Serious question for MEN here, re: Debra LaFave

[Sparkly]

Poll question: Serious question for MEN here, re: Debra LaFave

This case has raised some interesting issues, challenges to assumptions on all sides, and questions about gender equality under the law (in conflict with lack of gender equality in societal mores, etc.)...

So I want to ask this SERIOUSLY, for HONEST answers, without any agenda or presuppositions on my part!

This is for the MEN on DU only!!

The question is: Imagine when you were a 14-year-old boy. Imagine a teacher like Debra LaFave acting toward you exactly as she did toward her student -- apparently, flirting, kissing, picking him up and performing oral sex on him, intercourse in the classroom, socializing with you and a cousin, sex in the car as your cousin drove, etc...

I'm not saying you are like the boy in this case, but I'd like to know YOUR honest point of view -- not as you see it looking back as your adult self, but really as you'd have seen it then especially UP to the day that adults and the law became involved. There are no wrong answers except dishonest ones!!

(I can't make the poll encompass everything, so please post clarifications if you wish!!)

[TroglodyteScholar]

1. In all seriousness...

To bag a hot teacher in high school would've been the ultimate experience at the time, probably. Not until adulthood would one realize that, gee, maybe that was a bit effed up.

Edit: typo

[Sparkly]

2. Thanks for the serious answer.

I'm seriously curious, without an agenda except to understand it: How would you have felt looking back, and why?

[TroglodyteScholar]

12. Impossible to say...

There are way too many possible outcomes for a situation like that. Hard to look back on an event that never happened to me ;)

I suppose the emotional impact could range from continuing fondness to absolute resentment of the opposite sex.

[warrens]

122. I would probably have looked at it as a not particularly fond memory

At the time, though, I doubt I would have had second thoughts.

[Bucky]

5. Exactly how I feel, too

Yes, she's getting this kid involved in sex with an adult long before he's ready to take on the responsibilities of a sexual relationship. For that matter, apparently before she is ready for any sexual responsibility, too.

But saying there's no harm done here is like saying there's no harm done if a kid gorges out on candy all the time, but doesn't end up getting a cavity. While I doubt this kid is emotionally damaged by all this, he's been dragged into a sick relationship and that will be his memory of how he first learned about sex. That's a personal tragedy and one that she had no right to inflict on this boy.

[Sparkly]

11. I'm just asking...

Was the damage more about the sex acts, or more about the social/legal ramifications when parents and the law got involved? Or would either alone be as damaging, or is it their combination, or what?

[Bucky]

36. yes, the media glare and peer reactions are part of the violation

There's a reason why it's called an intimate act. It should happen behind the privacy of a steamy car window or bush-shrouded park bench, not on TV.

[Sparkly]

38. Of course - that's why I asked about "up to" the point adults got involved

although that's hard to separate from the overall aftermath, which I asked about too...

[madmusic]

20. "that will be his memory"

She will be a very good memory. The investigation and all the media attention will be the bad memories. Would this be true for all guys? Maybe not, but his mom says he is doing fine.

[Sparkly]

29. I think it's interesting to separate those things out.

Which I will explain more later!

[madmusic]

21. But why would you think that?

[Yupster]

67. I also voted with the majority

I think where it would hurt me though is with relations with other kids, especially girls. For instance what parents of a 14 year old girl would want me around their daughter after having sex with the teacher.

[texasleo]

3. ok, I'm imagining it. Be back in 5 minutes.

:evilgrin:

[Sparkly]

14. lol

:rofl:

[NMDemDist2]

4. I gotta keep an eye on this one n/t

[Catchawave]

7. LOL....me too n/t

[Marr]

6. Honestly, I would've loved it at 17. But not at 14.

When I was 14 I wasn't really thinking about sex, and it seemed like a pretty intimidating idea. I would've been extremely put-off by sexual advances from a teacher, no matter how hot she was.

[Sparkly]

49. So, would she have gotten anywhere with you, do you think?

Could a woman like Debra LaFave have persuaded, coerced, or forced you into such an affair?

Thanks for your honest answer, btw. :hi:

[Opusnone]

8. Before puberty it may have been weird, but not that weird

There ARE double standards in humans, and this is one of them.

[Sparkly]

13. That's what I'm thinking about.

But I can only address it from one side of the gender equation. :hi:

[CarlVK]

9. I answered in the second to last category, but let me add this...

The teacher would have been cmopletely guilty of one of the worst things I can imagine - that is, abuse of power. Teachers are in such a position of power and trust, whether they are "hot" or not. Being in such a position makes them ultimately culpable for such abuses.

14 year old boys are not held to such culpability for obvious reasons. They are physically, mentally and emotionally not developed enough to live in a responsible adult relationship, even a purely "sexual one". They have been placed in the protectorship of schools and the teachers in them, and for those teachers to abuse that power and trust is reprehensible.

[Bucky]

10. Violated, but not harmed. First sexual experiences should be about love

This was using. This was rape. I hope she gets counseling. I hope he learns from this experience rather than is shaped by it. This alone, as an isolated experience won't damage him; but it does set him off in the wrong direction sexually.

[Name removed]

89. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[wakeme2008]

15. It does not make a difference Male or Female

IMHO, there are some 12-14 yo that would love to have sex with an older person. OTOH most would not. It is really is up to the mental outlook of the 12-14yo whither it is bad or not IMHO.

[Sparkly]

18. Do you think it's the same for both sexes, or different? nt

[wakeme2008]

22. Male would be a bigger percentage

but while I never did anything with two ~13 girls when I was 30 something but they came ON TO me more than once. Both I never allow myself alone with.

[undeterred]

44. But I think that most girls don't separate love and sex at that age

I think the outlook of boys is to want to "score" while girls are liable to mistake sex for love and be emotionally damaged by it.

[Sparkly]

52. That could be a difference.

Not to say girls don't have sexual feelings at that age, too.

[Ignacio Upton]

16. I sure as hell would've

Banging a hot teacher is one of the ultimately fantasies about being in middle or high school. I wouldn't regret it.

[Sparkly]

31. You seem to be in the majority!

Thanks for your honesty! :hi:

[Ready4Change]

17. Exactly as it has been portrayed, I'd have hated it.

The situations risking exposure, the "any and everywhere" aspects of it, the jockish Hi-5's? Totally not my thing. Had it been like that, I'd have been mostly a miserable wreck, and been glad when it was over. (Not that my hormones of the time wouldn't have been screaming for more.) Violated? If things were as stated, yes.

I think I would have recovered from the sexual abuses. To tell the truth, the guys Hi-5ing would have been worse. A constant dose of that would have turned me into a bitter recluse.

Now, I can imagine: Had this sort of thing happened to me in a much more private, secretive way, without the social pressures and exposure? My answer just might be completely different. Cut well over a decade of painfully shy neurosis out of my life? Yes, please.

[Sparkly]

23. Personal question for you (and others who answered as you did)

I'll try to phrase this to avoid a delete from the mods...

If you were a "miserable wreck," feeling "violated and abused," hating the public risks and hi-5's etc., would you have been able to respond physically?

[Marr]

25. Of course.

I remember that aspect of puberty very well. You can "respond", if I take your meaning, from the site of women, candy, or from a stiff breeze. You have no problem responding at that age, but it's no indication of your mental state. It's almost involuntary. In fact my major problem back then was that I was usually responding to something when the damn school bell rang and I had to stand up and change classrooms.

[Sparkly]

27. Ohhhh.....

(Snacks, even? Who knew?) :shrug:

[Ready4Change]

76. I'll second that "school bell ringing" effect.

Even into college and early work age, many were the times I'd stay in a my seat a bit later than others, waiting for "things" to calm down. And stimulous wasn't even needed. Just a stray daydream during a boring class was PLENTY.

[trekbiker]

91. aahhahahahaa!!!! damn that brings back some memories...

like every morning on the bus heading to high school as a sophomore (also age 14 btw). Karen would board the bus at the next stop and, SHWING!! every god damned time.. 15 more minutes till the bus pulls into school and I'll be forced to disembark with a boner.. I got pretty good at imagining myself being pulled by that bus... tied to a chain... naked... thru sub zero ice.. ANYTHING!!! please boner... just go away!!!

[Marr]

119. And now I'll bet you're oddly excited by the thought of

being pulled by a bus though sub-zero ice. :P

I used to think about this very homely, mean, unlikeable old lady on my street to take care of my problem. Then I stopped and switched to some completely impersonal imagery because I was beginning think she was hot. :P

[madmusic]

26. You mean a Viagra-like thing?

EDIT: didn't mean to butt in, just wondering.

[Sparkly]

28. I just meant...

If you're feeling upset, violated, frightened, etc., can a man's or boy's body still "respond."

[madmusic]

39. That didn't seem to be a problem for this guy.

True, it could be for some.

NOT ME!

[Ms. Toad]

42. That is one of the most confusing aspects

particularly non-stranger rape (of males or females). The body has a physical response which doesn't match the emotional response and your mind doesn't know what to make of it: Betrayed by your body, asking for it since your body enjoyable, distrusting your own emotions, later only able to respond physically when there are similar emotional components, etc. in short the pleasant/involuntary physical response really messes up your mind both short term and long term.

[Sparkly]

45. Well, I guess the physical vs. the sensation of pleasure are two things.

I'm a woman, so I only know part of this...

There are things the body may do as a physical reaction in an effort to protect itself from damage and/or repair damage as it occurs. Those can occur even as a woman or girl is feeling anything BUT pleasure.

I guess my question is whether a man or boy can have an erection from stimulation while feeling panic or fear etc. and anything else BUT pleasure.

Scientific question, mods -- I promise this isn't a sex thread! :blush:

[Ms. Toad]

59. You can,

and rape survivors of both genders sometimes do, experience physical stimulation that generates a physical response up to and including orgasm that does not match the emotional response of panic, fear, anger, etc. Sometimes survivors report feeling physical pleasure as part of that physical response.

I spent years counseling rape survivors, primarily female, and I worked with a team which also counseled male survivors so I have heard the stories of both genders. As I noted earlier, this mismatch is incredibly confusing.

[trekbiker]

95. panic and fear?? the answer is no

at least not for most normal males. the last thing you need in a "fight or flight" situation is an erection. I really cant see how its possible given the physiological response and blood flows to areas necessary for survival. Plus there is a large mental fantasy component to male response, something 99.9% of males have honed to a fine art since early puberty, mostly thru constant masterbation (too bad a large percentage of women dont seem to have done the same, maybe more marriages would survive). I have no idea about female response in panic or fear stress situations and probably would get into trouble trying to theorize about it.

[Ready4Change]

75. At that age, yes.

Up to my early 20's I "responded physically" to just about any and everything. Even "wrong" things would stir up the chemicals.

[unblock]

19. i would have felt violated.

at the age of 14, my world was studies and socialization with my peers.

i would have felt trapped by the teacher, feeling that my grade was hostage to her advances.
i would have felt unsure about whether or not i was learning anything in the actual class.
i would have been hugely distracted both in her class and outside of class, my studies would have suffered.
i would not have been able to socialize with girls my age with that going on.
i would have worried about diseases.
i would have worried about my parents finding out and grounding me for life.
and i was old enough to know that it was totally messed up.

it never ceases to amaze me how so many people can think that something that's clearly horrible and criminal when it happens to girls can be just peachy and even cool when it happens to boys.

yes, guys enjoy boasting about sex, but that's a very, very tiny offset to the total fuck up statutory rape would do to you. worse, it means you get no sympathy or help from just about anybody, so you never can work out your problems.

[madmusic]

33. Just for the record...

She wasn't his teacher and this "thang" didn't really kick off until the last days of school, in the summertime.

[Sparkly]

34. I think I see what you're saying...

If you were upset and told someone, it might be greeted with, "What? You're complaining about THAT?"

I suppose it depends on who you told... Adults, as shown in this case, take it very, very seriously.

Thanks for your answer! :hi:

[tech3149]

24. I'd have loved it on a personal level

but I wouldn't have made a big deal of it.

[driver8]

30. When you are a 14 year old boy, a woman performing oral sex on you

is a dream come true! I don't know many kids that I went to school with who would refuse a blow job.

However, doing this with a teacher is kind of creepy. I don't know how many people I would tell.

[Bucky]

32. SIDE CONVERSATION: About LeFave, it's clear that she's damaged too

While we all feel a natural sympathy (and for some of us, a touch of envy :) ) toward the kid, and certainly a good deal of scorn toward this reckless woman who abused the trust placed in her -- the point should be made that she's almost certainly emotionally damaged to have gotten off on this destructive and self-destructive path. Apparently a rape victim at a fairly young age, she's grown up in a society that encouraged her to use her looks to gain advantaged in life and turn off her brain to any messages that might suggest she's degrading herself or selling herself short.

The pattern is clear: most sex abusers are former victims of sex abuse. She felt powerless in her life and she was able to reassert power by acting terribly terribly inappropriately. Now at least one ex-lover and her ex-husband are making money off her disasterous life and she's tagged for life as a sex offender. A huge part of this tragedy was that all this hurt and pain was allowed to travel around untreated through many people's lives. And I don't hear anything at all in the sensationalized coverage of this that emphasizes the need for people to seeking healing and counseling for situations like this. Just scorn, snickers, and accusatory glares.

[madmusic]

35. Good point...

And I got a lot of that out of her interview. She seemed to try her best to be very honest with the hope of helping rather than justifying.

It's airing again right now if anyone missed it.

[Sparkly]

37. Yes, I agree.

I'm well familiar with the psychology of rape against 13-year-old girls, AND the psychology of manic-depression.

I think several aspects of this case press us to think about things in a different way. I can see there's a prurient angle as well, but it's definitely made me think over some issues I thought I had figured out.

[The2ndWheel]

40. Good lord yes

It's basically what being a 14 year old boy is all about.

[Sparkly]

46. Thanks

for your honest answer! :hi:

[boolean]

41. Fucking the school teacher is every teen boy's fantasy

It's no secret. Boys and girls are different, hence there is a double standard, but that doesn't mean it's unfair.

I don't know one guy who didn't have the sex with the teacher fantasy. We ALL had it and STILL have it.

The second most common one is the sex with your best friends mom fantasy.

[Sparkly]

43. "Double standard"

"Boys and girls are different, hence there is a double standard, but that doesn't mean it's unfair."

Are you speaking of a double standard in the way society responds to boys vs. girls who have sex?

Or, are you speaking of a double standard in the impact of sex like this on boys vs. girls, creating a different response?

[slackmaster]

72. Since boys and girls are different, it's not a double standard at all

IMO.

But that doesn't make it RIGHT for an adult woman to have relations with a minor boy.

ETA I just looked at the "next" thread after I posted this.

:D

[doublethink]

47. "I'M HOT FOR TEACHER! "

short version here .....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKm8AUTNnX8

Van Halen Video Here ...... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6HFaLdU6JA&mode=related&search=

Thank's for asking .... Peace out. :)

[Herman Munster]

48. I would not have felt violated or victimized or abused

I would have felt like the luckiest guy in the world if this hot teacher wanted to give me oral sex and have sex with me.

I wouldn't have told anyone. Never in a million years. The media attention would have been disturbing and I would have felt enormously sad for this woman that something I did would potentially put her into prison if I told someone about it.

If it had to end, I would have thanked her for the experience and been grateful she took the time to teach me how to be a better lover for my future girlfriends and eventual wife.

Never would I have bragged about it to my friends and gotten this woman in trouble. I would have protected her at all costs.

[OregonDem]

50. Should the sentence be different if its a 14 yr boy involved with a woman

rather than a man having sex with a 14 yr old girl?
I think the hot teacher should be punished but since there will be very little damage to the boy the sentence should be much lighter. Is it terrible to believe that?

[Sparkly]

51. I'm going to start a new thread addressing that in a short while...

I wanted to do this poll first. :hi:

[RoyGBiv]

53. The problem with this question ...

The problem with this question is that the vast majority of teenaged males do not in fact "bag" a hot teacher and so have absolutely no frame of reference nor an opinion that accounts for anything in this situation. Furthermore, you cannot know, based on the speculation of a hormone riddled teenaged boy's mind, what future effects it might have on him. One could quite easily argue that a teenaged boy who "bags" his hot teacher will develop an image of females as nothing but sexual objects to be "bagged" that runs deeper and with much harsher consequences than what the typical male already develops. And this doesn't even touch on the power relationship at work here or how that affects a person psychologically.

"Bagging" a hot teacher may or may not be a common teenaged male fantasy. Rape fantasies are common among women. Fantasy and reality are two entirely different things.

And as an aside, if the words "bagged" and "boinked" continue to be used so frivilously in by so many adults in these discussions I am going to lose my damn mind.

[boolean]

54. You're really overthinking it

ALL teenaged boys have an image of females as nothing but sexual objects to be "bagged". It's part of being a teenaged boy! I don't know about any of you, but I wasn't at all interested in marriage and kids when I was 14 years old. I was, however, interested in having sex with every female that moved.

It's a hormonal thing.

[karlrschneider]

56. Not "all" do.

Just sayin'...

[Ready4Change]

81. I'll second that.

While I did know some guys with that attitude, it wasn't mine, and I know some other guys who also did not have that attitude.

I'll also naysay the idea that all boys dream of their hot teacher. Now, that might just be because I didn't have any teachers I would have considered "hot." Then again, some of the guys I mentioned above, who thought of all females as "targets", those guys DID often mention their teachers, even some who I thought were far from dream material.

Perhaps, had I had a Lafave-looking teacher, my opinion might have been different. To my hormone adled teenage mind, she probably would have been plenty hot.

[RoyGBiv]

57. Fine ...

As a 14 year old boy I had an image of females other than my mother, grandmother, and really old women as nothing but terrifying creatures who wanted to stick things in my ass because it made them giggle.

I will repeat, and then I will leave this alone and just leave this place for awhile because I have gone beyond the point of being pissed off after seeing so many people I thought I respected express such asinine opinions.

You DO NOT KNOW how you will react in this situation until it HAPPENS. And maybe you'll be lucky, and maybe it won't do a thing to your psyche. Good for those who are so fortunate.

[madmusic]

60. That sounds far different.

Evidently, and we can hope, this boy didn't suffer like that.

[Sparkly]

55. That is true.

Without the actual experience, it's speculation.

I truly DO think I can remember my 14-year-old self well enough to imagine how I'd have felt about a range of things, though; what I'd have thought, struggled with, grappled with emotionally; what would have felt good, taken me a step forward, comforted me emotionally... I can remember that self without the hindsight of my adult self.

I have no scientific evidence to back this up, but I believe "rape fantasies" are NOT common among girls; they become more common later. In other words, I don't believe in an inherent urge to be raped. "Bagging" or "boinking" (and I didn't see those words on this thread, but maybe I missed them) is something more about our culture's vocabulary for "I had sex," for men/boys. (As I see it.)

And you know, given a choice of boys being more like girls in our society, or girls being more like boys in our society, I'd go with the latter.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

58. I agree with that

I find the more popular culture I expose myself to, the more I find certain themes cropping up in my fantasy life. Some of them disturb me but I find myself responding to them nonetheless. Operant conditioning.

As for the boys, I think the bagging/boinking thing is public bravado. I know men who tell me they developed incredible infatuations and had very tender feelings when they were teens. It is completely forbidden to demonstrate them in most adolescent male environments and most guys learn from a very early age that emotional expression is for sissies.

Look at the Mary Kay Letourneau thing. They are married now, I believe. She really manipulated that boy's feelings. It was definitely about more than sex for him.

[omega minimo]

66. The problem with this question

is that it brings out ignorant attitudes and statements like,

"Rape fantasies are common among women."

[RoyGBiv]

71. Hmmm...

Well, if you think Kinsey, Masters & Johnson, and a host of sexuality researchers since thing are "ignorant" then I'll agree.

[FlaGranny]

61. My husband was furious -

at the KID for not keeping his mouth shut. What can I say? He appears to be one of the majority in this poll - which is no surprise to me. He went to Catholic school and was raving that all he ever got wsa the "black bats" (nuns) knocking him over the head and cracking his knuckles. :D

[justacitizen]

62. At 14 I would have banged her

and walked away with a HUGE smile on my face and suffered no regrets thereafter,

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

63. Why No 'Most Definitely Wouldn't Have Harmed Me As An Adult' Option?

[Wilber_Stool]

64. I would have loved it sexually

and I wouldn't have told anybody.
You're just as likly to be warped by a girl your own age as an older woman. She was only 23.
The experiences you have, affect your life. For good or ill. That's what a life is.

[Sparkly]

65. The MAJORITY have weighed in -- Can we move it to the next thread???

Please read, and continue:

(This poll really affirmed what I was wondering!)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x2148639

[me b zola]

68. I of course didn't vote (I'm a female)

...but I am grateful for your poll. I have been doing a lot of thinking about this question. Can women be preditors? Is it the same? I have talked to DH about this a few times, gleaning info from his pov, but he is only one man, and I have so many questions that I fear my own biases might come into play.

Anyway, thanks for the poll, I think you did a good thing by asking.

[Sparkly]

82. Thank you!

See the follow-up discussion! Doesn't seem to be representative of the poll results, but it's interesting!

[Awsi Dooger]

69. At 14 I did want to bang a teacher

Only time I felt that way. She was smart and bespectacled, a sexy librarian type. I distinctly remember fantasizing that she asked me to stay after class to work on a project, and we ended up going back to her home before her husband showed up. Then three months into the school year she got pregnant and for some reason that startled me and turned me off. By the end of the year she was huge and I just wanted the year to end.

[zcflint09]

70. I'm gay, but--

Considering I was one horny MOFO when i was 14, I would have done the exact same with an equivalent male; and would have enjoyed every moment of it. I lost my virginity before that age and I'm fine now. I doubt the kid suffered any lasting damage...

[DemonFighterLives]

73. I was a little naive at 14

If something like that would have happened, I'm sure I would have gotten over it. Doesn't make it right.

Gotta admit her voice was sure sexy over the radio. Franken was playing clips of Mr Rightious O'reilly playing it over and over.

[GliderGuider]

74. There was the French teacher I had in Grade 9...

I also had serious hots for one of my parents' married friendswhen I was about 14. If either of them had offered, I'd have in like Flint. The notion of "taking responsibility for a sexual relationship" is a purely adult one, laid on kids to try and dampen their natural ardour. I would have explicitly rejected such a notion if the other person was an adult. I'd have said, "Hey, responsibility is their bag, not mine..." I can't see that having my wildest fantasies fuilfilled by a teacher would have exactly ruined my life. That said, I had to wait until I was 17 to have the most wonderful mutual introduction to the carnal arts with a French exchange student my own age, and all my experiences since then have been with peers.

I'll tell you one thing, though. Next time around I'm coming back as a woman. They have a lot better time in bed than men do, from what I've observed. I'm jealous.

[Sparkly]

83. Interesting re: responsibility...

Thanks for a thoughtful post.

- We do have that "invincibility of youth" thing at that age...

- On the other hand, our culture prolongs "adolescence" to a point that I've often thought (in other ways) may go too far.

- So we DO protect adolescents from SOME bad decisions but not others, and require little of them.

- But in terms of "responsibility" -- age trumps gender. If all the 14-year-old boy suffered was a BJ from a gorgeous woman who'd never have done that if she weren't manic-depressive (I'm not claiming that's the entirety of this case, but making a point), and SHE suffers a lifetime of guilt, notoreity, criminal history, public shame, not to mention the END of her career... Well, there we are and perhaps as it should be, but...

Years from now -- had the parents of the boy's friends NOT told their parents... What would the effect have been on the boy? In other words, I wonder about the relative impact of sex itself, vs. the impact of parents, law enforcement, media attention, etc....

One last thought: NO, women don't necessarily or automatically have a lot better time!! Without getting into detail, what's considered "THE act" doesn't necessarily address OUR "act" or whatever.

[matcom]

77. 5 men would have felt VIOLATED?

my ass :eyes:

[mmonk]

78. Happy?

[KingFlorez]

79. I voted the 6th option

I don't think it would have effected me later on.

[KingFlorez]

80. dupe

[lumberjack_jeff]

84. *smacks himself on the forehead*

So all this time I've been fighting for equality and justice and it turns out that men and women are different! Young boys just want to bang hot, slutty teachers, who in turn are doing said kids a favor by getting them an early start on bragging rights among their friends. Girls, on the other hand, are supposed to save themselves for marriage... or teaching.

Boy, do I feel silly. Gee, thanks for setting me straight!

<seriously>
Kids who have sex with adults in a position of power ARE harmed, even absent a Mary Kay Letourneau scenario in which the predator decides to bear the victim's child.

I suspect that the people who think this example is okay might change their minds if the predator were a catholic priest instead of an attractive, albeit mentally ill blonde.
</seriously>

[Sparkly]

85. You have WAY oversimplified my points and questions.

"No DUH" we're different; "No DUH" there are stereotypes; "No DUH" it's "not okay."...

(Did you actually read my post?)

Please.

I am suggesting that the impact on the VICTIM may be different, variable -- in this case, via my poll and this post, according to gender alone.

I did not say "this example is okay," nor have I made any parallels with men abusing boys, let alone abuse in the Catholic church.

You know, it seems like when a well-accepted or buried issue is probed or questioned or brought up to the surface, all SORTS of reactions come out attacking demons NOBODY has represented!! It seems there are hot buttons that strike at truly profound personal experiences, but are NOT necessarily what's being discussed here.

And I'm not speaking only about your post.

Strawmen, assumptions, bogeymen, tirades against all sorts of things come up ...

And that's okay, but let's just be clear about what each of us is ACTUALLY SAYING... (vs. what our emotions urge us to fight against). Okay?

[lumberjack_jeff]

90. a) I was responding to the 100+ guys you polled.

b) the impact on the victims from ANY crime is variable, but that does not imply that the punishment for the crime should be variable - especially not based upon extremely subjective gender stereotypes and societal conventions.

I don't see how this discussion is qualitatively any different than the defense: "but she was asking for it".

Of course young guys are horny. They want to get laid whether it's smart, or in their long-term interests or not. They're kids - they don't know any better.

c) My emotions urge me to fight against what I'm actually hearing - arguments for unequal protection, for sexism and for gender stereotypes. I'm surprised I'm having to fight against it here, frankly.

In my experience, 14 year old boys are much less capable of operating in a grown-up world than their female peers, and I'm not about to ask women if, in retrospect, having been statutorially raped by an attractive teacher would have enriched their lives.

[Sparkly]

92. But I did ask men here that last question....

Would it have harmed them as an adult?

A vast majority said "NO."

I'm not excusing or promoting adult women having sex with 14-year-old boys.

I AM suggesting that the equation is not an easy flip from "adult men having sex with 14-year-old girls."

Some things ARE different.

And I raise the question of whether that should impact the legal consequences.

I am NOT arguing FOR "Sexism" and "gender stereotypes" -- I am arguing that they EXIST. There is a HUGE difference.

[lumberjack_jeff]

98. Okay, let's run with the basic presumption.

Let's agree, for the state of argument, that because of the inherent differences between the genders, 14 year old boys are emotionally and intellectually capable of engaging in harmless sexual relationships with their 30-something teachers, while their female peers are not capable of doing the same thing with their male teachers.

Let's further presume that the reason is because the boy/woman relationship is a peer (or near-peer) relationship - not because exploiting boys is okay while exploiting girls is not.

If 14 year old boys are peers with grown women, how can grown women expect to be considered equal to their contemporaries? If 14 year old boys are grown up enough to have sex with their teachers, at what age should they be presumed mature enough to vote? To enter contracts? To drink? What about girls? Do they ever reach a level of maturity to be entrusted with those responsibilities? If the level of maturity required of women in this society is that demonstrated by the teacher in question, I'd suggest that the answer is never.

And yes, in case you're curious, I was once a 14 year old boy and I now have a 14 year old son. Screwing my Junior High art teacher would probably have been more fun than a barrel of monkeys, but it most definitely would have harmed me, because I would have grown up to reject the idea that women of my age are my peers.

... I'd have become a freeper.

[Jed Dilligan]

86. Can't really answer

I'm not me at 14 anymore and I don't know Debra LaFave.

I imagine it could have been a positive experience or left some kind of scar... much like all of my sexual experiences, both before and after I turned 18.

[trekbiker]

87. that kid blew it.. and he will never forget it..

the only life long mental damage to him will be his own self inflicted sore ass from constantly kicking himself for blowing such a good deal.. He had EVERY 14 yr old boys dream come true and lost it. Let the woman go. punish the stupid kid.. suspend him or something. Actually, his peers will do the punishing.. they will NEVER let him forget it..

[Sparkly]

94. Just for the record....

She allowed a friend or two & a cousin to get involved; and it was a friend who talked about it to his own parents. Those parents then contacted the parents of the boy who'd had sex with her; and then his parents went to the police.

My interest is partly about separating those facets -- what happened AFTER his parents and the law and the media got involved -- from the private aspects of his experiences with her, known of by very few.

I find it interesting to try to separate out what our natures tell us, vs. what "society" tells us... Which is hard to do... (And I think neither our natures NOR society create gender "equality.")

[trekbiker]

96. I agree.. I also believe our western culture, specifically the USA

is completely messed up with regards to sexual norms. It's nearly psychotic. Rampant commercialism, ridiculous body images, gay sex is taboo, etc.

here's a good example of just how different cultures can be:

In Mangaia, an island in the South Pacific, sex is actively encouraged. Mother's are proud of their daughters multiple sex partners. The average "good" girl has had 3-4 boyfriends between the ages of 13 and 20 and ALL women learn to have orgasms. A boy of 13 years gets serious sexual instruction. He is taught, at this tender age, how to perform cunnilingus and how to bring his partner to orgasm (perhaps several times) before he has his own orgasm. After this theoretical training, he has sex with an older, experienced woman. She gives him the practical training required for his sexual future. She shows him various positions and teaches him how to hold back until his partner is on the cusp of orgasm (3).

[Sparkly]

102. Yeah...

How'd you learn of such things?

I went to a TERRIBLE (in every way) high school but had one teacher who encouraged my interests in feminism and cultural mores (total misfit at the school, the only teacher with advanced education, must have screwed something up along the way to end up there, we figured!), and he sent me to the library to study Margaret Mead's work.

Wow!

It opened my mind to all SORTS of differences by culture. What a revelation that is! (Why don't schools require students to challenge cultural mores that way?!)

Great points -- thank you!

[trekbiker]

111. I remembered a cable documentary that profiled this particular

south Pacific Island, Mangaia, a couple years back. Could'nt remember the name, Google sure is a boon. A couple other items about this particular culture. Monagamy is highly valued but few practice it in reality (lots of philandering going on but without the same stigma or personal trauma we in the west suffer). Also, when the boys complete thier sexual training they are inducted into "manhood" by being circumsized with a sharp seashell, then diving into the ocean (salt water!!! OUCH!!)

I also find it interesting that ancient cultures had a completely different take on homosexuality. It was completely accepted in many cultures and there are accounts of military and political/social leaders freely discussing homosexual acts, bisexual acts, etc.

but we, the USA, arent at the bottom of sexually enlightened cultures. Some arab cultures still practice forced circumcision of women which pretty much ruins them sexually.

"In many countries in Africa, in Oman, Yemen and in the United Arab Emirates, clitoridectomies (the surgical removal of the clitoris) are quite commonly performed on girls. There are several different procedures, but all of them are exceedingly painful and mutilating. The risk of infection is often very high, and girls do die from complications. These operations are generally performed between infanthood and adolescence. There are many intricately ensnarled reasons for female circumcision, including traditional customs, religious beliefs, curbing sexual desire, protecting virginity and preventing immorality. Female circumcision, as anyone can imagine, seriously impedes or totally extinguishes any potential enjoyment of sex for the woman (4)."

[Sparkly]

114. And what it all teaches us is....

Biology is ONE thing, and cultural beliefs around it are ANOTHER thing....

It is SO hard to separate out the cultural from the natural...

It's all over this thread -- "commonly accepted wisdom," etc....

[immoderate]

88. I think I would have welcomed it.

Depending on the situation, it might have been nice to have an older woman indoctrinate me into sexuality. With my peers, there was a lot of anxiety and guilt, both for me and the girls. On the other hand, I knew intellectually that sex was OK, and given the chance, I would do it. When I did have my first sexual experiences, it was awkward, forbidden, and not entirely pleasant, not that I would have demurred, given the opportunity.

It's hard to say what all the consequences would have been. But I think it would have been largely positive. The advantage, it seems to me, of being with an older woman, besides the benefit of her experience, is the absence of the responsibility that I would have had to assume with a girl my own age.

--IMM

[eggbeater]

93. Well It didnt seem to hurt me any

sorry, was dreaming again.

I pretty sure that as a 14 year old boy I would have loved the attention and the sex.
Im not sure if it would have caused any lasting issues later in life, I doubt it.

[StraightDope]

97. I read this entire thread, and I MUST chime in!!!

Whoever said that these kinds of assessments are useless because of the lack of a frame of reference is exactly right. Nobody on this thread has ever been in a similar situation at that point in their lives.

Everyone that is, except me...

When I was 16 years old, I was in my senior year of high school. (For all you nitpickers, yes, I graduated at 17) During my senior year, the only "real" class that I had was English, the rest of my schedule was filled with inanities like Foods, Wood Shop, and Nurse's Aid, which brings me to my point. The Nurse, and extremely attractive young lady in her mid 20's, and I had known each other for several years prior, and during the time that I was her student aid, she was going through a nasty divorce. I listened to her horror stories about the shit that she had put up with during her ill-fated marriage, would hold her as she cried on the particularly rough days, etc. All of this with no real intentions other than sympathy for a fellow human being. In the interest of brevity, I'll spare the details of the development of what ended up being a sexual relationship, but suffice it to say that that is precisely what ended up happening.

For the second half of my senior year, we were involved, pretty much continuously, but naturally, with the utmost discretion. I never told anyone, she never told anyone, we were VERY careful to meet at times, and in places that were secluded, yet comfortable. One of my happiest memories to this day is making love to her on a summer evening in a meadow, miles from civilization (though I must say, grass gets quite itchy after a while). After I graduated, we just kind of drifted apart, but continued to "hook up" occasionally during my first year of college, despite the notable handicap of being 1.5 hours away from each other. After that first year of college, I transferred across the country, and that put an end to that. I loved her then, and I love her now, though the physical aspect of our relationship is no longer the focus. We remain good friends, though I don't get to see her as often as I'd want. In any case...

Not only did that relationship not harm me in any way, a lot of good has come from it, in my opinion. There are a few facts to bear in mind in this ase, however.

1. I was 16 when we began having sex. The two years between 14 and 16 see a lot of maturation.

2. I never had to suffer through the media circus that this kid was subjected to, nor was I drug into a courtroom, and forced to testify against someone whom I cared for deeply.

3. I'm not that kid, and there is no way of knowing how he did in fact react to the situation.

That having been said, do I think that the vast majority of adolescent males would be significantly harmed by the mere act of having a sexual relationship with an attractive teacher? No. I certainly wasn't...

DISCLAIMER: The preceding has been nothing more than StraightDope's $0.02. :)

[SnohoDem]

99. I have to agree

with the guys who say it would have been great.

Believe me, at 14 I wouldn't have known or cared about her emotional problems. She had a pulse.

Personally, I doubt I would have been 'damaged'. Except for the cousin part, similar things (older woman, younger boy/man) probably happen more often than you might think. Like, a lot. Or did in the '60s and '70s.

Males between 12 and I don't know when (somewhere over 50) are ruled by their hormones to some degree. Love us, hate us, criticize us. I don't care. We're kinda 'hard' wired that way to ensure survival of the species.

I don't mean this to be flippant or sarcastic. I am being honest. At 50, we have a choice about our behavior. At 14, not so much.

[Sparkly]

103. "She had a pulse."

I feel I shouldn't have laughed at that, but I admit I did!

THAT is my experience with boys/men.

I'm just glad to hear validation that I'm not making all this up, and want to emphasize that I'm in no way judging men about it.

It's different.

That's all.

[RFKHumphreyObama]

100. Unsure

To tell you honestly, I probably would have been flattered to receive that much attention from a much older female –although I do concede that it would depend on the teacher who was doing the seduction. Since my natural inclination is to be attracted to women who were much older than me and this has been the case since I was very young–and, yes, I had crushes on several of my teachers –I could imagine myself having reciprocated and having been a willing participant under certain circumstances. I would probably have felt pleased that I was in a position of intimacy with a teacher and was subject to her private thoughts and feelings.

BUT and this is a big but…….I would also have probably felt very uncomfortable being in that relationship and knowing it would be wrong. I would be scared and frightened about the consequences of ending the relationship, where it was going and the fact that someone in a position of authority had so much power and influence. I would be ashamed of concealing the affair from my family and would know that my parents and sister would be very worried and distraught if they knew. I am also quite religious and it would have an impact on my consciences. I would be confused, frightened and ashamed.

BTW, you don’t know my cousins. Most of them are significantly older than me and are very protective toward me. If a teacher tried to have sex with me in one of their cars when I was 13-14, they would go ballistic. I’d pity the teacher once one of my cousins saw that happening

As for the long term impact, I think it would negatively impact on me long term. It is possible that I would have some fond memories of the relationship but I’d also feel confused, ashamed and conflicted. I think it could have the potential to impact negatively upon my future relationships. And, if I had kids I would be paranoid about them and what they were up to and would probably have had a distrust of adults around my kids

I'll concede that some young adolescent males, including myself when I was at that age, may fantasize about having a relationship with a female teacher. But there is a big gulf between thinking about it and doing it and I think that female teachers who seduce their male students should be judged by similar standards as male teachers who seduce female students. Because I do regard it as emotional and physical abuse. Even in the cases where male students have tried to initiate a relationship, the best thing for a female teacher to do is the equivalent of a best thing for a male teacher to do in the same situation -reject the advances

[Sparkly]

106. I'm going to go WAY out on a limb here and say...

... that I don't think she'd have been 'interested' in you.

She wouldn't have made advances toward you.

I think in all cases that don't involve certain dynamics or physical force, the path of least resistance is the path of easiest conquest. Debra LaFave could have had virtually any man she wanted, but she wanted to play out a mania-enabled fantasy. She wasn't going to seduce a boy who seemed disinterested; she wanted that certain boy (who'd seem "dominant" -- my guess from the interview).

I think every such thing is different, and I think in general what men seek in girls is different from what women like her seek boys. (Not so much about aggressive desire; more about vulnerability.)

I think if you'd been in her class, she'd have recognized your feelings and conflicts, etc. -- you wouldn't have acted as those boys did. Whether that's about them being more "easy prey" or them being more "happy playmates" depends on your frame of reference, I suppose. (In my experience, there are always such "happy playmates," frankly!)

[U4ikLefty]

101. Just imagine..."Dave LaFarve", a hot 23 year-old gay male teacher.

As a male would you find that sexual activity with said teacher was deterimental to your 14-year old???

Hey, since were being honest!!!

[Sparkly]

107. Did you read my OP?

From your simplistic post, I'm guessing you didn't.

[Blue_Tires]

104. i know i'm in the minority

but i'm repulsed by the thought

and without going into too much detail, similar things happened to me (granted, i was MUCH younger than 14, and the woman was not my teacher)...even though it is difficult to say for sure, that incident probably did affect in some way how i trust or view women sexually in my adult life...

[Sparkly]

108. Just clarify for me, honestly....

You are repulsed by the thought of Debra LaFave giving you a BJ at age 14,

and ALSO,

You are repulsed by the thought of Debra LaFave giving you a BJ now.

Just so I understand...?

[Blue_Tires]

110. ok

at 14, i would be repulsed by the thought of LaFave my 8th-grade teacher doing that (a person in position of respect and authority)...if it were LaFave, just a random woman on the street, it probably would not affect me as much...

and yes...at my current age (30) i am similarly repulsed for obvious reasons

[Sparkly]

112. Well, okey dokey -- I do dare say...

(and when I say I "dare say," I'm using an Oklahoman expression of my Mom's that sort of means, "I might be right or wrong but I'm just sayin'...")

I DARE say you are in the MINORITY among men.

No judgment of you, no judgment of them, just sayin'.

I don't even get the "obvious reasons" a 30-year-old man would feel "repulsed" by the prospect of a BJ from a beautiful woman, actually...

[Blue_Tires]

115. just to add

when i say i'm repulsed as an adult, i say that knowing she seduced her students...i'm sorry, but imo, if she is a beautiful woman in her early 20s and so hard up that you need to go your sexually maturing students to get the itch scratched, then i want nothing to do with her...even i have my own standards; low as they may be

[Akoto]

105. Well, I'm 21, so 14 wasn't all that long ago ...

I can still very much remember being that age. It was an extremely awkward time, and I was the bashful sort when it came to romance. Never really dated or anything like that. Privately, though? Hormones raging all over the place until I was much older. It was the same way with most of my friends.

At that age, as a male, sexuality was kind of overwhelming. You know the feelings, but lack a complete understanding of what they mean and what the consequences of acting upon them could be. The feeling of invincibility kind of fools you into thinking you can get away with anything.

I suppose that I would've been flattered to receive a woman's attention. On the other hand, I probably would've felt extremely intimidated. A part of me would likely have worried that rejecting her would lead to poor results in school, so I suppose there's an element of entrapment there. Ultimately? I don't think that I would've been comfortable with it at all, even if there were moments of sexual gratification.

[JVS]

109. It would have seemed like a cool thing at first, but...

probably been very harmful psychologically. A 14 year old is not an adult and to enter into such a relationship could be very harmful to the development of one's ability to conduct relationships. I shudder now when I see how p-whipped many guys are, imagine what a relationship looks like when the person being p-whipped is also a child and 10 years younger. It would have been a relationship where I would have absolutely no control, and I think that is a bad thing for people to be involved in.

[Sparkly]

113. Um.....

Just wondering if that's something you've heard, or something you actually feel inside yourself.

[JVS]

116. I find your questioning of my integrity insulting and will no longer...

talk to you ever.

[Name removed]

120. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[BlooInBloo]

117. I get the feeling some folks say it's harmful because they're SUPPOSED...

... to say it's harmful... Probably because it's typically harmful to girls, and to say it's not typically harmful to boys would (by idiotic analogy) appear to support harming 14 yo girls.

I'm sure there are *some* boys for whom such an experience would be harmful - I daresay gay 14 boys would likely have a devil of a time with it, for example. But the idea that it's *typically* harmful - to anywhere near the degree to which the analogous experience is harmful to a 14 yo girl, is simplpy laughable.

To say that something isn't as harmful to 14 yo boys as it is to 14 yo girls (or vice versa) is NOT to demean or lessen the harm done to the other.

[Hippo_Tron]

118. At age 14 confused as hell, At age 16 I probably would've loved it

[ronnykmarshall]

121. I would have said ...

"GURUUULLL, you gotta be kiddin' me with this?"

[Nimrod2005]

123. I was 14, I did with a much older lady, maybe in her 40s, I am now 42

Very well adjusted, confident, successful today, nothing hurt, I loved it, I would do it again...

[yellowcanine]

125. I would have probably done it and then felt guilty as hell about it....

And then done it again at the first opportunity. It would have been wonderful. I doubt that there would have been any permanent harm.

[Evoman]

124. I know my mind, inside out.

I have been a self-analyzer since I was a kid, trying to understand what I do and why I do it. I'm actually really close to the point where I can avoid certain emotions easily by just changing my thought patterns. Unlike people who just make decisions, I'm always curious about why I make decisions.

That being said...I would have banged a hot teacher or older women with nary a second thought, and I can say, without any doubt, it would not have caused any harm to me as an adult.

"But how do you know, Evoman...you have never been in that position"

I don't give a shit. I know myself, and I know that I would not have been harmed. I cannot say the same thing about other people....everybody is different. But I would have done it, I would have enjoyed it, and, goddammit, it might have actually saved me some stress the first time I had sex with someone my own age.