Torture. Torture torture torture torture. Torture. Use the word often,

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

when discussing shrub's current "initiative".

If some righty has the balls to bring this up to you and actually defend the shrub's position, ask them "Are you seriously advocating the right, nay, the NEED for our government to commit a moral outrage like torture?"

The "debate" needs to START from this point, let the assholes hem and haw and try to explain how simulated drownings and hypothermia are NOT torture. Not to mention God only knows what else has been happening under the auspices of the U.S. government.

[magellan]

1. TORTURE

What's dimson calling it? Detainee What-What? DTP? DIP?

DOA with any luck. Stop "THE PROGRAM"!! It's TORTURE TORTURE TORTURE TORTURE TORTURE TORTURE TORTURE TORTURE TORTURE TORTURE TORTURE TORTURE TORTURE TORTURE TORTURE TORTURE TORTURE TORTURE TORTURE TORTURE TORTURE TORTURE TORTURE TORTURE TORTURE TORTURE TORTURE TORTURE TORTURE TORTURE TORTURE TORTURE TORTURE TORTURE TORTURE TORTURE TORTURE TORTURE TORTURE

And let's not forget that he only wants this legislation to avoid being tried for WAR CRIMES!!

WAR CRIMES!! WAR CRIMES!! WAR CRIMES!! WAR CRIMES!! WAR CRIMES!! WAR CRIMES!! WAR CRIMES!! WAR CRIMES!! WAR CRIMES!! WAR CRIMES!! WAR CRIMES!! WAR CRIMES!! WAR CRIMES!! WAR CRIMES!! WAR CRIMES!! WAR CRIMES!! WAR CRIMES!! WAR CRIMES!! WAR CRIMES!! WAR CRIMES!! WAR CRIMES!! WAR CRIMES!! WAR CRIMES!! WAR CRIMES!!

[Felinity]

2. Who would Jesus torture?

Let us not forget that W and his band are devout Christians and they only torture people who Jesus tells them to. Remember when Jesus said, "turn the other cheek, unless your enemy is a Muslim, then drown them like a rat."

:sarcasm:

[magellan]

8. Aw, Jesus wouldn't have said to torture Muslims

...because there were no Muslims around in his time! (Christians either, for that matter.) I wonder if the RWers realize that?

:rofl:

A belated welcome to DU, Felinity! And I'll join you in a chant of Nam Myoho Renge Kyo, too. I used to practice Buddhism. :hi:

[Felinity]

10. Hi there!

Thanks for the welcome. I completely spaced on mohammed being post-Jesus!

As for the "Christians," I tell them Jesus was a Buddhist, literally. He also alerted his followers to keep a look out for the Daishonin. It's nice to find a religion that holds the essence of JC's teachings. I've only been practicing for a year or two.

[magellan]

11. It's a wonderfully positive philosophy

Do no harm, work to make the good you envision real, and learn to hear that peaceful place that dwells inside you. That's what I got from it anyway! :)

I think you're right about Jesus. At the core of every faith are the same lessons. It's the trappings and temptations of our material world that cause most religions to be contorted out of all recognition into silly, meaningless rituals that take precedence over the simple heart of it all.

[EFerrari]

3. TORTURE is an American value according to the pResident. n/t

[postulater]

4. Can anyone design a bumper sticker?

I want one that uses the W in "What Torture?" like the W bumper sticker.

[DesertRat]

5. There are some bumper stickers here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=213&topic_id=1774

[vickitulsa]

6. TORTURE should have no easy synonyms or euphemisms.

Torture is brutal and inhumane and as evil as humans can get. Torture is beneath any halfway civilized people. TORTURE -- it can happen to YOU!

Give the Torturers the right to have their way with us all by also approving endless detention without charges and secret, kangaroo court "trials," and you'll end up eventually just like Hitler did -- with death camps and medically specialized torturers who are worse on their mildest day than the worst of serial killers among us in our society who torture when they do their murders.

Torture should begin the discussion and end it as well. TORTURE is as wrong as wrong can ever be, and people who permit and support torture of ANYONE are asking for it to happen to themselves at some point. Maybe it already IS happening to regular citizens of this country, have they thought of that? We have no way of knowing just WHO is being detained without notice or charges of any kind, with no access to attorneys or their families or the court system or due process in any form.

If the government even bothers, they can simply tell family members and loved ones that a person was killed in an unfortunate "accident" (car crash, train wreck, plane crash or any other sort of believable thing) and burned beyond recognition, then send ashes to the family and close the book. While the actual citizen is kept incommunicado and tortured for years, for a lifetime.

Longterm incarceration even without other horrors IS IN ITSELF TORTURE, especially if it's in total isolation and any degree of sensory deprivation, which is common for torturers to use.

I knew the United States government and military rounded up as many Nazis as they could at the end of WWII so they could EMPLOY them and LEARN from them -- all kinds of things they might want to use. More on that later in another thread.

But to think that our own "democratic, freedom-loving" government may well be putting the meticulous medical and other records of the Nazis to use RIGHT NOW on prisoners it holds, without oversight, without risk of consequences to the Torturers ... that's just downright insane.

Write new laws to PERMIT this sort of behavior? Has the entire government lost its collective MIND!?

Will the citizens of this nation stand for such puredee evil madness? Even support it?

Yessirree, I have a LOT to say to anyone who wants to discuss TORTURE LEGISLATION with me! :D

[papau]

7. hold forever without charge or courts is in both McCain and Bush bill -

and it applies to Americans who Bush might pick up off the street and tell folks "no problem - he is just a terrorist"

his word alone is enough for forever in jail.

it is great to be king.

[RevolutionStartsNow]

9. Agreed. Ran into my favorite liberal buddy the other day...

in a store, and he said, dripping with sarcasm of course, "Hey, did you hear? Torture is okay!"

But on my most cynical days, i believe that many Americans have indeed become convinced that torture is not only okay but necessary.