Assault on Waco.

[The Backlash Cometh]

It's on the Discovery Channel tomorrow. They claim they'll show both sides. Anybody know how Waco would have been treated under Bush? Was David Koresch one of them? Would the public have responded differently if it was a Black Panther camp?

[John Gauger]

1. the Bush administration would have done the same as the Clinton

Waco was a training exercise. Reno felt that the FBI needed more training. They chose to use human lives in their exercise. Bush is just as heartless.

[The Backlash Cometh]

2. Reno was only in office for about three weeks when it happened.

Not long enough to determine that the FBI needed more training. That sounds like a right-wing point of view. I do remember, however, that the FBI was getting a lot of criticism for being too patient with their vigil, and when Reno stepped in, she was advised to attack.

[Wilber_Stool]

25. This is just off the top of my brain but

I think that Reno was appointed three weeks after started.

[Wilber_Stool]

37. The Att. Gen. at the time was William P. Barr.........n/t

[PSPS]

5. Nice regurgitation of a right-wing talking point

It's the second time I've read this "Reno wanted to use humans as an FBI training exercise" nonsense. That's verbatim from Limbaugh.

Koresch was just another in a long list of cult leaders who took in the gullible, along with their wallets and, of course, their pubescent daughters to have sex with.

I wonder how Discovery will present "both sides" of Koresch sleeping with pre-teen girls who, remarkable, were willingly "given" to him by their deluded parents?

[Poll_Blind]

7. Reno and Clinton had very little to do with this. This was the doing...

...of the Texas BATF, and later (when the situation was hopelessly fuckered) the FBI. The Rethugs wanted to pin all this on Clinton and/or Reno, but it ultimately took place at a much lower level, in my opinion.

PB

[Wcross]

13. "the Texas BTAF"???????

The raid was conducted by Federal agents of the ATF. I do not blame Reno or Clinton for what happened, I blame the bureaucrats of the ATF. They had ample opportunity to make an arrest outside the compound. It was a failure of the career bureaucrats at the ATF.

[The Backlash Cometh]

14. I think I'll tune into Discovery to find out what they have to say about

it. I'll let you all know if it's a docudrama. tee-hee.

[Poll_Blind]

15. Yes, the Texas branch of the BATF. The BATF in Washington, DC had...

..only developed the roughest skeleton of a plan on how to deal with the Koresh raid. But nothing remotely "real" and certainly not an actual signed-off-on-plan. But the Texas BATF wanted to make a nice big bust as they were coming up for funding soon and so they tacked on allegations of drug manufacturing (falsely) to the warrant so they could enlist the use of military helicopters, et al., from the Texas National Guard. They carried out the raid as an independent exercise primarily constructed to give them "Good press". Which is why there were news crews from all over to film the event. They had been called down to the Branch Davidians land prior to the raid so as to cover the event fully and get some "juicy footage".

  And juicy footage they got.

  Hours later, when the agents had to call off the siege (they'd run out of ammunition), they had to retreat. It is important to note that every one of the retreating agents could have been gunned down with rifles the Davidians had if the Davidians had chosen to. The BATF agents expected this to be such a slam dunk there weren't even any ambulances present during the raid and the BATF agents had to ask media to call ambulances in once things went south. This is also interesting because the way they conducted the raid indicated that there would be considerable casualties, at least to the Davidians. I refer you to "Waco: Rules of engagement" which illustrates these points with original source material, actually showing you these things I have indicated and many, many more, disturbing (and telling) bits of information.

PB

[The Night Owl]

27. Utter nonsense

Do you honestly think the news media would not have descended on a standoff in which 4 agents were murdered for attempting to serve warrants? Did the ATF make the Branch Davidians shoot at them? Did the news media make the Branch Davidians shoot at them?

Sorry, but everything you are saying about the Waco incident is based on a right wing smear piece which relies almost totally on the testimony of the Branch Davidians... some of whom served up their children like pieces of meat to David Koresh... some of whom are, to this day, awaiting the ressurection of David Koresh.

[Poll_Blind]

34. All eleven Davidians were ACQUITTED of murder charges in the raid.

  Did you know that? The agents did not attempt to serve a warrant. They assaulted the house. They did not attempt to serve a warrant, they attacked. Because of this a jury found all eleven innocent of conspiracy to murder and murder of Federal agents. They acted in self-defense.

"I have a right to defend myself, they started firing first!"

  Listen to the 911 call yourself. It is just one piece of a mountain of evidence which exculpated the Davidians who defended themselves that day. I don't expect it to change you mind, which appears solidly made up and (apparently) free of the burden of consideration of evidence.

Do you honestly think the news media would not have descended on a standoff in which 4 agents were murdered for attempting to serve warrants?

  Strawman. That's not what happened. Because of the excessive promotion by Texas BATF officials who had set up quite a nice little media center to publicize the event several media showed up at Mount Carmel prior to the raid. Others arrived with the agents themselves.

Did the news media make the Branch Davidians shoot at them?

  No, the assaulting Federal agents did. That is why all 11 were acquitted of murder and conspiracy to commit murder of the four agents who died that day. The Davidians were found to be acting in self defense as the evidence overwhelmingly shows.

Sorry, but everything you are saying about the Waco incident is based on a right wing smear piece which relies almost totally on the testimony of the Branch Davidians...

  Um, no. The "right wing smear peace", as you describe it, lays the blame for the incident primarily on the Texas BATF and the FBI who attempted to clean up the mess in a situation already hopelessly out of control. I get the impression that you haven't seen this film and I would ask that you do so. You are welcome to watch it with as critical an eye as you like. The evidence presented (some of which was used to acquit the Davidians) speaks for itself.

  I would also ask that you consider the following: That very good things sometimes happen under a Conservative government and that very bad things sometimes happen under a Democratic one. Defending beyond the necessity of factual support a crime perpetrated while a Democratic president was in power does little to strengthen the Democratic party, Progressive or Liberal ideology, and elevates this country, in any way, not one bit.

  That is my final word to you on the matter.

PB

[The Night Owl]

38. The official investigation into the Waco incident determined that...

The official investigation into the Waco incident determined that the Branch Davidians were the first to open fire. Just because the court can't determine who among the Branch Davidians opened fire on the BATF doesn't mean they didn't.

Unless we believe the testimony of the child-molesting Branch Davidians to be credible, then we must conclude that there is no evidence that the BATF fired first at the Branch Davidians.

For God's sake, why would the BATF attempt to massacre the Branch Davidians in full view of swarming reporters and cameras? Do you believe that the BATF hated the Branch Davidians so much that they were willing to risk everything to murder them? What nonsense.

And, why did the all the agents involved in the Waco incident go along with the conspiracy you are presuming is true? Are they evil?

Like most conspiracy theories, the conspiracy theory you're attempting to sell here makes no sense whatsoever.

[JHB]

20. "Texas BATF"= "the office/division of the BATF whose jurisdiction...

...included Texas" if that explains things more clearly.

[The Night Owl]

26. Excuse me?

The purpose of the raid on the Branch Davidian compound was not just to arrest David Koresh, but also to conduct a search of the compound for the evidence needed to convict Koresh. Arresting David Koresh outside of the compound would not have removed the need for a raid on the compound.

The fact remains that what happened at Waco was David Koresh's doing. Four agents were murdered in cold blood for doing nothing more than approaching the BD compound to serve warrants. And, the fire which consumed the Branch Davidian compound was started by either Koresh, his followers, or both.

The Branch Davidians did not deserve to die, but David Koresh is the one who murdered them.

[The Night Owl]

33. Half-truth. The right wingers place blame for the Waco incident on...

The right wingers place blame for the Waco incident on Bill Clinton, Janet Reno, and the ATF, not just on Bill Clinton and Janet Reno. In fact, some right wingers hate the ATF so much that they are willing to place all the blame for the Waco incident on the ATF.

[William769]

11. Have you been drinking Jim Joneses Kool-aid?

[The Night Owl]

28. Were the Branch Davidians "training" when they shot and killed 4 agents?

Spare us the conspiracy theories.

[Selatius]

3. Lemme try to answer each of your questions.

Anybody know how Waco would have been treated under Bush?

He would likely never wait as long as Clinton. Wanting to always appear tough, he would've attacked and leveled the compound killing everybody sooner than what actually happened. More people would've died if Bush was in charge.

Was David Koresch one of them?

Do you mean "religious fundamentalist"? Yeah, in my view. I'm sure the feelings were mixed. On one hand, he's very evangelical, but on the other, his preaching that he is the Messiah would offend just as many.

Would the public have responded differently if it was a Black Panther camp?

There would've been more support for the use of violence in certain White, conservative sections of the power structure, in my view. Can't have the Blacks getting all uppity now, can we? A bunch of Black people setting an example for other Blacks is not a good thing in their eyes.

[The Backlash Cometh]

4. See, if the answer to the last question was, that they'd treat a black

Panther camp differently, you can't but reach the conclusion that the public uproar over WACO was politically motivated.

[Poll_Blind]

6. Ever see the documentary "Waco: Rules of Engagement"?

Great movie but more-importantly an incredibly well-done documentary. I don't think that I've seen or heard of anything which, even remotely, does as good a job showing you what really went down there. You can find it at a video store. It's really worth your time if you want to learn about how some pretty messed-up things can go down, even in "The World's Greatest Democracy". If you can, don't see it alone. See it with friends, but especially ones who have already made up their mind that Koresh and his followers were nothing more than homocidal wackos hell-bent on their own suicide.

  I've done this twice in the past with friends of mine who believed everything they saw in the media and both, afterward, were shaken. You may not like what you see, but it gets much closer to the truth you're likely to see on television.

  Here is a teaser/trailer for that movie (which was released sometime before 2000, btw).

Waco the Final Prophesy

PB

[Poppyseedman]

8. "Waco: Rules of Engagement"

I have it on tape.

Watershed moment in my life.

Never did I ever think our government would murder innocent US citizens in such a cold bloodied way and get away with it.

The FLIR film is pretty damming.

[Poll_Blind]

9. The FLIR, especially when they have the guy who INVENTED the...

...system do the analysis, is absolutely incredible. And so much of the other evidence, like the recorded phone calls of the negotiators and the Davidians...remember the exchanges (paraphrased):

NEGOTIATOR: Do you have fire insurance?

DAVIDIAN: No.

NEGOTIATOR: Maybe you should get some.

Or...the one where the negotiator is frantic in his attempt to convince the Davidian on the phone that there were no people with guns on the helicopters? Oh God, I could go on...you would know everything I'm talking about so I won't bother. Incredible stuff. I lost my documentary virginity to another great documentary called "Thin Blue Line". It actually got a wrongly-convicted-of-murder man off of death row and freedom. That's amazing. But I have never seen...how can I say it...the level of obsession over obtaining original source material and present it to viewers along with the most persuasive (i.e. the CREATOR of the FLIR system) experts and their findings.

I wish all documentaries would do such a thorough job.

PB

[The Night Owl]

30. Instead of paraphrasing, why don't you point us to transcripts...

Instead of paraphrasing, why don't you point us to transcripts which you believe prove that the ATF set fire to the Branch Davidian compound? Or, should we just believe your characterizations of what you see on TV or read on the Internet?

[Poll_Blind]

35. Watch the documentary yourself. "Waco: Rules of engagement"

  As to your requests for transcripts, why don't you see if you can't Google them, yourself. It is not my burden to have acess to whatever forensic material you require to feel satisfied. I would presume that were you genuinely curious about getting answers that you would be willing to do some research on your own. I have directed you and any others curious about the facts of the matter to view the Academy Award-Nominated Documentary and I do so again.

PB

[The Night Owl]

39. You are the one charging that the BATF burned down the BD compound...

You are the one charging that the BATF burned down the BD compound, so the burden of proof is on you.

Moreover, I have researched the Waco incident. I am very familiar with all the material presented in Waco: Rules of Engagment... All of it has been either debunked or deemed inconclusive.

[The Night Owl]

29. Sorry, but Waco: Rules of Engagement is a right wing hit piece.

[Poll_Blind]

36. Wouldn't a hit piece lay the blame on Clinton instead of the Texas BATF?

  The "right wing smear peace", as you describe it, lays the blame for the incident primarily on the Texas BATF and the FBI who attempted to clean up the mess in a situation already hopelessly out of control. I get the impression that you haven't seen this film and I would ask that you do so. You are welcome to watch it with as critical an eye as you like. The evidence presented (some of which was used to acquit the Davidians) speaks for itself.

I would also ask that you consider the following: That very good things sometimes happen under a Conservative government and that very bad things sometimes happen under a Democratic one. Defending beyond the necessity of factual support a crime perpetrated while a Democratic president was in power does little to strengthen the Democratic party, Progressive or Liberal ideology, and elevates this country, in any way, not one bit.

PB

[The Night Owl]

40. The people who made Waco: Rules of Engagement do not attempt to accuse...

The people who made Waco: Rules of Engagement do not attempt to accuse Bill Clinton and Janet Reno of ordering the massacre of the Branch Davidians because they don't have to... They knew that their right wing audience would make that leap on their own.

If one believes that the BATF massacred the Branch Davidians, then one does not have to stretch very far to believe that that BATF were ordered to murder the Branch Davidians. Well, gosh... Who do you suppose the right wingers believe ordered the BATF to massacre the Branch Davidians?

[OzarkDem]

10. Bush would have given them federal funding

There are probably similar groups out there today who are getting federal grants. If a Dem gets elected president and these groups lose their "faith based" education funding, watch for some new Koresh types to start advocating to overthrow the government.

[AnnieBW]

12. ATF Had Bad Intel

My best friend from college is married to one of the ATF agents that went in there. In fact, he was the one that was supposed to serve Koresh with his warrant. They were there because the Branch Davidians had a storehouse of illegal weapons, including RPGs. They were also told that the kids in the compound had been molested. My friend's husband had candy bars for the kids in his vest instead of extra ammo. What happened was that their "mole" had been compromised, and they had bad intel going in. They lost the element of surprise, and a firefight started. My friend's husband was shot in the thumb, his partner was shot in the shoulder, and another buddy of his was killed. Apparently the FBI swooped in real soon after the initial raid, then hosed things up even more after that.

What I do respect about Janet Reno is that she took responsibility for it. The decision to storm the compound was hers, and she stood by it.

Just as an aside - my friend's husband filled out his health insurance forms at the hospital as the injury was caused when he was "shot by Jesus."

I'll have to check out this documentary, if only to see him on TV.

[Poll_Blind]

16. I would encourage you to watch "Waco: Rules of Engagement" with...

...as critical eye as you please. I am not challenging your acquaintance's view of what happened but there are a number of points covered in the documentary, to an exceptional level of detail, which would seem to contradict some of those assertions. Specifically, the compromising of the "mole" and the "bad intel". After watching a number of documentaries on the subject (the most authoritative of which, in my opinion, is the one mentioned in my subject line) it does not appear that they were the victims of bad intel so much as persons who ignored intel which did not jive with their preconceived notions.

  When typing that, I am reminded of how the Bush administration was not the victim of bad intel, as they have claimed relentlessly in the past, but victims of their own deliberate manipulation of intel to support what they wanted to see. I don't mean to draw the analogy any farther than that superficial one, but it was a similarity I had not noticed before.

PB

[Marrah_G]

18. hehee

"Shot by Jesus"

You made me snarf my coffee!!!!!!

:rofl:

[lectrobyte]

21. and just this morning, I was wondering Who Would Jesus Shoot.

[benEzra]

17. Bush would have handled it just as badly...

the Ruby Ridge fiasco occurred under Bush the Elder, remember. IIRC, the guy who bungled Waco so badly was the same guy who bungled Ruby Ridge, and the Bush Administration PROMOTED him after RR so that he had the opportunity to bungle Waco as well.

[H2O Man]

19. I watched the show.

I thought it was interesting, and presented both sides fairly. A few years ago, there was a much better documentary that played, I believe, on LINK-TV.

It is a tragic case all around.

[Recursion]

22. Google for Ruby Ridge

And you'll find out how much worse a similar situation could (and did) go under GHWB.

[JHB]

24. Actually, you need to review Ruby Ridge just to understand Waco

It was the botching of Ruby Ridge that put pressure on the BATF to make a show of a big success, which led to the Waco raid, which didn't exactly turn out that way...

[Poll_Blind]

41. Agreed. n/t

PB

[H2O Man]

31. "Every Knee Shall Bow"

by Jess Walter (ReganBooks; 1995) provided interesting information on Ruby Ridge.

[JHB]

23. Saw most of it. It ignored a few factors...

"AoW" didn't touch on a few things that are really necessary to put what happened in its proper context, particularly the Federal law enforcement turf wars of the late 80s and early 90s that prompted the BATF to stage a headline-grabbing "show raid" in the first place.

[Catherine Vincent]

32. Clinton was in office only for a few months so whatever happened

at Waco that was wrong is the first Bush administration's fault.:sarcasm: