Senate Democrats are making a HUGE strategic mistake

[DianeG5385]

They are letting Senate republicans LEAD the opposition to Bush's torture legalization plan and remaining silent. This makes them look extremely weak in my view as they are not showing any leadership in an issue critical to our country. Hey! I support the dems strongly and want a majority in congress but I feel frustrated, Dems seem so passive, this is not going to win votes. I'm wondering where their voice in this is.

My point is that this gives wavering republicans an opportunity to stay with their guy and weaken the potential for Dems to win the close races. It gives the Repubs an alternate leg to stand on. Up to now they have been a monolith behind Bush. This smells like a campaign tactic to me and I fear the Dems are not taking any advantage at all.

Dems need to loudly take a stand opposing Bush and do it before it's too late!

[nadinbrzezinski]

1. Question, if a tree falls in the forest

does it make any noise?

If a democrat makes a lot of noise and the press does not show up, did he?

We are truly living in such a country right now.

[blm]

2. They seem passive because that's what media wants people to believe.

Many have been speaking out in speeches, in the senate and in congress, and at campaign appearances - all of which get little to no coverage by national newsmedia.

[DianeG5385]

7. I realize they have been making speeches

and that they are being ignored by the mainstream press. But these are treacherous times for the future of our country and they need to call attention to themselves by making more noise. We need more Dean on the airwaves more Clark on TV being loud. This is how the repubs brought attention to themselves in 94. They were unconventional and innovative which made the media curious. I don't see a concerted effort to gain media focus. I believe it can be done.

[blm]

10. This is not 1994 - there are no more traces of an honest news media. Since

1996 the RW has accomplished its goal of establishing a CORPORATE newsmedia who answers to the bottom line, and NOT to the American people.

You need to check out FAIR and MediaMatters. The imbalances in the media numbers will SHOCK you into reality.

[DianeG5385]

18. I am totally aware of the imbalance! We see it every day.

We see it in most news reports. We see it in Bush's bullying press conferences. THAT gets attention. We don't need to be arrogant bullies but we have to bring attention to our plan, our vision and being polite and passive won't do it. My fear is our leadership is afraid of the repubs/media so we may be compromised

[w13rd0]

22. Go to crooksandliars or youtube..

...or any other video archival site, you'll see PLENTY of clips of Dems speaking out. What you should be asking is why the media gives their statements NO air time. Why do they act as if it's just Warner and McCain and Powell saying anything? Why don't they also show what OUR people say, and note the "bipartisan agreement" over the illegality of Bush's agenda?

The corporate media is not our ally. They will not behave as an ally, they will not behave in a responsible fashion. There are a few "shining stars" out there, but when they speak out, how many listen? How many are dismissed as being "obvious partisans" for stating the obvious, and echoing a bipartisan position that differs from Le Fuerher?

I'm really tired of so-called Democrats and progressives bitching and whining about how they never hear Democrats speaking out, or saying that the Democrats don't have a plan. Bullshit, you just aren't listening. And once you hear, what do YOU do about making sure others hear it too?

[blm]

24. This is the best reply I've seen on this issue.

I wish I could convey the point half as well as you have here.

It deserves its own thread, imo.

[DianeG5385]

27. I want to win in November and I'm looking at ALL options

and obstacles to that happening and LAYING it out for consideration. I'm not a "so-called" Democrat whining "oh, woe is me.." I'm a REAL Democrat I'm SAYING PAY attention consider multiple strategies, know that this repub infighting is MORE than that it's a campaign strategy and stop bitching about being ignored by the media!!!

Someone in leadership, I hope, is considering making some noise and as another poster said pointing out how the repubs vote in lock-step 90% plus of the time.

[napi21]

3. I don't know if that's right. all the MSM has said the Dems will

be united against this, and I think it's doing more damage tobroadcast how divided the Pubs are over this issue. I think most of the Dems have already made their position known, or it would NEVER be in the MSM, and now they're just letting their enemy destroy themselves!

[cornermouse]

20. I have a problem with settling for letting the repubs division

be aired while the dems stand by silently.

I am concerned it underlines that the repubs are the ones doing whatever fighting back that is being done and for some (not me so don't yell at me) it confirms that the repubs have the strength and will to stand up and fight while the dems sort of lie dormant.

I really don't think this is good for us.

[DianeG5385]

28. My point, exactly n/t

.

[sandnsea]

21. The Bushies can't spin this

into a purely partisan obstructionist tactic. Letting Republicans take the lead makes it clear that this issue is beyond politics, the way issues of national defense are always supposed to be. It's funny to me that people who are always so angry or cynical about our leaders putting politics over "what's right" are turning around and getting angry at Democrats for not playing politics.

[DianeG5385]

29. It's making NOISE when you stand up for what's right

We're good at standing for right but we're not good at having the will to take credit for it. We were here WAY before the repubs but it may not look that way to the voters. I'm talking perception, not reality.

[BeFree]

38. Perception is reality

You perceive that the dems are not speaking out because the reality is that the M$M doesn't broadcast it.

The real reality is that the dems have been solidly against the whole torture thing, and will continue to be.

What can be done in the campaign field is more your question, right?

Well, if a puke voted for torture then that does need to be expressed in the campaign ads, eh? I'd like to see that, indeed, I would.

[MADem]

4. Not at all. Why waste the energy yelling ME TOO?

This is a fight between the Monkey and HIS SENATE SERVANTS who are DISOBEYING him.

Of COURSE the Democrats don't go for torture. It's the GOP saying "We aren't taking your shit, Monkey" that's news.

You lead, you follow, or you get out of the way. Now's a great time to get out of the way. If we need to jump in, we can, but not now.

If we start trying to steal their thunder, they may just give up the fight so as to not appear to be too chummy with the Democrats. Let them do what they need to do.

[DianeG5385]

8. Better a loud me too than agreement from the sidelines

I would that and to appear to be LEADERS (even me too ers can be perceived as strong) because right now the fight on the right casts no glow on the dems and no favor is won from the public with this stay silent strategy. It could become a choice as I stated before between which wing of the republican party to support.

[havocmom]

12. I agree with you

The GOP on the Hill will benefit in Nov from their 'revolt' now. bush will be the scape goat and lots of voters will take that easy explaination.

The DEMS need to hammer long, hard and LOUD on the actual VOTING RECORD of the GOP on the Hill. Show voters how their lock-step with the administration for 5 years damaged the nation. Remind the voters of just how recent this 'revolt' is and how little it actually means to shut the barn door after all the horses have been stolen.

The GOP can't run on their record. They HAVE TO CREATE diversions. This is just the latest wedge issue. The people are showing open hostility to bushco and the GOP on the Hill think they can surf that wave of public anger to re-election.

DEMS ignore it at their peril They can snatch defeat from the jaws of victory yet if they do not aggressively question why the GOP took so long to question bush after so many lock step votes to empower him for five fucking years.

[DianeG5385]

13. Yup, me too!

You've articulated clearly the point I was trying to make. I hope someone is paying attention!

[MADem]

19. They don't NEED to lead on this issue

A dog barking is not news. A dog meowing IS news. The GOP are meowing dogs on this issue right now. GOP gripes make the Monkey look WEAK, like he can't control his own children.

The Democrats should talk about getting out of Iraq, health care and Social Security. Everyone already KNOWS how we feel about torture, and if they don't, they're fucking stupid, frankly and would likely get lost on the way to the polls, if they bothered to vote at all.

[MrCoffee]

5. I tend to disagree with your assessment

My opinion is that they're more than happy to let repubs appear fractured. Let them eat their own.

That and a buck will get you a dollar richer.

[Monkeyman]

9. yep

[grytpype]

6. Oh, BS.

Bush and Rove were hoping to make the Dems look weak on defense, and it's blowing up in their faces because Bush is attacking his own party now.

You just don't know a good situation when you see one.

[DianeG5385]

11. Ask a republican how they feel about the rift

I'll venture to guess that most repubs are against Bush's Iraq/terror policy. Their choice right now is to hold their nose and vote repub or stay home. If their guy is opposing (or appearing to oppose) Bush, he may be more inclined to vote than to stay home. I strongly believe that the repubs are not"eating their own". They just don't do that.

We are not giving these guys a look at the dem point of view as being a position of strength with this strategy so I think this will hamper (not totally foreclose) our potential to take back congress. Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm trying to look at all potential pitfalls to taking back congress and hoping someone in leadership is thinking about this.

[lonestarnot]

15. This coupled with the fact that dems are just being ignored.

[grytpype]

32. Well for once I'm glad the Dems are being ignored.

Dems have nothing to gain by opposing torture and giving the Repug scum another chance to smear them as weak on defense.

Like that boner Boehner was saying, "Dems want to protect terrorists more than they want to protect Americans." That line came straight from Karl Rove.

And now? Bush has to attack his own party. The Dems are out of the picture. So Rove's little scheme didn't work.

As far as the election goes, I'm more concerned that falling gas prices are taking the heat off the Repugs. That's why they are doing better in the polls right now.

[lonestarnot]

14. Bullshit! Dems are being ignored by the 6 owners of the MSM.

[gully]

16. We've opposed this from the beginning. However, I see your point.

I think the media is aghast that the Republicans are finally saying "no." They want to promote the idea of oversight, in spite of the fact that they've had none.

[sandnsea]

17. Bush is clearly exposed

The Bushies can't turn this into a partisan brawl so they are having to make their case with facts, and are failing horribly. The people are getting to see this Administration literally with no clothes. Geneva Conventions and torture are too important to politicize so the Democrats are taking the right approach in letting Republicans lead. Reid has already said that Democrats will not let the legislation Bush wants go forward, so they've made their position clear. Letting the Republicans hash this out is the right thing to do, it's just sad that more people don't know that Democrats are putting the country over politics.

[MADem]

23. The Bushies can't turn this into a partisan brawl --PRECISELY

And that's what they always do. And short on facts, they can't point the finger at us!

Well said.

[DianeG5385]

25. You may be correct from a beltway perspective

But what does the regular guy and gal think? Perception is reality and if our strategy as noted in your post is not clearly articulated, the perception is accurately, that we are letting the repubs fight this out and we LOOK WEAK! Both repub sides may be perceived as strong whether right or wrong. If they believe (whether true or not) that a republican congress can oppose and control Bush they will vote rebulican. THAT's why we have to be noisy and active and aligning ourselves proactively with the rebellious repubs. Quiet guys don't win popularity contests.

[sandnsea]

33. The country sees that Democrats were right

When Republicans start repeating what Democrats have been saying for 5 years, they have to stop and recognize that Dems were right all along. The reason this IS the right Dem strategy is because of the way it plays with mainstream America and because it's right for the country. People don't want everything turned into a bloody partisan battle and this is too important to allow that to happen with. If these Republicans don't get a good bill out of this administration, THEN Democats can turn up the volume and it won't have gotten lost in the fight that's taking place right now.

[Raksha]

42. No, they DON'T have to realize the Dems "were right all along"

unless *WE* tell them so, and tell them so LOUD and OFTEN! The Dems have been demonized so thoroughly in this country that if people have any excuse to forget we were right all along, THEY WILL. Besides, nobody likes hearing "I told you so."

On another forum I frequent there are still Freepers who insist it was the fault of the anti-war movement that we lost the war in Vietnam, because we didn't "support the troops."

[sandnsea]

44. Well we can't do brain transplants

I'm sure there are people who believe FDR really was a communist too. There are things that DUers believe that just causes me fits of agonizing brain spasms. You simply can't change everybody.

But as it pertains to THIS bill, it is being handled correctly because it is too important to allow it to be turned into another partisan brawl. People who DO know that Democrats put the country over partisanship should be out there tooting the Dem horn. But even when that information is set right in their lap with a bow on it - they STILL choose to beat up Dems instead and THAT is the real problem.

BTW, Kerry is in Iowa today and IS reminding people that America recognizes what happened to him and that he was right andthat they will appreciate that in 2008. So maybe you're getting what you wanted - except I'm going to bet it won't matter because it didn't come out of the mouth of a DU approved Dem.

[DianeG5385]

45. Unless, by standing on the sidelines

The Bush crew manages to bully the senate republicans into voting for the house bill in some form of compromise and hails this as a victory, and then we are up the creek. I don't know how tough McCain, Warner and Graham really are.

[sandnsea]

47. Reid has said Bush's plan will not pass

In a phone conference with some bloggers he was adamant that the Dems were not going to let Bush have his way on changing the Geneva Convention or adding classified torture tactics. He issued this statement as well, I think Dems are prepared to fight if it becomes necessary. I also read that Olympia Snowe has joined Warner, McCain and Graham and I know she never folds. I think this is actually working the way our government is supposed to work, for a change.

Reid:

"Five years after Sept. 11, not a single terrorist has been brought to justice under the president's flawed policy. There is a bipartisan process underway in the United States Senate to fix the failed Bush administration system that was struck down by the Supreme Court. Instead of picking fights with Colin Powell, John McCain, and other military experts, President Bush should change course, do what the American people expect, and finally give them the real security they deserve."

[SoCalDem]

26. We know where the repubes stand on everything, because THEY

are the ones handed a microphone.. Look at any "screaminghead" show.. The repubes are always over-represented.. Dems cannot just storm the gates of CBS/CNN/MSRNC/Disney/GE and force their way into the studios..

Confrontational "discussion" is all that's shown these days, and unfortunately the proper "answer" cannot always be summed up in 3 words slogans. Repubes do this all the time, and the media eats it up.. It's easy for them..

The media does not want insightful, serious discussion of real problems.. They want their "guests" to give them "exciting" tv..

:puke:

We've had so many years of neglectful legislation, and things have gotten so bad..I'm almost afraid our problems are beyond solving.:(

[DianeG5385]

30. Dems are way too polite.

They don't make for exciting tv. The message may be good, but if it were good tv it would get more air time.

[Raksha]

43. I agree with you that Dems are too polite, and I'll go even further:

The ONLY way we seem to get any coverage on the corporate media is when some liberal makes an outrageous, high-profile statement, the most recent being Rosie O'Donnell's statement that radical Christians are as much a danger to America as radical Islam. Now THAT got some attention! It also happens to be true, because Islam isn't the majority religion in this country. I don't think such statements cost us votes (although the Repukes are constantly telling us they do), because for every person who is offended there will be two (at least) who agree. Most important, it GETS PEOPLE TALKING about the issue, even if they're offended as hell.

[Turbineguy]

31. Part of my letter to Senator Murray

Titled: Bush and his Get-Out-Of-Jail-Free Card

"The Geneva Convention does not offer punishment, but the US War Crimes Act of 1996 does. Obviously, the US Congress cannot rewrite the Geneva Convention.

What Bush seems to be asking for is for Congress to alter the 1996 War Crimes Act to let him and those in his administration off the hook for acts already committed that go against the Convention.

To do so would damage the United States’ standing in the world further while shielding those responsible for that decline in the first place.

With the election at hand I expect the Bush Administration is consumed with a sense of urgency in pushing through this legislation. If the GOP should loose control of the Congress Bush would be subject to removal as President. Without this legislation, he would be subject to a further trial and imprisonment. But a shift away from a Republican controlled Congress may not occur. My understanding is that all Democratic Candidates will be subject to “Swiftboating” by a newly funded organization called “The Economic Freedom Fund”.

As you are not up for re-election I think you have some advantages over those who are Candidates.

It is important that this legislation be exposed for what it is in the most graphic and easy to grasp way. As an aside, it would be interesting to know if this legislation would force the reversal of the convictions of those involved in the Abu Graib Prison debacle along with shielding the upper echelon of the Bush Administration from prosecution and punishment."

[Epiphany4z]

34. I think Dems are playing this just fine

as a dem we are against torture. Republicans rule all houses right now if they don't want him torture they have to join us we don't need to join them. I just don't think we need to make that much noise on this one. We stand by our convictions we have always been against torture not just before election day..just a small reminder of that and we sit back watch the repubs bitch slap each other around.

[Warren Stupidity]

35. So what else is new?

Over and over they have refused to take a stand, refused to be the Opposition Party, preferred instead to nuance their position to avoid exposure.

[WyLoochka]

36. The House Dems were so scared shitless

that the Armed Services Committee passed Bush's torture bill to the floor with only 8 Dem NO votes the same day that the Senate Committee voted all Dems and 4 Pukes to thwart Bush's blood thirsty bill. (the committee vote was an astounding 52-8).

I have to leave for awhile this afternoon. I haven't been able to find out who those honorable 8 Dems were so I can send them emails. Would also like to give the chickenshits who voted with the pukles a piece of my mind too.

Does anyone have this info? Who are the Dems who are voting with us in the House on this monstrosity? Which ones are the lily livers?

[cornermouse]

37. Something to think about.

"She told me what she thought of the last two Democratic presidential campaigns. It is both hilarious and unrepeatable. Morley Safer, CBS News, New York" Speaking about Ann Richards after her death.

And if the democratic party doesn't start fighting, she's going to be saying the same thing again, just somewhere else.

I heard him when he said it, but googling "morley safer she told me what she thought of the last two democratic presidential campaigns" was as close as I could get to finding it.

[Leopolds Ghost]

39. Sen. Rockefeller said he would vote against the bill UNLESS

It is demonstrated to be necessary, effective, and legal (???)

Goes on to say how important it is to give the administration
the tools needed to fight terrorism at home and abroad, etc.

On Edit: Which he doesn't expect it to be. :rolleyes:

Now that's classic fiery parliamentary debate skill, right there. Worthy of Daniel Webster and Henry Clay. We need Dems to make those sort of "too clever by half" arguments on TV, if only they would show them...

It's good he opposes it -- at least, for now. But how are the media supposed to interpret that sort of statement, even if we wanted them to air it? I imagine Hillary Clinton, Joe Biden, etc. might have articulated a similar position.

[KharmaTrain]

40. This Is Not In Their Game Plan

Rove was trying to bum's rush these two bills through to CYA for this regime in the event the GOOP loses either House and Democrats gain subpoena power next year. He thought he could use this trunicate session...dress it up in the "national security" blanket and try to use it as a wedge against Democrats, not as a means to fight with other Repugnicans. McCain, Graham & Warner are bottlenecking this game...more that they see this issue as one where their party is on the verge of losing the military and aren't about to let that happen. They may be complicit with the regime in many areas, but messing with the Geneva Conventions is something a former JAG and POW can't support. If they roll, they lose all credibility with the military and their respective power bases. It's getting that provincial in the Repugnican party.

The numbers are starting to come out that this regime's 9/11 blitz has turned into a dud. Enough people are wise to not connect Iraq and 9/11 anymore or if they do, it's in a negative manner. The regime's now backed into holding its own base together and that's fraying. Most Representatives...especially those in endangered districts sure as hell don't want this dog & pony show going on...and it sure looks like there's gonna be some kinda showdown next week in the House. These people want to run on "feel good" things like lower gas prices or the latest piece of pork they brought home or how their opponent is a practicing heterosexual who once was a thespian and even masticated in public. They don't want to run against Iraq. The longer this showdown goes on, the more they DO have to run on this unpopular issue.

It's ironic...seems most of Rove's wedge issues just aren't clicking this time around. I haven't heard much about Gay Marriage...or their new variation, Gay adoption, much lately and even the tax cuts meme looks flat with depressed economy and lowering standards of living.

The Repugnians are doing what the pundits had predicted the Democrats would over "national security". The debate has turned to "should the U.S. government condone torture?"...and best left for the Repugnicans to beat themselves silly over that one.

In the meantime, the eye should stay on the ball with a simple question..."had enough"? There's plenty of things to speak to voters about. Every one I encounter has some type of bitch and its almost always a negative to the GOOP...be it Iraq, health care, education, the rise of the religious right, defecits...it's not hard to find something that this regime and its local toady have screwed up. Let the corporate media play with this tar baby...its far better to see Repugnicans chewing each other up on the cable rather than Democrats.

Right now, GOTV is where the election has boiled down to. Democrats can't get distracted from reaching out locally to voters for some diversion. If a Democratic majority is elected to the House &/or Senate, THEN we can examine what this regime has done to the Geneva Conventions and the illegal wiretapping and put some real clampers on this travesty and embarassment.

Cheers...

[CarlVK]

41. Allowing themselves to be defined is a CHRONIC Dem mistake

and I wish the holy fuck that they'd STOP doing it.

We have to define the issues.

We have to define the arguments.

We have to define ourselves.

We have to put the neothugs on the defensive.


"J'accuse!" is a much more powerful statement than "No I'm not!"

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

46. I agree, Diane. I made the same point in another thread, got the same

kind of responses, but I think that if necessary, the Dems should do MORE and make MORE noise until they can't be ignored. For instance, legislation introduced by a GROUP of top Dems, with a called press conference. Let the Repubs squelch the bill if they will. But introduce it.

Get a group together and call press conference on the subject. Have your most famous members, and potential future candidates, write op-eds to the major dailies. Etc. etc.

I agree that settling for letting the Repub division be highlighted is inadequate. And the perception IS the reality, Dems need to do MORE to boost "perception" if they're not winning that battle.

If people can get publicity for anti video game initiatives, then surely they can for this.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x2147291