populistdriven]

4. Social Security Obligations

Plus Medicaid probably
more info here www.zfacts.com

[LSK]

6. i dont buy it

The debt only covers what has been spent, not what will be spent in the future.

Yes its a mess when they started borrowing from the Social Security fund, but in reality it should be a seperate thing as it has its own revenue stream.

[StraightDope]

7. "...has its own revenue stream."

Two points. First, yes, SS DOES have its own revenue stream, for now. When it gets two the point that two workers are paying for every one on SS, trouble won't be far behind. At present, it's a six-to-one ratio, if I recall correctly. Second, regardless of where the $49 trillion came from, it's readily apparent that the National debt is FAR higher than the "official" figure of $8 trillion and change. America is in trouble if/when foreign governments decide to pull away from the dollar en masse.

[LSK]

8. I am not disputing that the national debt is higher than advertised

However, $43trillion is A LOT OF MONEY. Even by national debt figures.

Also, social security's financial problems can be solved by raising the limit on salary that goes towards it above $95k a year. In other words, up to $95k salary, social security tax is taken out. However any pay above that is not touched for social security taxes. Once again, its a simple solution that cannot be discussed because RICH FUCKS cant be taxed.

[StraightDope]

10. "...RICH FUCKS cant be taxed."

Amen, brother. I've been saying the same thing for years. I often wonder if the difference between what money is there and what is needed could be made up by taxing ALL income for SS. In any case, it would go a long way toward fixing the problem, but with Republicans controlling the government, that has about as much of a chance of happening as them ending the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, or becoming "not corrupt", er, what's the word I'm looking for...? OH YEAH! Honest. That's the one! :)

[Name removed]

17. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[StraightDope]

21. Um, what?

"So do you think it is fair to take more from a man for social security in 1 year than he is likely to get back during his entire retirement? I don't. This will never happen BTW, too many of the rich are democrats so don't hold your breath."

Yes, I do think it's fair. That one year's worth of income that was taxed so highly is far, far higher than what the average recipient of SS will see EVER. Ergo, that rich man can afford to have a bigger slice taken from his proverbial pie. And oo many of the rich are Democrats? What have you been smoking, because I gotta get me some of that.

"...slowly change it into a private program with some government oversight."

OK, this is not FreeRepublic, and privatization is a bad idea no matter how you cut it.

[Name removed]

23. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LSK]

31. so by empowering people....

You want to take away my 85 year old Grandmothers only source of income and make her get a job???

:shrug:

[newspeak]

28. it is not a ponzi scheme

maybe you should google why we have social security--it is an insurance, an insurance that we pay to insure we have something to keep food in our bellies, medicine for our ills-as corporations do away with pensions (no more loyalty there) and 401ks being initiated by same companies (think Enron), the workers and families should be feeling LESS secure--but social security we could count on. It's been raided more than once-of course, I figure our glorious king along with Norquist is attempting to drown any social program and bankrupt this country as fast as they can. I do not mind paying taxes when it goes to our least fortunate, to our communities, to our highways, bridges, and to our parks. I do mind paying taxes for unnecessary wars, corporate greed, and shilling for corrupt politicians. And, to privatize every part of our government, you're talking fascism baby. Corporations need to be regulated with less power, not more!!!! Privatizing gives those entities less accountability to the people, not more. Oh, and by the way, I once was employed at Social Security. It is one program, I fully support!!!!

[LSK]

29. how do you propose to privatize it?

Bush's private accounts program would seriously underfund what the current system that provides the only income for millions of Americans. Including my 85 year old Grandmother.

Can you provide a source about Edwards salary?

Calling it a PONZI scheme is typically a right wing talking point.

[dogday]

30. Government Oversight

:rofl:

[Lifelong Protester]

43. man, what an oxymoron...

or is it oxymorAN???

[Ignis]

36. Welcome to DU...albeit briefly. (nt)

[StraightDope]

39. Yeah, he's gone.

Thanks Mods. Yet another rightist who will whine about how, "Libruls won't tolerate other oinions! I mean pinyuns! They say they tolerate others, but all they allow is stuff they agree with!"

When you're here at DU, that is damn straight, my erstwhile friend.

:rofl:

[populistdriven]

47. Bush's Tax Cuts for the Rich would fully fund the social security

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Nickster]

27. It's the difference between cash based accounting and accrual based

accounting. The larger number comes from accrual based accounting, in a nutshell, accrual accounting tells you what obligations you really have rather than just how much cash you have in your checking account.

For example, I could have 1000 dollars in my checking account and I can say that I have a thousand dollars, but if I know that I have 2000 dollars in pending withdrawals from my account coming in the next day or two, do I really have 1000 dollars in my account or am I actually 1000 dollars in the hole? See the difference?

[annabanana]

5. - r - for visibility. . . . n/t

[electprogdems]

9. for gawds sake

how the hell the pukes going to bankrupt social security, and destroy the public schools if they tell the truth about the deficit. I mean really....

[FourScore]

12. Then how is it that

the GAO hasn't reported this? Don't they look into this stuff?

[StraightDope]

15. "Don't they look into this stuff?"

They're supposed to. From Wikpedia:

"GAO examines the use of public funds, evaluates federal programs and activities, and provides analyses, options, recommendations, and other assistance to help Congress make effective oversight, policy, and funding decisions. In this context, GAO works to continuously improve the economy, efficiency, and effectiveness of the federal government through financial audits, program reviews and evaluations, analyses, legal opinions, investigations, and other services. "

"The GAO's activities are designed to ensure the executive branch's accountability to the Congress under the Constitution and the government's accountability to the American people."

That last sentence should tell you exactly how effective the GAO is at its charter purpose. Accountability? I haven't seen it for so long I've forgotten what it is.

[EVDebs]

13. R's will have to sell/launder more of that Afgan heroin crop

read The Politics of Heroin: CIA Complicity in the Global Drug Trade by Alfred McCoy

[Imagevision]

14. It seems anything reported by this administration is bogus...!

[Name removed]

16. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[StraightDope]

18. Well, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt...

Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid are all in relatively good working order, aside from being underfunded. Did Cooper offer a solution? Read the article and find out for yourself. If true, weren't the budget surpluses under Clinton a lie? No, but with a caveat. The surpluses of the Clinton years were just that, excess cash in versus spending, but money was removed from the SS fund in order to hedge the costs of spending. It never should have happened, but it did, and that pales in comparison to the damage that the Chimperor is doing now. Aside from WWII and the Marshall plan years, no 20th century American government has come even CLOSE to the deficit spending that has been going on for the past six years.

Your response?

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Ganja Ninja]

22. You people are so tiresome.

Why do we pay taxes? Is it just to go around the world greasing the skids for Bush family business associates?

We are spending 5 billion a week in Iraq. I doubt we're spending that much money a week for any social program and possibly not even all of them combined.

Pull your head out of your ass and take a look around. It's your beloved Republican party that's spending all the money and they aren't spending it to help Americans. They're spending it keep the cash flowing into the coffers of big oil and halliburton and all the other GOP business donors.

[Greyhound]

24. These are bald faced lies.

SS, Medicare, and medicaid are the most effective and most efficient programs of their kind in existence (including the mythical "free market" alternatives). Why do you insist on spreading these RW talking points?
:kick:

[many a good man]

26. Get real.

SS has generated a hugh SURPLUS the last 25 years, which Republicans have BLOWN on tax cuts to the rich and corps. Our for-profit health care "system," with costs rising at 7.5 times the rate of inflation, is going to blow a hole not only in M/M, but it'll destroy our entire f'in economy unless we enact cost controls (or at least convert to single payer).

The solution is to throw out the Republicans and educate morans like you! Get a brane!

[redqueen]

33. Oh no! Facts! I'm sure he'll disappear immediately.

They don't know how to deal with reality. It has a well-known liberal bias, don'tchaknow?

[StraightDope]

40. Facts! AIEEE! Run away!

Recoil in horror. Items of information that didn't come from Rush/Hannity/other random douchebag Righty! Blasphemy!

Lawl. :rofl:

[Ignis]

37. Oh, and that pesky little INVASION, too.

Yet another Evil Democratic Ploy, right? :eyes:

[KharmaTrain]

19. And The Banks Are Making Money Coming And Going

Talk to a financial planner these days and you hear T-Bills, T-Bills, T-Bills...buy up that debt and make money out of the growing debt.

I've long called Repugnicans on the "financial responsibility" bullshit on this one as a growing debt helps a major Repugnican campaign contributors...large banks and lending institutions. As the debt mounts and debt service rises, this is big money that ends up in the large banks and investment houses. Billions of tax money just goes to the interest...not even the principal...and that's how the banks like it. They don't want the money back anytime soon as they're making top dollar from the U.S. Treasury as this regime borrows money like a bad in-law.

Debt reduction is the last thing they want...this is too easy money to pass up.

[redqueen]

34. Kinda like loan sharks... n/t

[truedelphi]

44. Plus how about the 20 to 30 dollar overdraft charges?

In the state of Oregon in 1994 if you bounced a check it cost the bank
customer $ 3.00

Now after the banking industry got all cozy with Congress, you
get charged like 15 to 28 dollars.

Did it somehow become more complicated, difficult or onerous for the banks to
process a bounced check?

To me it is usery, plain and simple.

[Greyhound]

32. It's been over a year since this started to come out, and it has been

exposed from one of the last places you would expect, the world of professional economic forecasters. They depend on accurate data to make valid predictions of trends and relative health of the macro-economy, when their formulas began to return invalid results, they began to investigate the reasons.

One of the prime examples of how the system has really degenerated over time is the CPI. There was a very deliberate effort in the early 1990s under the auspices of Michael Boskin, who at the time was the head of the Council of Economic Advisors, in conjunction with Alan Greenspan, who, of course, was Fed Chairman, to “fix” the CPI. The story, very simply, was that CPI was supposedly overstating inflation. The pitch was that if people go out to shop and find that buying a steak is getting expensive, they buy hamburger instead. Therefore, their cost of living is really less than it would be if they always had to buy a fixed basket of goods, which is what the CPI was originally designed to measure. That was the whole purpose of the CPI, to measure the change in the cost of a fixed basket of goods over time. You’d have a steak, a loaf of bread, a gallon of milk, whatever. You’d price them out one year and then you’d price out exactly the same goods the next year. You’d look at the difference in the cost and that was your annual rate of inflation. It was a measure of how much the cost of a consistent and constant standard of living was going up. What Boskin and Greenspan argued was, “We should allow for substitution here because people can buy hamburger instead of steak, when steak goes up." The problem is that if you allow substitutions, you aren’t measuring a constant standard of living. You’re measuring the cost of survival.

Originally posted at; http://www.weedenco.com/welling/lilogo.asp Unfortunately it is no longer accessible to non-subscribers, but he showed how, after backing out the political lies that the administrations inserted, the forecasts became accurate again.

He went on to say that, as you pointed out, the deficit is many times worse than reported, the real unemployment rate is 12% - 15%, and inflation was running @ over 9%, before the gasoline gouging really began.

[truedelphi]

45. Don't forget - housing costs used to be part of the equation

But when the California real estate market first went up dramatically in
the nineteen seventies, it afffected things so much that Reagan almost
immediately pulled things like rent out of the picture.

[EnviroBat]

35. I hope to God we are using this as ammunition in the November-

fight for our lives!

[dave123williams]

38. Gee, whod've thought the ENRON guys would cook the books?

[redqueen]

42. Kick!

:kick:

[LaPera]

46. Remember when Clinton took over after 12 years of Reagan-Bush

it was much worst than they ever imagined, nor was revealed or reported...I truly think I want to see a republican win the presidency in 2008...Just like Bush Sr. after Reagan's economy in 1998- Because who ever is elected, will be a one-termer (Repuke or Dem)...They will have to raise taxes or sink...So why do the Dem's want it so badly and everyone thinks there will be a Dem Yeah, Yeah, (but not quite) We had a once in a lifetime, great politician, Bill Clinton...and everything will be fine as the republicans will be constantly pounding and now blaming you...For their and Bush's mishaps and greed.

Like the there's another brilliant Bill Clinton who will save us...Why not let the republicans wallow in their mess...its' how I believe...instead of the republicans using and saying "see" the Dem's are raising taxes on you...

Little Bushie has made a HUGE mess, and the republicans want to walk away from it...and blame the democrats for raising the necessary taxes. And then come in, four years and proclaim victory.

Aren't they cute?

Almost want a McCain or Jeb to take it all!

ALL the bullshit!