I'm annoyed.

[The Witch]

Note: repost because for whatever reason, this did not appear on the Latest or the My DU page. And that's annoying too.

I'm annoyed because people around me have bought into the lie that they hate us for our freedoms. My fiance says, "Well, it's spite, we have what they don't so they're bitter, isn't that human nature?" My dad says, "They hate us because we're not Muslim. At least that's the lie I'm choosing to believe right now."

And it is a lie, Dad.

Don't they see the subtle arrogance that underlies these excuses? Oh, it's human nature, it's prejudice. But somehow or other we have managed to overcome that. We can control it better than they can, that's all. It's a doctrine of superiority. We are the more civilized, the better of the two civilizations. And in a manner of speaking, perhaps we are. But there's also the unpleasant truth that this nation we live in has been the cause of a lot of suffering in the rest of the world.

Do you ever have a moment where you hear the name of a far-off country and think, "It's hard for me to believe that place actually exists, that people actually grow up and live their lives there?" I have. Now I realize, that speaks to how sheltered we are.

What is the United States? We trust our leaders to define us to the world. To think that with our money and power, that those who lead us have never betrayed us?

Yet we are told day after day. This is the greatest country in the world. What does that mean?
Greatest country to live in? Perhaps.
Greatest country to be next door to, or across an ocean from, or talking to? Maybe not so much.

In the end, it comes down to a woman sitting in a room knitting a blanket for the new baby her sister is expecting. She loves her family and her community, and she doesn't pay much attention to the world outside that. Then something happens, and that sister is crushed beneath a building, and that baby will never be born. And the woman's anger rises up, and she raises her fist to the sky and howls that she will get the monsters who took these innocent lives. Her anger is totally justifiable, her vengeance righteous.

She is the sister of a victim of 9-11.
She is the sister of a victim of the Baghdad bombing.
She is the sister of a victim of a suicide bomber on an Israeli bus.
She is the suicide bomber on that Israeli bus.

If we understand human nature, can we not understand that their motivations are the same as our own? Wouldn't that be the easiest possible explanation?

Can't we see that the urge to demonize is the human response to violence shattering the peace of our daily lives?
If we're so much better, can't we fight that urge? Can't we be the ones to break the cycle?

I'm annoyed by our failure to see that before we can change others, we must change ourselves.

Go ahead. Set me straight.

[Waya]

1. It was locked...for some reason.....

[maddezmom]

2. it's right here, not sure why it's not showing up

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=2115766
:shrug:

[The Witch]

4. maybe mods can merge that one into this one?

since this one *IS* showing up

[Waya]

7. Odd.....

...when I clicked on that it came saying that the thread is now locked......hmmm.

[zanne]

3. I think you've hit upon the reason for all wars.

We can't understand that the lives of people in far-off countries are just as real, and just as valuable, as our own. Deep in our hearts, we rebel against the idea that "all men are created equal". If the deaths of Iraqi citizens were deemed as important as the lives of our soldiers, we'd have the beginning of something resembling human compassion. Joan Rivers once commented, "We're all in this alone". Unless we open our hearts, Joan is right.

[imfreaky]

5. Thoughtful post

I think you are correct in that the jihadist don't like Americans/Westerners not because of what we do but who we are,... Not muslim. Which is odd to think about because there are many muslims in America.

[LittleOne]

6. ethnocentricity baby...

Right out of my International Business text books.

[yellerpup]

8. Among the Cherokee (Tsa-La-Gi)

anyone who killed another person, even if by negligence or accident had to atone by giving their own life. The reason for this was to stop individuals from taking revenge and perpetuating violence. It cut off feuding and clan retribution. Justice was done immediately and the responsible party/parties turned themselves in voluntarily. If the guilty party decided to run, fine, but they were cut off from all friendly support and had to try to survive on their own in the wilderness.

[bobbolink]

29. I didn't know that. Thanks so much for posting this.

THere are *many* great sins of the USians, but one of the worst was not taking the opportunity to learn from Indians and Hawaiians. There is so much wisdom there, and much we could have used to grow into human beings with.

THanks. I hope you will continue to post this wisdom.

(wish there was a good "thanx" emoticon)

:thumbsup:

[yellerpup]

33. My pleasure

James Mooney's "Myths of the Cherokee" deserves the credit. People should remember that justice existed in this half of the world before European colonists arrived, but the point is that I agree with witch. When you break someone's heart by killing their loved ones you need to realize that they will try and try to get you back, or your son, or your grandson, on and on no matter how long it takes...

[bobbolink]

34. Not only did justice exist, but some wonderful and beautiful ideas

we could have benefitted from, if we had had a bit more humility.

Thanks for the book suggestion... noted, and I will look for it!

AGain, thanks.... :toast:

[bobbolink]

36. And, "breaking someone's heart..."

We would also do well to remember Jung's teachings.. we all have that shadow side.

I see so much of this within Dems, yet so much denial to go with it.

Sometimes I despair of the human race ever growing up.

Thanks for your words.

[yellerpup]

38. And thanks for your words

You remind me to reread "Memories, Dreams, Reflections". I'm a big fan of Jung, too.

[bobbolink]

41. Here's to our shadows....

:toast:

Long may they be shown the light... :hi: :) :hi:

[mcscajun]

9. K&R

off to the Greatest page with you!

[sgxnk]

10. actually, yes

" We are the more civilized, the better of the two civilizations"

you disagree with this. but it's correct.

let's review. they promote - women's genital mutilation, forced dress for women that covers up their entire bodies, they criminalize conversion to judaism christianity buddhism (or any religion away from islam), they still have slavery (see: Sudan), they completely prohibit free speech and expression, they mutilate people for petty crimes, they prohibit public expressions of any religion except for islam, etc. etc.

so, if u honestly believe that we (and the west in general) is not more civilized than people who live under these sorts of regimes, then you have a very bizarre definition of 'civilized'

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

12. Considering...

that we just invaded one of their countries, killed hundreds of thousands of their civilians, tortured their people, and raped their young girls...

I think it's very bizarre to still believe we're more civilized.

[shadowknows69]

14. Is it civilized of us to wear our accomplishments like a badge

of superiority? The whole of the rest of the world and its people simply aren't as good as us murikans? The BS that we're the greatest country in the world is arrogant beyond comprehension IMO. Even if we are it doesn't make the blood in our individual veins any more valuable than anyone else's.

[sgxnk]

15. it has nothing to do with

"the people"

civilizations as mentioned was defined by their systems of government and society.

structures.

people are people.

this is a discussion of civilization, not the worth of individuals (which is of course a totally different thing)

your last sentence is a strawman and totally irrelevant

let's get back to the original point

we ARE more civilized. We... e.g. the USA, Canada, the UK, France, etc etc. are clearly more civilized

unless you want to ignore what the word "civilized means"

do you disagree? i showed you how we are far more civilized. do you dispute that?

it was nice rhetoric, but clearly all civilizations are not equal. and ours (the wests) are clearly superior based on the examples i gave.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

18. I noticed you ignored my post.

Probably because it disproves your point.

Doesn't strike me as very civilized, Sgxnk.

[sgxnk]

19. it doesn't disprove my point

it is merely a tangent and a (biased) account of the war in iraq (and no, i don'

we are (the west) clearly more civilized than countries that do the list of things i mentioned

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

20. Sgxnk, your whole point is based on bigotry.

As such, it pretty much disproves itself.

Frankly, if I'd had to pick who was more civilized, you or some random gentleman from Iraq, I'd go with the guy from Iraq.

[sgxnk]

21. it's not based on bigotry

but i expected some sort of race card argument. a common refuge of those without a logical point

is it bigoted to say that the pre-civil war US (that had slavery) was less civilized than we are now?

of course not. slavery is not civilized

but apparently, you have a double standard. slavery is ok when it's practiced by people of color

who is the bigot? YOU, OBVIOUSLY

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

22. "White people are clearly more civilized than black people."

"Black people have drive-bys, they listen to that rap music, they loot during disasters, and they have illegitimate children.

Oh, but I'm not a bigot. It's just clear that white people are more civilized."

Frankly, Sgxnk, who the hell do you think you're fooling?

[Shakespeare]

24. No. Muslim does not apply to race, and I doubt that....

...was the poster's intention (indeed, muslims heavily populate just about every ethnic group on the planet). He (or she) is correct that Islam is oppressive and, when practiced by zealots (who happen to occupy far too many positions of authority), often brutal. We as liberals must be VERY careful not to cross that line from the political correctness of respecting other belief systems to the hideous rationalization of societies that oppress and otherwise harm. "Oh, they're muslim and we have to respect that." Well, no, we don't--not when they use that belief system as a cudgel to make women second-class citizens and institute a brutal justice system.

I'm not saying that on the whole what we're doing now is any better--it certainly isn't. But I will never excuse or rationalize a society that never experienced any kind of Enlightenment (intentionally capitalized) and that disallows our good, liberal freedoms. Please understand that my rejection of that society is NOT the same thing as supporting the criminal actions of this fraudulent regime.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

27. but arabs are a race.

And arabs were Sgnxk's target as well.

Don't give me this "we liberals" or "political correctness" crap.

Things like "Islam is oppressive" is blatant, obvious bigotry. Right up there with "black people are lazy."

[Shakespeare]

28. No, it isn't bigotry.

Religion and race are entirely separate. Arabs and muslims are not mutually inclusive. That is not to say that the two aren't deliberately confused by those who would lash out at an ethnic group, but the other side of that coin is to rationalize an oppressive society out of the incorrect idea that to do so is bigotry.

edited to add: I'm not giving you "crap," and I've tried to explain precisely why I said it's a FINE line we have to walk--specifically because there are those who WOULD use the confusion to make bigoted attacks on an ethnic group.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

31. Yeah, it is bigotry.

And this isn't just bigotry against arabs, it's bigotry against a religion, which is still bigotry.

For instance, "Judaism is about being greedy, and sneaky."

And Sgxnk wasn't speaking about Islam in particular, but the Middle East and, presumably, East Africa.

[Shakespeare]

32. You're completely ignoring the distinction.

That is, the distinction I made between moderate muslims and those who use Islam as a tool to oppress. That is what I'm talking about, you KNOW that's what I'm talking specifically about, and my point stands. And it is NOT bigotry.

I am attempting to point out that criticism and rejection of that brand of Islam is completely justified and is not bigoted--and I have also pointed out that there is a fine distinction and that care must be taken not to use that distinction in ways that DO stray into bigotry and abuse.

But, please, go ahead and ignore that point. It's just as wrong for us to take a black-and-white view of the world as it is when the right does it, and it harms us AND our cause when we do so. This is a complex issue, and oversimplifying it for *either* end of the political spectrum is wrong and disingenuous. It behooves us to sift through the complexity of the situation whether it concerns muslims, arabs, jews, israelis, or any of the groups involved in the quagmire that is the middle east, and not deal in extremes. That is the ONLY way progress can be made there.

[kiki]

30. Afraid I have to go with the hooligan on this one...

Yeah, we're real civilised.

We empower women to vote (whether the votes will count is another matter).

We have freedom of speech (if you don't mind being ridiculed or called a traitor).

We have freedom of religion (not counting the occasional Islamophobic beating).


We turn a blind eye when our oil companies order local militia to displace or massacre entire communities.

We don't even know that people are enduring slavery and murder to farm the cocoa for our chocolate and mine the minerals for our mobile phones.

We shrug when our governments assassinate democratically elected leaders in other nations.

And every now and then, we pop over to another country and we kill, rape and torture 50,000 people, for no reason but greed and bigotry.


Things may not look too bad in your own back yard, but you should be aware that we are causing tiny holocausts on a daily basis throughout the world - some because our leaders are fucking lunatics, and some just so we can maintain our comfortable lifestyles. Perhaps that's the "freedom" they hate us for.

[The Witch]

23. I said that in a sense, it's true - and in a sense it isn't.

There's loads of stuff (we/they) do that (we/they) don't approve of and think is unforgivable.

Then you need to ask whether it's the little things or the big things that determine "how civilized" someone is. Is it worse to drop bombs than to have slavery? That's a horrible choice to have to make, and it's a question I hope you won't try to answer, because there is no answer. There's shit on everyone's ass in this world. Ours and theirs. I hope we all wipe it up without ending up with a worldwide diaper rash, that's all.

Also, you're lumping a whole lot of behavior into a single group, which of course you're not alone in doing - but the question is, how many of those groups do we (the U.S. government) take action against for how many of these unforgivable acts? Some of the countries/regions/sects do some of that and some do others.

[bobbolink]

37. Is it worse to vilify someone verbally, rather than beat them physically?

Plenty of evidence shows the physical effects of isolation and verbal abuse.

I agree with you, and I appreciate you posting this notion that we look inside first.

It won't be popular here on DU, but there are a few who understand the wisdom in your words.

Roses to you.....

[The Witch]

43. the point is that those kinds of questions have no answer.

Thanks for the roses. :D

[Ignis]

25. Who are the "They" in your post?

Can a people be civilized while living under a repressive regime? Was South Africa civilized in the 1980s?

You do realize that not every Muslim supports FGM, Shiara law, slavery, etc., right?

You also realize that Islam was one of the few "civilizing" forces in the ME for almost a thousand years, right?

And you do realize that fundamentalist mullahs do not actually represent Islam (or even the majority of Muslims) when they spew their hate speech, right? Are all Christians uncivilized because of Jerry Falwell's or Pat Robertson's hate speech?

[Shakespeare]

26. They may not actually represent Islam....

...but they happen to hold a disproportionate amount of power in the region. That, if nothing else, should have given this administration pause before going into Iraq, which was one of the few secular societies in the region that actively kept fundamentalism in check.

[TahitiNut]

39. Well, "bombing them back to the Stone Age" sure is a 'civilized'

... approach to changing that, isn't it? I guess that really demonstrates how 'more civilized' we are. Yep. Ubetcha.

[savemefromdumbya]

11. Most foreign people hate america because of its arrogance

and predatory nature.

[shadowknows69]

13. Witch for President

n/t

[Karenina]

42. Seconded!

n/t

[The Witch]

44. Hah! I'd run, but who'd vote for me?

Nobody even reads my ex-blog! :laughing:

[The Witch]

16. I'm annoyed.

I'm annoyed because people around me have bought into the lie that they hate us for our freedoms. My fiance says, "Well, it's spite, we have what they don't so they're bitter, isn't that human nature?" My dad says, "They hate us because we're not Muslim. At least that's the lie I'm choosing to believe right now."

And it is a lie, Dad.

Don't they see the subtle arrogance that underlies these excuses? Oh, it's human nature, it's prejudice. But somehow or other we have managed to overcome that. We can control it better than they can, that's all. It's a doctrine of superiority. We are the more civilized, the better of the two civilizations. And in a manner of speaking, perhaps we are. But there's also the unpleasant truth that this nation we live in has been the cause of a lot of suffering in the rest of the world.

Do you ever have a moment where you hear the name of a far-off country and think, "It's hard for me to believe that place actually exists, that people actually grow up and live their lives there?" i have. Now I realize, that speaks to how sheltered we are.

What is the United States? We trust our leaders to define us to the world. To think that with our money and power, that those who lead us have never betrayed us?

Yet we are told day after day. This is the greatest country in the world. What does that mean?
Greatest country to live in? Perhaps.
Greatest country to be next door to, or across an ocean from, or talking to? Maybe not so much.

In the end, it comes down to a woman sitting in a room knitting a blanket for the new baby her sister is expecting. She loves her family and her community, and she doesn't pay much attention to the world outside that. Then something happens, and that sister is crushed beneath a building, and that baby will never be born. And the woman's anger rises up, and she raises her fist to the sky and howls that she will get the monsters who took these innocent lives. Her anger is totally justifiable, her vengeance righteous.

She is the sister of a victim of 9-11.
She is the sister of a victim of the Baghdad bombing.
She is the sister of a victim of a suicide bomber on an Israeli bus.
She is the suicide bomber on that Israeli bus.

If we understand human nature, can we not understand that their motivations are the same as our own? Wouldn't that be the easiest possible explanation?

Can't we see that the urge to demonize is the human response to violence shattering the peace of our daily lives?
If we're so much better, can't we fight that urge? Can't we be the ones to break the cycle?

I'm annoyed by our failure to see that before we can change others, we must change ourselves.

Go ahead. Set me straight.

[Crankie Avalon]

17. It's "human nature" to think it's all the other guy's fault...

...and that you are just too good and noble to ever be in the wrong, yourself. Recognizing the fact that "they' might also "hate us" because of our government's constant bullying and meddling in their country's/region's affairs would be an admission that we aren't angels, either. Americans seem to be particularly deficient in that type of frank self-awareness.

[melissinha]

35. our failure is responding to stupid false propagandistic reasons

"They hate us because of our freedoms" is so false and the use of this reason is meant to instill anger and wilful pride.... the fact is that our country is always in the business of exploiting the poeple or resources of foreign nations which rightfully pisses people off. If we really have intention of educating the blindly patriotic we need to start with the real understandable reasons why they really hate us. Of course when we try to do that we get labeled as trying to understand terrorists... well it sure beats being an A88hole.

[michael_1166]

40. On a finite planet, nobody is really free.

So "freedom" is just a buzz word. Just like "greatest country on earth". I'm from Europe (Germany), I wouldn't want to live in the United States. At the moment, I wouldn't even like to visit the US for a holiday because of the mental state your country seems to be in.
I don't think any Muslim country would want to invade you. Why should they? They wouldn't feel at home on US soil. And they feel hated by the US people anyway because of their culture and religion. But Bush obviously has never heard of fighting terrorism by showing some respect to people of a different belief and value system.