Students beware: the draft is real

[FoxOnTheRun]

<snip>
Professor Glick feels that it is time to reinstate the draft because the volunteer military has a very big problem too many global commitments and too few soldiers.

Dr. Glick goes on to say that, "A draft would do more than just harness the energy and idealism of the nation's youth to meet the military's unmet personnel needs.

It would also tap more of the resources of the nation's women, heeding their demands for more gender equality by making their obligations more consistent with their rights." In an attempt to placate the left-wing, Dr. Glick notes that, "It would give the federal government more flexibility in dealing with conscientious objectors. And it would be fairer to African-Americans and other minorities, who might stop viewing military service as just another job choice."

He goes on to describe how Selective Service is already set up to work per the established Selective Service Agency responsible for maintaining the nation's draft boards at the ready in the event they are needed.

These draft boards and their cadre continue to receive training and funding from Congress. (Just type Selective Service into any Google search engine for the same procedures about how the draft would work written by Dr. Glick).

Finally he comes his punch line. Dr. Glick compares the experience of Israeli conscription to what America should ideally be doing. He claims that in Israel, "Except for small minorities, Israelis feel that the responsibility for defending and dying for one's country is a duty that must be shared equally.

They feel that military service should not be determined by demographics, by social circumstances, by the unemployment rate, or any other aspect of the nation's economy." To Vietnam Era critics of the draft in America (both Veterans and those of the Peace Movement) he says, "The Vietnam War and America's history and philosophy led us to opposite conclusions from Israel: A universal draft is not sacred. And our democracy demands an all-volunteer military."

Dr. Glick's final analysis puts the "involuntary military service is slavery " critics in their place by noting that given this negative view of serving one's country, "involuntary service will be accepted by the nation's youth only if they perceive it as service that is objectively derived and equally applied - and only if it balances military against nonmilitary alternatives. Such service will appeal to all of our citizens, save those who selfishly believe that they owe nothing to the nation except what they alone choose to give it.

<snip>

http://media.www.theguardianonline.com/media/storage/paper373/news/2006/09/13/Opinions/Students.Beware.The.Draft.Is.Real-2268054.shtml?sourcedomain=www.theguardianonline.com&MIIHost=media.collegepublisher.com

[acmavm]

1. This is what will bring the young people into this mess, make

them finally have to stand up and fight against this war.

Military service is honorable. And fighting in a war or regional conflict can be both necessary and honorable. But not when it's for a bunch of greedy SOBs who just want power and oil.

[AndyTiedye]

30. A Draft Would Allow This Mess to Go On For Years, Like Vietnam

Military service is honorable. And fighting in a war or regional conflict can be both necessary and honorable. But not when it's for a bunch of greedy SOBs who just want power and oil.

No draft for greedy robber barons!

[acmavm]

36. No it won't. All the little arm chair warriors and the mommies

and daddies will throw an absolute fit. They're fine fighting the war from the comfort of their keyboard and computer desk. But tell them that they're actually gonna have to pick up a weapon and put their asses where their mouths are, well that's a totally different story.

[AndyTiedye]

41. Everyone Was Throwing Fits About Vietnam, But the War Went On and On

[acmavm]

43. And we'd still be fighting it if there hadn't been a draft.

[AndyTiedye]

44. Not True. They Ended The Draft Before They Ended The War

Without the draft, they could not continue the war.

[acmavm]

45. And I suppose you think they ended the draft out of the goodness of

their little hearts.

Whatever. The draft was what brought the young into politics. But think what you want, I'll know what I know. From experience.

[AndyTiedye]

46. Can't Fight a War Without Troops

[northzax]

2. it's not really a bad idea

compulsory service, that is. but it would fuck up the military.

[FoxOnTheRun]

16. The Army consist now of 25% illegal aliens, hoping to get

US citizenship, it's already like a mercenary army.
They have internal gang behaviour...

And than let them have 3-4 tours is insane.

[BrotherBuzz]

17. No way José

Legal permanent residents are allowed to serve in the armed forces, if they present a green card. There are many aliens in the service, and have been for eons, but NOT illegal aliens. Fraudulently enlistment is a crime and recruiters have even been busted for falsifying records.

[FoxOnTheRun]

18. hm

Critics say that once in the service, non-citizens have little hope of advancement, since they cannot be made officers or achieve any position requiring a security clearance.

In July 2002, President George W. Bush shortened the three-year waiting time for qualified non-citizens on active duty in the "war on terrorism," allowing them to apply immediately upon enlisting.

But as U.S. casualties pile up, more immigrants may think twice about the price of legal status.

http://www.antiwar.com/ips/stapp.php?articleid=2663



What does that mean?

[BrotherBuzz]

21. Simple, there are legal aliens, NOT illegal aliens in the military

[Lone_Star_Dem]

23. The difference is legal vs illegal alien

If I'm reading that correctly.

[FoxOnTheRun]

24. I'm not very familiar with US laws etc

Some of the very first casualties of Operation Iraqi Freedom were immigrants seeking citizenship. José Antonio Gutiérrez, a Guatemalan who crossed illegally into the United States at the age of 11 and later joined the Marines, was the second soldier killed in the war.

José Angel Garibay emigrated from Mexico to California as a young child, and hoped to be a career soldier. His quest for full legal status ended in March 2003, when he died during heavy fighting in Nasiriyah, Iraq.

Both men were granted posthumous citizenship. But a bill that would provide citizenship benefits to spouses, parents and children of enlistees killed overseas has been languishing in Congress since last year.

But when I read this it seems to me they were illegals, or not?

[Lone_Star_Dem]

25. Not really your fault, it's not clearly written

He was wanted to be us Citizen, which he did become posthumously. Prior to that he was a legal alien who had been living in the US since he was a baby when his family moved here from Mexico.

[BrotherBuzz]

26. They acquired green cards at some point in their life

(many amnesty programs allowed this over the years) but they were desiring to become a naturalized citizens.

[northzax]

37. not really

while there are likely to be some people in the Service who are not legal residents of the US (someone always falls through the cracks) just as there are some who are felons, or have other disqualifying characteristics, the 25% figure is absurd. The tradition of military service leading to citizenship is as old as Rome (literally).

and most of the internal gang behaviour in the military is actually white supremacists, who have made a concerted effort to infiltrate the military over the past few decades. I'm sure there are some Latin Kings or MI-13s in the Military, the service actually does a pretty good job of weeding obvious gang activity out.

The one thing I can say about the US military at this point, without conscription, it is certainly the most professional of any large national military at this point. There are not nearly the same level of problems with behaviour and morale that occured in say, Vietnam. Of course, with increased professionalism comes increased responsiblity for behaviour on the field of combat, so it cuts both ways.

[whistle]

3. Election November 7th, military draft implemented in emergency session

...on November 8th

[misternormal]

4. Dr. Glick can kiss...

... my "already served my country" ass...

[Flubadubya]

5. Professor Glick...

can suck my ______! :rofl:

[wurzel]

6. A "volunteer" army was one of the worst ideas ever.

We would certainly never have invaded Iraq with citizen army. A volunteer army soon morphs into a private army for those in power. No matter what the circumstances, soldiers cannot protest because they "volunteered".

[rinsd]

20. Logical fallacies abound

You're right a citizen's army was never wrongly used.....except for every military action between the Civil War and arguably WW2.

"No matter what the circumstances, soldiers cannot protest because they "volunteered".

Yes because conscripts fair so much better. If anything the Bonus Army taught us that :sarcasm:

A draft has never ever stopped a war.

Those advocating a draft because they see it as a means of boosting anti war march numbers are worthy of contempt.

[AndyTiedye]

31. Soldiers Can't Protest -- Volunteer or Draftee Doesn't Matter

If they draft everybody, then no more protests.

[BrotherBuzz]

40. There is still a potential for internal strife with draftees

This dumb draftee finds agreement with what Colonel Hackworth had to say about draftees, especially after Rumsfeld said draftees had added "no value, no advantage really, to the United States armed services over any sustained period of time."


From Colonel David Hackworth's About Face

-"Even when they pissed me off, I had to admit there was something I liked about the draftees who didn't want to be there and made no bones about it. I like draftees in general, even with the attendant problems. Historically draftees have kept the military on the straight and narrow. By calling a spade a spade, they keep it clean. Without their "careers" to think about, they can't be easily bullied or intimidated as Regulars; their presence prevents the elitism that otherwise might allow a Regular army to become isolated from the values of the country it serves. Draftees are not concerned for the reputation of their employer, the Army (in Vietnam they happily blew the whistle an everything from phony valor awards to the secret bombings of Laos and Cambodia); a draftee, citizens' army, so much a part of the history of America, is an essential part of a healthy democracy, one in which everyone pays the price Of admission."

I was one of those whistleblowers and they treated me we respect and handled me with kid gloves; things were run on the straight and narrow in my presence. I don't want the see the the draft reinstated, yet at the same time, I don't want to watch our military implode. I'm conflicted, but I take comfort by being able to place the blame for this mess entirely on the shoulders of the Bush* cabal.

Now, in my perfect world.....:shrug:

[Dhalgren]

7. In a real democracy mandatory conscription is a must. The

citizenry must actively, and without exemption, serve as the nation's military - otherwise, the democracy will die and be replaced by something else.

However, since the US is not a democracy, but a corporate/fascist state, no one should agree to, or comply with, any form of military draft...

[demnan]

8. Yeah but they wouldn't dare do this

till after the election!

[AndyTiedye]

33. They Will Try to Trick the Democrats Into Proposing the Draft

Then it will sail through Congress and when people start screaming about their kids being hauled off to war
they will be able to blame it on the Democrats!

[SledDriver]

9. WTF does this mean?

"...involuntary service will be accepted by the nation's youth only if they perceive it as service that is objectively derived and equally applied"

So the sons (and daughters) of wealth and influence still get their deferments, or at worst have to "serve" in a champagne corps, but we keep that on the QT so the rest of the nation's youth think that being drafted into slavery to die in wars of opportunity started by those of wealth and influence isn't the raw deal that it really is?

[Coyote_Bandit]

10. A mandatory military draft would

certainly change the perspective of a bunch of folks I know in Oklahoma.

Horror of horrors - THEIR kids or grandkids might end up fighting a war. They would find themselves directly invested in the consequences of using military conflict for political purposes. And the kids would have an incentive to actually DO something that might end needless conflict.

There are few better motivators than the consequences of being directly affected by a particular course of action.

I'm not sure mandatory military service is a bad idea at all - provided, of course, that deferments and exclusions are mostly nonexistent.

Sad to say, but some will never weep for service members or their families when soldiers die or are maimed during voluntary service. After all, it was a chosen risk and a known potential.

[Occulus]

27. Well, fuck me with a rusty chainsaw blade

"I'm not sure mandatory military service is a bad idea at all - provided, of course, that deferments and exclusions are mostly nonexistent."

Excuse the fuck outta me, but I've been told for my whole adult life that military service isn't really an option for people like me. Jesus- people like me have been killed in their own barracks just for being like I am.

So I just know you're exempting all GLBT people from your great idea.

Right?

RIGHT???

[Coyote_Bandit]

28. Guess what?

I have no problem with GLBT folks. I think they need to be treated just like everyone else, have the same opportunities as everyone else, and be willing to make the same sacrifices for their country as everyone else. Not an issue here.

[mmonk]

11. That would finally stop this foreign policy.

[peace13]

13. Yes, peace talks before war talks. n/t

[Extend a Hand]

12. my children will never ever ever ever

be forced to fight in this oil war.
period.

[tomp]

38. if you don't have enough volunteers for your cause...

...you might want to think about your cause.

no draft, no way.

[NVMojo]

14. I agree, it's a-comin'

[fortyfeetunder]

15. No draft+no taxes = apathy

As long as there is no draft and no rising taxes for the wealthy, you can expect a level of complacency and apathy among the sheeple.

It's not like the good old days during the Vietnam conflict where protests were as American as apple pie.

[AndyTiedye]

32. You Are Mistaking Fatalism for Apathy

If drafted, most of them will glumly go off to die in Iraq, Iran, Syria, and wherever else ** wants to send them.

[SoCalDem]

19. We also need to quit "disguising" military "strength" with the NG.

MANY of the NG members are OLD...too old for active combat.. The NG needs to either enforce a MANDATORY "retirement" or be reinstituted as a US-ONLY branch of the military..

The large numbers of NG are hiding the fact that there are NOT enough young people signing up,..(Who would want to these days?..not many)

It's embarrassing for us, as a country, to see a 52 year old woman die in combat.:cry:

Same for the reserves..

My friend works on a reserve base, and she's always teliing me about how out of shape most of the people are.. they show up for their required training sessions, and mostly spend their time at the PX, Commisary, and restaurant, loading up on cheap/free food..

The lure of a check every month, in exchange for a few days here and there has been irresistable, but if these units are to be going to war from now on, they need to give all these people a REAL physical, and boot out the ones who are not fit for combat....and THEN count up our "available" military.

My guess? It would be about 1/3 smaller..

[StraightDope]

22. My brother is in the Army Reserve...

And you hit the nail right on the head. Most of the guys that I've met from his unit are overweight smokers who don't seem like the "exercise" type. Those poor guys were in Iraq for 15 months from March of 2003 to June of 2004, and I could fill up five pages going over their woes in both that hellhole and back here stateside ince they've come home. In any case, you're right. These days, soliders who aren't active-duty tend to be less effective than they could be.

[AndyTiedye]

29. A Draft Would Give PNAC Unlimited Cannon Fodder for MORE WARS

Professor Glick feels that it is time to reinstate the draft because the volunteer military has a very big problem too many global commitments and too few soldiers.

Mostly due to one commitment made by some people who should be committed. Can you say "IRAQ"?

Dr. Glick goes on to say that, "A draft would do more than just harness the energy and idealism of the nation's youth to meet the military's unmet personnel needs.

But first that idealism would have to be totally crushed.

And it would be fairer to African-Americans and other minorities, who might stop viewing military service as just another job choice."

Seems to me it would be TAKING AWAY the only job choice left to some of them. How about some REAL job choices.
Of course the draft is all about taking away choices.

Finally he comes his punch line. Dr. Glick compares the experience of Israeli conscription to what America should ideally be doing. He claims that in Israel, "Except for small minorities, Israelis feel that the responsibility for defending and dying for one's country is a duty that must be shared equally.

When the military was actively pursuing Osama Bin Ladin, they had more volunteers than they could handle.

Most Americans can see that what is going on in Iraq has nothing to do with defending our country.

Funny Dr. Glick should mention Israel…

Dr. Glick's final analysis puts the "involuntary military service is slavery " critics in their place by noting that given this negative view of serving one's country, "involuntary service will be accepted by the nation's youth only if they perceive it as service that is objectively derived and equally applied - and only if it balances military against nonmilitary alternatives. Such service will appeal to all of our citizens, save those who selfishly believe that they owe nothing to the nation except what they alone choose to give it.

So if we don't agree with him we're selfish, are we? Gotta call BS on this one.

Let's look at these non-military alternative forms of involuntary service. What happens to the people who are doing that work now?
They're probably public employees, most likely unionized. They will convert good, stable union jobs into sub-minimum-wage
slave labor jobs.

As the wars expand and the manpower needs of the military increase, only the well-connected will have the non-military option
open to them. There is no such thing as a fair draft. There never has been. Certainly not in the USA, and not even in Israel,
which Dr. Glick is so eager to emulate.

[Selatius]

34. In the end, a draft will play into the left's hands

If they want a draft, then there will be large student protests full of people who don't want to die for a war they see no point in fighting.

[AndyTiedye]

35. They'll Blame It On the Democrats

They'll go on abusing our servicemen until Democrats propose the draft out of "fairness".
Then they'll speed it through Congress.
They get their draft and four more wars.
The Democrats get the blame, and all the electoral fallout.

[Selatius]

39. It would be dumb for the Dems to do that or be tricked into one

My advice would be for the Dem leadership to offer solutions to remove the US from Iraq. I would tell them to portray Iraq as a cancer on the body that must be removed, or it will become terminal for America and America's position as sole superpower. Start drawing more and more parallels to Vietnam, and start inventing slogans like, "Who wants to be the last man to die for a mistake?"

[lonestarnot]

42. Excellent post Selatius!