Is * In Bigger Trouble Than I Thought?

[MrCoffee]

I read this in the Washington Post today.

"The professionals will not step up unless there's clarity in the law," Bush said. "So Congress has got a decision to make: Do you want the program to go forward or not? I strongly recommend that this program go forward in order for us to be able to protect America."

The president's threat to end the interrogation program seemed to make little impression on the Republican dissidents who have balked at his interpretation of the Geneva Conventions. Sens. John McCain (R-Ariz.) and Lindsey O. Graham (R-S.C.), two of four Republicans who voted against Bush's position on Thursday, again rejected his logic after the news conference, and a fifth Republican senator, Olympia J. Snowe (Maine), joined the rebellion against the president.

Is there behind the scenes backlash in the military/intelligence community against the interrogation programs, after SCOTUS ruled in Hamdan? McCain, Graham and Warner are on Senate Armed Services, Snowe is on Senate Intelligence...and the very end of the article has this to say;

"But late yesterday, Maj. Gen. Scott C. Black, the Army's judge advocate general, sent a new letter to McCain and other senators, saying "further redefinition" of the conventions "is unnecessary and could be seen as a weakening of our treaty obligations, rather than a reinforcement of the standards of treatment.'"

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/09/15/AR2006091500483_2.html

This is interesting. What's your take?

[madokie]

1. my take is at his newsie yesterday he was very nervous and really worried

or gave me that impression. * is going to jail before this is all said and done, methinks

[laylah]

2. From your keyboard

to God/dess's eyes!

Jenn

[opihimoimoi]

10. The Groundswell is no where near a Crescendo...

Bush is sleeping well these days...

[MrCoffee]

12. But the way the cracks are showing up in the Senate...

makes me wonder. I think Congress is more interested in November than in playing *'s reindeer games

[MrCoffee]

5. But *why* was he nervous?

I think there may be some serious INTERNAL backlash against the interrogation program after Hamdan came down. IMHO (and really, what the hell do i know), these quotes and the phrasing of the message seem to indicate that the Army and the Administration are at loggerheads here.

[gator_in_Ontario]

36. I said the same thing

to my apolitical Canadian wife...he is shaking in his shoes....

[madokie]

37. he jumped the shark, imo

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=2143427&mesg_id=2143427

here is my post on the subject yesterday

[TomInTib]

3. Maj. Gen. Black wishes to become General Black

Once you get into that rank strata, it is mostly political.

[rosesaylavee]

4. My take

*co is unraveling at the seams - making them doubly dangerous and unpredictable. Yikes.

[QuestionAll...]

23. the other Abu Graib Video - the one Sy Hersh spoke of

quite some time ago -the ACLU is working on it.-screaming sodomized boys at abu graib.
I think that one may be coming out publicly soon - that's why the scurvy beast from the bowels of hell is sweating and hoping to do some re-lawin' before it comes out.

[lyonn]

28. Hmmm, sounds logical QuestionAll - -

Personally I don't want those other tapes made public - have we no shame? Still, when people are tortured that is serious stuff for many of us - no way do we want torture. The repubs rant against abortion yet think torture is fine for the living?

Let's hope the beasts are sweating. They have sinned far too long - hey, I'm an agnostic, but sin is sin. Plain and simple, bush needs to be impeached to save what is left of the honor of this country.

[wtmusic]

44. the shame would be in NOT releasing the tapes

and not holding the administration accountable for their crimes

[pnwmom]

29. Does the ACLU have the video? What do you mean, working on it? n/t

[wtmusic]

41. It's tied up in legal maneuvering nt

[MissWaverly]

32. hold them accountable

that treatment was uncalled for, so that's their spin on brutal treatment of minors,
well, too bad, I don't buy it. Another reason to be proud that I am a member of the
ACLU.

[DoYouEverWonder]

43. Plus the Plame Investigation is still ongoing

and they have ever reason to be nervous about that one too.

[KingFlorez]

6. He can't keep anything in order

He's come to the point where his own party is unafraid to challenge him on this issue. He's fractured the GOP detrimentally and he's afraid that come November he's not going to have a Republican Congress to protect him.

[MrCoffee]

9. What does Senate Armed Services know that * wishes they didn't?

man, now i have to read testimony. whatta drag.

[calimary]

16. You know what some of them know that he wishes they didn't? The

REST of the story of Abu Ghraib, that's what.

There was another thread here last night referencing Seymour Hersh, saying exactly this. There are photos you may remember that came up for discussion quite awhile ago. Only a select few on, I THINK, this committee were allowed to see the rest of the photos of what was done, and the videos. And to hear the "soundtrack." It was of young boys being sodomized, and what I remember of it most vividly was how witnesses said you could hear the screams of the boys. There was video. And I ALSO remember reports describing the expressions on the faces of these select committee members who were allowed to see everything, and how utterly stricken they looked when they left that room. The Pentagon has the rest of it under lock and key.

I'd suspect THAT is what some of them know that bush wishes they didn't. I think the thread was titled something like "Hersh says they're terrified this is going to get out."

Which means it MUST.

[MrCoffee]

17. Thanks, i missed that.

[babylonsister]

20. Here's the thread calimary was referencing:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=2148785

[MrCoffee]

24. many thanks.

[calimary]

45. Bingo! That's exactly it.

Frankly, I hope all of that monstrous horror DOES come out. I hope people get to see what we've gotten for our tax money, what we paid for. And I hope it makes 'em REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAL proud. (Insert heavy sarcasm here.) As gratuitous once said - "let me see what I got for my money."

[WinkyDink]

25. And yet they kept silent. Cowards, all.

[Booster]

35. That's exactly what bothers me - they saw evidence of crimes

being committed and they said nothing. Are they bound by secrecy under Government law, or they abettors in the crime? Whatever, I want to know the names of the people who saw these videos - they need to be run out of public service forever for speaking up.

[MissWaverly]

34. utterly stricken

well, what have they DONE about it, doesn't seem like they have done anything at all, even
the torture ban Bush added a signing statement rending it null and void. What has Pat
Roberts done to curtail abuse?

[MissWaverly]

33. I heard that they are clueless because of National Security

everything is reclassified and our congress don't have the "security clearance" to review
top secret stuff so they never see anything.

[Richard Steele]

7. I think he must be. He suddenly cares about LAWS? WTF?

This is an administration that has ruled by fiat,
done whatever it wanted just by issueing a Presidential Decree...

But now, suddenly, we see a total reversal from their
"a War President can do whatever he wants" bullshit.

SUDDENLY, they need LAWS to justify their actions.
This is NOT a small change.
And they wouldn't be making, it after all these years,
unless they feel they have no choice.

So, yes, I think he's in more trouble than we know yet.

[Warpy]

8. My take is that the Pentagon is against this stuff

Those generals know military history. They know that during WWII, Germans would actively seek out Americans to surrender to because of our strict interpretation of the GC. Because they no longer had a reason to fight to the death, knowing their treatment would be humane, they saved a lot US lives that might have been lost in combat.

Stupid's insistence on returning to a technique that DOES NOT WORK is sticking in the craw of the military brass. They know damned full well that abandoning the GC will cost a lot of soldiers their lives.

This may be how we get this bunch out of office. Deciding not to follow a treaty they consider inconvenient is a violation of the constitution and one of several clearly impeachable offenses.

[MrCoffee]

11. I agree, but for a different reason.

I think the Pentagon (particularly the Army) is against the interrogation practices now that SCOTUS has called them illegal (which is, in itself, remarkable), but for the simple reason that it's all well and good to waterboard some suspected terrorist, but not pfc. smith.

[Richard D]

13. Is * in bigger trouble than you thought???

I hope so. And I hope you think he's in really big trouble.

[MrCoffee]

15. Oh i think he's buried head first in, ahem, trouble ...but that's just me.

My point was that I think the Army is ready to break ranks too. Which would mean he's in an entirely new level of trouble.

[johnnypneumatic]

14. "Do you want the torture to go on or not?

If you're with me, then you need to redefine these 60 year old Geneva conventions that seems to say torture is bad, so that they really mean torture is good. It's that simple. Either you're for the torture or you're for the terrorists."
:sarcasm:

[madokie]

19. by framing it as he has he has painted himself into a corner

not many will condone torture, IMO

[opihimoimoi]

42. In the Future: They will frame Bushies performance as a COLLOSAL BLUNDER

The History Channel gonna love this guy...So Many Blunders ya can't count um all.

[madokie]

46. bush* will be reduced to a four letter word

[Sydnie]

18. I posted this yesterday

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=2146870&mesg_id=2146870

I think he has asked them to cross the line and they have said NO. The comment about not prosecuting them was telling on it's face. He obviously has already made them the promise that he will not prosecute and they are smart enough to know that, eventually, this regime will be gone and there will be answers required and responsibility assigned for the actions that they are taking. The fact that we don't belong to the world court right NOW has not escaped them. They KNOW that international pressure to prosecute, whether that be here in the US or absentee prosecutions in courts all over the world, can not be guaranteed for ever.

Remember, there are CIA agents under indictment in Italy already.

And maybe, just maybe, some have finally reached the line for behaviors that they feel they can morally and personally live with. With the low level grunts that have been charged in Abu Ghirab, without anyone of real authority having to face charges, they know that the lowest man on the totem pole will be the ones to bear the brunt and it could be anyone of them wearing that bullseye at any time.

I think they have said NO and he is feeling a coup developing that he knows he can't control. I fear it won't be too long before we turn on our own in a big way ... meaning, they will silence those that they must and frighten those that are left to "get 'er done" their way.

[MrCoffee]

22. Muchas Gracias...

now i know it's not just me! woo hoo!

[Sydnie]

27. No, it's not just you my friend

His desperation was apparent for all to see yesterday. He has overplayed his hand and the call is in. He will lose this time.

[no_hypocrisy]

26. I also figure in the fact that * is not accustomed to being told "No".

Congress has rubberstamped just about everything he's wanted. And if they passed a law that he didn't like and they had the vetoproof votes, he'd do a signing statement to nullify it.

But here, he can't enact and execute unilaterally a law of his choosing. He actually needs Congress to effectuate it and they aren't budging. Now what? Plan B? Uh uh. Nope. I don't think sooooo. He's staying for less than 18 months and has no ability to threaten any lawmaker.

Yep, "no" tastes bad the first time you have to swallow it.

[Hamlette]

21. I think he drank his own Kool Aide, or is a very good actor

he wins elections by scaring us into thinking the end of the world (not the good kind, rapture) is near because terrorists are evil subhumans who hate us for our freedom (vomit)

Now, he's starting to believe the end of the world is near and the terrorists are big and strong and we are weak and they will get us.

What does it take to believe you could torture someone? Blind hatred. Bush is capable of that (the death penalty govenor) most of us are not. He sees the world as black and white/good and evil.

Remember the blowing up frogs story about Bush as a child? I can't get my head around that one either, can't imagine me doing it or my son as a child.

I went to school with Ted Bundy and thought we should lock him up forever and study his brain and see if we could find out why he was capable of such acts and how to stop others who might do such acts. We should do the same to Bush. I think he is missing a conscience. both of them.

[helderheid]

30. We HAVE to get rid of the evote machines and then he'll be in trouble

[The_Casual_Observer]

31. In essence, he or his people authorized detention & interrogation

practices that are, within a reason reading, in violation of the Geneva conventions. I don't think that
unilaterally changing the rules to suit what they did is going to help him.

[saltpoint]

38. I've mostly felt Bush was more shrewd than intelligent, and that the

Rovian hacks he has always hung out with generally steer him toward the up side of divisive issues, the win side I mean, not the ethical side.

And in an election year especially, I don't know why they'd risk their boy's standing and the relative ease of 2 more uncontested years with this Torture issue, so I'm guessing they're all ashiver with the specter of possible criminal liability.

Bush's presser yesterday was a stammering, incoherent mess. Pretty much like his presidency.

[Berry Cool]

39. You know what's really interesting?

The words "dissent" and "Republicans" appearing more and more in the same sentence.

I thought it was just the Dems who were fractured and dissenting and couldn't agree on anything and hence couldn't get their platform nailed together or successfully elect their candidates because herding all the cats was just too impossible. And Repubs were taking over because they understood the importance of lining up behind one guy and one platform and backing him as a united front.

Not so true anymore, I think.

[saltpoint]

40. Yes. They're a contentious bunch with each other these days.

And that's good.

The more they kowtow to the Far Right the more they alienate moderate voters and independents. And hell, we'll be happy to take those moderate and independent voters away from them.

As Dobson and that bunch rise in influence and prominence, the GOP will split even more. I'm thinking if they nominate McCain, there's a pretty good chance of a third-party moralist run by Brownback. That's all it would take to boost Democratic numbers in the House and Senate and give us the White House.