We're simply not the country I thought we were. I am trying to stay calm

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

while I truly assimilate this fact.

We fight "pre-emptive" wars
We validate and practice torture and secret prisons
Our military leaders speculate about micro-waving us if we become unruly
Our political leaders listen to our phones without warrants and judicial oversight

And this is all reported. And we all accept it. Ho-hum. Need to do it. Must be safe. Terra, don't cha know.

Where can I flee that I will be safe from the above? Previously, I would have thought the US. Where do WE go to escape the gulag that awaits us if we don't just smile and nod?

[Chipper Chat]

1. Welcome to the USoviet Union.

Unfortunately. Hopefully this will CHANGE soon.

[mnhtnbb]

9. Those expecting change had better take a look at the Diebold

voting machine report on Youtube

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lL7w92X6Dv0

[MadMaddie]

2. Phoebe.....your distress is understood...many of us are there too

but if we look at history.....Revolutions were started because of the very things you stated....

The Republicans have bitten off more than they can chew....they know it, we know it, and the world knows it....

If they are not removed in the the November elections (because they stole the elections).....Viva Revolution....Remember...Remember the 7th of November...

[William769]

3. We are the Country you thought we were.

This too shall pass.

[Raksha]

66. America is what you thought it was

because we here at DU, we **ARE** America!

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

4. You Shouldn't Have Had A Static View. You Need A Dynamic One.

The country had been what you thought it was, but since our country has elections leadership can change. With a change in leadership or power comes potentially a change of policy, thereby causing the soul of the country to change. But just as it changed it can change again. It may not be what you thought it had been in these current times, but it can be there again tomorrow.

Do not hold a static captured in time view of what this country is. The expectations must be dynamic and must keep you motivated to push for change until the view once again aligns with the reality. With a dynamic expectation, one would be hard pressed to argue that the results we see before us were not to be expected. We all know with the leadership this country had right now that it was. But keep those expectations dynamic and see that in the future, with new leadership, we can and will rise again to align with the greatness we once were and that you convinced yourself we would always be.

[Union Thug]

15. I am very close to dismissing elections as a means of change.

Either they are stolen, or even worse on some level, our Democratic leaders are mainly an extension of the rich and corporate elite and defend THEIR interests.

Either way, the working person is screwed.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

20. Yeah Yeah Blah Blah Blah.

I'm quite proud of the majority of our Democratic leaders and if enough of us get out and vote, and get out others to vote, they can't fucking steal them. Enough excuses. Make it happen.

[Union Thug]

26. Well, I'm not proud. Most of them are cowards who rallied around

Bush's war because it was politically expedient. Some of them continue to do so.

Voting rarely brings about the kind of change this country needs. Only grassroots, massive organizing efforts and civil disobedience can accomplish real change. And with the placid, consumer-drones that make up a huge majority of this country, it won't happen.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

32. Yawnnnnnnnnnn

:boring:

[Union Thug]

34. And that's exactly the problem. Good luck out there.

[omega minimo]

40. "Out there" is right

:eyes:





Hey UT don't ever quit voting though, right? :hi:

[Union Thug]

58. No, I won't quit voting...I just don't have a lot of confidence that it

is going to change much. But it is our duty as citizens and not without some merit (esp at the local levels). :-)

Thanks!

[U4ikLefty]

43. Don't worry, that is the style of that particular poster.

They can dish out the rudness, but CANNOT take it.

[TheWatcher]

54. The poster would happen to go by the name of Queensryche's best

Album would he?

All I see is "Ignored." :evilgrin:

[Union Thug]

57. yes. that would be it. :-)

[Nostradammit]

61. lmao!

ditto: best album

[Union Thug]

59. rude or not, I am glad that we are all discussing this stuff! n/t

[bdamomma]

33. don't ever let them take our vote away No Way, this is our

right, and no RW'er is ever going to take my right to vote away, if we consider not voting they have us were they want us.

[mitchum]

42. But...but...but...you're not supposed to look behind the curtain

Why would you want to find out that the electorate only has the illusion of choice?


And, yes, I realize the irony of posting that sentiment on this board.
Still doesn't make it untrue, though...

[gumby]

30. Our "elections" have become a window dressing fakery.

Therefore, it is static (if I understand your term).

Furthermore, what this country has been has always been cloaked from our eyes. Since its inception, this country has caused great harm to most other nations on this earth.

BTW, mnhtnbb, the U.S. has invaded Panama before, killing thousands; egged on by the cheerleading of the Main Stream Media.

Oh, yeah, then there's global warming. Where will anyone of us be able to survive before long?

[Viva_La_Revolution]

5. Ahhhh.... The Awakening stage. You will either progress to

Shock (inaction) or Rebellion (action).

Which will it be?

[mnhtnbb]

6. We're building a house in Panama in the Bocas del Toro region

near the border with Costa Rica. It's beautiful. Only reachable by boat.
50 minute plane ride from Panama City.

We just got approval on our loan refinancing today. Equity from our home here is going to build the Panama house. When our son graduates high school in 08, we sell this house and then figure out whether we move permanently to Panama.

Our motto at this point is hope for the best and plan for the worst.

[man4allcats]

29. Can't afford to move to Panama. If it becomes necessary to

move, I guess I'll just move to Jimmie's:



:beer: :toast:

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

31. How many people do you think we could cram in there? nt.

[man4allcats]

38. Oh you can get a lot of people in Jimmie's. There are also

tables on the side



and in the back as well.



Quiet homey, really. Well, depending on how you think of home, of course. ;-)

[man4allcats]

46. "Quiet" homey? Try "Quite."

Damn! I hate it when I do that, and of course I didn't notice it until after the edit period had expired. }(

[patrice]

7. I know. It's pretty disorienting isn't it?

It's hard to be an outsider in the land in which you grew up.

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

11. Disorienting is exactly the right description

I posted another thread earlier about if Nixon had even attempted what Bush had done, he would have been dragged off in leg irons.

How can we have changed so drastically in such a short time? I think the jig started to be up with Iran-Contra and it's just been a long slow waltz to this point.

[patrice]

22. How? That's a very good question.

Though the salient political characteristic must have been somekind of critical political mass, the nature of that mass might be more than political, more cultural: I don't recognize my church (Catholic) anymore. The ethics of the world of work are not the same as the one that I entered at the age of 14 as an usherette in a local theater. The dating scene is alien. My generation (Children of the '60s) is a stranger to me.

Maybe I never really knew any of this to begin with, but certainly everything has to be re-identified and defined.

[Wednesdays]

45. When did it start?

How can we have changed so drastically in such a short time? I think the jig started to be up with Iran-Contra and it's just been a long slow waltz to this point.

Personally, I believe it started November 22, 1963. It accelerated with Nixon and Watergate, and then Iran-Contra gave the NeoCons the green light to do whatever the hell they wanted without serious consequences.

[babylonsister]

8. I have to separate us from the "we" in this country. I have nothing

to do with their war crimes or peace crimes conducted under the umbrella of war.
And there aren't a whole lot of accepting people, politicans, DUers, or true Dems.
It was impossible to get anything done in a country controlled by repugs, but I'm
hoping that will change real soon.

[Union Thug]

10. Two words: "Project Mayhem"

<grin>
"I was Tyler's Complete Lack of Surprise"

[Mike03]

12. It's Horrifying and True

and I feel exactly like you. Numb, stupefied and amazed.

[CarlVK]

13. Europe.

I've been several times and I could live quite happily in many of their nations. This is not a first. A little taught factoid of American history is that some government repressed American artists went to France to start art colonies in the late 40s and 50s.

[liberal N proud]

14. You thought you were living a dream in America

In 2001 that dream was rudely interrupted by the Nightmare called Amerika and the evil emperor bu$h in control.

Will it ever end?

[bdamomma]

36. Will it ever end???

that is a good question, I hate to get philosophical but we are the only ones to do something, either way in peaceful means or in other extremes should be considered with this bunch in abuse of power. We are dealing with some sick sick people here.

[NoSheep]

16. I suggest drinking heavily. Unless you've had to quit. And then, there's

always suicide.

i just keep sending emails and writing letters. Every one counts. That's what's keeping me sane. And the drinking, of course.

[gumby]

41. That's the Soviet Solution: Vodka.

I've suggested it before.

Yeppers, "freedom" has certainly helped out those commies, hasn't it?

Limbaugh used to brag that his good buddy Paul Weyrich and the Heritage Foundation right-wingers were working hard over there. They did a real good job, didn't they? Sort of like the Heritage cronies did in Iraq!

[European Socialist]

17. Don't worry. Our elected Democrats will work it out in a bipartisan manor.

[Union Thug]

28. Ugh... And you're right, a bipartisan manner in a lordly manor. ;-)

[Fire Walk With Me]

18. George Bush and friends are simply America's dark side, made manifest.

We must examine it and discard it, or it will get the better of us.

[marions ghost]

62. yes

"we must examine America's dark side..."

Most people have a hard time examining the dark side of anything. Only hardcore realists will wade into those waters. But there are many among us who are capable of it, capable of shining some light into the darkest corners of this country's psyche. If we want a country we can feel good about, if we want leaders we can trust, if we want to avoid descending into a survivalist mentality...we must face the degree of damage that has been done to us individually and to the country as a whole, by our "elected" leaders. We must oppose the ruthless forces that have taken us hostage. We must identify and strongly reject the demons within. It is not a time for fence-sitting.

[Fire Walk With Me]

63. Understand that our response to all of this is critical.

If we are attacked again, we must be determined to not respond visciously and blindly. We are creating an endless cycle of war and hate, and must be responsible for choosing the direction we go, into hate and the possible loss of what we've built..

[marions ghost]

65. I assume you mean

if we are attacked again by "outside" forces. I'm still not sure WHO they were, on 9-11. Just some hired Saudi killers, seems to me. Our reaction has only swelled the ranks of such Islamic martyrs.

Once again we have to face the enemy within--the inside forces in govt who use these opportunities to wage imperialist wars under the guise of spreading 'democracy,' while systematically reducing Americans to drones.

"We" who know better are not getting to choose the direction we are going in. Many of us are not responsible for what has been done in our name.

[stillcool]

19. the toothpaste won't go back in the tube...

I often need to look away. I don't know how some who've been awake for longer than I manage it....the earth shifting beneath me as another degree of perception pierces my conscious. All the same..life goes on. Crazy.

[Thickasabrick]

21. New Zealand

[imagolfer]

23. Get up , Stand up

While I empathize with your confusion, do something this fall.
 Register people, walk door to door, volunteer to phone bank,
anything that will assist the changing of the guard in
Congress and bring actual oversight back.  Oversight where
people ask questions and don't follow blindly into that
goodnight.  Remember the immortal Bob Marley song?  "Get
up, stand up for your rights."  Now is the time to fight-
educate your family, friends, co-workers and neighbors as per
your beliefs.  Stand up for what you believe in.  Best of luck
and keep the faith!

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

27. thank you for your good advice

and welcome! I am honored to make your acquaintance. :hi:

It's not so much confusion as disbelief. But you are absolutely correct - the choice is to soldier on in the larger fight or to retreat into personal despair.

[newyawker99]

56. Hi imagolfer!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[madmax]

24. I feel the same as every poster here

I am scared shitless about what's going on in our country. For the past year I've seriously considered moving out of the country when the spouse retires in 7 years. If we can still get out, of course.

Just started to read DU again after about 6 months. TMI to digest - my head is going to explode. Glad to be back but, I better up the bp meds.

[Olney Blue]

39. Hi madmax- nice to see you back.

:hi:

[Cleita]

25. This is the result of one hundred years of our foreign policy.

We have always been for ourselves at the expense of others. However, the Republican led governments in second half of the last century have taken it to a high that only Roman emperors could dream of.

When we realize that the rest of the world does not exist to make our lives better at the expense of the citizens of other countries then we might start learning to be better citizens of the world. Then we might notice that the cruel practices they are trying to make us accept are wrong on every level.

Remember we cared not when the sanctions were imposed on Iraq to restrain Saddam. His people suffered immensely from it and we didn't care. Once we learn that we can't make the innocents of each country we put a heavy hand on because we don't like their leaders suffer, then we might reverse this diabolical trend we are moving in.

[fooj]

35. Never lose hope.

Note- with hope in your heart- that those earlier Americans always found their way to the light and we can, too. -K. Olbermann

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

37. I might have mentioned this to you before, but your

little whirligig smiley face avatar has always been so uplifting and amusing to me. I also think you make a lot of great comments. Times have been just as dreary before, no doubt.

[Raffi Ella]

60. aw!I'm so glad you posted that.

Hearing him say that did remind me that we will make it through this and so did you by posting it again.Thanks.


To the original poster,as you can see a lot of people,including myself, feel the way you do.We can't give in to the overwhelming horror of it.We have to keep our wits about us and fight it with everything we've got.


We will get through this. :kick:

[BlueJac]

44. I am with you............

Phoebe Loosinhouse it is a new world for me too. I can only hope and help out! This November is a must win!

[BlueCentrist]

47. incredible to see this posted here right now.

Just this afternoon we were discussing Australia as an alternative,wondering about their politics and policies...Canada maybe but that's a little too close for comfort when things get really bad as I predict they will.

Yes,very frightening times.Very.

[magellan]

52. And we've been discussing N. Zealand

Hey, maybe we'll meet Down Under, BlueCentrist.

I'm in a deep state of shock over what's happened to our country. There are times when I'm out shopping when I just want to scream at people to wake up. Then there are times when someone notices my Kerry t-shirt (hey, it's a perfectly good shirt), points at it and wistfully sighs, "If only."

Nice to meet you here, welcome aboard. :)

[and-justice-for-all]

48. There is no 'WE' in what the GOP does....its THEY and THEM..

I didnt vote for those facist bastards!

[Phrogman]

49. The Philippines is a really good excape, I'm already here!

LOL

Care to join me?

[Philosoraptor]

50. you are not alone

but it is frightening, the apathy and disassociation from reality.

[PhilYerHead]

51. South of the border. See you there.

It does make us cry though.

[The2ndWheel]

53. None of which is new

Even to this country.

Well, like previous people, we could sail west. Just no killing for land this time.

Also, lose hope, and lose it quickly. That's the only way anything will fundamentally change. As long as we have hope, entities such as DARPA, the NSA, CIA, the Pentagon, etc, will continue to exist, because people with hope will say that if only we get responsible people in there, we can change those agencies into agencies that work for the people. No, you won't.

[sendero]

55. I think that with countries...

... as with individuals, you find out what they are made of in times of adversity, of tragedy.

The first substantial terror attack on our soil gives way too many Americans the idea that shredding the Constitution will make them safe and that being a world bully will "scare" the terrorists into submission.

Neither is remotely true and it's sad to find that you live with people who are so small of heart and of mind.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

64. What scares me is that media isn't screaming about it & people don't care

never thought that that could happen here.

This country just simply sucks and I want out of here - I just can't stand it. I have tons of relatives in the Netherlands and dream of moving there....