Will we ever cure death?

[The2ndWheel]

As we steamroll into the unknown, imagination seemingly our soul limit, only wondering if we can, never asking if we should, where does your imagination take you?

[texastoast]

1. I hope not

Next time I want wings.

[Ilsa]

16. Me too. I want to be waterfowl, eat fish.

Maybe a common seagull. No one hunts them. I could fly inland and shit all over SUV's with GOP stickers on them.

[SoCalDem]

62. Me three..

To "conquer" death would be to presume that we had perfect people, and there was no need for anymore..ever.. Birth would have to be obsolete...

Can you even imagine a planet full of all who have ever existed:scared:

the Birth/Death adventure is the ONE thing we all have in common..The evilest person on earth will eventually die, and we then get a chance to repair the damage they did..

It's all about renewal... a cosmic conveyor belt to oblivion :)

[Horse with no Name]

2. Why would we want to?

Wouldn't the earth get kind of crowded?

[sui generis]

3. I hope so

it's the only thing that will force us to deal with finite resources "in our lifetime", and to deal with real death as something to be avoided. All these dumbfuck heroics about the deaths of our kids in Iraq as being "worth it" would sound even more hollow.

Not saying that if you want to croak you can't, but those of us who'd like to stick around to see tomorrow should have that option too.

Beyond the actual "cure" I'd say some social engineering would also be in order. For instance, if you choose immortality, you don't get to have children. If you choose to have children, you don't get to live forever. You don't get to work at the same job for longer than 20 years.

And our economy would clearly need restructuring. What would a young whippersnapper of 80 have to compete with against his 400 and 500 year old elders? Practically a child.

[Horse with no Name]

5. Yeah but think of the drain on Social Security

I mean seriously.;)

[endarkenment]

4. Preservation of conscious being not unimaginable.

it is not ridiculous to imagine that consciousness could be preserved via technology. This would be a form of immortality. I am not sure I would want to exist as a digital replica of my self, but it sure beats the alternative. At least we would have a choice.

[Yupster]

24. I can picture a time

when everyone has cloned bodies of themselves and every 10 years you have your memories zapped into your new 18 year old body again. I see it as feasable some day.

[spinbaby]

32. There was a science fiction story about this

Every few years, replicate your mind from your old abused body into your new healthy body. The story is what happens to the old body and the mind that still inhabits it. It's not pretty.

[AngryAmish]

49. Like Chucky?

[Teaser]

6. I am a "consciousness uploader" myself.

I plan on implementing a complex neural network that mimic's the overall activity of my brain, down to the finest possible grain. And then, slowly, takes fragments of my brain offline and let the simulation take over the load.

:)

Well, that's optimism. But in any event I've written a computer language designed to optimize parameter fitting just to generate the appropriate neural network model that best fits the cortical dynamics observed at a variety of scales. If it winds up being an immortality machine someday, well, cool.

[sui generis]

12. so how are you accounting for reading calcium ion channel states?

at some point the read mechanism has to be pretty granular.

[Teaser]

20. don't think they're vital for state assessment.

Doing a brain scan down to the level of individual ion channels is gratuitous, imo.

Since most of cortex is columnar, and the columns are generally feature-directed, it will probably be good enough to model activity at the columnar level...if what I'm interested in is output level equivalence. The columnar representation of cortical activity would be used as a constraint upon projected model output behavior, and real subject behavior would then be used to revise the mechanics of the columnar model in order to better align its behavior with that of the subject. A recursive remodelling, as it were.

The initial procedure would be to develop a Bayesian model associating particular column state (with each column represented as a floating point element in a feature vector) with a particular behavioral feature output. Additional bayesian models would have to be constructed to describe transitions between cortical states as a function of time step, in order to more accurately describe the evolution and propogation of columnar activity due to a single stimulus impulse (of whatever modality).

[sui generis]

23. my understanding was that the "kick start" was the superposition

of those ion channel states at any given point in time; that the emergent property of consciousness was similar to how a flocking algorithm selects for velocity and vector to form the proverbial "wedge".

Output level equivalence modulated by those columnar representations at a static point in time would be like throwing a pin ball into an unplugged pinball machine. Also, how do you map those arbitrary areas to begin the read? What kind of hardware is picking up the processor tasks?

My understanding of using software representation of bayesian model neural networks with models of "feedback" loops, limiters, statistical bailouts, etc. was that those networks ended up being too specialized, and relatively useless for independent prioritization goals. I don't know what current tech is though - have been away from the field for a few years. What languages/compilers are you using? Did you build your own new object classes or model them on work already done somewhere?

[Teaser]

55. long and boring reply

my understanding was that the "kick start" was the superposition of those ion channel states at any given point in time; that the emergent property of consciousness was similar to how a flocking algorithm selects for velocity and vector to form the proverbial "wedge".

I don't think anyone has an "understanding" of what generates consciousness. Indeed, obtaining a rigorous understanding of the cause (and if it is a causal phenomenon at all) is highly problematic.
So until someone comes along with a good idea about this, I'm a functionalist.


Regarding my (our) equiptment, we use a 128 channel Cyborg(tm) electrode drive to sample the activity at the cortical surface, passed through a cyberkinetics front end head stage to Bionic Technologies 128 channel signal analyzer. A sample of the local field potentials are used to create a representation of cortical surface activity of rat sensory and motor cortices. A single model of cortical column activity was constructed based on a paper by Traub et al (from 2004 or 2005...if you really want the reference(s) email me). Testing for a variety of input and output signals to the model we characterized the model in black box format. Black box models are then arranged in hexagonal arrays and couplings between the models are estimated from the surface "EEG" we recorded via the cyborg drive. Current limb position, (as described by estimated muscular stretch) is fed to the appropriate column elements as a drive, hopefully (to some degree) imitating the somatotopic thalamocortical drives. Connection strengths between positional drive signals were allowed to vary as parameters of the model, along with lateral projection strengths between hexagonal units. An output is supplied to a Phantom (tm) robot that applies corrective force fields to the subjects limb endpoint.

We are working from the assumption that typing the cortical surface model to the actual cortical surface activity will act as a form of information compression, allowing a minimal representation of input output relations between limb muscular stretch and corrective force generation applied to limb endpoint during treadmill walking. Ultimately we'd like to see if the neural portion of the loop can be removed entirely without significantly degrading walking behavior.

The model is currently being implemented on a cluster of x86 machines running the Phar Lap ETS real time operating system. Models are written in C++ right now, but I plan to transition them to an XML style language I'm developing that facilitates evolutionary computing. That's a long term, and somewhat vanity, project.

[sui generis]

58. Domo Arigato, Mr. Roboto

:P

Well as an indication that artificial superintelligence is likely more philosophical than real on this side of the keyboard at the moment I just went on a giant long ontological football dig (my vanity projects), added some personal wit and a brilliant rejoinder or two, synthesized abdullaev to laterally-interconnected self-organizing map algorithms, had a glorious insight or two, prepared a novel and readable conclusion, actually got up and peed, in the bathroom, answered the phone, diddled someone else's data for a workgroup project I'm on and returned just in time to drop my DU window while flickering through thirty screens looking for my belated reply.

At this point, I think I need a beer instead of another shot at it.

I'm a cog guy; but none of that matters now. Did paper tape on a honeywell 4/16 with shared 40x80 BW C.R.T. and a room full of teletypes (and paper tape readers) when I was just a wee prepube nerd in Germany some time in the last century. This was well before the floppy disk was invented, after which the cassette Commodore Vic, Timex, TRS-80, Tandy, PC and I think there was a Rainbow? in there somewhere with an effed up motherboard. At one point I think I had thirty languages, which of course today means 29 dead languages, have written OS, pseudoobject layers, middleware, you name it in every industry known to the SEC and a few better left unknown, so I'm really really applied now.

Where is that beer.

Will keep in touch.

[Teaser]

63. I really didn't understand a word you said...:)

but it sounds like you had a fun afternoon.

Have a guinness on me.

[Double T]

7. Technology might be able to 'sustain' life with machines and drugs.......

but I'm certain the 'Quality of Life' for the sustained individual would REALLY SUCK.

[Subdivisions]

8. No. But the technology that will help us live substantially longer

is being developed.

Scientists have isolated the gene, and the enzymes, that control aging and are currently working on gene therapies that will allow humans to live up to 200 years.

[Warpy]

9. As someone who lives in pain

I certainly hope not. Shedding this body will be one of my greatest pleasures.

[Subdivisions]

10. LOL! n/t

[Subdivisions]

33. Umm...I can't believe I misread your post. I don't recall you saying

that you were in pain and I PROFUSELY APOLOGIZE for the LOL. I assumed you were poking fun at yourself.

The reason for the LOL was because I too would like to shed my body because I carry around a few extra pounds and am wracked with arthritis.

Again, I am very sorry and I wish you well.

[Generic Other]

66. Our thoughts, memories and activities will be uploaded

into some artificial lifeforms who will live on in our places.

[skids]

11. Yes.

The obstacles to indefinite biological lifespan are not as insurmountable as some seem to think.

As to whether our minds can take it, that's another matter open to conjecture. And of course there is really no cure for a 4 ton truck upside the head.

But in a world where we can regrow organs from vetted stem cells, old age will fall to medical science eventually.

In the meantime, I'd just be happy with reduced aging symptoms and a cure for most cancer. Those should be all acheivable within the next 15 years or so, since the only real thing holding them up is caution -- some of the entirely appropriate variety, and some of the corrupt profiteering variety.

Oh and I know that, trial results pending, they've pretty much cured cavities with BCS3-L1 in Britain, but it would be nice if they learned how to regrow teeth too. Still have all mine but they are worse for the wear. (I must remind myself to french kiss a British babe if they roll it out there and the FDA drags it's feet here. :evilgrin: )

All that assumes of course that we still have enough of a civil infrastructure to support the researchers. Given the general movement towards selfish bastardome we as a race seem to be taking, and the hell due to pay for past "sins", that is also up for debate.

I just hope that when an advance is made, it is shared, and not ransomed at a premium.

[lpbk2713]

13. Can't we work on curing stupidity first?

[Hav]

15. .

No, it is impossible when it's that far advanced :(. I'm really sorry.

[Horse with no Name]

28. That seems to be a terminal case.

No helping that one without an "oz" transplant--a brain, a heart, and courage.

[shadowknows69]

14. If we do

I guarantee it will only be the top 1% getting the immortality pills. Them and a selection of the best slaves.

[Dulcinea]

17. No.

Death is the great equalizer. It will happen to everyone eventually.

[OneBlueSky]

18. why would we want to? . . . n/t

.

[KittyWampus]

19. If you're willing to do the work, it's already possible to cast off

your body and take up another at will.

People need to read Patanjali... or the work of Eliphas Levi for that matter.

[shadowknows69]

27. Well you can just stay right the hell outta mine

until I'm done with it.B-)

[Red Right and BLUE]

36. lmao n/t

[Red Right and BLUE]

21. I hope not.

We are meant to live and die. It's a huge part of what makes us human.

[Teaser]

22. "meant" by whom

If death is god's plan, then god's plan sucks.

[Red Right and BLUE]

34. What's so wrong with death?

It's murder I take issue with.

We've been born, and dying, since the beginning of time. Unless some of you know something about this that I don't... spill the beans! ;)

[Teaser]

56. I'm working on it

see the above.

[sui generis]

25. our ability to cogitate and choose makes us human

our desire to avoid "fate".

Some of us don't plan to go quietly into that long night. . . .

[texastoast]

30. Screwup - deleted

[Red Right and BLUE]

35. I said "is is part"

not "it is". Personally I welcome it, as I do believe in reincarnation.

[NashVegas]

64. No, That's Just Fear and Ego

That makes us human.

[LeftHander]

26. Will we ever cure warts?

As we watch them rise to an unknown size, imagination seemingly it's only limit, only wondering if we can make them go away, never asking if we should keep them, where do you keep your compound W?

[Individualist]

29. ...or the common cold?

[onecent]

44. Old Edgar Cayce remedity for Warts..and I've seen it work on

three different people. My dad, my son and a good friend.

Take a cotton ball - put castor oil on the cotton ball and tape to the wart. Do this for 4 - 7 days... while you are sleeping. (or awake if you want).

My friend had to have a wart removed from under a fingernail...and I hadn't talked to her for a while. The wart was coming back, requiring more surgery. I told her about this and she was overwhelmed! It has never come back.

[texastoast]

31. Hell no

Look how long it took us to think of an adhesive strip on a sanitary napkin or even an inverted ketchup bottle.

[Red Right and BLUE]

37. Hahaha! eom

[lumberjack_jeff]

38. No. Then they'd have to call it something else. n/t

[lumberjack_jeff]

39. Physicists postulate an infinite number of universes.

<head trip>
The state of a subatomic particle cannot be determined, only given probability. It is theorized that each particle which takes "path a" creates universe a. If it takes "path b" it creates universe b.

If this is true, your consciousness resides in an infinite number of NoMoreMyths, each taking a slightly (or not-so-slightly) different life path.

I find it hard to believe that consciousness which is so interdependent on quantum processes disappears with the loss of the bodies in which they reside.
</head trip>

Physicists are making discoveries daily which have major metaphysical implications. Will it be possible to record consciousness? Not soon. I suspect that our self-identity is much more complex than can be described by neurons and chemical transmission.

[Beelzebud]

40. Not in our lifetimes.

[lumberjack_jeff]

41. That's a funny response...

if you think about it.

Cure death in my lifetime? If my lifetime is infinite, is it really a "lifetime"?

But on the off chance, I think it's a good idea to invest in Craftsman tools. That warranty may pay off. ;)

[TheFriedPiper]

42. LIFE is a sexually transmitted terminal illness....discuss

[sui generis]

46. I'm still stuck on the holy roman empire

which was neither holy, nor roman, nor an empire.

[onecent]

43. I think I'd like to cure Life.....LOL n/t

[Spinoza]

45. Immortality (with eternal youth) would be great

for a small minority. If everyone was immortal, however, the world would quickly become unlivable and unbearable. (For a starter children would virtually have to be outlawed. And what gives the present-immortal-generation the moral right to ban future generations?)

Still, I would personally love to see where the human race is in a hundred years, a thousand years, a million years and 10 billion years. But I've always loved science fiction.

[newspeak]

47. well, I'm into other worlds, dimensionality

why would I want to be stuck in this body forever? Reincarnating conscious energy would be much better.:hippie:

[cynatnite]

50. That's why the immortals on Highlander are all sterile

I just want another few hundred years. Not too much to ask for, IMO.

[Vidar]

48. Rather looking forward to exiting my screwed-up existence, myself.

Maybe I'll do better next time.

[yasmina27]

51. Good grief, I hope not!

Whatever is next in our existence must be better than this morass we currently inhabit! If it weren't for my 2 girls, I'd be ready to exit now and try again in a few hundred years - maybe.

In my next life I'm coming back as a house cat - I only have to eat, sleep,sh$% and knead on the chest of my owner! Either that, or as a good friend says, I'm coming back as a librarian in a school for the deaf! (no offense meant to either cats or deaf persons!)

[DireStrike]

52. Only for the rich

There was a scifi book about this...

[onenote]

53. Not if the right to lifers have their way

since they'll probably oppose the scientific research that would be necessary to extend life....

[mccoyn]

54. Its going to take a lot, but I'm hopeful.

My hope is that medical science will advance enough that I can survive to be about 150. At that point there will probally be an anti-ageing treatment, but it won't do me much good. I'll have to download my brain into a computer connected to the internet. This strategy of immortality uses far less resources than trying to keep a biological alive. My decendants will have to maintain the server that I "run" on, along with other family. Eventually, the energy requirements will over tax the earth and the servers will have to be launched into space to run on solar powered satilites. All this needs to have proper redundancy. Eventually, all the solar powered satilites will comprise a Matrioshka Brain.

I am very hopeful.

[Cornerstone]

57. Hi nomoremyths here's a different kind of thought to your 'wandering'?

Nomoremyths you do know that that means Bush and the Right wing will live forever don't ya? Did that thought kill your 'imagination?' Maybe death ain't so bad, eh? :-)

[guinivere]

59. Good grief, I hope not.

There are plenty of diseases that need dealing with first. Starting with the common cold.

The quality of a lot of people's lives just plain suck. That should be worked on.

Messing with the natural balance of things isn't a good idea.

[Xithras]

60. Sure, by 2030 it may be a reality

It would get a bit uncomfortable for a while, but the advantage of immortality is that we'd get to live long enough to see the consequences of our actions. Knowing we'll be around in 1000 years means that we'll have to think about the repercussions our current actions will have 200, 500, and 1500 years into the future. We'll also move towards more sustainable living and building techniques that will be better for the environment...will people REALLY want to buy a stucco fortress in a suburb that will fall over in 75 years when they know they'll be needing shelter for the next 5000? Probably not.

As to the reality of it ever happening, a computer scientist and biologist named Aubrey de Gray wrote a paper several years ago describing the seven components to the aging process that will need to be defeated to stop aging and create an effective immortal. They are:

1. Loss and atrophy or degeneration of cells. This element of aging is particularly important in tissues where cells cannot replace themselves as they die, such as the heart and brain.

2. Accumulation of cells that are not wanted. These are (a) fat cells, which tend to proliferate and not only replace muscle but also lead to diabetes by diminishing the body's ability to respond to the pancreatic hormone insulin, and (b) cells that have become senescent, which accumulate in the cartilage of our joints. Receptors on the surface of such cells are susceptible to immune bodies that de Grey believes scientists will in time learn how to generate, or to other compounds that may make the cells destroy themselves without affecting others that do not have those distinctive receptors.

3. Mutations in chromosomes. The most damaging consequence of cell mutation is the development of cancer. The immortality of cancer cells is related to the behavior of the telomere, the caplike structure found on the end of every chromosome, which decreases in length each time the cell divides and therefore seems to be involved with the cell's mortality. If we could eliminate the gene that makes telomerase -- the enzyme that maintains and lengthens telomeres -- the cancer cell would die.

4. Mutations in mitochondria. Mitochondria are the micromachines that produce energy for the cell's activities. They contain small amounts of DNA, which are particularly susceptible to mutations since they are not housed in the chromosomes of the nucleus.

5. The accumulation of "junk" within the cell. The junk in question is a collection of complex material that results from the cell's breakdown of large molecules. Intracellular structures called lysosomes are the primary microchambers for such breakdown; the junk tends to collect in them, causing problems in the function of certain types of cells. Atherosclerosis, hardening of the arteries, is the biggest manifestation of these complications. To solve this difficulty, de Grey proposes to provide the lysosomes with genes to produce the extra enzymes required to digest the unwelcome material. The source of these genes will be certain soil bacteria, an innovation based on the observation that ground that contains buried animal flesh does not show accumulation of degraded junk.

6. The accumulation of "junk" outside the cell. The fluid in which all cells are bathed -- called extracellular fluid -- may come to contain aggregates of protein material that it is incapable of breaking down. The result is the formation of a substance called amyloid, which is the material found in the brains of people with Alz­heimer's disease. To counter this, de Grey proposes vaccination with an as-yet undeveloped substance that might stimulate the immune system to produce cells to engulf and eat the offending material.

7. Cross-links in proteins outside the cell. The extracellular fluid contains many flexible protein molecules that exist unchanged for long periods of time, whose function is to give certain tissues such qualities as elasticity, transparence, or high tensile strength. Over a lifetime, occasional chemical reactions gradually affect these molecules in ways that change their physical and/or chemical qualities. Among these changes is the development of chemical bonds called cross-links between molecules that had previously moved independently of one another. The result is a loss of elasticity or a thickening of the involved tissue. If the tissue is the wall of an artery, for example, the loss of distensibility may lead to high blood pressure.

And that's it. Fix those seven issues, and you stop aging. Now here's the cool thing...except for #2 and #5, all of these are being researched RIGHT NOW and solutions to them are being developed. de Grey believes that the seven issues will be overcome in the next 25 years, making us immortal by the early 2030's. Even less optomistic researchers, when the numbers are placed in front of them, predict that all of these issues will be solved by the end of the century.

Will you truly be immortal then? Of course not. Step out in front of a bus and you'll be just as dead. Plug your arteries with cheeseburgers and you'll still have a coronary. Catch a fatal disease and you'll still die. What this will do is stop the AGING process. Death will change from being an inevitable, to being dependent on luck and foresight.

As for overpopulation, I'd simply support a mandate declaring that sterilization is part of the process...become immortal, and you aren't allowed to have any more kids. You also won't be allowed to retire.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

61. Read the passage in Gulliver's Travels about the island of

the immortals (Laputa?).

They grow old but can't die.

By the time my grandmother died at the age of 100, not one of her bodily systems functioned properly. She couldn't even swallow without choking. Death finally came for her during an afternoon nap, and while a major figure in our family was gone, there was also a sense of relief, because her last six months or so were pretty miserable.

[NashVegas]

65. Are You Kidding? I'd Be So Bored!

Live long enough, and nothing will surprise you, ever.

[Cameron27]

67. self -delete