Issues with Gender Equality, Raised by the Debra LaFave Case

[Sparkly]

Debra LaFave and her 14-year-old victim... It's exactly the same as a 23-year-old male teacher having sex with a 14-year-old female student, right??

I dare say, it's NOT the same. Hear me out, and THEN respond.

I've been a Feminist since I was 15. I am well-familiar with issues of rape, teacher-student relationships, manic-depression, and more, from personal experience. I am only familiar with boys/men from my side of the equation, but as a good-looking girl/women (passing on to "handsome" at this age), I have some experience with them.

My Feminist, rational self wants to apply EQUALITY under the law to both men and women. If a 23-year-old man has sex with a 14-year old girl, it should be EXACTLY the same as a 23-year-old woman having sex with a 14-year-old boy. Shouldn't it?

The thing is, the genders are not "equal" in society, nor are they identical physically.

First, let's think physically. The act of sexual intercourse itself is different for the genders, obviously. A 14-year-old boy isn't likely to feel physical pain upon his first experience; a 14-year-old girl WILL feel pain, bleed, and experience little if any pleasure. I dare say a boy will orgasm his first time; I dare say a girl will not. Men/boys penetrate; women/girls feel themselves penetrated. A girl risks pregnancy; a boy does not. Further, there is generally a difference in overall strength and size involved, and that does matter. So physically alone, it is inherently different.

Second, let's think of societal mores. We've long known our culture has a HUGE double standard for male and female sexuality. It's in the messages we get, the feedback we get, and the feelings we have about ourselves as a result. A boy who has sex gets something to brag about if he wants to; a girl who has sex has something to be ashamed of. A man/boy who has sex with several partners is a "stud;" a woman/girl who has sex with several partners is a "slut." It's so obvious, it goes without saying. (And we've seen it even here on DU, even from otherwise enlightened posters.)

Third, let's think psychologically. Whether it's about the physical, the societal, or some combination, we've all heard of how men have an urge to "spread their seed" as far as possible, while women have an urge to "be selective, requiring love and fidelity" to "feather the nest." Thus the best men are selected by women to further their genes; and men, according to theory, have a primary interest in women who seem young and healthy and fertile (but not necessarily to the exclusion of others!). When our sex organs first start to function, boys DO seem more interested in just plain sex; girls DO seem more interested in "love." (One theory of why the Beatles were so popular was that they were safe, "androgynous" objects for girls of the time... Perhaps from a combination of biology and societal messages, I think girls do NOT want ACTUAL sex at 14... Women, correct me if you think I'm wrong.)

Fourth, let's think emotionally. Add all those up: the physical impact, the impact of societal mores, the psychological impact, the emotional impact. Although I'd like to think "It's all EQUAL," I can't say that it is. It's not the same physically. It's not the same in societal mores. It's not the same, especially as young teenagers, psychologically.

Much of this may equal out when we're adults, but at age 14, I think the differences are pronounced -- physically, societally, psychologically, and thus emotionally.

Considering all that:
1. A 23-year-old male teacher penetrates the body of a 14-year-old girl.
2. A 23-year-old female teacher coerces/enables/allows a 14-year old boy to penetrate her.

Is it really EXACTLY the same?
Are the risks the same?
Is it the same physically?
Is it the same social "standard?"
Is it the same emotionally?
Is it the same psychologically?

Should it REALLY be the same legally?
Or are there cases where men should be punished more than women?

In other words, can we apply equal justice to an issue that is inherently NOT equal??

The case of Debra LaFave is, to me, a perfect test. See my poll here to view how "abused" men on DU would feel!

It seems like a stupid diversion, but it actually made me think about my beliefs and experiences in a different way....

And I say, some things are NOT equal. Some things are NOT the same. It made me VERY uncomfortable to feel that, but I've thought about it a great deal... For whatever reasons, I think the gut sense many of us have about this is right. There IS, in fact, a difference.

Flame away!!

[JI7]

1. how much of the shame girls feel has to do with society ?

it's unlikely even if a girl wanted to have sex with not just an older guy but any guy that she would be able to brag about it with high fives from friends and be seen as some big shot . instead she would be viewed by many as a slut.

but based on what i know most girls , especially ones as young as 14 don't just want to have sex . they would probably view the relationship as something that will last longer and include marriage.

(i am mostly talking about young girls here who are not legal adults)

the problem with Debra LaFave includes the fact that she is a teacher . parents of minors should be able to expect teachers to not engage in such relationships no matter how much their kid may want it.

i would be interested in seeing a scientific poll asking people who had sexual relationships with adults while they were minors what their views are on it now. what percentage of guys who are now adults and had sex with an adult female see themselves as having been used, victimized ? how about the females ? what would the differences be between the two.

[Sparkly]

3. You hit on the very things I'm writing about.

Starting with your last point: I asked DU guys to imagine themselves at 14 in such a situation.... You can read the poll results! (A vast majority said they'd have enjoyed the experience, the hi-5's, and not have suffered any damage as adults.)

Your first point, about bragging rights: exactly my point about societal mores.

Your second point, about actual desire: exactly my points about physiology and psychology.

Your third point: YES, there's a power issue involved. I should have gotten into that more specifically, too! There's an inherent power difference between men/boys and women/girls (which, like other issues I listed, fades to some extent as we grow up).

I think the issues I did mention make a difference between power abuse from a (beautiful) woman toward a 14-year-old boy, and power abuse from a (handsome?) man toward a 14-year-old girl. The equations are unequal from the start.

[Stinky The Clown]

4. I think the fact she was a teacher - a person in an authority role - puts

an added dimension on the essential equation being explored in the OP. And that added dimension - not to be ingored in the specific case cited - may skew some thinking about the more essential question.

[Sparkly]

7. Oh, the Clown weighs in....

The authority role is still different when it's held by a woman vs. a man -- are you agreeing?

(Btw, I'm SURE I know how you answered the poll.)

[Lindacooks]

21. Teachers are held to a higher standard because they are trained

to handle kids, and are trained in the law regarding schools and children. That's only one reason why this is wrong.

[FedUpWithIt All]

8. Honestly, what adult is not in an authority role with a child? n/t

[oldcoot]

41. Teachers have more power and influence with students

Teachers have more power and influence with students than average adults because they usually see the kids every day. They also decide what grade the student receives, in some cases whether or not the child will advance to another class or graduate, and they also have the power to discipline children.

Because of the enormous power difference between a student and his/her teacher, the student might be afraid to refuse to have sex with a teacher. The student might be afraid that the teacher will penalize him or her with a lower grade if he or she does not comply. Even if the student does enter a "consensual" sexual relationship with a teacher, what happens if the student tries to end the relationship?

[pointblank]

12. When I was 16

(i am a male) I had consenual sex on a semi-regular basis with a 21 year old female. She would buy my friends and me booze and let us party at her house.

I am 30 years old now, and while I know there is abig difference between a 14 year old and a sixteen year old, I dont think i was affected by it at all...In fact I view it as a pleasurable experience to this day :) and I also feel that I developed sexually in a fairly "normal" way...if you believe there is a ormally.

Granted, looking back on it the girl was definitely a little off her rocker emotionally...not too bad, but she definitely had some issues and in retrospect for her to be entertaining younger teenage guys she must not have been getting "it", if you know what I mean, from her peers, but she was pretty attractive and I defitnitely knw\ew what I was doing...the catch is it WAS illegal technically.

So I guess what i am saying is that I do see some differences in the older female/youger male relationship as opposed to the other way around.

Should the laws be changed...I dont know, every one is different, but I just wanted interject my experience.

Like i SAID, I know my situation is a bit different than the current topic, but I figured I would interject on you request for a poll on those who had been on the receiving end of an "illegal" sexual experience...and I have to say it wasnt that bad!

[Sparkly]

15. Thanks!

Your story is very interesting, on this topic.

I think there would be a difference there, just inherently, if it were a 16-year-old girl and a 21-year-old man. As I said, it's different physically, and in terms of your own thoughts about it (via society) and even, perhaps, your thoughts about her... (Consider that, perhaps, she wasn't "off her rocker" or not "getting it," but just enjoyed what she was doing... As a 21-year-old man would. I think there's a point where we equal out...)

So, I see you've overcome your great pain and shame about all this. ;) :hi:

[pointblank]

19. Thanks for your response

I hope I didnt come across as too judgemental about her (the off her rocker comments etc.) In this case, her mental state was actually irrelevant..I was really just stating my opinion about her. Shit, I'm probably off the rocker in some people's minds myself! :)

Oh and as far as the pain and shame...Screw that...it wa sa great experience as far as Im concerned...and If you really want me to show my neanderthal thoughts on the whole Lfave situation...that is one lucky kid (im bad I know...lay it one me, I can take it! :P

peace.

[treestar]

33. The strange thing is that one hundred years or so ago in many places

16 year old girls married 21 year old men - or even older. So there is some sense of "rightness" there that may not have faded. Though in modern times marriage is not on his mind so that it perhaps what makes it an even bigger power difference.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

2. I Don't Think They're Equal Whatsoever. And I Hear Ya.

[Sparkly]

5. Thank yew.

:hi:

[lumberjack_jeff]

34. The underlying logic of dissimilar treatment based on gender...

... must be based on the assumption that 14 year-old boys are inherently better able to make informed decisions than 14-year-old girls OR that 35-year-old female teachers are inherently less capable of being responsible for their actions than 35-year-old male teachers.

Otherwise, the argument is wholly without merit.

If my kids teachers are considered legally irresponsible, I want the school to hire different teachers.

[FedUpWithIt All]

6. No flame here but a different perspective....

My daughter is 14. She has two close male friends.

One of the boys has developed a crush on me. He is a shy boy and i do not feel uncomfortable with the way he feels. It is a harmless part of growing up. He simply gets flustered when i am around. The other boy originally found out that suggesting that i am "hot" would get a funny response from my daughter and a bit of male jest between him and his male friend. Somehow my comfort level changed with this boy's comment. The use of the word "hot" from a 15 yr old boy made me extremely uncomfortable. It is different somehow.

The reason i mentioned these boys was to ask whether this discussion is getting a false result because of the fact that the damage is already done? Does perspective change when the situation is looked at from the other end? Surely, none of the responders of the poll are suggesting that a woman respond when an adolescent makes an advance. Do the assertions that no lasting damage would be done to a boy in a case like the LaFave case still apply when one is looking at a scenario from this angle? If it does not then maybe we should ask why. Perhaps, it is because in a situation that has already occurred is safe to dissect against the backdrop of fantasy. Whereas one that has not, the true realities of the implications arise.

I have been reading the poll thread you started. I remember when the case first was revealed. Around that time there was another case with very similar circumstances save one detail...the teacher in that case was not physically attractive. Men, who on the one hand were declaring their desire for a similar opportunity in the adolescent years with someone like LaFave, immediately decried the trauma to the young boy in the other case. There were calls for the "ugly" woman's imprisonment. THIS is the problem with this type of situation. The double standard in not so much one of male vrs. female but of something more...i dunno, uglier.


Edited for clarity. Very tired. :boring:

[Stinky The Clown]

13. I think you hit on another very valid aspect of this .... attractiveness

In the case cited in the OP, the woman was obviously 'hot'. In the case oyu cite (which I also recall from the news), the was physically unattractive.

We have all SORTS of baggage, preconceptions, prejudices, etc.

Tall men are more successful than short men

Good looking people of either gneder are smarter than unattractive people

Etc.

Some of these become more or less self-fulfilling

None of that is in defense of any of it .... or not. But I think we can agree it 'is'.

[Sparkly]

17. I was writing back to you when our power went out....

In brief: Yes, there's a BIG difference between "Your mom is pretty" and "Your mom is hot."

If you're asking whether the men who answered the poll would prefer that a woman "respond" to their advances, I'm not sure... (I didn't ask that.) I suspect it's a more complicated equation around fantasy and reality.

In this particular case, I think LaFave may indeed have been manic. With that or without it, people develop flirtations with people who are responsive. So I think the response is part of the equation, NOT that those who 'respond' are legally complicit.

And yes -- LaFave's beauty is a factor that makes this a case for raising questions....

[OregonDem]

9. The sentence should be based on the damage that was caused

The damage created not only includes physical but emotional pain as well.

A man having sex with a 14yr old girl will cause more serious damage to her so his punishment should be greater.
A woman having consensual sex with a 14 yr old boy will cause less damage so the sentence should be lighter.
If a woman had forced sex on the 14 yr old then the damage would have been greater and so her sentence should be greater for breaking the law.

[Scoot420fla]

10. more inequality...

What would you think the repercussions of the same situation involving a man and a young boy as opposed to either of your scenarios or older woman with a young girl?Which do you think will get the harshest punishment? Which will get the lightest? I agree, all should be equal.

[Sparkly]

14. Good questions!

But understand that my point is about the struggle between "all should be equal" and "things are NOT equal."

I think physically, societally, psychologically and emotionally -- as I outlined -- it would be egregious for a man to penetrate a boy. And I think it would be, and should be, punished as such.

An older woman with a young girl, hmmm... (This may happen, but it's not something I know about!) I guess it depends on what she'd do, but my guess is it's physically not necessarily as traumatic as intercourse with a man (for a girl OR a boy); societally, not the same stigma (slut) but a different one (freak); and psychologically/emotionally, I just couldn't guess. I hope others will weigh in on this one.

To your question, I think the man with the boy would be treated more harshly than the woman with the girl. As I see it, depending on the exact circumstances, it might make sense. Physically, psychologically, emotionally, in terms of societal pressures... I think an older man penetrating a boy is more painful and damaging on all levels than, say, the natural things a woman might do to a girl.

[hfojvt]

18. there are other possibilities

for example, the boy could penetrate the man is the instance in question, although in a case of oral sex, I am not sure it is legitimate to talk about 'penetration'.

Also a couple other factors. You mentioned that 'the first time' is painful for a girl. However, if a 15 year old girl has sex with a 19 year old man, it is not necessarily her first time. Thus the physical consequences are different. Also, on the risk of pregnancy - does it become okay if the male has had a vasectomy or is otherwise sterile for whatever reason?

Finally, with the social stigmas, pressures or consequences. What is your evaluation of them? Is a double standard either a) desirable, or b) inevitable. If the double standard is itself wrong, then basing unequal legal consequences on the fact of the double standard seems to give it an insecure footing. You get a false conclusion from a false premise.

[mongo]

37. I am sure the older woman/young girl scenario occurs

Working in the adult store I have seen a couple of lesbian couples with an older (developmentaly normal) woman, and a much younger (adult) woman who is obviously at least mildly retarded.

I have never seen a hetro couple where one is normal and the other retarded, or a gay male couple for that matter.

[Boomer]

47. Come over to my neighborhood

I've never seen that kind of disparity in a lesbian relationship among ANY of my friends or even just people I know. Not saying they don't exist, mind you, just that I've never seen them.

On the other hand, I was taken aback by a local heterosexual couple. The man is developmentally normal, his wife is retarded. As are all three of their daughters.

Either way, gay or straight, there's an obvious power/authority disparity at work.

[madmusic]

125. Does that mean the "retarded" person should go without?

Or find another equally retarded person?

[Boomer]

141. Not my place to say what they should do

I was describing my initial emotional reaction to a situation I'd never encountered before, but I wasn't expressing any opinion on what mentally retarded individuals can or can't do. You're the one that made that leap, not me.

Personal freedom means just that: the freedom to make choices that I wouldn't make myself.

[madmusic]

148. No leap.

Just asking. The question takes us back to the Progressive Era and the age of forced sterilization, and I wouldn't be sure how to answer.

[Boomer]

175. Disturbing issue, isn't it?

I really recoil at the idea of forced sterilizations and the whole eugenics movement. On the other hand, it's hardly optimal to pass on the genes of mental/development disabilities to a new generation of children, especially in society that has so little social services protection for vulnerable individuals.

How in hell do you balance out these conflicts? Darned if I know.

The family to which I refer lived just a few houses away for several years, so I was able to watch these three young girls grow up. In addition to being developmentally disabled, they also suffered from malnourishment (pasty skin, limp hair, dark circles under their eyes) and some of the worst dental hygiene I've seen. Given that the family wasn't dirt poor, I can't help but wonder how much of their condition was due to low parenting skills on the part of the mother, who was the full-time caregiver for the family.

As a further complication, I noticed how the eldest girl changed in demeanor the longer she was in school. As a very young girl she had seemed significantly disabled, with many of the awkward physical movements and facial grimaces exhibited by her mother. But those gradually gave way to more "normal" behavior by the time she was in her teens. So I then began to wonder how much of her ealier behavior was simply modeling on what she saw at home, rather than a true symptom of disability.

Again, I don't have any answers for how to protect children from growing up in an environment which hinders them without also curtailing the civil liberties of developmentally disabled adults. It's a lose-lose situation any way you look at it.

[madmusic]

179. Yeah, it's a tough one.

During the eugenics period, the real issue was the cost, not compassion. They in fact wanted to create a better race, like themselves, of course. I have the same problem with it, for the same reasons you do, but know $ is not the way to look at it. Neither is compassionate conservatism.

The girl kind of sounds like Carrie Buck, whose case went before the supreme court. Supposedly she, her mother and her daughter were "feebleminded," but her daughter got good grades in school. Like this girl, maybe she was just brought up in a not very nurturing environment and didn't get much encouragement until school. What REALLY pisses me off about that cases is that her lawyer before the U.S. Supreme Court was actually working with the hospital that wanted to sterilize her. Grrrrrrrrr.

[mongo]

152. No, just that their is an inherent inequity of power

The same as when an adult and child try to have an adult relationship.

[madmusic]

153. But this "retarded" person is an adult.

And has desires, needs and wants. Evidently, the only way to have them in an equal relationship would be with another "retarded" person. Doesn't that leave him/her out in the cold?

EDIT: Or maybe the real goal is that they have no sex at all, a kind of social sterilization.

[mongo]

156. Wow.

I don't know where you come off with the "social sterilzation" comment.

But yeah, there is going to be a particular power dynamic between a retarded person and a "normal" person in a relationship -- which is not to say that it is "wrong", or that the same dynamic doesn't exist in thousands of "normal" relationships.

I was just originally making an observation to what I saw as a similar dynamic to an adult lesbian with a minor.

I used to take care of MRDD adults in the 70's. I know all about their desires, needs and wants. The really wried thing is that in the large facility I worked at, men and women were segregated, which actually encouraged homosexual behavior over heterosexual. Two guys or girls going at it in the middle of the night in bed was OK, and we looked the other way, but a hetro couple in the bushes during the day was repremanded.

[madmusic]

169. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

The point was to question how, given the taboo of the "power dynamic" when one side is not equal, they could experience some of the joys in life without violating the taboo. And I'll admit my question is deeply tainted by our history of 100 years ago, when these people, especially if they were women, were either locked away or sterilized and released. So I'm wondering, not accusing, if this power dynamic could be the same body in different clothing. And given some of the other posts about offspring also being developmentally disabled, that would be a valid viewpoint for some. I'm not saying it would be right or wrong, only that our history reveals, since Hitler got his idea of the Holocaust from our eugenicists, that it could be a dangerous slippery slope.

Just thinking and asking is all.

[Nikia]

58. A family lives across from my grandmother

Where the father is developmentally normal and the woman is mentally retarded to the extent that she still goes to a school for the mentally disabled. Their twin daughters were going to an early intervention school and would later make a decision about whether they would go to a regular public school or the school that their mother goes to.

[melnjones]

180. Adult women can sexually abuse

female children and not be gay. Happened to me, and for me it was far more damaging than the sexual abuse I got from a male. There are many many factors that go into what makes an event traumatic.

[readmoreoften]

11. Great post.

If he's gay, he could've been damaged though. If he's straight, he'll probably be just fine-- well, would've been fine if it didn't turn into a national incident.

[Sparkly]

16. Right.

The sex itself, and the public response to it (whether just parents and kids at school, or everybody you know in town, or everybody in the COUNTRY) are separate matters.

[pepperbear]

20. Great point about the beatles....

In the 50s and 60s, when there was finally a youth market, pop culture became the first go to place for shaping attitudes towards sex and romance. Considering how the establishment (boy, remember that term?) as a whole was not giving any real answers, what did they expect?

I think back to that time and for the most part, the songs the ladies sang were basically some hybrid of "will he love me/be mine forever/we'll get married/dream date/I'll go wherever he goes". At least, that was always how it was sold....safe but EXTREMELY hormone driven none the less, and very pointed as to how the ladies should view the gentlemen (of course, that is unless you read between the lines).


Meanwhile, the guys were doing a variation on she's so fine/I won her heart now she's mine/If I ever find you been cheatin'/she sure likes to ball/slow that mustang down. The guys could be a lot less subtle about it than the ladies.

This is all in support of the double standard concept put forth in sparkly's original post.

[marions ghost]

22. I find it interesting

that (I think I saw it on Countdown)--the woman said she viewed what she did as wrong, ie. as a crime against the boy, and said she thought she should have had jail time rather than just house arrest. She said she views herself as a sex offender. (It is definitely possible for a woman to be a sex offender--I don't think that's in question).

However this reaction is different from the other teacher-student cases where the woman usually defends herself as innocent of wrongdoing. But I think most people can recognize that both male and female teachers must never abuse their relationship with children in this way. So strong deterrants are warranted. We have to trust teachers in general not to be sexual predators. Women have to be treated the same as men in this.

I think we may not know enough about this taboo subject. I suspect that as we learn more about it, despite common fantasies & male bravado, this scenario in reality would not appeal to a significant segment of the male population. They would not be able to handle it emotionally. There could be serious repercussions for more sensitive types. And there are plenty of cases of girls trying to seduce male teachers. So while I believe there's a gender gap to some extent, I'm not sure it's really all that wide.

Need more data.

[dsc]

23. what if this teacher had gotten pregnant

decided to keep the baby and then sued for child support effectively barring this kid from any kind of higher education? Would that still not be a big deal? And before you brand this as a preposterous hypothetical there are numerous cases of this very thing happening. The right of the child superceeds the facts of conception. As a gay teacher who knows I would be hung from the nearest tree for this behavior it aggravates the Hell out of me to see excuses being made for women abusing, and yes this is abuse, boys in their control. I am sure many 14 year olds would love to be given beer by their teachers or drugs. Would that be OK?

[slackmaster]

24. Speaking only for California

You wouldn't get very far suing a minor for child support, or anything else.

[dsc]

25. They wait until he turns 18 and then sue

and then they win. I also personally know 17 year olds who have had to pay child support (admittedly to other youngsters not to adults but in principle is no different).

[TahitiNut]

55. As a straight former teacher, I share your aggravation.

What people usually fail to assess is the harm that comes, not directly from the abuse itself, but from the stigmatization of the victim (or lack of same) by society. "Despoiled!" The 'harm' done to a female victim is far more exacerbated by a society that often treats the male victim with a surreptitious pat on the back. But God forbid it's a same-sex molestation! Jeeesus! That's when the stigmatization goes batshit insane! The male victim get none of those surreptitious pats on the back. He's almost forever stigmatized ... Goodbye Columbus! Even here there are gender inequities a female victim of a female predator is far less stigmatized than either the female victim of the male predator and the male victim of the male predator.

When it comes to sex, children, and sexual orientation ... our society goes batshit feces-fucking insane!

[dsc]

60. That is a valid point

but I still don't think it necessitates different punishments.

[TahitiNut]

81. I agree - just like killing a poor person shouldn't be a lesser offense

... than killing a rich person.

If anything, it should be a greater offense. :evilgrin:

[melnjones]

181. thank you...good points. nt

[sendero]

26. The problem is very simple...

.. and can be stated in a few sentences. Women want, and should have, equal rights under the law. There is no way for that to work if you want to make "exceptions".

I totally understand where you are coming from - to me it's like "probable cause" rules. We have to have them even though they sometimes result in inadmissable evidence resulting in letting a guilty party go free. But there simply is no better remedy. Once you start making "exceptions" you can kiss gender equality under the law goodbye.

[lukasahero]

27. Excellent points

What is described as the unequal "reality" will not change until we change it.

Perhaps it's true that the "damage" done to boys in the situation described is currently "less than" the "damage" done to girls.

But the real issue is: when are we going to start doing something to change our culture to recognize that until we treat each equally in the eyes of the law we will never be equal?

By conceding the "unequal reality" we do nothing more than perpetuate it.

[marions ghost]

28. I tend to agree

when this occurs (given the circumstances of each case) women should be treated the same as men as far as legal repercussions are concerned. Though it happens much less often, a woman can be a sexual predator.

You'd have to sort out whether the court was lenient because she is bipolar or lenient because of other factors. I don't know if she got a lesser sentence because she is a woman. She was a teacher, in a position of social responsibility. So the sentence was appropriate IMO as it's a clear cut case of abuse. She wasn't let off too lightly, although she herself thinks she should have gotten jail. Maybe she was coached to say she is a sex offender.

[Finder]

29. Good post and I agree....

although I think the law should be written broadly,(as it is)each case needs to be looked at individually. I do think those who break the law should lose their government jobs when it involves authority over others--teachers, police, etc...

[lumberjack_jeff]

30. Either the law is gender-blind or it is not.

If 14-year-old boys are considered more culpable for their actions than 14-year-old girls, at what point to girls become responsible citizens? 19? 23? 45?

As far as the relative risks, an adult who gets pregnant as a result of statutorially raping a child holds that child's future hostage. His first paycheck will garnished to pay for a child he was too young to intelligently decide to have.

I respectfully disagree. Women/girls should be assumed to have the same capacity to make rational sex choices as men/boys, and the same responsibility for them.

Besides, the exact same argument can be made that biological/psychological differences make females fundamentally unfit to be in the armed services - among other things. The primary problem I see with this argument is the use of gender stereotypes to justify an assumption of dissimilar personal autonomy/responsibility.

[madmusic]

31. Fascinating subject.

As we've seen in other posts, this can be an emotional and gut reaction topic. As others have mentioned, that this was a teacher does matter. We can't have "home orgy rooms" in schools. Parents have the right to expect their children will get out of school what they send them there for, to learn. But the United States has always suffered moral panic about sex.

LaFave made it clear that the law did not act as a deterrent at all. Even the risk of 15 years or more in prison did not stop her. Common sense would be more effective, and that could simply mean someone setting her down and giving her a heart to heart. No one said anything to her, or if they did they didn't say it in a context she could hear. Didn't anyone care enough about her and the boy to do that? Maybe this could have been prevented, maybe not, but evidently no one tried enough to know.

About the equality, there are studies that are very controversial. For example, one found "CSA does not cause intense harm on a pervasive basis regardless of gender." That study did not erupt with reaction until "National Association for Research and Therapy of Homosexuality (NARTH) criticized the study for its methodology and conclusions. It was then attacked by The Wanderer, a Catholic religious newspaper, the talk show host Dom Giordano, Dr. Laura Schlessinger (known on her popular radio talk show as "Dr. Laura") and numerous Republican politicians." In "July 12, 1999 - the United States House of Representatives passed a resolution condemning the study."

That is understandable to a degree. But condemnation does not make the study true or false. More on topic, it found CSA (child sexual abuse) did not necessarily "ruin the minor for life," male or female. How does that fit into the equality equation?

The subject is so loaded with emotion and gut reaction, often rightfully so, that is it like the reaction we get from Bush when questioning the Iraq war. Wrong! Wrong! Wrong! to even discuss it.

I am not suggesting that adult/child sexual relations should be legalized. They shouldn't. But the moral panic that resulted in mandatory 25-to-life sentences are the result of moral panic. In the Netherlands, a child of 12 to 16 can choose to press charges or not. That sounds reprehensible to us, but they seem to be much healthier sexually than we are, meaning far less murder, violent crime, abortions, teen pregnancies, STDs and so on. Even if LaFave thinks she should be in jail, 15 years is too much for her crime in relation to the harm done. A drunk driver who maimed a child irreparably wouldn't get that much time.

Here's another question. If you were a friend of LaFave's, would you have reported her to the police knowing she would get 15-30 years in prison? I wouldn't and doubt many friends would. It's just to excessive. So the severe penalty could, at times, act more as a deterrent to resolution than to prevention. And that is true for most CSA because the offender is almost always a family member, relative or close friend.

EDIT: Given the OP, a better way to frame the question might be: Would you more likely to report a male or female family member to the police? Society, for some reason, doesn't seem to sentence women as serverly for crimes.

[dsc]

32. To put the decision on the child is the height of stupidity

They are a child for pete's sake which is the whole point. They also are likely 'in love' with the person who is abusing them. It is this very dynamic which led states to pass mandatory arrest laws for domestic violence cases as women were continually saying never mind when police would show up.

On edit: Of course studies are going to show that not every child is hurt by underage sex. Just like not every adult is hurt by smoking cigarettes. All of these are based on probabilities and being more likely to be hurt by an activity.

[madmusic]

36. You lost me, dsc.

What do you mean "put the decision on the child"? Do you mean the Netherlands? I agree it would not work in the States and am not suggesting we adopt their standards. The only point was that sometimes life in prison does not fit the crime.

They are educated on sex education from the beginning of school. They know well what abuse is.

http://www.metacrawler.com/info.metac/clickit/search?r_aid=020B210F21054E67BF76D9F75667A3A0&r_eop=6&r_sacop=20&r_spf=0&r_cop=main-title&r_snpp=20&r_spp=0&qqn=PfJDTto!&r_coid=374912&rawto=http://www.planetwire.org/get/6282?PHPSESSID=cc460aa2bcfe39e8d77ac770c891738e">Fact Sheet Young People and Sexuality in The Netherlands (doc). So they are taught sexual responsibility from a very young age and probably don't have all the baggage about sex that we do. For example, a documentary on the serial killer Ross was just on, and it delved into his childhood and how is father used to rape his mother in the next room. She took it out on him (Ross) through humiliation and abuse. Why doesn't that happen in the Netherlands?

[dsc]

43. I meant the Netherlands

I don't care how educated about sex a kid may be, sex will still entail a love relationship and turning in a sexual partner is difficult at best. Adult women with upper level degrees find themselves stuck in abusive relationships and unable to turn on the partner. How would one expect a child of 13 to do so?

[madmusic]

50. You would have a good point if...

They actually had sex at an earlier age than in the States. They don't, probably because they are so educated and aware. And if you checked the link, not only the children can press charges. The point is, prevention works and is far healthier than repression.

[mongo]

38. Really great post

I'm just a little disgusted by the notion that somehow it is inherantly not as bad to abuse a boy than a girl.

[madmusic]

51. That is understandable.

It often is, maybe usually is, maybe always is.

It is very complex and all the more so because so much of the issue is subjective.

Let's say a 14-year-old is in an accident and the doctor tells him, "You are ruined for life and will never be able to use your arm."

First, what would we think of that doctor? Second, what if the kid can use his arm? Would he think the doctor crazy? Would he think he himself is crazy? Or if he really can't use his arm, would he succumb to that or try to prove the doctor wrong? We do hear of cases like that. "You will never walk again." Wrong! The patient does walk again.

On the other side of the coin are really gut-wrenching cases. Anyone who reads appeals from sex offense cases who got life or really serious time will have to wonder sometimes, why doesn't this animal get death? Of course, that's why the defendant got so much time.

Everyone wants to prevent those crimes if possible. The question, how?

See, one difference of opinion is that I think viewing the problem from a public health perspective would be far more effective. We do not spend near enough on prevention. Prison is too late. Also, it is near impossible, for me anyway, to imagine LaFave burglarizing a house, finding a boy there and raping and killing him. I just can't see her doing ANYTHING like that. That of course by no means implies she wasn't culpable, but it does imply there are differences.

How easy is it to get images of heinous acts we see on the news out of our heads when we think of the issue? It's not easy for me. Just when typing that I "saw" in my mind's eye law enforcement digging behind Jessica Lunsford's house, and then instantly saw a picture of Polly Klass. Gut-wrenching. Rage. Helplessness. Same as when reading the appeals.

But all of those are the most extreme cases and it can take a lot of effort to realize LaFave does not logically tie in with those images. In fact, saying the 14-year-old suffered a fate worse than death, or that only murder is worse, might be a confusing of these images. Remember how glad we all were in Elizabeth Smart was found alive?

Or maybe, like with mad cow disease, it is best to just kill them all, just in case. My problem with that is that it is so contrary to the founding of our nation and the Constitution.

There is a balance in there somewhere and we have to find it.

[Marr]

35. Frankly, I think this does highlight a double-standard- but not

precisely the one you're outlining.

Women are rarely viewed as aggressive offenders in our society- even when they clearly *are*. When a woman kills, for instance, there isn't the same assumption of guilt that males receive. Last night's thread had some good examples- people seemed quite anxious to explain that LeFave must be a victim herself, and only responding to her abuse in this horrible, male-dominated world. I can't imagine a male offender in her position would've been afforded the same excuses.

I still say that a 14-year-old boy is no more likely to enjoy the sexual advances of a teacher than is a 14-year-old girl. Any perceived differences are the result of cultural standards, not biological differences.

[mmonk]

39. I detest pedophilia.

[mmonk]

40. The adult is in the position of power.

A female perpetrator is not less of a perpetrator.
A male victim is not less of a victim.

Child sexual abuse is child sexual abuse.
There is no mitigating factor. There is no excuse for child abuse.

[oldcoot]

42. Do the crime, do the time

A teacher who has sex with the student is behaving unethically regardless of the teacher's sex or student's sex. Any teacher who has sex-even if it is "consensual" sex- with a student should lose his or her license. If the student is under sixteen, then in many states, the teacher has committed statutory rape. And I do believe that law should be equally enforced regardless of sex.

If one determines sentencing for such offenses based on the psychological or emotional damage done to the victims, I would hesitate to assume that a male victim naturally suffers less than a female victim. After all, boys do fall in love and suffer from rejection. Instead, judges and juries should examine all factors in the case, and not just sex.

[mmonk]

44. I would be for increasing punishment

and remedy concerning male perps and female victims should a pregnancy result but I would refuse to consider female perps and male victims as any type of mitigating circumstance (as I posted earlier).

[LoZoccolo]

45. Why are feminists qualified to make all these assessments about men...

...and men themselves not qualified to make assessments about themselves? People are sick of that. Unless you are some kind of psychologist, you have no place making the psychological and emotional assessments. If men were to go around saying what goes on in the minds of women and judge them based on that, people would be up in arms.

[oldcoot]

46. Not all feminists are women and not all women are feminists

I have even heard non-feminists make similar assertions about the differences between the sexes and why female offenders should be treated differently than male offenders.

As for psychological and emotional damage, I agree that only a psychologist is qualified to comment on that about anyone. However, it is also worth noting that evidence that the victim suffered from any psychological damage may not appear right away.

[Sparkly]

64. I certainly didn't mean to claim to read men's minds.

I'm thinking of three differences, and as I said, from only one side of the equation. Two of the differences are pretty clear: physical differences, and double-standards in society's response to sexuality. The third I tried to present as "theory" -- something many psychologists claim. (Perhaps if the difference exists at all, it's more about the other two factors than something inherent in nature, and in any case I probably should have left it out.)

And I'm absolutely not meaning to judge. Apologies if it came off that way.

[Boomer]

48. Men and boys

The power disparities between adults and young teens in a sexual situation are sooo much more complicated than our laws can deal with.

I found my own assumptions and judgments rocked a bit by my gay male cousin's confession that he actively sought sexual encounters with adults since about the age of 14. He knew what he wanted, and he went looking for it.

Whether or not he should have found an adult willing to cooperate is another issue. But regardless of his success in this venture, he was not a traumatized victim. He had not been abused as a child. He was a horny teenage boy who liked older men.

That kind of aggressive sexual behavior may not be as common among girls, but I doubt you could rule out the possibility that some girls also seek out sexual gratification. So how do you protect the more vulnerable teen boys and girls and give greater latitude to others would not be harmed?

Regardless of sexual disparities, the best way to protect vulnerable teens of both sexes is to put them ALL off limits to adults. What's the worst that can happen with this law: some horny teens are frustrated for a few years until they turn 18. Whereas without those laws, the worst that can happen is that teenage girls and boys are traumatized by predatory adults who seek them out.

Discussing the underlying social and psychological issues of these laws is interesting, even enlightening, but I doesn't change my mind that those laws should stay just as they are.

[Withywindle]

53. Dan Savage wrote a column about this once

in response to the survey quoted above that challenged the idea of all adult/minor sex being necessarily damaging and traumatic to the minor. He knew a lot of gay men who, as teenagers, deliberately sought out sex with older men--partly just for pleasure, partly to learn about gay sex and gay life from someone with experience. He'd had an experience like this himself and didn't regret it one bit.

He wasn't going to condone it and celebrate it wholesale, but he wasn't going to call cases like this "abuse" either, because the people to whom it "happened" weren't calling it that. They didn't feel they'd been harmed by it at all, so who was he to try to convince them they had, or insult them by telling them their positive feelings were "incorrect"?

That kind of aggressive sexual behavior may not be as common among girls, but I doubt you could rule out the possibility that some girls also seek out sexual gratification.

You definitely can't rule it out! I was one. And no, some 20 years later, I still don't feel I was "abused" either.

which is NOT to say I am in favor of legalizing adult/teen sex wholesale. Far from it! I am only saying I agree with you, there are complexities that the law doesn't recognize.

The term "statutory rape," for example, which is insulting both to sexually active minors AND to survivors of real, violent, nonconsensual rape.

[dsc]

61. I agressively sought out a 21 year old

when I was 14. In retrospect it was a mistake but I really wanted to know what sex with a guy was like and I didn't want my whole school to know I was gay. I think a civilian adult is different from a teacher adult and that the difference in ages matters too. I do agree with the all off limits laws and let the courts sort out the rest.

[FILAM23]

49. In both cases they are child molestors and

should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.
In my own beleif is all child molestors should be executed.

[madmusic]

52. Child sex crime murders are VERY rare.

Do you think there would be a jump in child murders if there were mandatory execution laws for molesters? Why or why not? Do you think it would be worth it even if there was a jump?

[Nikia]

54. Teachers should be punished harshly regardless of their gender

Their victims may be harmed to varying extents, but that does not mean that the teacher didn't do something very wrong.
Students are vunerable. Any teacher who takes advantage of them must be treated harshly to show that this behavior is never acceptable.

[yasmina27]

56. As a teacher

with 20 years experience now :/ , I have to join in here.

I would never condone a colleague having an affair with a student, regardless of the age/gender difference.

When I was a new teacher of 21 years of age (and even as a student-teacher of 20) I had "crushes" on some of my older students (I taught HS). I NEVER EVER acted on those urges, knowing it was inappropriate. Had I run across one of those kids after they graduated - who knows, never happened so I can't say.

I've had students who had "crushes" on me, told me I was "hot" (this was 20 years ago! - before bearing children to a man who started teaching school when I was in 7th grade - no, he was not teaching in my school and I only met him after I started teaching!). I never encouraged them and always treated them with kindness and respect - nothing more.

I've known teachers who had affairs with students and gotten fired, and known teachers who had affairs with students who ended up getting married after the student graduated. I think there is a very fine line - particularly at the high school level where the girls dress to show off their newly acquired sexuality. If a male/female teacher has an affair with a male/female student who IS NOT ONE OF HIS STUDENTS, and is of legal age - jeez, wait 2, 6, 9 months until s/he graduates. For a teacher to have an affair with a student in his/her class, regardless of age is reprehensible - at any age. My best friend in college had an affair with a married professor while she was in his class. I'm sorry - that was WRONG - on both their parts, but more on his, because he was married and had her grade under his control. She was wrong because she was stupid - and I told her that.

[madmusic]

57. Do you think 15 years is too much?

Too little? Just right? Or was 3 years of house arrest fair?

I don't think anyone is trying to argue that teacher/student sex should be legalized or even condoned. Maybe the question is the harm done in comparison to the punishment and the equality/inequality question.

And did you ever report any indiscretions to the police? Did they deserve a long prison term? Is it possible the laws can become so severe they can backfire and make reporting less frequent? If so, could there be an optimal punishment as a deterrent? Did you ever hear of false accusations as revenge? Fifteen years is a lot to hold over someone's head.

And if we were talking actual pedophilia, there wouldn't be any debate at all. Well, maybe someone could debate that, but it would be far off topic.

[yasmina27]

59. fortunately or unfortunately

I was never aware of the situations until after the fact (except in the case of my college friend, in which no case of illegality existed - as far as immorality, I guess I could have reported it to the dean of the college or whatever, but at the time it never occurred to me).

In one situation, the girl had already graduated and she and her former teacher were engaged. In another, the girl informed the school district 15 years after the alleged affair (upon urging from her psychiatrist who was treating her for instability resulting from her affair). The teacher was fired. There are several other situations I could describe that were similar, but you get the picture.

In my experience the district prefers that the case be settled out of court. The teacher is removed from the classroom, teaching license in the state revoked (which doesn't necessarily mean they can't teach in another state - that's another discussion). In general the school districts don't want the publicity. I've never known of a case that went to court, but then I never knew of a case where the teacher had an affair with a child under HS age.

[Sparkly]

68. Yes, I know someone who did marry his student after she graduated.

He was fired, but not prosecuted legally. And perhaps not surprisingly, the marriage didn't last.

There was also a recent case of a very young male teacher who had consensual sex with a senior-year student which continued past her graduation as a serious relationship. (I hope I'm remembering this correctly.) As I recall, he was fired of course, but while she didn't want to press charges there was an effort to prosecute him... Someone else may remember it better than me.

[RoyGBiv]

62. I disagree with every bit of this ...

In one carefully constructed, apparently well-meaning post, you have turned feminism on its ear and given validation to every anti-feminist argument that has been put forth in the last century.

If these "differences" are justification for non-equal protection, and non-equal punishment in those cases where punishment is the result, then these differences are justification for every other manner of treating the genders unequally.

I have received some very nasty comments from people on DU because of my stance on this issue, and I have struggled mightily trying to avoid responding to this thread at the risk of receiving more of it. It offends me at a very deep level, a level so deep in my weaker moments I wish I could inflict on those offering these comments the kind of pain, emotional and physical, I have felt over the last three decades. But I find myself unable just to turn it off because this issue is very, personally important to me, and I am not just going to sit here and allow this teenage male fantasy be validated as anything other than a fantasy.

Simply stated, I believe you are entirely wrong in suggesting an adult female who rapes a male child should not be subjected to the same sort of punishment as an adult male who rapes a female child. And no matter what philosophical package you try to wrap around this, that is precisely what it is, rape. I never *EVER* thought I would find so many so willing on a forum like DU to justify so casually something so heinous, disgusting, and morally repugnant as rape or pedophilia.

As you say, flame away.

[dsc]

63. You have a lot of very valid points here

and I think you said it all.

[RoyGBiv]

70. Thank you ...

That's the first truly friendly comment I've received on this.

Something you said up-thread strikes at the heart of this, and since you responded here, I want to point it out.

You noted that when you were 14 your agressively sought out an adult for a sexual relationship.

This happens, a lot, probably more than adults who are parents want to admit, and it is typically for the reasons you said you had. They want to know what it's like, and in the situation of a homosexual youth, the reasons for seeking out someone outside a peer group is even more intense. One cannot blame a child for engaging in these kinds of behaviors, especially in this whacked out society in which we live that is so sexually repressed and tries to keep all this a Big Secret. I personally am certainly no prude in these matters and believe children should be taught, by adults, about sex and sexuality, but not to the point of actual practice sessions.

The woman at issue in this case said it herself, something like, "He wanted it, and I gave it to him." One would be hard pressed to find a male pedophile who did not say something similar. It's all badly formed justification that tries to ignore the fact the adult has exploited a child. Male pedophiles even offer expressions of feeling for their victims that seem like love. But it's not love. It's the result of various things, all of which have the commonality of a deep psychological malfunction in the victimizer. (And on that point, I do firmly believe these people should be *treated* rather than simply locked in a hole somewhere, but that's another matter.)

One of my best friends, a lesbian, was aggressively approached by a 15 year old girl over the course of a summer. She was in her mid-20's at the time. My friend understood what this girl was wanting, beyond the sexual experience, and they became friends. They never engaged in anything sexual, but my friend took on the role of an educator, a real one, who was able to introduce this young girl to people her own age and to support groups that could help her make her own, healthy relationships. She taught her what "lesbian sex" was in the same way a parent should have taught a child about sexuality. This girl had a real girlfriend, someone nearer her own age, within 6 months and was able to experience all the things she wanted to experience in a comfortable environment without the power relationship problems involved in adult-child relationships. Some 10 years later, these two are still friends, and they've never had a sexual relationship, and I doubt they ever will. They are both married to others, at least as far as they are concerned since the state in its "infinite wisdom" won't recognize their unions. They have a much more powerful relationship, though, and both are healthier for it.

[dsc]

90. I would have been far better off if he had done what your friend did

but not everyone can be so mature. But teachers certainly should be expected to be that mature. I am glad your friend and the young lady are still friends.

[Sparkly]

65. Disagreement is welcome.

First, I'm sorry that you're feeling pain from this discussion. I think the whole topic brings up various levels of discomfort for many of us.

I suggest that gender reversal in such cases isn't so clear-cut "the same," and raise the question of whether punishment should be the same. Yes, I can see how that can be construed as unequal protection, and even as anti-feminist.

On feminism and equality: I think there's a common misunderstanding of feminism as a belief in identical traits and experiences across genders. While we should have equal opportunities, rights, and eventually social fairness, we also have unique physical and cultural experiences that differ from men's. To me, if that's not recognized, it's parallel to rightwing claims that society is actually "color-blind" and since there is no racism, affirmative action is itself racist. We can hope a day comes when all truly IS equal, but we are not there yet.

On teenage male fantasy: While it's far from a scientific poll, I did take a measure of men's views of this particular case, here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x2147869 .

I am neither defending rape, nor challenging its definition, nor "justifying" anything about this case.

[RoyGBiv]

72. Let me clarify ...

I'm not feeling pain from *your* part of the discussion. I'm feeling pain from many of the responses to the discussion, especially some that were generated in response to your poll. I still firmly maintain (and will continue to do so until someone proves me wrong) that the answers to that poll were based almost entirely on the respondents' concept of a teenaged male fantasy and not actual experience and thus have no bearing on the actual question that should be asked, to wit, "Did you have sex with an adult female when you were 14 and did you feel violated, or have you suffered psychological consequences?" No one can truthfully answer the speculative nature of the question as asked.

And of course differences exist between the sexes, and massive differences exist between genders and gender roles. That does not mean we should accept that our notions of justice should be based on the distorted sense of proper gender identification we currently employ. If that were the case, we never would have gone past the point when women were required to wear skirts and could not be seen in public with a man except when walking several paces behind him.

Both male and female predators (and they are both predators) should be treated for the pyschological disorder that moves them to act the way they do. They should be treated equally by equally qualified psychiatrists and whatever other disciplines might come into play.

[Sparkly]

73. Thanks for the clarification.

I don't know how to "prove" anything about the men's answers to the poll, but I tried to preface by having them recall their 14-year-old selves, not reply as their (whatever-age) selves. It's far from scientific in any case, but I trust they remember their 14-year-old selves and answered honestly.

I think the relationship of justice and distortions in society, as you put it, is right on the mark. It goes to (as I said), affirmative action, EOE, support given to women-owned businesses, etc. The argument to do away with those things is essentially, "Everything is supposed to be equal, and this is unequal!" The counter is, "Everything is NOT equal, and in the meantime..."

I get your point about skirts and walking behind men -- in some cases, laws push us forward; in other cases, they remedy how far we're still behind. And again, while I raised the question, I have no answer for how or whether punishment should vary in cases like this one.

[RoyGBiv]

76. Poll answers ...

One further clarification since I do not seem to be getting my point across.

I too trust that they are answering as honestly as they can while trying to remember their 14-year-old selves. They're answering in the context of the fantasies they had. As a 14-year-old boy I had a fantasy about owning a Harrier jump jet and being able to park it in my back yard and fly it to school where I'd so impress all the girls that they'd all want to take a ride with me and have sex at 20,000 feet while flying at the speed of sound. And as a 14-year-old boy I never thought anything negative could come of this, like, say, blowing apart my neighbors houses from the exhaust from the jet or how exactly you have sex in a military plane.

Now, had I actually owned that jet and had I actually managed to get all the girls at school to have sex with me in it, I could probably tell you about the experience and what kind of problems it caused or didn't cause. Since that didn't happen, I can only speculate. And it still seems like a pretty cool fantasy.

Sillyness aside, my point is as I stated. The respondents by and large could offer whatever speculation they wanted about how they would have felt about such an experience, and the *speculation* would be truthful. They cannot answer the question of how it did make them feel or how it has affected them because the vast majority did not in fact have a sexual encounter with a "hot" teacher. Among those who did, the psychological and emotional effects may not be consciously known.

[Sparkly]

80. That's a possibility.

You're suggesting that without actual experience, they're not ABLE to answer accurately; and that even if they did have actual experience, they still might not "consciously" know its effects.

But I think it's a more basic thing to imagine than the complex fantasy you described; and I think I can fairly guess, on many matters, how I'd have felt about various things at age 14.

So while you suggest reasons the men answering the poll cannot answer it accurately, I see no evidence to convince me that they couldn't. Speculation isn't necessarily invalid.

[RoyGBiv]

85. Guessing, speculation, and making it up ...

One can fairly speculate about things for which a frame of reference is available. One frame of reference in this context would be what one is told to expect by peers, adults, or society at large. Boys expect sexual experiences to be these grand, wonderful, pleasurable events that turn them into men. Girls expect initial sexual experiences to be painful, rushed, perhaps coerced events that "take" something from them, i.e. their virginity. Our culture sets this frame of reference and to varying degrees actual experiences will resemble those expectations but be different in enough ways so that the initial expectation was not entirely accurate. For a boy, it might not be all that he expected, but still good. For a girl, it might not be as bad as she expected, but still not all that great. An entire range of actual experiences will be had. For some girls it might be wonderful. For some boys it might be horrible. None of these could have predicted, precisely, how the experience would compare to their expectations.

And that's simply the initial "event."

The psychological and emotional, and perhaps physical consequences come later, often much later. The further removed in time we are from the initial event, the more our initial expectations will diverge from reality. Again it can go in all manner of directions. As I suggested in a different thread, I fully expect that some boys who had a sexual relationship with an attractive teacher might come away from the experience satisfied, happy, and with no lingering negative consequences. On the other hand, no one can say for certain that this is the case. They can only guess, and the guessing is once removed from the speculation because the frame of reference is yet another step removed.

And eventually we get to the point where people just make stuff up. "If I had had sex with that hot teacher, I'd be a better lover today; I'd have a great story to tell; I never would have had a negative psychological consequence." No one knows that, nor can they speculate from a viable frame of reference.

I have never had an event in my life that mirrored, precisely, my expectations, and anyone who says their expectations always mirror reality is either lying or a prophet. To get away from this subject for a moment, when my grandmother died, I was profoundly sad. I knew I would be sad. I knew I would fall into a deep depression. I never knew, nor guessed, nor could have guessed, that I would become a raging alcoholic, start having sex with anything that moved because, as I learned in therapy, doing so allowed me to detach myself from my reality during the pursuit and act of sexual conquest. How does me becoming a lecher have anything to do with the death of my grandmother? The psychological connective tissue is deep and was consciously hidden until I received therapy that allow it to emerge. But more than that, how and by what logical process could I have speculated about that before it happened?

More on topic, how, at 12 or 13 or 14 when the events in my life that were shaping my future sexual psyche, could I have speculated that after my first fully consensual sexual experience with a person who was not a part of a power relationship with me that I would immediately begin crying uncontrollably and so terrify my partner that it would permanently and negatively affect our future relationship? And how could I have speculated about how the result of our brief union, a child who is today nearing her 17th year, was in turn affected by the result of that relationship. How is my daughter affected negatively or positively by being raised by a father, a step-father, and a father who she sees only occasionally by comparison to her other parental figures? See where I'm going with this? I'm approaching discussion of the butterfly effect. One ripple in the air can cause a hurricane. Someone may now come along and again tell me I'm over-thinking it. To that I will say simply that the problem men especially but to some extent women have in their sexual relationships is that they don't think enough.

Sure, speculation has its place, but without a proper frame of reference it is of limited use. As for as long-term consequences, personal speculation as to the effects of one's fantasy becoming a reality, such speculation is only barely a guide and, in my view, is not at all relevant to the type of inquiry we're wading through here.

[madmusic]

86. You're right. I mean, for all we know...

She has sharp teeth.

[RoyGBiv]

92. Just so you know ...

Just so you know I don't lack a sense of humor, that made me laugh openly. :-)

[Annces]

89. I wasn't sure to put a reply to this post because

I thought there may be someone who has had real experience with this and didn't want to say something stupid.

However after reading your posts, I think I know better how to state my opinion, which is that an adult who has a sexual relationship with a teenager is in the wrong and it is equally wrong whether it is adult female or adult male. A teenage boy may experience emotional trauma if he has this kind of relationship, that he may not even be aware of.

So I see the point that even though poll numbers were high for men thinking this was a good thing (sex with teacher), that actually represents a fantasy, and not necessarily reality.

[RoyGBiv]

93. Precisely ...

That is precisely what I am saying.

Thanks.

[Phx_Dem]

150. Thanks for your posts

in this thread. You are entirely correct. Everyone deals with things differently, but young men having sex with adult women is just not all fun and games, it can be extremely damaging.

[Sparkly]

94. I'm listening.

First, expectations: I think having HAD some sexual experiences, we CAN look back and think about our 14-year-old selves having (first, second, third, whatever) experiences of one kind or another. This case is particularly thought-provoking as an extreme example, I think, because the woman is undeniably beautiful. I *think* men who answered the poll envisioned their 14-year-old selves with a "zipless" experience like this and weren't too concerned about her technique, or their egos, or imagining they'd have to be coerced or forced. (I don't know, but that certainly fits with my experience on this side of the equation.)

Girls, from my experience, are NOT told "it will be wonderful," or that it's a "score," or "getting" something, or achieving something. In the very recent past, girls were told it was something to endure! We heard, "If you love me, you will." There was no finish-line for high-fives -- there was a secret girls worked to justify. "Giving in" vs. "Getting laid," "Putting out" vs. "Taking a piece," the language itself is obvious, and it's PERVASIVE -- in jokes and movies, in music and on talkshows, on sitcoms and in casual conversation repeatedly -- it permeates our culture. That is a HUGE difference.

Second, I agree that no one can guess how a particular boy will react from a particular event with a particular woman. As I understand this case, the boy's mother said he appears to suffer no ill effects. He didn't suddenly appear withdrawn or lose interest in activities or friends, etc.; in this case, his friends told their parents who told his parents...

Third, about people "making stuff up" -- again, I do think adults can speculate fairly accurately on things like this.

Fourth, about your own experiences... I hear you. It sounds like early experiences had a profound impact on your life, and others'. I understand how strongly you feel about it. You reversed the equation, though, to say that your 12, 13, 14 year old self couldn't forsee -- "speculate" -- the future. So perhaps you're equating that with my question to men about having an experience like the one this boy had with LaFave. Two issues weren't introduced here: STDs and pregnancy. I suppose they could have been; you might argue they should have been. But my question was more direct, isolated a particular set of events, apart from potential consequences that didn't occur in this case -- and consequences that did.

[RoyGBiv]

134. I think we'll have to agree to disagree ...

And just leave it at that.

I don't disagree entirely with your position, nor especially your discussion of differences. I fully disagree on the utility of the poll you posted, which is the agree to disagree part because I think we're at an impasse there. I could discuss the issue more fully, but I have been unable to find the appropriate articles I would need to do so online in a form that actually allows you to read the entire study and its conclusions. I've become somewhat obsessive about keeping abreast of mental health issues related to sexual abuse, and I have never run across anything that suggests people are able to predict as adults how they would have reacted to incidents that happened when they were children. More practically, what I have read has lead me to the conclusion that in almost all cases, be they male or female, any level of sexual encounter involving a power relationships (adult/child) has varying degrees of negative pyschological results.

I'll just offer one final comment on this line. I have not mentioned this before because, deep down, I think it's irrelevant, but perhaps it might explain a bit further how I think of all this. I didn't, for the most part, think negatively of the experiences I had when they were happening. At first, they were pleasurable, if a bit confusing. The negative psychological effects I experienced were not known even to me, much less anyone around me, until I was 19 years old, and those effects did not hit a dangerous point for my personal well-being until a few years after that, after the death of my grandmother, when I retreated into a bottle. I won't go into all the gory details of how it's all connected, just note that it is and that I, as an adult, could not have foreseen any of it, thinking as a 14 year old boy.

[madmusic]

83. Wow, a lot of prejudice and stereotype?

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2294/is_1-2_50/ai_113419428/pg_1">Influence of gender roles on perceptions of teacher/adolescent student sexual relations.

Not only do women appear to be more aware of what constitutes child sexual abuse (e.g., Broussard et al., 1991), but women also tend to hold more provictim attitudes (Rubin & Thelen, 1996; Spencer & Tan, 1999) regardless of the gender composition of the dyad (Broussard et al., 1991). In contrast, men have a tendency to make more distinctions based on the specific gender composition of the dyad. For example, in a study by Fromuth et al. (2001), it was found that although women did not make such a distinction, men viewed a dyad involving a female teacher and a male adolescent as less abusive than a dyad involving a male teacher and a female adolescent.

As seen in Table I, respondents indicated that students involved in same-gender dyads, particularly the male teacher/male student dyad, would become more confused about sexual orientation than would students involved in cross-gender dyads. Male respondents viewed a scenario involving a female teacher as being a more positive sexual experience and having a more positive effect on future sexual attitudes than a scenario involving a male teacher (see Table III). Statistically, female respondents did not make any distinction based on the gender of the teacher.

Psychological Harm to the Student

Respondents believed that a male student involved with a male teacher would be the most likely to be very upset, experience future psychological problems, and need psychological counseling as a result of the experience (see Table I).

As seen in Table II, women were more likely than men to report that the student would be upset by this encounter and would experience future psychological problems.

Legal Ramifications

As seen in Table I, respondents were more likely to find a male teacher involved with a male student guilty of sexual battery by an authority figure than either the male teacher/female student dyad or the female teacher/male student dyad. Compared to same-gender dyads, respondents were less likely to agree that a female teacher involved with a male student should lose her teaching license. In contrast, compared to other gender dyads, respondents were less likely to indicate that a male teacher involved with a male student should not be punished.

So, guys who voted in the majority, the womens think we would be abused whether we would think so or not.

[RoyGBiv]

88. Interesting ...

Thanks for this.

One thing I want to focus on here is a bit separate from the point I think you were making, or perhaps I'm missing that point.

Regardless, note the difference in how males felt about a sexual encounter between a male teacher and a male student as opposed to a female teacher and a male student. My problem with many of the responses to this issue is buried in that difference.

From my point of view, neither the sexual experience, the sex of those involved, nor the gender roles attributed to each is the main issue. The issue is the power relationship. An adult is an authority figure, perhaps only a subtle authority figure, but an authority of some degree just the same. But the point has been raised before, and I will raise it again. A teacher is definitely an authority figure, and the power relationship cannot be removed from this equation, no matter the sex of those involved or how much either supposedly "wanted it." One is a victim, one a predator. This study indicates that males acknowledge this to some degree but that their internal stereotypes of individuals with differing sexual orientations alters their perception.

I haven't read the whole thing yet, but I plan to do so. Again, thanks.

[madmusic]

95. You're welcome.

And I agree with your point but one one word. The use of "predator." That is really the basis of the whole debate when it comes down to it. Is LaFave a predator? Most of the men who voted don't even think she is a criminal.

predator

1 : one that preys, destroys, or devours
2 : an animal that lives by predation

Maybe the word is so overused and has become almost meaningless. Or maybe it is just a difference of opinion, with most of the guys not thinking of her that way. But at the same time we/they might realize there cannot be anarchy either.

One thing no one has brought up is that rather than her getting her 15 years, maybe 15 years is too much for either gender. That is more than many degrees of murder.

[RoyGBiv]

97. 15 Years ...

I only briefly touched on that subject because I think it is a somewhat different subject because of the path this discussion has taken.

What I noted was that I think these people need treatment, not necessarily just thrown in a hole somewhere. On that, I do see a vast area of gray where differences in situations could come into play. I mean, are we talking about someone who kidnapped a child, tied them up, and forcibly sodomized them regularly, or are we talking about the 18 year old with the 16 year old girlfriend in a state where the ago of consent is 17? Some of the current laws are so stringent that little if any distinction is made between these two, vastly different circumstances. The latter case, imo, doesn't even deserve "treatment" in the traditional sense of the word.

The woman at issue here has an obvious psychological disorder for which she has not been properly treated. Without that disorder, or with proper treatment, would she have committed the offense? I doubt it. Male pedophiles are often individuals who have similar psychological issues, some of them having been subjected to abuse for which they didn't receive treatment, often abuse they never thought of as abuse.

As for the word predator, I use it deliberately because I, personally, see an adult who seeks sexual encounters with children as one who preys on a child's naive nature. Perhaps it isn't the proper word for all situations.

[Sparkly]

98. Fascinating -- and the questions to me are....

Are those results about cultural mores and "stereotypes?"

And if they are, does that MATTER, since that's what we all live with? (That's what makes great impact on girls vs. boys, women vs. men...)

Is this "common sense" result "fair," or is it "accurate?" (And why?)

Thanks for posting this. :hi:

[madmusic]

112. You're welcome. I wondered all those things, too.

And don't have an answer, but will say, fair or not, had I been part of the survey, I would have answered as the majority did. That is: male teacher/male student, the worst, female teacher/male student, the best.

That doesn't seem fair to the gay male student who wants to get laid, if he does, but there it is.

[Sparkly]

115. Me, too! And why is that??

I mean, some of it is surely biological. But a LOT of it has to be cultural.

And when we (and those answering that survey, and the poll I posted here) get a "gut reaction" or a "common sense" thing that defies logic, what are we going on?

That's why I kept questioning the schism between thoughts that "It's all equal" and a gut sense that "It is NOT the same."

I think the male teacher/male student may be considered "the worst" because it involves all the things I mentioned for girls, and then some -- notably, physical, painful penetration and vulnerability, AND social messages of shame afterwards, multiplied, I imagine. At the opposite extreme, in the survey, female teacher/male student has the least physical impact, AND the least psycho-social impact. Fair or not, that's where we are!!

[madmusic]

126. As your second poster asked (paraphrased)

How much of the shame -gays- feel has to do with society?

If anything, they would probably feel a greater burden than girls do who "put out."

Just thought of something else. The recidivist rate is the highest for man/boy offenders. Maybe that is because it is so much harder for them to talk through their issues. That is not to say, of course, that stigma causes it, but it is possible it might prolong offending. And the freedom to talk about before it was too late maybe, perhaps, could have prevented it some.

All this is just part and parcel to my belief that repression is not the best solution.

[RoyGBiv]

130. Ability to talk ...

I'd like to highlight that point for a moment because I think it is an incredibly important one. I don't know where I'd be today or how my life may have turned had I not been able to talk and had I not inadvertently received therapy for what happened to me when I was young when it came out in the process of treatment for depression. I don't know that I would have been one of those that continues a cycle of abuse because I never got to the point where these kinds of thoughts entered my mind. But it scares me knowing what has happened to others who have been in similar positions who did not receive treatment.

The "ability to talk" exists on two levels. One is as you described, an ability lessened by the social stigma involved. The other is legal, and the latter is, to my mind, more harmful than the former, in part because it reinforces the former and assures that those who would engage in such behaviors actively refuse to seek help, or even admit a problem exists outside their own minds, if there.

I must admit I don't know how pervasive such laws are, how they are implemented, or to what degree they are faithfully followed, but I do know that in certain places laws exist that require a psychiatrist or psychologist to report patients who admit to desires relating to pedophilia to law enforcement authorities. This then can and often does result in an arrest and imprisonment with a subsequent cessation of therapy, except the kind inflicted in a jail cell. Some penal systems do offer therapy of a type, and again I admit to not knowing of all the varieties or how effective they might be. All I do know for sure is that an acquaintance who is an psychologist once discussed this issue in a paper he wrote while working toward his degree. (We were in a human sexuality class together.) His conclusion was that the system of treatment/punishment was constructed in such a way so that recidivism was almost ensured, that few, if any, pedophiles would receive the kind of proper treatment they needed. Indeed, few would even be diagnosed beyond the obvious. Pedophilia is treated by the law enforcement community as a problem in and of itself without underlying causes. With the woman under discussion here, this is clearly wrong, as her improperly diagnosed psychological disorders and subsequent improper treatment to some degree led to the result of her sexual encounter with the boy.

The saddest part is that pedophiles are very often themselves victims who never received treatment and of course create the proverbial cycle of abuse. These people need treatment, need an avenue in which they can seek it safely, can talk about their feelings and desires that, as long as no actual abuse takes place, can be treated without imprisonment being the actual result. And if there were ever candidates for psychiatric institutions as opposed to general population prisons, pedophiles are them. Murderers are put in psychiatric institutions. Pedophiles are fed to the wolves. I speak not here of violent offenders or murderers of children, but the type of offender that most who eventually move on to violence and possibly murder are in the beginning, the kind that seek out pornography or casual, somewhat "safe" relationships with relatives or close family friends and who perhaps never progress beyond that. Based on what I've read here and there, at this stage, most of these people have at least a subconscious awareness that something is wrong with their behavior that manifests itself consciously in their attempts to hide the behavior, but they feel helpless to stop it, and as they progress, they find no avenues to seek help. The cycle eventually progresses to tragedy and has the potential to start all over again with the next generation.

You see the problem even on DU, a place where the more liberal mindset might seem to be the norm but often isn't on such morally decadent subjects. "Kill the bastard" is a common theme, with male offenders anyway, with no thought to treatment or even discovery of the causes of the offense. The problem is so pervasive, in fact, that only when prompted on a deep emotional level to respond to a line of discussion do I even admit that I am the victim of abuse, fearing that the natural inclination of those reading the admission will be to assume I myself am a candidate for being an abuser. That is, I am afraid to talk to strangers especially but also close friends even though I have never been an abuser, have never had a thought of being an abuser, and in fact have worked hard the entire span of my daughter's life making sure that no one came close to abusing her or anyone around her. If I have trouble talking, just think of the trouble someone in a more compromising position would have.

[Bunny]

66. Thank you!

It's never okay for an adult to prey on a child, especially an adult in a position of power and authority over the child. It's wrong, it's always wrong, and it should be condemned equally, regardless of age and gender. It's sickening to see so many people here try to assert degrees of wrongness, based on gender. Either it's wrong for everyone, or it's wrong for no one.

[Sparkly]

71. "Degrees of wrongness"

My post was not about "degrees of wrongness," but about differences of experience and impact for the young student.

Do you think the experiences and impacts for a 14-year-old boy and a 14-year-old girl are exactly the same, with a very attractive 23-year old teacher? Is there any difference at all, physically or psychologically? I think there is. I'm not sure what the legal implications of that would be, if any; but I raise the question.

[RoyGBiv]

75. Let me ask you this ...

There seems to be an assumption in all this that teenage girls never seek out sexual relationships with adult males, or at least that if they do, they are doing so for reasons other than a basic sexual desire. That is a fundamentally incorrect assumption as indicated in several studies of sexuality among females done in the last few decades. (The _Hite Report_ was one of the first to make this discovery and take it to a very public audience, but some question her methodology in the manner of compiling statistics, so one might not be able to trust the statistics. Still, the fact was there, that some young females, probably an even more significant minority at the time of her study than today, who are not abused or neglected in other ways do in fact seek out sexual relationships with adult males purely for reasons of wanting to explore sex and sexuality, usually because they want someone they perceive as "experienced.")

Just among my circle of friends, I know two women who, as girls around the age of 15 or so, sought out sexual relationships with "college guys" and pretty much got every one of those relationships they wanted. And among their peer group as youth, which was mostly guys and a couple girls who engaged in the same kinds of behaviors, all for different reasons deep down, they were "high-fived" or at least not thought of negatively, except in the form of jealousy. Did they suffer psychological consequences? I'd say based on my amateurish psychoanalysis that they definitely did, even if they don't consciously realize it now and certainly didn't at the time. I won't go into the details to avoid getting off the point.

So, my question is this. How are these adult males who took up these girls' offers of sex (He wanted it, and I gave it to him) to be categorized under the dichotomy you've developed?

[Sparkly]

82. "the dichotomy you've developed"

Please understand that I'm NOT "developing a dichotomy" -- I am describing a real dichotomy no one has refuted: the dichotomy of male and female both physically, and experientially in our culture.

"How are these adult males to be categorized," you ask. I'm not sure why you think I am "categorizing" anyone.

As for adolescent girls seeking sexual experience -- far be it from me to say that never happens. From my life experience, I think it is far less common for girls to seek or desire sexual intercourse than boys -- but I have no science on that and as you suggest, no irrefutable science exists that I know of. (And I absolutely separate the urge for intercourse from girls' sexual feelings, urges, orgasms, etc. Without getting too detailed, it's another difference.)

As for your friends being "high-fived" among their peer group at the time: I wonder how they feel in retrospect. Because, as I said, the message from society -- and it is a VERY pervasive message -- is that girls should feel sorry, guilty, ashamed, dirty, used, slutty, bad, damaged, impure, less than other girls, etc., after "giving it up" (as posted here very recently) or "losing it" or "putting out," etc... Even if she's to naive to know it at the time, she'll get the message soon enough.

Boys, looking back, "got laid." (The girl "gives it," the boy "gets it.") Boys are congratulated by the culture at large. It's an OPPOSITE message.

It is different.

[madmusic]

74. As I said in my private message, no flames from me.

And as also mentioned, I know of the pain you speak.

I mean this with all due respect, so please don't take offense, but this is why you could not serve on a jury for any kind of sex offense, or maybe any crime; no impartial judge or prosecutor would allow it if they knew you were so passionate.

That is not in any way imply you are wrong to feel the way you do. I don't presume to judge or challenge your feelings.

But it just occurred to me - John Walsh, Marc Klas and Mark Lunsford also would probably not be allowed to serve on a jury, and yet they probably dictate more than anyone else what laws we pass. Again, they are not wrong either and they all have their First Amendment rights, but it does perhaps explain the lack of well thought-out laws due to the recurring moral panic.

Law made of pain is not law at all, but is revenge. While the lust for revenge is understandable, and maybe sometimes even right, the law tries its best through the Constitution to be impartial. That benefits us all.

"The most sacred of the duties of a government -is- to do equal and impartial justice to all citizens" --Thomas Jefferson, Note in Destutt de Tracy, 1816.

Again, no offense, but a fair administration of law in your case may not be fair in another.

[RoyGBiv]

77. Fully aware of that ...

I was called to jury duty once, and one of the cases that was to be heard touched on a sexual abuse theme. When asked, I told truthfully that I could not serve on this jury.

I make no claims at impartiality in these matters.

And your private message was all that needed to be said. We're cool.

[madmusic]

78. Thanks.

Good to know.

[Mass]

149. Thank you.

[lumberjack_jeff]

154. Damn. I wish I could have said it as well as you.

Fully agreed.

[athena]

172. I'm a feminist, and I disagree vehemently with the OP.

Thank you, RoyGBiv, for your words:

In one carefully constructed, apparently well-meaning post, you have turned feminism on its ear and given validation to every anti-feminist argument that has been put forth in the last century.
...
I believe you are entirely wrong in suggesting an adult female who rapes a male child should not be subjected to the same sort of punishment as an adult male who rapes a female child. And no matter what philosophical package you try to wrap around this, that is precisely what it is, rape.

Only a couple of decades ago, people argued that rape was not a serious crime because women, deep down, wanted to be raped. They said a woman "asked for it" if she dressed provocatively or invited a man into her home. They said prostitutes could not be raped, and wives could not be raped by their husbands. What the OP argues -- that boys, deep down, want to be raped -- is no better than this. Any non-consentual sexual encounter is a rape, period, regardless of the gender of the people involved. And by definition, an underage person -- male or female -- cannot give consent. That's all there is to it.

I am a feminist, and I am ashamed to be associated with people like the OP. I am ashamed that so many women who call themselves feminists will not make the effort to think for themselves but will mindlessly regurgitate such crap. You can think about the meaning of "penetration" as much as you want, but in the end, you have to come back to reality and think about what you're really saying.

[melnjones]

182. Friend,

you are not the only one who holds these viewpoints. Be encouraged :hi:

[Odin2005]

67. I think the problem is the "where were those hot teachers when I was 15"

response people have if a young man bonks a teacher, as opposed to "I'll kill that fucking sicko" response if it's an adult man bonking a young woman. It's a pathetic double standard based on Victorian notions of sexuality.

[Sparkly]

69. Is that all it's based on?

That's what I'm asking.

Are the men on DU who responded to my poll in the majority stuck in Victorian notions of sexuality? (That's a serious question, not a rhetorical one.)

[LostInAnomie]

102. Your poll demonstrated the honesty that comes with anonymity.

The truth is that the majority of males would have jumped at the chance to have sex with "the hot teacher" when they were 14.

I think the Victorian notions of sexuality come into play when such questions are aired in the public sphere. People are afraid to admit what they really think about the issues. As a result, we never get to have an open and honest discussion where it would really matter. The result is that we get obtuse laws that give greater weight to old views on sexual morality than to the actual damage that is done. This is especially true when it comes to females. The idea that females may actually want to have sex before the age of 18 is anathema to how our society views sex.

[Sparkly]

111. I agree with much of that.

Frankly, I don't think "Victorian" or even "Puritanical" are quite what people think of them as being these days... (It wasn't all that different from now, in regard to sex and gender.)

It does seem a LOT more men voted than feel like entering into the discussion, but I'm not sure that's because they're unwilling to admit things. Sometimes people just have a second to vote and don't feel like spending time delving into it.

I'm not sure what, if any, implications should have on laws. I'm just saying it's not a simple "flip" of an equation -- not a simple reverse, or equal switch of gender roles.

[LostInAnomie]

122. This is kind of a tricky case in the first place.

The teacher wasn't actually the boy's teacher so she didn't really have any authority to use as leverage. The teacher did not use violence in any way. The sex by all accounts was consensual. The boy's mother says that the boy is healthy and normal and exhibits no emotional problems.

So far, the biggest concern I have seen voiced in this thread is the emotional "scars" that young men would face in their future. But I think that overstates the actual emotional attachment boys of that age have with sex. It may be an over generalization, but males simply do not place that much emphasis on the emotional aspects of sexual activity. To say that it will cause them to look at women as sexual objects, or make them not form emotional attachments with the women in their lives seems like a confusion of causation.

That is not to say that we should be more permissive of adults having sex with minors. I think that in the case of consensual sex though the sentences should be based more upon the actual damage done. The problem with that though is emotional damage is hard to assess, and would lead to a lot of subjective judgments. This would not be acceptable. But the alternative would be going back to a system that judges all crimes equally when all circumstances are not the same.

[Odin2005]

173. Bingo.

[ShortnFiery]

79. Gosh, that "lame joke" has gotten so old and on so many levels - not cute

Hey, if SOME OLDER MEN think it's cool, then that's just sad and truly SEXIST.

However, I find such attitudes disgusting and none of THIER son's will ever score a date with any of my daughters. :grr: :shrug:

[madmusic]

87. Does age have anything to do with it?

Anyone in or fresh out school who voted?

And no offense, but it's unlikely you'll change thousands of years of evolution with condemnation.

[ShortnFiery]

99. In civilized society, it's learned and rewarded demented behavior

Anyone who seduces a CHILD - JUVENILE (under 18 years of age) is a IMO a deplorable excuse of a human being. Further, they should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law, regardless of whether "The Perpetrator" is "Hot" or just your "average looking" run of the mill kind of ADULT. :puke:

It is the responsibility of "The Adult" of either gender, to NOT take advantage of a youth who has not fully formed their emotional maturity. :(

[Raydawg1234]

84. you feminists can't have it both ways

But, I agree with you. Debra LaFave is hot!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I mean this is like right out of a Van Halen song!

That's like every boy's fantasy, to bang the incredibally hot teacher.

[ShortnFiery]

100. The Van Halen Song is cool, BUT if "The Teacher" ACTS ON the crush

"She's a criminal."

That's not "having it both ways" but what we fondly refer to as Emotional Maturity and respecting the Wefare of Minors rather than getting our Adult "NADs off." :thumbsdown:

Me = Proud Feminazi who's far from weird nor incongruent re: Men and Women have equal responsibility as Adults TO NOT sexually abuse our youth. ;)

[Raydawg1234]

105. abuse? we should have more teachers like her,

school would have rocked!

[BlooInBloo]

91. I think the idea that they're the same is laughable....

However, I'm still ok with punishing them both equally - mostly just to shut up the "unequal!" screaming crowd - which overlaps heavily with the "reverse racism!" crowd - I'm just sick of hearing those jackasses' voices.

But yah, the idea that, in typical cases, the 14 yo boy is harmed just as much as the 14 yo girl is asinine. It requires a jackasses, unmotivated, and unnecessary notion of "equality" to say otherwise.

[Sparkly]

96. You (and many others) articulate the "common sense."

"Common sense" looks at that beautiful woman and says, "Abuse?" (Bill Maher said, "Oh please, that is NOT abuse.") I asked my teenage daughter about it this evening, and her instinct was the same.

(Of course, outside looking in, these are all generalities and every individual case may vary.)

Sometimes "common sense" is NOT right -- it can be a product of cultural mores and messages that aren't based in reality. And as someone who's questioned those for a long time, when I kept getting a gut reflex "it's not the same; it's not simple reversal," I had to think about WHY that might be...

So first I polled DU men -- sure enough, the results speak for themselves.

And I thought, maybe "common sense" -- the common reaction from all our experiences in THIS culture at THIS time -- is correct. Much as we WANT absolute equality, and to be able to flip every equation for the same result, I don't think it is.

(And there are OTHER variables too, of course -- an unattractive, much older, coercive woman using her authoritative power to give a BJ to a 14-year-old while he's holding back tears is different from this situation...)

I think sex and gender are very complicated; and sometimes when "common sense," gut reactions tell us something our intellects defy, "common sense" MIGHT have a point...

(I'm not sure what can or should be done about that legally -- that's the question.)

I appreciate the disagreements AND posts like yours, just saying it as you see it from your experience, directly.

[ShortnFiery]

101. Perhaps I'm strange but if it was my son who was seduced, I'd raise HELL

This is sick behavior and should not ever be wink winked or condoned.

We can only imagine what kind of emotional problems this young man may have in time. Any guy that brags about having sex with an adult woman as a juvenile doesn't realize that there are SCARS. It's not right - it's not what we should say is appropriate in the 21st Century.

[Sparkly]

103. I think you voice another side of what's considered "common sense"

but I've long questioned that.

I try to put things in the context of human NATURE. (In a sense, that's my "religion.") Adolescent NATURE has boys and girls capable, at least, of procreating. (Again, the results of sexual intercourse are necessarily more painful, more socially consequential, and more life-changing for girls than those required from boys.)

In all honesty, I am not convinced it's "sick" for a boy of 14 to welcome the advances of a woman like LaFave. I DO think she acted from mental illness. I'm not convinced that he'd necessarily have "scars" were it not for parental, legal, and media judgments about it.

One question you raise: "Is it APPROPRIATE?"

Another question you raise: "Is it SICK?"

And yet more questions: "Does it automatically involve scars?" If so, "Why do those scars occur?" And, "IS IT THE SAME for girls and boys?"

I suggest it is NOT the same. I suggest "inappropriate" is a cultural issue about convention, which doesn't necessarily invalidate the criticism, as far as it goes. And I suggest that "sick" is a term easily-applied to whatever doesn't suit convention, but in this case, may well apply (to LaFave, as an adjective for a serious mental illness).

I'm suggesting we take this case as an opportunity to challenge our thinking.

[mongo]

161. I don't think you are challenging our thinking

when you rely on all the same old cultural stereotypes to reinforce your argument.

Maybe consetual sex between a teenager and adult reguardless of gender is not the life damaging abuse that it is perceived to be when the minor is a girl.

But, as pointed out above, any scientific study suggesting that would be condemmed by congress.

[Odin2005]

174. Good post.

Our notion of becoming an adult at 18 is extremely unusual when you compare modern western society with other societies, in most societies you are considered an adult at around the age of 14. I don't like the "teens are emotionally immature" argument either, IMO our society intentionally retards the emotional development of teens. I have always found it dispicable that a 15 year old is called a boy/girl we should be calling that person a young man/young woman, we need to quit juvenalizing teenagers.

[BlooInBloo]

104. I might well raise hell too... *that's* not what's different...

... What's different is, so to speak, that if it was my son, I wouldn't (typically) feel the need to seek out "therapy" or "rape counseling" or whatever they call it for my son. Typically.

I'm not sure I'd go so far as to high-five my son, but I don't think I could punish him for high-fiving his friends (and yes, they will high-five), and keep a straight face.

EDIT: I could, however, see myself punishing him for not using protection. lol!

[ShortnFiery]

106. I don't think you fully realize that there can be emotional problems

well after the CRIME. Whenever an Adult seduces a child there's emotional damage, not just mere sex acts involved. :(

I'm really sorry that you feel that way. Yes, I would get my son counseling and I'd also do my damnedest to make sure the Woman Perpetrator is NOT EVER around juveniles again.

Why don't you check your local Sex Offender "data base" and discover that in increasing number of Sex Perverts are *adult women* some of whom have sex with 12 year old boys.

It's not ever OK and not ever benign to the victim. Yes, the vast majority of mental health professionals would concur, at a minimum, counseling is in order for the victim.

[BlooInBloo]

108. And I don't think you fully realize what the word "typically" means.

[ShortnFiery]

109. I know from education and observing the testimonies of both Perpetrators

and victims of "Sex Crimes" that An Adult seducing a juvenile is A CRIME - Always!

That the emotional scars are very real and surface IN EVERY CASE with time. I know from experiences that although it's normal to be "Hot for Teacher" on the Boy's part, "The Teacher" is a criminal if she has SEX with the juvenile.

There's NOTHING typical when we are addressing an Adult "sexually abusing" a juvenile - even if after the event he thinks that "it's cool." Even Boys who are victims of WOMEN suffer emotional damage from this CRIME.

[BlooInBloo]

113. Now you're just talking about something I never said anything about...

Yes - it's a crime - Way emphasize something I never suggested was false, captain obvious.

(shrug) I know from having the experience of being a 15 yo boy, and having known (approximately) jillions of other 15 yo boys there would have typically no significant emotional damage. If your experience teaches you differently, I can live with that.

I especially love, though, your combination of claims "there's nothing typical..." and "... IN EVERY CASE...". lol! That's the sign of true genius.

Apparently there's "nothing typical" when it comes to what *I* say. When it's *your* turn though, there does exist something typical - "in every case" even. Bravo! Absolute genius!

[ShortnFiery]

114. I've miffed you, but no, having sex with a minor is not ever TYPICAL

It's understood that you don't know for a fact, and won't believe me - but years of education in the Mental Health Field has taught me the above truism.

You don't see the emotional damage but it is there. Please feel free to educate yourself with some of the Social Psychology Journals.

Many men don't want to admit that being sexually abused as a juvenile is NOT "typically" OK because it's something one can brag about in the locker room. But I submit that, if they don't emotionally deal with the fact that they were, in fact, VICTIMIZED (used by an Adult), it will lead to increased emotional problems later in life.

The double standard can NOT ever deny the fact that the Juvenile was *abused* by an adult. That is what happened although most males will not take a moment to be introspective about the entire seduction and it's emotional aftermath.

No, this is one CRIME that you can NOT make exceptions because the emotional damage, if not addressed immediately, will surface later and negatively effect the quality of the Victim's life, girl OR boy.

Let's now please, at least, consider ceasing with the bravado(a) and posturing?

We've reached an impasse. Nothing more, nothing less. :shrug:

[BlooInBloo]

118. You haven't miffed me in the least. You have contradicted yourself...

... however, and are either completely incapable of seeing it, or are deliberately pretending you didn't.

Either way, well, the obvious conclusion follows...

Heckuvan impasse, indeed.

[ShortnFiery]

120. I respect your opinion as well. :-)

I'm glad that we could end this disagreement in a civil manner.

Sincere Best Regards, SnF

[Phx_Dem]

151. sex addiction

"....
In the late 1970’s, Patrick Carnes, a psychologist and researcher, was instrumental in the initial identification and treatment of sexual addiction as a condition. After a ten year research, Carnes estimated about 8% of the total population of men and 3%of women are sexually addicted. That adds up to 15 million people who suffer from this problem"

"The beginnings of sexual addiction are usually rooted up in adolescence or childhood. It is found that 60% of sexual addicts were abused by someone in their childhood (Book, 1997,pp 52)"

http://allpsych.com/journal/sexaddiction.html

[mongo]

162. Why there's no such thing as sex addiction

and why it really matters

http://www.sexed.org/archive/article08.html

[Phx_Dem]

164. beg to differ

I have no doubt that this disorder is being exploited by some people. 12 step programs in particular are not scientifically based, so it's really no surprise that some of these programs are debatable.

It should not be surprising to find that this "new" disorder is being exploited by religionists, but it does not make it any less real.

Generally it takes time for "new" disorders to make their way into the DSM.

[mongo]

165. What exactly makes this a "new" disorder?

Could it be that after a couple of decades of shifting towards a more sexually liberated society we are now shifting back in the other direction?

And not too long ago the DSM listed homosexuality as a disorder too. AFAIK BDSM is still listed as a "disorder".

Obsessive-compulise behavior is just that, whether it manifests as hand washing a hundred times a day or seeking un-healthy sex (whatever that is).

The problem with the idea of "sex addiction" is that it is used to describe any behavior that a person does not agree with.

[madmusic]

170. Agreed. "Just say no" is no good.

Where is the healthy model of sexuality?

The sexual addiction model of human sexuality is moralistic, arbitrary, misinformed, and narrow. Excluded from this model are using sex to feel good; having "bad" fantasies; and enjoying sex without being in love. Where is the theoretical justification for this moralistic position?

We've seen this before: the concept of sin as sickness. It has led to sincere attempts to "cure" homosexuality, nymphomania, and masturbation--by the world's leading social scientists, within our own lifetime. It is outrageous to treat sexual problems without a model of healthy sexuality that relates to most people's experience. The sexual addiction concept shows a dramatic ignorance of the range of typical human sexuality.

At the end of competent sex therapy or psychotherapy treatment, the patient is a grown-up, able to make conscious sexual choices. Sex addiction treatment offers a patient the chance to be a recovering sex addict. Which would you rather be?

[Sparkly]

123. Hold up there.... "IN EVERY CASE?"

"the emotional scars are very real and surface IN EVERY CASE with time?"

That's beyond believable or provable. There is no such evidence.

I know you're speaking from commonly-accepted "common sense" -- but how do you KNOW that all 14-year-old boys who have sex with a woman like LaFave are "victims?"

According to men on DU -- who I consider the most enlightened of men as a group -- there'd be no ill-effects. Are they deluded? Are they lying?

I think it's a rare thing for several reasons: First, as your brand of common-knowledge might say, it's "sick" on the part of the woman. Mania DOES go along with sexual overdrive, which isn't to say that all sexual "overdrive" is crazy, but... It may be relatively uncommon for women to engage in such situations with boys.

It's also rare to even encounter a woman of LaFave's obvious beauty -- let's just face it. I was a beauty in my youth too, and it involves a peculiar schism of adaptation. It obviously had some impact on the events at issue here, it's obviously affecting how people are reacting to this case, and I can tell you, it's obviously a part of the mess in that woman's head. It's easy to hate her -- (paraphrasing DU posts, her 'fake orange-tan, bleach-blonde, monster' looks). That's a whole 'nother topic.

"An adult 'sexually abusing' a juvenile." Why did you put "sexually abusing" in quotes?

How do you KNOW all boys suffer emotional damage from "this CRIME?"

[ShortnFiery]

128. Feel free to read the Mental Health Journals ...

Yes, when an ADULT has SEX with a Juvenile, there are emotional scars. You can deny them and claim otherwise, but they exist.

OK you and others are "getting testy" over my absolutes and have a point. I'm sure somewhere, there's no "emotional issues." Yet we're talking about SEX and "with SEX" there's THE VAST MAJORITY OF TIMES stray emotions both the partners have to tackle. Add in an Adult "sexually abusing" a minor, then you can multiply that 10-exponetial fold.

So, yes You are correct in a few stray instances, "Never say never." But how about "Almost ALWAYS." Better?

If you doubt me then please, feel free to read the transcripts of teen boy Victims of Adult women. It will make your hair stand on end in some cases. No, very rarely is it this "cute" case of "Hot for Teacher."

The abuse is very real and PLEASE everyone check your website for "local sex offenders."

For all those who don't think boys are AS AFFECTED note the following scenario: There's an Adult woman (32 y.o.) who was caught in the back seat of her car *having consensual sex* with one of our local paper boys (12 y.o.) in the middle of his route. Do you think that, just perhaps, although it was "hot sex" that this BOY was ... maybe, the least bit victimized? :grr:

Please, and I mean no disrespect - go to the sex offender web sites and read some of the CRIMES perpetrated by ADULT WOMEN - Then come back and tell me that YOU KNOW that "hot teacher sex" between teen boys and beautiful teachers is a "victim-less crime."

Have you all at least CONSIDERED the "emotional zap" this does to the other students in the Perpetrator's Class Room. Yeah, some of them may need counseling also. Why? Her behavior was not only criminal and immoral but it breeched the trust between her and the rest of the students in her class. :thumbsdown:

Finally, has anyone considered that this highly intelligent "Manic-Depressive" perpetrator may have planned this as HER OWN SCHEME all along to score big bucks on a book and perhaps a movie deal? How do you think that 14 year old boy will FEEL when she gets filthy rich off of seducing him? I don't think he will walk away from this situation, with all the surrounding publicity, without profound emotional scars. Of course I could be wrong - but I'm not. ;)

[Sparkly]

129. That was a very emotional post.

But not necessarily a factual one.

First, the cases you can "read" about here, there, or elsewhere are those in which the sex was recorded (for whatever reason). Surely, we all know that plenty of sexual activities occur that are NOT found out, reported, recorded, etc. So this is NOT a representative sample.

Second, we know that the process of encountering, arresting, interrogating, recording, etc. sex acts DOES affect what people say about them. Just a fact.

Third, let me just sum up a whole lot of points in simple terms, to be brief... You and I are adult women, right? So where do WE get information about the "CRIMES of ADULT WOMEN" and the HORRORS of sex for adolescent boys no matter WHAT? (Would it be okay if a 16-year-old girl gave the 14-yr-old a BJ? How about 18? How about 20? Where's this age-line where it's automatically abusive? Let's be real!)

As for your last paragraph, that's way beyond reasonable argument. First, you put "Manic-Depressive" in quotes. WHY???

Second, as for it being a "scheme" to make money on a book deal -- PULEEEZE. She can not profit on this, by law. If she wanted money, she had plenty of ways -- PLENTY of ways -- to get it. And as for publicity -- yes, that may cause the boy "scars." I'm trying to separate the scars of the uproar from the "scars" of his sexual experiences with this woman.

[ShortnFiery]

132. Oh Stop! You know that my post makes sense and with a little research

YOU TOO can know the Scientific findings of the lion's share of "Sexual Abuse" studies.

I'll tell you why I'm a little compassionate: Because based on a survey of DU men, you seem to be drawing conclusions that are NOT scientifically sound.

No, you don't need to have a Masters in Physiological Psychology such as myself or have completed Seminars on Adult Behavior Disorders to include "Abnormal Sexual Behaviors."

You just have to have a basic respect for "The Mental Health Community."

Ask someone you can trust within it and you will discover that BOYS are also emotionally traumatized when Women take advantage of them sexually ... even when it's a "hot teacher."

On Edit: I put Manic-Depressive in quotes because often the folks who suffer from this disorder are not only intelligent but manipulative. It's a trait - oh please don't go there - not always, but usually. :-)

[BlooInBloo]

137. lotsa luck, sparkly.

EDIT: Bets on how it would be received for a man to say with utter certainty how all women feel about some-topic-or-other?

lol!

[ShortnFiery]

139. Didn't you note that I corrected myself Bloo?

I'm saying that you can NOT dismiss the fact that there are "the vast majority of the time" (how's that?) emotional scars.

I'm not trying to be overly brusque and imply that you and Sparky are all wrong - YES! There are degrees of emotional trauma, I'm also asking the two of you to consult some Mental Health Professionals who work in this area? They will tell you that, despite the "locker room" talk, that boys are also traumatized by sexual abuse. And in AMERICA, an Adult having sex with a minor is sexual abuse. On that, you can not dispute, i.e., the RAPE laws.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

160. "In every case"? Not a chance,....

I personally know two men who'd had their first sexual experience with older woman. One was a co-worker who's been 16 when he had sex with his "babysitter" of 24, the other an ex-boyfriend who'd had sex as a 13 year old with his teacher who was in her late 20s. Neither of these men had felt victimized or abused, neither of them had one moment of regret for their encounters, and both of these men had looked at their experience as an incredibly positive one. They also both grew up to have successful marriages and have children.

The older woman initiating the younger -- even underage -- boy into sex is a very long, established happening. How each culture deals with it varies. Is it morally right, morally wrong? After hearing about experiences like the ones I mentioned, I really don't know what to think about it.

[madmusic]

107. A "bigger" issue?

Jessor and colleagues have included adolescent sexual behavior in a "syndrome" of problem behaviors and have shown that it is positively associated with cigarette, alcohol, and drug use and deviance, and negatively correlated with conforming behaviors. Miller and Simon found that adolescent sexuality is related to drug use, delinquency, and low school aspiration and low religiosity.

http://darwin.nap.edu/nap-cgi/skimit.cgi?recid=946&chap=36-55

Why do I think of Bush's http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Freedom_Commission_on_Mental_Health">New Freedom Initiative? Mm, when Bush says "freedom," run!

[Sparkly]

116. Without clicking on your link yet,

studies of "syndromes" often involve behaviors that are associated, without cause/effect. So maybe alcohol caused them all. Maybe mania caused the alcohol, and the rest. Maybe issues around control and autonomy and role-trying and whatever else in adolescence led to one, which led to others....

Chicken/egg...

But yeah... Bush and Freedom = Oil and Water.

[The Straight Story]

110. The ADULT in this case failed restraining herself, and took advantage

of someone in a situation she was able to control.

She used her power poorly in this situation. She knew she was breaking the law but was unable to control herself from doing so.

It's not about gender, it's about having people being able to do the right thing.

She used him for her own desires, she was the adult, she knew it was wrong, and there is not much else to the story.

[Sparkly]

119. I wasn't so much thinking of her....

I was thinking of the varying impact on male/female students.

I think this makes a great case example, as do all extremes -- here, because of her beauty and the boy's apparent willingness.

That said, without knowing more than what's been reported, it's my guess she is indeed manic-depressive AND has some issues around her early adolescence and losing her sister AND has some screwed-up perspectives about sex whether or not she was raped AND, frankly, isn't the brightest bulb on the tree as far as figuring it all out. (Just my guess from what I've seen.)

I don't know that she even THOUGHT about breaking the law. I think she may actually have been focused on being an adolescent "peer" to these boys, pleasing one like a "crush," acting out in manic ways, and NOT necessarily having it be about her sexual pleasure at ALL. It's not always that simple.

[mmonk]

117. The laws are designed to protect the minors.

There should be NO double standards based on someone's opinion that women should be less guilty based on their gender. I don't see how someone can be a feminist and then say the punishment should be less for women because of the biological mechanics of sexual appendage or women's general position in society. The position of teacher and being an adult is a position of power in relation to a minor. In other words, it ain't about you, it's about our young people.

[Sparkly]

124. "it ain't about you, it's about our young people."

That's why I'm probing this from the impact on "our young people."

And I think the impact is different for girls vs. boys -- physically and culturally, and in every way that results from those.

The easy jump is to claim I'm calling for "LESS" punishment for one 'category.'

Please read a little deeper.

[ShortnFiery]

131. Based on what? The men of DU?

Please feel free to do some Google searches. The "men of DU" are every bit as manly and informed as any Message Board, yet I regret, a scientific sampling they do not make. ;)

The IMPACT of the 'abuse' may behaviorally manifest itself differently but the emotional trauma is just "as real" for boys as well as girls.

[rosesaylavee]

121. IMO, this is child abuse

whether the child is male or female. The adult is an authority figure, the child, whether or not she/he is pleasured by the sexual contact, is not emotionally ready for this experience.

It's abuse and should be treated the same no matter who is doing the abusing.

[helderheid]

127. Error: you can only recommend threads which were started in the past 24 ho

Error: you can only recommend threads which were started in the past 24 hours

[The Traveler]

133. No flame

Speaking from very personal experience, having had a six month affair with a teacher (cute little redhead) during my senior year of high school. She was about five years older than I. She was brilliant and beautiful and she loved my wildness. I was a straight A student and adrenalin junky, a nerd with lightening reflexes and a very fast car and an absolute fetish for heights and rocks and mountains, and she knew how to calm the beast inside me before anyone else.

I agree with everything you say. It is a very different experience for a boy to have relations with a woman, methinks.

As near as I can determine, this relationship did me no harm. I tended throughout my twenties to prefer the company of older women, because they had something to offer me. By their company I learned much about sex, art, poetry, ballet, and the value of simple joys. Without them I would have been a simple adrenalin junky.

Ya know, looking back on it, that relationship did me no harm. She, and those I knew later, helped me learn to be a thinking man.

It is difficult if not impossible to codify the difference in law, because the difference has much to do with the attitude brought to the relationship by the older person. And while I have no doubt about the attraction my young, tightly wired body had for these older women, nor any doubts about the intended short term nature of relationships they sought, I also know they wanted to leave me with more than a memory of good sex. And they did.

I guess all I am trying to say is, I was not damaged. I benefited. And today, as a man of 50, I can say she created for me some of warmest and most tender memories of a life rich in that which is warm and tender.

If that disturbs you, that is not my problem.

[ShortnFiery]

135. I only have a few questions -

Do you think that it was moral?

Would your parents have been proud?

Would the other students in YOUR class with this teacher felt like it was "no biggie?"

Would you think it "cool" to have your son and/or daughter do the same?

If you think that you're a better man for it, that's fine by me but don't concur with the conclusion.

But hey, this is America!

I'm only glad you won't be dating my daughter. :hi:

[The Traveler]

138. Here are some answers

Moral? Hell, I dunno. Ambiguous at best.

My parents would have been disapproving. It would not have been a first. On the other hand, I was taught by them not to be overly concerned about the reactions of others.

The other students did not know. I did not tell anyone about it for 20 years or so. It was a private matter.

Would it be cool for son or daughter? Again, it depends upon the situation and people involved. We want to be able to apply rigid standards to things, but real people are more complex than that. Sorry if that bothers you.

Nor am I concerned about your judgments. You do not know me, or nothing of my life except the brief snippet I have chosen to share with you. From my viewpoint, your reaction is, well, reactionary and shallow.

DU amuses me that way. There are so many fine, well intentioned people here who are so rigid in their viewpoints. Ossify as you will.

[ShortnFiery]

140. I accept you answers as genuine ...

I guess that many of us tend to wish that our children's first experience of intimacy (SEX!) is with "an equal" and someone that they care very deeply about. Yes, I would want their first lover to be "a total peer" - if they are both adults (not likely but I can dream, can't I?) I would not mind if their lover was significantly older.

No, I don't understand your views at all. If your cute little red-headed teacher were in our local high school, I would hope that she would be discovered and not ever allowed to work with juveniles again. Who knows how many High School boys "your first lover" may have seduced, AND perhaps as young as 14 y.o.? :(

Perhaps, I feel more strongly because I have Junior High aged children - I don't want them sexually abused even if the teacher happens to be "hot."

[mrreowwr_kittty]

136. Research shows that boys are harmed by it

And I also don't think that anyone who is in a position of authority should abuse it for personal gratification. Ever. That creates a dangerous, slippery slope of rationalization. That's why the law should view them equally, IMO.

[bleedingheart]

142. I think you can't dicuss this kind of stuff without looking at cultural

influence.

Personally I think that any adult having sex with a child is wrong.

However, what makes people think differently about it is our cultural influence.

In our culture, the idea of a young boy being initiated by an older woman is a "fantasy" come true situation. It is generally not acceptable, but look at songs like "hot for teacher" or movies where young men are sometimes taken to prostitutes to "break them in".

However the rules towards girls is generally a bit fuzzy. The general populace agrees that a young girl having sex with an adult male is against the law...UNLESS ...the girl belongs to a society group where it is acceptable. Look at the polygamist sects and the other wacko religious groups...they condone and promote marriage to young girls.

Then you have to look at other cultures. In places like Saudi Arabia, Egypt...men are routinely married to girls...very young girls.

[ShortnFiery]

143. Well in AmeriKKKa it's still illegal for a Woman teacher to break the

law and have sex with a student under the age of 18 y.o.

If I hear of ANY young boys being seduced by a TEACHER, it may be "the boys dream come true" (albeit there is sound evidence that even boy's who's dream comes true with a HOT teacher suffer trauma), it will be her worst nightmare, as she will NOT EVER be around juveniles.

What many people who hold onto the "healthy to be hot for teacher myth" fail to realize is that it not only potentially harms "the emotional soundness" of the Victim, but also HURTS THE ENTIRE SCHOOL.

Believe it or not, there are women teachers who are as sexy AND may also suffer from manic depression. They do NOT breech morality nor BREAK THE LAW. They would not even consider taking advantage of a teenage boy and do not consider it "cool" in any way. These honorable but "hot" teachers are going to have to be very cautious because immoral women who perpetrate sexual abuse of teenage boys has unfairly made them A TARGET for scrutiny.

There's nothing cute about behaving in an immoral and illegal manner. It's further a crime that not only has a risk to cause the victim emotional damage, but also harms the entire community. :grr:

There's nothing to be proud of your, one each, sexual abusing Woman Teacher - IF you take the time to talk with The School's Administrative Staff and The Children who's trust was breeched by abusing one of their fellow students.

Brag all you will but it is illegal. I feel pity for those men who still believe that they were UNIQUE or somehow, "special" when their "hot adult woman" came on to them. The odds are that nothing could be further from the truth. It's highly likely that you are one of many and certainly not the last. Such "sexually deviant" (remember it's ILLEGAL) behavior is often more than not "an obsession and an compulsion."

Check the literature and find that The Adult Woman's complement to the teen boy, "You are so much more mature than the others" is a Classic "come on" line for sexual predators. :(

Most ADULTS who freely choose - to have SEX with a MINOR, hardly ever, stop with one. It's a perversion - and it is often NOT curable but only treated by keeping "the perpetrators" away from juveniles.

Please feel free to show me within any Mental Health resource, where I'm in error, and I'll admit my mis-representation?

[bleedingheart]

168. who are directing your rage towards?

didn't you read my post?

I stated I think it is wrong.

However I also stated that I think that part of what makes people find it acceptable is culturally based.

[Boomer]

176. What exactly is a "child"?

People are throwing this term around as if it's a given, but in truth the definition of child varies widely from era to era and society to society.

The implications of having sex with a 5-year-old are very different from having sex with a 15-year-old. Both are "children" and having sex with both is illegal, but there is a world of difference in the psychology of the adult and the child in one scenarior versus the other.

Within my lifetime, a 13 or 14-year-old girl could be legally married to an adult man, at least in some states in this country. There was no perception of child molestation, although there might have been a little tongue-clucking at marrying a girl off that soon.

Go back a century or two and no one would even blink at the idea.

The line we've drawn at 18 years is arbitrary, and adults and teens will continue to cross it because puberty can start at 12 or 13 years of age. And that gap of 5 or so years leaves room for a heck of lot of messing' around.

[bleedingheart]

177. that is a good question

I really don't know the answers but I think that these types of issues need to be discussed.

I had an great aunt who was married and pregnant at 13...personally I think based on the family stories about her that she had a lot of emotional problems related to that.

[Boomer]

178. Not that uncommon in some areas

As any good country western fan knows, Loretta Lynn was born in Butcher Hollow, KY, back in the 1930s. She married Oliver "Mooney" Lynn when she was 13 years old. Her husband's age is rarely mentioned in those bio stats, but if I remember correctly he was at least in his mid 20's when he asked her to marry him. The wide-spread omission of his age is probably a sign of how much times have changed since back then.

[aikoaiko]

144. There's the crime, and then there the damage.

You can steal the contents of a person's wallet (say $500) and that is a crime punishable by x number of years. The victim of the crime may have had a half months salary in the wallet for the rent or it might have been a rich person's wallet who's five hundred was his lunch money. The parties are injured differently, but the crime is relatively the same and generally punished the same.

Yes, its true that statutory rape when the minor is informed and consents (although not legally able to consent) sometimes injures more or less or even not at all except in the most abstract sense, but we must enforce this rule because of the cases where injury is severe. We generally agree as a society that adults should not be having sex with children. Where and how we draw that line is up for debate.

Still, if I would have tried to emulate a screen door in a hurricane if I were 14 and had the opportunity.

[ShortnFiery]

146. But what you, with sincere respect, FAIL to realize having

not viewed hours of testimonials of young teenage boys and girls who were sexually abused is that, although you think that it is YOU who is in control - in fact, it is the older woman who is using you for her obsession (sex with minors). Often, boys move on and THINK that they are not affected, but they are harmed.

I don't mean to get mushy, but think about what is MOST IMPORTANT in your first experience of intimacy - it's caring deeply for someone and demonstrating that love, not only through sex but through social engagements and time spent together.

Maybe DU men are more resilient but even a Woman who "is hot" does not truly respect your feelings if she is going to have SEX with you when you are ... oh, let's get to ages where most would agree "sexual abuse", say 12-14. I have submitted that there's emotional damage for any minor but I'm willing to admit that the trauma probably is less-intense, well, that is if she's not just "using you for a few months" and then breaks your heart. :shrug:

There's no easy remedies or total consensus - I'll give you that. However, more than not, an adult having sex with a young teen is truly a predatory relationship even if "the teen boy" doesn't view it that way.

My bottom line is: Please understand that we should respect our youth, both boys and girls. Teachers have great authority and responsibility. Set aside the neighborhood Mrs. "underage" Robinson's, it messes up the whole community when Any Teacher sleeps with any student under the age of 18.

If for no other reason, I'd hope that most people at DU can empathize with The Administration and the Attractive Young Women who can control their hormonal urges. Please think of them when you consider that it's ok to be a 14 y.o. boy who's hot with teacher?

[aikoaiko]

163. We have the same bottom line.

Bottom line: We need to enfore these laws fully.

The clinical data are very clear that there is a wide range of emotional and psychological reactions from permanently psychologically damaged to practically unharmed. Do you remember that Dr Laura fiasco when she all but called the APA pedophiles for publishing research that discusses the wide range of emotional reactions. Regardless of the degree of harm, these laws are useful and should be enforced.

[Name removed]

145. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ShortnFiery]

147. thank-you

I know nothing about you here, but by your post, I want to with experience that is heartfelt, want to thank your for posting this ... nothing more than a genuine "thank-you." :hi:

[ShortnFiery]

155. This is a Paraphrase the BASIC "appropriate parts" - politely ...

The poster said that it is not true that "All men are sex fiends - even as young teens."

He did not appreciate the "locker room" endorsement of rape.

In essence, the men (and some women) will cheer you to claim that it is not as damaging for young teens to have sex with an older woman, however, SCIENTIFIC INQUIRY does not support the locker-room banter. IMO it should remain in the locker-room.

It's sexual abuse (rape) and it's against the law.

I hold great empathy for all victims of sexual abuse, whether they choose to "acknowledge it" or not. If you have been abused as a minor, the vast majority of the time, SOMETHING will come back to in an "emotionally negative way." Don't blame me, blame the wealth of sexual abuse research studies. :-)

[Sparkly]

157. ...sigh....

Once again!

Nobody is claiming absence of "damage."

Nodoby's endorsing rape.

Nobody's expressing lack of empathy for victims of sexual abuse.

Nobody's dismissing research studies.

[ShortnFiery]

159. I really think you should talk with people who work with Victims and

Perpetrators of Sexual Abuse.

The reason I have "hung in there, almost alone" is that I'll be damned if this little "cultural discussion" condones RAPE in any way, shape or form.

You of all people being a fellow feminist should understand, that despite what they do in "Saudi Arabia" OUR BOY'S sexual innocence should not be violated by women predators.

Time will tell but this woman is SMART and legally as CRAZY as a fox. Do you not remember that she was put on probation but just couldn't stop herself from sending a porno-video?!?

Really, this Gal knows she's hot and knows how, not only to USE an innocent 14 y.o. boy, but also how to use the legal system and the media. It's tragic because, as a part time Substitute Teacher, I do interact with young women every bit as attractive as this woman. They would not act as such, whether "compulsively" a truly obsessed predator, or, in addition to her concomitant craving for fame and money. Most young women teachers, even the Manic Depressive kind would not wish to choose FAME over the SHAME she brings her community and school. :(

BTW, Manic Depression is not all that rare and Dx are increasing for Women. Further, although it is associated, Hyper-sexuality and Manic-Depression don't correlate 100%. Most people who suffer from Hyper-sexuality in addition to the disorder of Manic Depression, can even, during "the highs" have enough MORAL and MATURE foundation ---> NOT to target Minors for sex.

As you may have noted "the genuine intensity" of the man who's post was deleted? IMO and "very personally" HIS, you are encouraging dissemination of misinformation that may encourage the cover-up of "RAPE."

I've given it my best to explain the intense emotional pain, Adult Women Predators (that includes this teacher) leave to their innocent and emotionally immature young teen boy victims. But you seemingly still want "a cultural coffee table" discussion heaped full of erroneous conclusions.

I can't stop you but I will close with saying that most professionals in the Sexual Abuse Counseling Field would find this thread's theme, as equally deplorable as I do. :shrug:

[The Stranger]

158. Seeking unequal treatment under law is inherently unequal.

Feminists have been fighting for decades to be treated equally, and this attempt to have the law apply differently based on the perpetrator's gender is catastrophically misguided.

[madmusic]

171. Should the punishment fit the crime?

Sentencing someone to 15 years when not that much damage was done because it could be done by someone else might also be catastrophically misguided.

So should we administer equal punishment for unequal crimes just so we can say it's equal?

[Spinoza]

166. I lost my own virginity

on my 15th birthday (literally) with my 34 year old (married) Geometry teacher. It was a beautiful experience which I will always treasure in memory. The woman is now deceased but thank you Mrs......for a wonderful first experience of physical love. The idea that Mrs...... should have gone to jail for her actions is obscene and immoral.

[Phx_Dem]

167. Just because it worked out OK for you

does not mean it's OK for everyone.