"He wanted it, and I gave it to him"

[CatWoman]

You think they will put those words on Deborah LeFave's tombstone?

[H2O Man]

1. She is a pathetic human being.

The few moments I've seen of this interview with her merely reinforces the image of a shallow, self-centered offender.

[CatWoman]

4. I was hoping to hear you on Washington Journal this morning

:hi:

[H2O Man]

6. I tried ......

I'd have enjoyed talking to Mr. Novak.

[RoyGBiv]

42. The police recording ...

The recording the police got of her conversation with the kid while they were working on arresting her was what really floored me. The woman is disgusting. I mean, she made him "pinky swear" his parents weren't home. PINKY SWEAR!?!?!?

Feh.

:puke:

[TahitiNut]

57. She was/is obviously still an emotional 12-year-old.

She was clearly regressing to pre-adolescence in that phone conversation, retreating to some "safe place" in her mind that was before she herself was raped. I don't regard that as unusual for young adults who've had some traumatic emotional experience growing up, just far more evident in Ms. LeFave's behavior.

One of the other things I've noticed with people who have severe adjustment disorders and difficulties coping is that when they're attractive, they get far, far less compassion in support groups and even in counseling. Most of folks who go through life as ordinary homely people have little appreciation for the "world" as someone who's head-turningly attractive faces it.

"Shit! I wish I had your problems!" is the typical reaction. But few of us can imagine how surrealistic it must be to try to connect with the world as others see it (and the difficulties most experience) when we age without overcoming the same challenges and hurdles. It clearly results in atrophied emotional development. When coupled with an adolescent experience of being sexually assaulted, since traumas always cause some scar tissue that inhibits growth, the resulting continuum of emotional maturity becomes enormously contorted.

A "support system" of compassionate peers is essential for personal growth. She's one of the least likely individuals to have gotten this - in the future, as well.

Believe it or not, she is truly fucked ... and fucked up ... and the prognosis is grim. I, for one, wouldn't want to be in her shoes for all the sushi in Hiroshima.

[WinkyDink]

103. Say what? Now beautiful people have it TOUGH? Yeah, I see

that a lot in magazines, in movies, and on television.
Aren't there studies that show they get better treatment from teachers and employers?

[TahitiNut]

108. Q.E.D.

First of all, let's try to be clear that the hurdles we overcome in growing up are what make us adults. Every difficulty and every problem is a "learning experience." There is a great deal of Truth in the maxim "That which doesn't kill you makes you stronger." Most of us are familiar with the paradigm of the egg: the aborning bird/chicken must bust out on their own. The very act of hatching is the infant's first challenge and failure to leap that hurdle unassisted leads to death.

I've personally seen and dealt with "at risk" teens and maladjusted adults whose 'world' didn't present the same hurdles that we ordinary ("homely") people regard as typical - so typical that we rarely even think about it. I had a close friend whose daughter was one of these "golden childs" -- heads would turn when she entered a room. She had a manner and appearance that charmed people male and female, young and old. Her path was smoothed during all her growing-up years. Teachers were glad to answer her questions. Professors were glad to give her better grades. Waiters served her first. Cops didn't give her tickets. I spent YEARS watching the behavior of people around her and examining my own knee-jerk propensities. Then, some shit truly hit the fan and she was singularly incapable of dealing with the adjustment. As happens, her youthful and energetic appearance faded and people treated her VERY differently. Her 'world' changed, but people ("peers") around her didn't even begin to comprehend the change as she saw it.

It's an interesting mixture of reactions ... some habitually self-centered (what she could do for me: float my boat) and others resentful (what? someone with YOUR gifts asking poor ME for help with something I've faced all my life?). Together, they add up to very poor individual development. And the prognosis is poor.

[H2O Man]

106. At this point,

the only "group" that we can say for sure this woman belongs in is one for sex offenders. Treatment in forensic groups is not enhanced by the compassion that would be required to accept, on face value, that this woman's claims of being the victim of rape. Instead, I would suggest that when we look at her complete presentation, we see a person who: {1} refuses to take responsibility for her actions; {2} blames other people, including her victim; {3} has told numerous lies to make herself look like the victim; and {4} has enough intelligence to have identified the "excuses" for her behavior that society too often accepts.

Her use of "baby talk" on the phone could be associated with some type of regression. However, that is not the only explanation. If an adult male offender gives stuffed animals to a potential victim that he has targeted, one could view it as a sign that he is regressed to the state of playing with children's toys, or one could see it as a tactic used to create an atmosphere where they are more likely to be able to victimize the child. At this point, it seems worth considering what are issues are involved in this sex offender's background, including the possibility of past abuse. But it is essential that nothing she says be accepted on face value.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

80. She creeps me out big time

And I'm sorry but pretty isn't everything. If what was inside of her was on the outside she'd look like the Shoe Bomber.

[malaise]

95. What's more pathetic is the way

MSM is using this rubbish for ratings. I'd rather see a discussion on Diebold machines or an indepth report on Bob Ney's criminality.

Edit - add.

[H2O Man]

101. I think that MSNBC

could do viewers a favor by covering both types of stories. Certainly there can and should be more attention paid to issues involving Diebold, and the threat that computerized voting holds. I can remember in 2004, asking my older son if it would be hard to change the tally on any given set of machines. After he quit laughing, he gave me a brief idea of how easy it would be. I think that the "over 40" crowd tends to have less of an idea of how a few people could compromise an election, than the "under 30" folks. However, in terms of the criminality of the Ney-types, we elders have more examples of the absolute "lack of moral compass" that allows these parasites to pose another threat to the social order.

The issue of the female sex offender also provides the opportunity to have a frank and open discussion on some issues that have too long been avoided in our society. For many years, there has been a false impression that crimes including domestic violence and sexual abuse are committed by males exclusively. This is nonsense. It is a sad combination of myth and lies. There has been some discussion of value -- even on MSNBC -- but it is difficult when they spend 50% or more of a report showing photos of her displaying her assets.

[malaise]

107. Good response

After I read Prof Freeman's paper I 2004, I knew the electionw as stolen in Ohio and just needed to find out how. This Diebold exposure is all the proof I need. And yes the U30 crowd sure are way more technologically saavy tham us O40s.

[Bucky]

113. TahitiNut got it: emotionally stunted at 12. She says she was raped @ 13

According to her Wikipedia profile, thats what's at the root of her atrocious behavior. Sex victims grow up to become sex victimizers. I'm not excusing her, but this should help explain her problem.

[LostinVA]

2. Who the heck is she?

[CatWoman]

7. the teacher who seduced the 14 year old boy

[Straight Shooter]

21. Don't stand, don't stand so, don't stand so close to me.

The teacher-student relationship is a major taboo, but it doesn't mean it doesn't happen and sometimes crushes go way too far, on either side or both sides.

I can understand, at least from a visual aspect, why this boy had fantasies about her. I don't know what *he* looks like or acts like, but pheromones are strange things. I do remember when I was in high school, one of my classmates, at 15, was sort of notorious for "dating" women in their early twenties. He looked like he was 19 or 20. He was the envy of all the boys, but the girls shied away from him because of his reputation.

But if she is mentally unstable, then both parties need serious help.

[bliss_eternal]

77. Sad though,

it doesn't seem she'll get any help for what her issues are on house arrest. Or maybe these aspects of her rehabilitation were just left out of the interview. :shrug:

Painful interview to watch. She seemed rather clueless and to not "get it." Sad.

[Truthiness Inspector]

3. So strange

That statement is remorseless, then to see her saying she should be in jail. She probably said the last part to appear remorseful.

[susanna]

88. It's funny you mention that...

...because the other night I saw an interview with her. The interviewer mentioned that for most 14-year-old boys, what happened might have been considered a fantasy come true.

She said something like, "that's just ridiculous." As if she thought that would make her look better or something. Unfortunately, it fell very flat emotionally. She did not seem to understand why people would say such a thing, which struck me as odd in and of itself. Then she had no idea how to answer it. So, instead, she picked something she thought would work. At least that was my take.

Now, I am not saying that it was some sort of "fantasy come true" myself, but for all the comedians out there, some folks obviously feel that way. The upshot is it was just weird her saying "that's ridiculous." It just did not jive with her body language or eye contact. Really strange.

[Booster]

5. I just don't understand why the networks give this woman any

time at all on TV. If it was a man, we'd have hung him by now. I really hate the thought that the networks are giving us what they think we want to see - shudder. God, I hope that's not the kind of thing we want to see.

[tridim]

19. Up Next: Internet sex predators caught on tape

Apparently lots of people like watching stories about underage sex. Probably says more about the audience than anything.

[BlueStorm]

84. Your sig line is really disturbing tridim...

It's actually making me shudder, lol!

Blue

[Berry Cool]

22. And if she was ugly,

she'd be in prison and they'd throw away the key.

[blonndee]

27. I agree. They're glorifying this woman, "celebritizing" her if you will.

It makes me ill to see this kind of thing inundating the "news." Besides that: this, THIS is what the media thinks should get priority. Not that it shouldn't make the news at ALL, but it's just like the freaking Jonbenet crap, the OJ crap, the Britney Spears-drops her baby-drives with the baby on her lap-is pregnant again crap.

No wonder Americans are so fucking ignorant.

[July]

32. Yep, and she's just as much a perv as the creepy, ugly, worn,

ancient skeevo flashing girls on their way home from school. But her pretty little face makes her "interesting."

[Ready4Change]

44. Double standard.

Yah, if she were a male teacher he'd be unknown and in jail right now. Swap him with this Clone Pageant bleach blond, orange tanned whatever she is, and she's headlines for months. Put her on the cover and the magazines sell. Flash her picture, and viewers stick around to catch another sneak-peek.

I admit that, at first glance, she seems attractive. But the more, and closer I look, the more artificial and lifeless she seems. Unfortunately, most people don't view their news that critically anymore.

[lapfog_1]

8. I've dated a bipolar person who decided that they didn't need

their meds anymore. All I can say is holy crap. If she is a bi-polar, she could have been doing
lots of destructive things... not rational.

[Texasgal]

34. THANK YOU!

GOOD GOD! This thread is a real pisser.

[RB TexLa]

89. I dated one too, and yes she would become hyper-sexual during

manic phases but she still knew the difference between right and wrong.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

9. Perhaps something like

I told you I was sick.... (Physically of course)

[TomClash]

10. Nothing

It's a stupid issue.

What do you call a 14 year old boy who gets conjugal visits with Deborah Lafave?

Lucky.

[Captain Hilts]

13. No. 'Abused'. nt

[TomClash]

97. No. Ridiculous nt

[Captain Hilts]

110. Minors haven't the judgement to make those decisions...

especially in relations with adults.

That's why they don't vote, etc.

[alcibiades_mystery]

112. But they're tried as adults at age 11

What a curious thing, that.

[Captain Hilts]

119. In exceptional cases. nt

[alcibiades_mystery]

121. LOL

Um, okay...:rofl:

[CatWoman]

15. well, I suppose a stupid issue

deserves a stupid post.

[TomClash]

98. Sure, with cute cats nt

[CatWoman]

109. and an even cuter sig line

[Atman]

11. Go rent "Private Lessons" and explain to me why LaFave got arrested.

I picked it up last weekend just for yucks, remembered it from when I was a kid. But I didn't remember it like this! The whole story revolves around a fifteen year old boy boinking the beautful maid, played by Sylvia Kristal (Emmanuel). And the kid in the movie is really a freakin' kid! It's the "25th Anniversary Special Edition" (it really warranted a SE? Why, yes! In the Director's Commentary it is revealed that the movie is still listed as one of Billboard's top grossing indi films of all time), and the sex scenes are amazingly explicit. The only thing I noticed was that in the new version, they pixelated and/or fuzzed any pubic hair.

Anyone who tried to make that movie today would be thrown in jail. As was LaFave. But in 1980 it was a mainstream motion picture mega hit. Go figure.

[Berry Cool]

37. Our society is still way too double-standarded about this.

On one hand it says boinking a beautiful older woman is every teenage boy's fantasy come true and celebrates it. On the other, it says that a teenage girl who lets a man boink her is a statutory rape victim. Only the law looks upon them as equal victims.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

81. As the law should

I sure don't want to live in a society where it is ever acceptable to prey upon someone in a weaker position.

[LibDemAlways]

105. An even earlier film, that wasn't explicit, and that

took pains to explain the reason for the mature woman/underaged boy sex was "Summer of 42" back in the early 70's. Soldier's wife during WWII loses husband and almost immediately takes a kid who had to be all of 13 to bed with her. Very mainstream movie and no controversy at all. Don't think that movie could find financing today.

[Generator]

12. Shite-I thought for sure this was a thread about congress!

[orpupilofnature57]

14. It was YA he wanted it and YA I gave it to him . Remorse ? 15 min

Who interviewed this Girl?

[Texasgal]

16. You guys are funny...

So...Andrea Yates gets a pass because she is "mentally" unstable... but not Debra LaFave?

I guess "different" crimes are okay with many of you?

[CatWoman]

18. get em, TG

:applause:

[Texasgal]

20. This is really a silly argument

who are "we" to say that something wasn't mentally wrong with her?

Geeeez... and I could pull up a MILLION andrea yates threads that say she is ill and needs help....

Good GOD!

I don't get it catwoman..really...I don't. :hi:

[Atman]

45. Not to mention that Yates KILLED FIVE CHILDREN!

LaFave fucked one teenaged boy. I'm sorry, but I do see a slight difference.

[Texasgal]

50. So I guess the mentally

disturbed can only commit a horrible crime in your eyes to be mentally incapacitated?

Hey! Guess no one is sick, ummm... unless they drown five kids?

[Atman]

53. You're losing it tonight, TG!

First you said DUers thought it was "OKAY" (in caps even!) for Yates to drown her kids. Now you want to put words in my mouth and say that no one is sick unless they drown five kids. I understand you're upset about this, that much is obvious. But you'd do your argument well to just stick to what people are actually saying or thinking, and not just making stuff up because it supports your position in a dramatic way. That's all. I'm not necessarily arguing with your general point, you're just doing a horrible job making it.

[Texasgal]

56. Ummm...NO.

I am not losing it at all.

I am posting on a message board...WTF?

[WinkyDink]

104. Ms. Yates didn't gussy herself up for a sit-down interview, either.

Perhaps Ms.LaFave used up all the cherry-red lipstick?

[blonndee]

28. Did this woman have a documented history of psychotic behavior?

Did experts testify on her behalf as to such?

[Texasgal]

33. Does it matter?

She has been treated for bi-polor disease... she is currently being treated. She admits that her behavior is due to this...

Like she KNEW when to be treated... JESUS. Most people DON'T!

Do you give Andrea Yates a pass?

[blonndee]

35. I'm just trying to determine whether the two are equivalent in the

way you suggested. No need to get all "Jesus" on me.

[Texasgal]

39. How would YOU know if they are

equivalent?

Have you treated her?

Sorry, but this crap pisses me off... Many on DU thought it was OKAY for Andrea Yates to drown her kids... she was "mentally unstable" but hey... if your blond and attractive and commit a sex crime you are a whore. Screw the mental issue... :eyes:

[blonndee]

43. What I'm trying to get at is, is there compelling evidence that

Lafave is suffering from some sort of psychotic "defect" or disability as there was with Yates? I think that's why people aren't giving Lafave a "pass" to the degree that Yates was given. Your post was primarily addressing DUers' response to the cases (which you found hypocritical, I guess? or something like that), so that's what I was trying to get at and figure out. I personally don't remember hearing about any documented and extensive history of such problems with Lafave, but I do when it comes to the Yates case.

And to be honest, please, I don't think anyone actually thought it was OKAY for Yates to have done what she did. I don't think that's an honest characterization of the response on DU.

I'm not taking a position one way or the other, at least not strongly, except on the media coverage of it, and I think her behavior was reprehensible, so I'm not trying to hide any motivations. I'm just trying to have an honest discussion.

edited for grammar

[Texasgal]

47. I believe in her interview

that she explained that she is being treated for bi-polar disease. She was also raped when she was a young girl... VIOLENTLY raped. She has a mental disorder. Do I agree with what she did? ABSOLUTELY NOT. Do I think she needs to be treated? Yes I do. Do I think the constant "hot for teacher" media blitz sucks? YES I DO.

If you don't believe me about Andrea Yates, do a search... it's all there. You may be surprised.

[Atman]

46. Bullshit.

Point to ONE POST in which anyone on DU thought it was "OKAY" to drown her kids. Total absolute BULLSHIT.

[Texasgal]

48. Ummm...never said that anyone said that

it was "okay" for her to drown her kids. :eyes:

There were plenty of post denouncing her sentence. That's what I am saying.

What give Yates a pass?

[Atman]

49. Actually, you did!

"Many on DU thought it was OKAY for Andrea Yates to drown her kids..."

It is from your post. Those are your words, verbatim.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=2147175&mesg_id=2147608

.

[Texasgal]

51. Many here thought it was okay

because she was "mentally ill" I never said that DU'ers celebrated... many though she shouldn't be in jail because she was "mentally ill"

[Atman]

54. Where did I say you said DUers "celebrated?"

You said DUers thought it was "OKAY." In all caps. NO ONE that I ever read on DU thought it was "OKAY" for Yates to kill her kids. And I never claimed you said anyone "celebrated." I'm just quoting your words, which, as a "DUer," I find very offensive.

[Texasgal]

55. Read it and weep.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1740833&mesg_id=1741320

That's just one.

If you want to split hairs on what I was trying to convey... many thought that Andrea Yates should not pay for her crime because she was mentally unstable at the time.

I want to know what the difference is.

[Atman]

59. Nothing to weep about. That post didn't convey what you said.

The poster never said it was "OKAY," or even intimated as much. The poster made a valid point about severe mental illness. Acknowledging a problem exists and calling it "OKAY" are two entirely different things.

It cannot be denied that Yates had severe mental problems which were documented throughout her medical history. Does this make her killing her kids "OKAY," or does the poster forgive them because of her mental state? Not in the post I just read, to which you provided the link.

I had a friend in the 1980's who was pretty messed up, but was otherwise fairly "normal" as long as he took his lithium. He moved out of his caretaker's house one summer, and I ran into him on the street corner one morning, he was screaming at traffic. I tried to talk him into my car to take him to his doctor, but he just kept screaming about being in New Jersey the night before and and getting into a fight with the entire New York Rangers hockey team (I was in Cocoa Beach, Florida at the time). I finally decided it was best not to be in a car alone with the guy, and called the police instead. But that is what the other poster is saying...some people really are severely fucked up, and "punishing" them after they've committed an act over which they really had no control serves no purpose whatsoever.

Now, I'm not saying LaFave falls into that category, although she did try to make the case on Lauer's show that she was abused as a kid and had mental problems. Really? Not sure I buy it, but then, not as much about her case has been revealed as was Yates'.

I think if you re-read the thread you'll see I'm not saying what either Yates or LaFave did was "OKAY." I am acknowleding what you refuse to...that mental illness exists and it is real.

[Texasgal]

60. Okay...okay...

Are you splitting hairs of the words "Okay"?

FUCK ME! :eyes:

Please...excuse my verbage of the word "OKAY". MaNy thought that Andrea Yates should not have to pay for her crime because she was mentally unstable. GOT IT NOW?

I have added more links...check them out.

[alcibiades_mystery]

116. A crime requires a criminal

The entire point of a defense by mental defect is that the actor doesn't have the requisite agency to be considered a criminal in the eyes of the law. That's the point. i know it's not a kindergarten level point, and that's hard for you to grasp, but it is the way a decent society conducts itself. We only punish people for acts that they have some control over. Wow! That's hard to understand, I know. But that's how decent societies operate. Any prosecution requires a minimum of agency, even if the charge is negligence that led to some other result. For example, a negligent homicide still requires that the agent was in some way knowingly negligent, even if he or she didn't intend the homicide. The problem with mental defect is that you do not meet this minimum threshold of agency. No decent society would allow criminal convictions where such a minimum threshold of agency is not met. That you WOULD allow a conviction lacking such a condition tells me all I need to know about your ethical character.

[kestrel91316]

78. Andrea Yates did not legally commit a crime. Her severe psychosis

prevented her from being held legally accountable for what she did, as is proper. She is acknowledged to be a danger to society because of her actions, and is receiving appropriate care and confinement.

Why do people confuse the uncontrollable acts of psychotics with the willful evil done by sociopaths???? Why the refusal to sympathize with those who are truly victims of fate???

[madmusic]

85. sociopaths????

So some aren't convinced she is bipolar because of a lack of long mental health history, but at the blink of an eye she is rightfully diagnosed as a sociopath?

Neat trick, Dr. kestrel91316.

[LostinVA]

94. Don't need to weep -- kestrel didn't say it was "okay"

Next?

[LostinVA]

93. Nope, again -- NO ONE said it was okay

[LostinVA]

92. Yes, you did say that

:eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes:

[Texasgal]

58. Another post:

On edit: Links f'ed up...sorry.

"Have you ever tried to convince a schizophrenic or other delusional person of the errors in their thinking??? It CANNOT be done."

Okay...so what makes THIS different from Lafave?

[Atman]

62. That was the same link you provided before...four times over.

Why? It still doesn't say what you claim it does, no matter how many times you provide the link!

[Texasgal]

66. Trying to get this working here..

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=702480&mesg_id=702648

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=2167349&mesg_id=2167666

"I have never felt anything for Andrea but the deepest pity. She had post-partum psychosis, a rare but real illness; but instead of her husband and other family members getting her the help she so desperately needed, everyone around her continued to act as though nothing was wrong with her. They were oblivious to reality."

[Atman]

69. I'm still not getting your point.

Everything you've posted so far only serves to SUPPORT the very points you're trying to refute.

[Texasgal]

71. Are you confused?

I am asking why there is a double standard here.

These are two women.

BOTH are mentally unstable.

Andrea Yates is declaired metally unstable in a court of law.

Debra Lafave has her charges dropped...why? Maybe because she was mentally ill?

Both have been treated for mental illness.

Many DU'ers think that Lafave is a tramp and should have gone to jail.

A LOT of Yates posters thought that Andrea needed help and not jail.

What is the difference here?

[Atman]

72. Well, I guess I disagree with "many" and "a LOT" of DUers.

But by inference, "many" and "a lot" of DUers don't share that view. Cest la vie.

I will say it again, though...there is a serious difference between screwing a teenaged boy and killing five helpless children. I big difference. I don't see a double standard...I'm more curious as to why you equate the two.

[Texasgal]

74. You are correct.

I am not equating the killing of five children to screwing a young boy.

I am just pointing out the hypocrisy here. That's all.

Many... NOT ALL..btw.. thought that Yates should have been given a pass from a jail term because she was mentally unstable. Why is it that Lafave doesn't get that same treatment?

[kestrel91316]

79. There is a world of difference between what you can hold a

severely delusional psychotic schizophrenic responsible for, and what you can hold an unhappy, confused person responsible for.

This girl is a lot closer to the latter.

[madmusic]

87. an unhappy, confused person

Is only worthy of compassionate conservatism.

[madmusic]

86. What is the difference here?

Sex.

[LostinVA]

96. I don't think Lafavae is a tramp

But I've seen no compelling medical evidence that she has a medical condition. If and when that appears, I'll rethink my opinion. I don't think Latourneau is a socipath, but neither does she have a mental illness. She overstepped a line.

I don't think ANY woman is a "tramp."

[LostinVA]

91. No one on DU thought it was OKAY Andrea Yates killed her kids

NO ONE. Please find me one post that says that. Guess what? You won't. You're just pulling stuff out of thin air now to prove some nonexistent point. Many of us who are actually educated about mental illness knew she should be legally and morally "excused" for th killings, and needed help, not imprisonment and censure.

Why can people not understand what psychoses is?

Again, I don't know the medical history of this women, but I do of Yates, and that's who YOU were talking about.

[Berry Cool]

38. I think she needs help, just like Andrea Yates

The difference is, people hate and revile what Yates did, but they think what LaFave did was way kewl.

[Texasgal]

40. It;s disgusting isn't it?

She DOES need help!

[LostinVA]

90. Andrea Yates was psychotic when she killed her children, so yes --

She gets a pass. I'm not sure about this woman. If she is a sociopath, then no -- she doesn't get a pass. One is a mental illness and one is a personally disorder. Beyond apples and oranges.

[alcibiades_mystery]

115. That's 'science-y" talk...don't disrupt the spluttering outrage with

science, please.

It feels better to be spluttering with outrage than it does to approach complex issues of illness and agency like an adult...

:-)

[orpupilofnature57]

99. Actually, I thought her husband should have been Prosecuted !

for negligence.

[alcibiades_mystery]

114. Actually, you have to prove mental defect in each case

It's not a "general" sort of thing, you know?

If they could prove mental defect in LeFave's case, then she shouldn't have been convicted of a crime. Apparently, they didn't prove mental defect, so she was. Now, if you don't believe in mental illness at all, and you don't believe that it is a verifiable phenomenon, and you don't believe in post-partum psychosis, that's one thing. There's not much I can say to a person who refuses to believe what the entire community of psychiatrists has consistently proven on a scientific basis for years on end, and what is blatantly obvious to anyone who's ever seen it in action. I just ignore such people, because they are beyond reasoned argument. If you don't agree that mental defect is a legitimate defense against criminal prosecution, I also don't have much to say to you, since criminal prosecution in any decent society relies on a theory of agency that particular mental illnesses makes impossible. It is a brutal society that punishes people for acts they cannot control; if that's the kind of society you want to live in, I suggest you start one yourself. Those of us with the slightest hint of ethics or decency will, I suggest, prefer to live in a society that only punishes people for purposeful acts.

[Tinksrival]

17. DUH!!!

Deborah, tell us something we don't know.......on second thought, just shut the hell up.

[pooja]

23. I can't understand why she would want to boink a kid... but what

pubescent boy doesn't fantasize about the sexy hot teacher or whatever... Hello, what was the Graduate about. Also, I am female and I had some hot teachers. I normally dated college boys before I left highschool... so some hot teacher, 22 ish teaching me math is hot.. and believe me I think I know what I was doing... It wasn't that long ago that 15 and 16 yr old girls were married off... 20 was old maidish.

Anyway, I don't understand her. But the boy--he's still saying "hell yeah"

[Texasgal]

25. Ummm...here we go

maybe she mentally unstable?

[Berry Cool]

41. So it's OK for pubescent boys to boink their teachers, but if a girl

of the same age boinked her male teacher, see how long that would last.

I believe {i]The Graduate made it clear that Mrs. Robinson wasn't a real stable person.

We also don't life life anymore like we did back when 15-year-olds and 16-year-olds were married off. There's no comparison.

[Irreverend IX]

52. Well, life may be a bit different...

But it takes longer than a few decades for human psychology and development to change. 14 and 15-year olds are often as sexually aware as a person in their 20s. Historically, 14 and 15-year olds have led armies. I think the "double standard" regarding student-teacher relationships is aware to the fact that girls are socialized to be submissive and obedient more than boys are. A male teacher thus has a significant ability to coerce girls to have sex with him, while female teachers have less coercive power over male students. Add to this the fact that girls are psychologically less likely to want casual flings with a teacher, even one they find attractive, and you have a strong likelihood that any sexual relationship between a female student and male teacher has some coercive quality to it. You can't tell me LeFave had to force her hormone-charged students to hook up with her. I don't think this action is becoming of a teacher, just like a student/TA relationship in college, but I don't see why it's "abuse" or a crime.

[filer]

24. It's all so sad.

Barbie is mentally unstable. What next?

[CatWoman]

26. Ken is a transvestite?

:shrug:

Aqua Man drowns?

[SoCalDem]

29. Cat..Cat..Cat

you KNOW she's cute.. Cute cancels out guilty :eyes:

especially HOT cute :)

[CatWoman]

30. speaking of "cute"

I love that pic in your sig line :)

[az chela]

31. She was on Matt lauer

after listening to her for about 10 minutes,I was actually getting so pissed I wanted to smack her!!!!What a stupid conceited whore she is.I had to turn her off

[Texasgal]

36. Might as well SLAP Andrea Yates too...

Stupid f'ing BI-POLAR PEOPLE! :eyes:

[Herman Munster]

61. I laugh when people say the 14 year old was a victim

If I was 14 and boinked this teacher, I would feel like the luckiest guy in the world. What 14 year old guy wouldn't want to boink a hot older woman? I know at 14 all my guy friends and I were obsessed with who was having sex and getting girls. This kid was the envy of all his friends. I wouldn't feel like a victim or feel scarred or anything like that if I was him.

If anything, the boy should have kept his big mouth shut. I wouldn't have bragged to my friends about this and gotten this woman in trouble and get all this media frenzy going on.

Now, if it was a 14 year old girl, obviously it would be different. Because girls are different from boys!!!! Biologically and emotionally very, very different at that age. Now, it can be debated why this is culturally but it is the way it is.

A guy will be much less traumatized by an experience like this than a girl would be.

[Texasgal]

63. Disgusting. N/T

[Herman Munster]

64. what is disgusting?

[Texasgal]

68. This:

If I was 14 and boinked this teacher, I would feel like the luckiest guy in the world. What 14 year old guy wouldn't want to boink a hot older woman?

Like I said....disgusting.

[orpupilofnature57]

100. what the word Boink? maybe ,but the idea of sex with an older woman

does appeal to good portion of male teenagers .

[Captain Hilts]

111. The age/maturity disparity creates problems...

that sex with another 14 year old would not.

I.e. exploitation.

[orpupilofnature57]

118. You have a point.

[Atman]

67. The unspoken truth!

I think women don't understand the teenaged male mind. It is fueled by one thing and one thing only: HORMONES. You get a boner reading math books. You get a boner looking at a piece of dirt. I don't recall the comedian I saw a while back who observed that from the day a boy hits puberty until the day he dies, a man's life is basically a non-step quest for sex. Hyperbole, but he has a point.

I remember in PE class, sitting around with "the guys" before class...it was the daily update on who saw a titty or actually maybe even touched one. I'm not making excuses for LaFave, she should have known better. But to say this kid was a victim of anything is laughable.

[RoyGBiv]

73. So you laugh at sexual abuse ...

How quaint.

As a person who was sexually abused in his teens, I really have a few fine, "delete this post" type of words I'd like to say to you right now, but I'll just let you use your imagination.

But to put a fine point on it, you make me ill.

[Samantha]

65. These responses to your thread are extremely disappointing

While the story does have extremely salacious threads, the importance of it being publicized cannot be underestimated.

Her bi-polar disorder did enhance her highs and greatly stimulate her sexual desires to the extent she was out of control. The main point the story drove home -- I thought in an effort to educate people about this problem -- was that she was mistakenly being treated for depression. The medication used for treatment for depression only aggravates a highly stimulated sexual desire provoked by a bi-polar manic high. In other words, it only adds insult to an already-existing injury -- to a devastating sexual extent.

By revealing the wrong diagnosis of her mental disorder and the subsequent devastating sexual consequences the medicine for depression had on that disorder, the broadcast of this show should send a strong signal to the not-so-small percentage of Americans suffering from this disorder (is it something like 20%?) that the proper diagnosis of the disorder and the appropriate treatment is imperative. A mistaken diagnosis and the wrong medicine played a major role in her sexual exploits with the underaged young man. She is now being properly treated and admits she was out of control and probably should be in jail.

The disappointing thing is that so many DU'ers mercilessly criticized her without even noting the extenuating circumstances. I am not a fan of this woman but I don't condemn her either. Her story particularly saddens me because my sister suffered from the same condition, had a mistaken diagnosis and suffered irreparable consequences from it.

This could happen to anyone who is bi-polar and the broadcast of this show carried that message. It's just a shame that point escaped comment here.

[bigdarryl]

70. You know what I don't give a flying fuck about

her supposed disorder she's a pervert that needs to be in PRISON!! and she might do it again after listening to her excuses on that show.

[Atman]

76. Oh dear lord

If you were just going to completly ignore the contents of the post, why did you bother responding to it at all?

[RoyGBiv]

75. I'll agree with what you say ...

But let me ask you this, because I will not presume to know your opinion.

Are you willing to give males in positions of power (teacher, etc.) who abuse teenaged girls or boys the same leeway in trying to find the root cause of the problem that leads them to be the way they are? I ask in part because our laws are constructed in such a way so that even those males who recognize the moral depravity of their desires and seek help tend to end up in jail rather than treatment, and when their cases are publicized, they are subjected to much harsher treatment than this woman has been, even in this thread.

If you are willing to allow that this search for root causes and the need for proper treatment is as at least important in males as it is in females who exhibit this behavior, then I'll grant you have made a good point without qualification. Otherwise, the point you made, which is still a good one, carries a qualifier of being inconsistent.

[Samantha]

82. Certainly a male suffering from bipolar disorder treated for depression

would seem to have his sexual maniac highs exasperated by medicine prescribed for treatment of depression. If this were a physical wound, as opposed to a mental disorder, the equivalent would be taking a person who had been shot and bombing them to make them better.

I don't think a distinction should be drawn between the sexes; bipolar disorder impacts men and woman in the same manner. Persons afflicted have tremendously enhanced sexual desires, the manic swings only stimulate those desires to an almost out of control fever, the drugs used to treat depression only ratchet an out-of-control sexual desire to an even-higher pitch.

It's just crazy to ignore the cause of this problem, to turn a deaf ear to the aggravation of it, and to verbally slander this ill woman because she happens to be beautiful. The woman has an illness which cannot be cured, but which can be controlled with a medicine like Lithium, but will only get worse with a medicine prescribed to treat depression. The same would be true for a man.

How can our society consider itself to be civilized when we take only a barbaric approach to treating mental disorders mistakenly diagnosed and inappropriately medically treated? Demanding incarceration for the afflicted and isolating them from society is that barbaric approach . We can do better than that.

And you know what, the poster above who simply doesn't give a flying fuck ... proved my point.

How exactly did we get here? Shame on us.

BUT PARTICULAR SHAME ON THOSE WHO DO NOT GIVING A FLYING FUCK ... perhaps it is they who should be isolated from society.

[hotforteacher]

83. Okay, so let me get this right:

1. Lafave is admitting to being mentally ill.
2. Lafave admitted to schlepping with a 14-year-old.
3. Andrea Yates killed her children after a long, documented history of severe mental illness and lied about it.

ERGO, Murder (infanticide) is equivalent to taking advantage of and fucking (lewd and lascivious battery) a teenager?

Fuck me if I'm wrong, but I don't see the correlation, or how these two are possible similar...the exception being that they were both different crimes committed by different women who are both (to varying degrees) mentally ill. I don't even see that the degree to which they are ill is similar.

So far, the only difference that I see is the media coverage and spin. The male student, who was described by his mother as "hormone racing", leaves a very distinct impression that he may have gotten off on it, although I would never suggest that an underage male could really be capable of making an adult decision to that magnitude. Making the comparison between Yates and Lafave is useless, and completely asinine. Yates had massive documentation from doctors stating how sick she was, and her husband REFUSED to acknowledge it...even went as far as to aid in impregnating her again after he knew how unstable she was. Lafave's husband just says "Thank you" after being told how beautiful his wife is. I find that repugnant.

This is like comparing Allen Ginsberg to this father of the year

Yeah, the dumbass is conventionally easy on the eyes. So was Ted Bundy at the time. I keep hearing these sensationalized accounts of female teachers preying upon young boys, and they always have this titillating angle to them. Fuck Matt Lauer for even interviewing the dipshit. Fuck Larry King for even BOTHERING to comment upon how BEAUTIFUL she is to her soon-to-be ex-husband. America is full of voyeurs, and the female teacher/male student thing is such a hackneyed blowjob-provoking story waiting to happen.

And FWIW, it IS worth discussing root causes of behaviors. Some medications do really fucked up things to people's already unbalanced neuropathology. Is this a get-out-of-jail-free card? No, but it lends CONTEXT to an interesting debate about mitigating circumstances surrounding the fallout. Hell, let's just string up the next person who brings up a salient and intelligent point. Andrea Yates does NOT belong in prison--that is an inappropriate setting for someone as mentally unhealthy as she is. And as far as statutory-type rape cases go, there are PLENTY of men that do not get locked up. Although I do find it interesting that in here, you might find people calling Lafave a "whore" or a "slut" whereas a man might be called a "rapist".

:wtf:

Crimes that involve sex and power are inherently convoluted.

[Fleshdancer]

117. oh the irony of "Hotforteacher" weighing in on the issue

:rofl:

I love the irony of your username for this particular discussion.

On a serious note, I agree that there is no comparison between the actions of Lafave and Yates.

[WinkyDink]

102. She looked to me to still be on the make.

[Beelzebud]

120. That pedophile should be in prison.

If she were a male, and her students were female.....

She'd be in prison and branded a pedophile.