Who Would Jesus Torture?

[Coventina]

"Never pay back evil for evil. Let your aims be such as all men count honourable....do not seek revenge, but leave a place for divine retribution; for there is a text which reads, "Justice is mine, says the Lord, I will repay." But there is another text: "If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him a drink....Do not let evil conquer you, but use good to defeat evil." Romans 12: 17-21.


Last night I watched the McLaughlin group and was stunned to hear a self-proclaimed Christian, Pat Buchannon, state that torture is okay if it saves lives. Meaning American lives, of course.

How could anyone who professes to be a follower of Jesus Christ condone torture under ANY circumstances?

Torture is not about the person you want to hurt. Torture is about who YOU are, and the state of your soul, or if you are a materialist, the state of your moral fibre.

Right now there is a dispute in the Republican party, that I feel is also within the soul of America, about whether torture is justified against those who plot to kill us.

Tony Blankley, another McLaughlin panelist, stated his belief that the majority of Americans feel torture is justified if it saves our lives, and therefore, our government is justified in these extreme measures.

Frankly, my sorry life is not worth saving, if it comes at such a cost. If I am threatened or die by terrorism, please America, don't do me any favors by torturing anyone in my name or memory.

What happened to leading by example?

Once we condone the practices that we oppose, what is the use of opposing them anymore? We have simply sunk to their level, and any conflict is merely gangland-style warfare.

Oh America, where art thou?
Or perhaps I should say, Oh America, who have you become?

[KyndCulture]

1. You can get this sticker here.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=2144297&mesg_id=2144297

just for the price of postage and the sticker. CHEAP. I want to get this message out so I ordered a hundred of these yesterday.

I'm so sick of all this. I had to do something to get the word out.

[Coventina]

3. Great minds think alike!

Mine is obviously working slower than yours though.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

2. Irony abounds.

The Republicans have long accused liberals of being moral relativists, yet here they are claiming the end justifies the means; that some bad acts can sometimes be justified, depending on the circumstances. In contrast we are the ones saying that there is a line that can't be crossed, period; and that some acts are evil and immoral under all circumstances. And for saying that we are called traitors and appeasers who care more about the rights of terrorists than the lives of Americans. That's bullshit in a hundred different ways, but they do have a tough time when you ask them to justify an intrinsically immoral act -- they get all twisted out of shape and fall back on their morally relativistic, end-justifies-the-means response. But, indeed, who would Jesus torture? The simple answer is nobody. Ever.

[Rageneau]

4. Didn't the Apostles torture people to get them to accept Jesus?

I can't remember. But I know this: If the Apostles of Christ's day were anything like the Fundies of ours, they were all for torture and murder and anything else to advance God's holy work.

[Coventina]

5. Not sure if your question is serious or not, but I have never seen any

evidence that torture was part of the apostles' strategy.

The closest I can think of is Saul/Paul, who BEFORE his conversion was involved in persecuting Christians.

11 out of the 12 original disciples were executed for their faith.

The Christian faith (as practiced in America) has strayed far, far from it's roots in the teachings of Jesus.

[Bluerthanblue]

10. are you counting John as the

'one' out of the twelve?

Do you count Judas as original? I do- and I also believe his regret was so great he couldn't live with himself. I also believe he is forgiven. (not a popular stand among most 'Christians' I've found)

[Coventina]

11. whoops! I forgot about Judas!

I should have said 10 out of the twelve.

:dunce:

But I agree with you. I think Judas has been forgiven. He certainly expressed his remorse.

[Bluerthanblue]

12. hey, that's ok- thanks and

I'm glad to agree with you-
:hi:

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

6. The early Christians were the torturees rather than the torturers.

Much later, of course, there were atrocities like the Crusades and the Spanish Inquisition, but there's no evidence even suggesting the Apostles used coercion to convert anybody. It wasn't until the Christian church begame powerful that they started forcing conversion under torture or threat of execution. The problem has never been Jesus, it's the people who claim they believe in him but completely disregard what he actually taught. This includes both the Inquisitors and modern fundies.

[warrior1]

7. That should be

the next reporters question to bush

[Bluerthanblue]

8. beautifuly said, and so

true.

Remember that Jesus also said, those who love their life will lose it? Not to store up for yourself treasure on earth? To do good to those who hurt you, and if someone steals your shirt give them your coat as well?

If those who proclaim "Christ" as if he were a liscence to hate, judge, manipulate, and control other people actually DID what he asked- (note his words especially to the pharasees- "You white washed seplecures- you who load burdens on the necks of others that you could never carry- you who wash the outside of the cup while inside are all manner of evils")... If we who claim to love Christ, LIVED as if we did- 'other centered'- then there would be heaven on earth.

The real Christians i know, don't claim the name, or talk the talk as much as they walk the walk, and are found in the most 'unlikely' and uncomfortable places most of the time. They also are widely loved and respected. But rarely famous, overly wealthy, or idle.

I see a HUGE difference between those who are 'religious' and those who live a life that is in large part directed by spiritual beliefs that require one to live as they claim to believe-

Oh human 'kind' will we never learn? Do we really think we can decieve ourselves and others and not be 'found out'??? or 'called out'?

Thank you for your excellent post-
peace,
blu

[Rosemary2205]

9. should be David Gregory's next question. :) nt

[Coventina]

13. Self-aggrandizing kick for the evening.

:kick:

[alfredo]

14. Wasn't there a passage about bearing false witness?

Seems like the holy writings bush purports to follow has a low opinion of lying. In fact I think it is one of the top ten rules of his religion.

[Bluerthanblue]

15. hey now, if your going to be a

stickler for details, yeah-
Like not bearing false witness (bush claimed to know for sure there were wmd's- and he signed papers that said he'd never been arrested- dwi? and he said he saw the first plane hit the tower and thought "wow that guy's a bad pilot" and he said, "I'm a uniter not a divider"... (i could go on...)

Another of the big 10 is
"thou shall not kill"- go back to the hebrew word used in this 'commandment', and it is exactly the same word used in the context of executing someone for a crime- something i think * comes close to holding the record for when Gov- not to mention the uncountable deaths due to his waging war...

Another of the big 10 is
"not coveting thy neighbors__________"...like maybe OIL?

Another is
"not having any 'gods' before GOD-"
Money is a god to *. A god is anything you revere, think about constantly, allow to drive your life and alter you actions... power is another 'god' * worships- HE desires to 'play god' with the lives of others.

Another is
"Thou shall not steal"
.... even if it is only an election- or still, how did * end up with Saddam's gun from the hidey hole?- did Hussein give it to him???

Another..
"Thou shall not take the lord thy God's name in vain"-
* enjoys invoking gods name to justify actions that have NOTHING to do with 'god'- He also claims to speak for god, saying that god told him he wanted him to be president..... talk like that usually puts people in psychiatric facilities....

this could continue on for quite a while.....

[Coventina]

16. he also needs a refresher course on the beatitudes

Starting with "Blessed are the peacemakers"....

[alfredo]

17. The radical right has redefined "Thou Shal not kill"

It is now "thou shall not commit murder." Murder is what poor and minorities do. Killing is what saint bush and the central government does.

[Coventina]

18. kick for Sunday morning

Think of it as my sermonizing.....

:kick:

[Cleita]

19. Buchanan was on Bill Maher, talking about immigration this

weekend. As a decendant of Irish immigrants who probably came here to escape British oppression, his blatant racism should make anyone of Irish blood and Catholic religious heritage cringe.