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Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (01/01/06 through 01/22/2007) Donate to DU
 
kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 01:32 AM
Original message
These people scare the living daylights out of me...
And I've led a hardscrabble life, two tours in Vietnam, and have had my share of fistfights and tough times. I don't scare easily.

But, when they start talking about "torture" like it was a Sunday stroll in the park, then I become concerned. When they start claiming they have a right to lock people away without a hearing or a lawyer - hell, they don't even have to tell you where the secret prisons are - then I get more than just a little concerned. When they say matter-of-factly that I might have to give up some of my liberties in their "war on terror", I am wide awake. I can't believe this shit is happening...
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Kagemusha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 01:35 AM
Response to Original message
1. I've known about this stuff for so long... eerie to see the world catch up
I hope the fact Bush is totally incapable of appreciating the effect this debate is having on soccer moms, security moms, normal, decent American people, wakes more people up and burns into their minds how low their nation has been dragged down. To see out in the open what has been an open secret for so long hidden to so many.

Obviously you've known about this for a long while too kentuck but, they used to at least keep it behind closed doors to not ah, what is that phrase... shock the conscience.
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lvx35 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 01:35 AM
Response to Original message
2. Yeah, its so right out in your face...
I mean, I'm sure these things went on in shady places in South America and so forth before this, but to hear it being SAID by the PRESIDENT on national TV like its nothing...
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Chipper Chat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 01:36 AM
Response to Original message
3. Just shows how far to the hard-right we've travelled.
Bush would have been put in a straight-jacket and taken to Bellevue if he had talked this way in lets say 1985. Reagan would have been the first to commit him.
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eagler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 01:38 AM
Response to Original message
4. The reason you were in Vietnam was to protect the freedoms we
are very much in danger of losing now by the hand of our own government.
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tblue37 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 08:52 AM
Response to Reply #4
25. Nope--sorry.
He was in Vietnam because we were lied into that war, too, and LBJ, though he knew it was a wrong war, did not want to look weak by pulling out the troops. Our freedoms here at home were seriously threatened and undermined, not protected, by the Vietnam War, which is why so many of the protections that Bush is now trashing were put into place following revelation of abuses of our civil liberties during that period.
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NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #25
60. You said that really well n/t
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Erika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 01:39 AM
Response to Original message
5. Remember, this administration are chickenhawks
They know nothing of war. Colin Powell, John Warren, and John McCain are totally against these proposals.

W wants to scare all under terra terra terra to get the GOP vote. Pathetic bastards.
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Amonester Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 10:59 AM
Response to Reply #5
30. And all this just to 'give' his already obscenely rich base of...
have more's many more billions than they'd ever really be able to hide in the tax-heavens of this world...

W could not care less about anyone else even if he tried.
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TomInTib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 01:49 AM
Response to Original message
6. We have come to some strange place....
What has become of us and or country?

We (I) know bad times and mistreatment, but why and how has it become public?

And why are we not all listening to Chris Smither?
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az chela Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 01:50 AM
Response to Original message
7. Unfortunatly this is how the bush administration works
They are war criminals that only care about torturing and killing and defying the laws of this country so that they can become filthy rich.It is all about power and money and they will destroy anyone who gets in their way
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rrasile Donating Member (214 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 09:30 PM
Response to Reply #7
49. War Crimes?
When congress changes the law they won't be war criminals will they. When Bush contends that we need to change the law to protect our CIA integrators from possible legal charges to you suppose he is covering his skinny ass also.
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bdamomma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 07:44 AM
Response to Reply #49
54. check out this thread it may answer your question
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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 01:59 AM
Response to Original message
8. It's easy for people who have never been
Traumatized as in raped, tortured,bullied,or whatever other life altering events that scar a person forever to say" get over it"or to "make light" of it, or to pretend other peoples pain inside concerning traumas isn't really as bad as the victim says it is. For it is the evil caused by the blindness of the fortunate, that allows the casual theory talker,the distant chicken hawk, to SEE torture as a "walk in a park" it's all analytical to them a scene..it is no more real to them than a video game, it is because they have NEVER had their world torn apart before they never had to feel how damn fragile,vulnerable and weak a human body can be when it is overwhelmed and cannot protect the soul inside.

Fortunate people regardless of popular opinions,are a blight upon humanity. It is because they are INSULATED, they don't have to dirty their hands with ugly reality and no one makes them care so they don't care. Remember Barbara Bush's "beautiful mind" comment?...That is the problem in a nutshell... The other side of this problem is the flip side of this,sociopaths bullies authoritarians, abusers ...all the messed up shit head personalities who cannot feel empathy because they are addicted to fantasies in their heads,addicted to power trips,and to domination. They're emotionally defective degenerates who never feel remorse,guilt or shame when they hurt someone,they are only frustrated they got caught.
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civildisoBDence Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 10:50 AM
Response to Reply #8
29. The abused are often the worst abusers
and it seems that DUHbya was abused by his mother and, like most children of privilege, neglected by his father.

The combination of isulation from hardship or responsibility, and a home life marked by authoritarianism and absence, produced the dispicable character of the presidunce.

Newsprism
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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 11:28 AM
Response to Reply #29
33. Actually that is not true
Abused people become worse IF they have sociopathic personality traits. Alot of abused people Do NOT identify with abusers.



REALITY: For a lot of people, it is easier to believe that an abuser is mentally ill than it is to accept that they know exactly what they are doing when they assault, or rape or torture their partner. Most people who abuse their partners are only violent to them, never to anyone else. Most abusers are able to function normally in society, in the workplace, in all their other contacts with people.


MYTH: "Those who abuse were abused themselves as children."

REALITY: There is no evidence that there is a 'cycle of violence', whereby children who were abused, or who witnessed abuse, go on to become abusers themselves. Many abusers come from families with no history of abuse. Many have brothers who are not abusive.
Children who witness abuse do not automatically grow up to be abusive towards their partners, many completely reject the use of abusive behaviour as a result of their experiences.


http://www.scottishwomensaid.co.uk/myths02.html
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 08:53 PM
Response to Reply #33
47. I beg to differ that there is no evidence for a "cycle of violence."
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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 11:05 PM
Response to Reply #47
51. 1 in 4 people
Have some disorder on the spectrum of sociopathy, the cycle of violence is perpetrated by sociopaths and their disordered personalities.A victim is not one to become a perp unless they are already sociopath or narcissistic to begin with. A child can exhibit sociopath traits as young as 2. The sociopaths are the problem.
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Syrinx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 02:18 AM
Response to Original message
9. kay and are
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Mr_Jefferson_24 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 02:25 AM
Response to Original message
10. And well they should. They're dangerous despots.
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fooj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 02:29 AM
Response to Original message
11. War criminals are running our country. It's terrifying.
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Surya Gayatri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 03:17 AM
Response to Original message
12. What we must never forget, Kentuck,
is that the talk of torture & restricted civil rights is primarily for

domestic consumption, intended precisely to keep us in a state of fearful

anticipation & self-censorship. The subliminal message? "We are in

control & we have ways of making you talk. Don't mess with us & don't

question us". How many terrorist trainees are really listening to this

rhetoric in their hideouts? SG

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mongo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #12
36. Yep, and sooner or later
all of these Cia "interregators" will be back home, looking for some way to ply their trade.

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TreasonousBastard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 03:18 AM
Response to Original message
13. From the first day they declared...
"war" and talked about the need for "intelligence" they scared the crap out of me.

Not too long after 9/11, I remember the NY Times magazine running an article about 1500 or so Middle-Easterners being rounded up and sent to parts unknown. They focused on one doctor who was here working here on certification in his specialty, but had a name close to some "terror suspect" so they nailed him. He got out only because a drug company sponsored his stay here and got their lawyers on the case.

Back in the Reagan days, some of these monsters were pulling some of the same tricks, but cooler heads at least knew they couldn't admit it and couldn't go too far. Salvadoran death squads killing nuns and schoolchildren? It didn't happen, or if it did, we don't know who these people are. Lots of terrible things happened under Reagan, and the best that could be said, I suppose, is that it could have been a lot worse.

It's a lot worse now, though. I'm having a brain fart here and can't think of that prick's name-- the one who was undersecretary for Central American affairs under Reagan and now works for Shrub. He may not have been the worst of the lot, but he was in the top five, and he now has free rein to screw with the entire MIddle East, not just a couple of banana republics in Central America. Him, Rumsfeld, and a few others are taking the dreams they had under Reagan and turning them into our nightmares.


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POAS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 03:42 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. Negropante??
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TreasonousBastard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 04:31 AM
Response to Reply #14
18. Nah,- he's another one. Just hit me-- Elliot Abrams...
who well may be the worst of the neocons. Peter Jennings, in an unguarded moment, once loudly hinted at him being a lying, educated but ignorant, arrogant asshole.

Frog-marched for his part in Iran-Contra, but "rehabilitated" like some of his buddies, he's now Shrub's point man for installing "democracy" in the middle east and elsewhere.

Out of the limelight, but always in the middle of things pulling the strings. Wolfowitz with even less acumen, conscience, or decency.

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suegeo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 10:12 AM
Response to Reply #18
26. Don't forget that nut, Poindexter
The uber spy, total info awareness. I think I saw him at the 7-11 last week, decked out in a beret and black pajamas.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 03:58 AM
Response to Original message
15. I can't believe this shit is happening, either. So, let's say it out loud
The pResident wants to make TORTURE legal.

Sing it.

Mr. Bush wants to TORTURE legally.
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magellan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 04:26 AM
Response to Original message
16. What scares me is that they can be so brazen about it
...and no one dares to express even a modicum of outrage. Things haven't changed so much in this world that ANY US President should feel remotely comfortable even considering the proposals Bush** has requested, never mind demanding them like a spoiled child from a podium in the Rose Garden.

He is a genuine dangerous lunatic. At any other point in our history such a man would have been arrested or carted off to the loony bin.

Imagine if Clinton had done this after the first WTC bombing! Imagine the response if he'd admitted on national tv that he wasn't sure if the way he was having suspects interrogated was a crime so he was asking Congress to redefine Article 3!! Screw the Right -- I would have called for his head on a platter!!

And the scariest part of all is that NO ONE in our government behaves as if this is abnormal. NO ONE in our government seems prepared to take the proper and expected action and STOP Bush**. No, they're just going to argue about the legislation, in the politest terms.

This country is fucking doomed, no two ways about it.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 04:31 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. Agree. The terms of the debate are effen' crazy.
We're debating TORTURE, fer Christ's sake.

I feel like I'm living a horror movie.
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POAS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 04:57 AM
Response to Reply #17
19. What debate?
Remember, "It is unacceptable to think" the boy king has decreed.
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Punkingal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 08:37 AM
Response to Reply #16
22. Exactly...
I went to bed Friday night so depressed and scared after watching the performance of that lunatic in the Rose Garden. Is there NO ONE in the media who can see how crazy he is? Tim Russert said he was "animated." He acted like a lunatic, and Tim Russert called it "animated!" Does he have to completely lose it and roll on the ground and foam at the mouth before they get it?

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magellan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 08:23 PM
Response to Reply #22
42. "Animated"?!
I'm glad I didn't hear that. We'd need a new tv.

:banghead:

What's become acceptable in this country since Bush** took over, with his knowledge and approval -- even when he isn't the instigator -- shocks me at every turn. I went to bed on Friday thinking for the first time that he'd finally gone too far, freely admitting to the world in not so many words that he'd had detainees tortured. I thought, if there were ever incontrovertible grounds for arresting this brat king and his cabal, this is it.

Needless to say I wasn't surprised to wake up later and find the lunatic still loose and Biden smiling into the camera as he ignored the true seriousness of what Bush** had said. But was I more depressed and scared and ANGRY? Yes.

There should have been mayhem in Congress following Bush**'s speech. A bonafide revolt. Shouting as reps and senators walked out, refusing to put up a moment longer with an executive branch so wildly out of control that it would dare to insist Congress rewrite laws to excuse the breaking of constitutional and international law.

I can't imagine the level of depravity and corruption in DC that permits this farce to continue.
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 08:25 PM
Response to Reply #42
43. Are they truly that out of touch with the rest of us?
Or are they part of the plan? Sometimes I wonder?
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magellan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 08:45 PM
Response to Reply #43
45. kentuck, I honestly hadn't considered this
Imagine, after six years of Bush** I still have a mental block against assuming the worst in people!

But yes, I think you're onto something. And that's even more frightening than the premise that they're out of touch. It means they're not ignorant; they're cooperating.

I'd really have to suspend my disbelief to think all of Congress is asleep at the wheel. The tacit acceptance of this from both sides of the aisle is not natural.
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Punkingal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 07:15 AM
Response to Reply #42
52. Once again I agree with you.
What is wrong with the Democratic leadership? Why do they just stand by and say nothing? Are they corrupt, or just blind and stupid? And scared? I don't know why they should be scared of someone with his disapproval rating, since it is about 53-57%, depending on which poll you look at. We desperately need leadership, someone to stand up and say that this lunatic has become crazier than the terrorists. He has become a dangerous zealot himself, and there are people whispering in his ear and encouraging this behavior, like Cheney, for instance, I believe.

I remember when Harry Reid shut down the Senate that one time.... I can't immediately recall why he did that, but the MSM covered it, and I thought did a fairly good job of covering it. I know it isn't popular around here to criticize our leadership, but we had better start doing it, and loudly, or they are going to just take us off the cliff along with Bush because of their own corruption, or inablility to see how crazy he is, or whatever their problem is.

It is all so frustrating, but for the first time, I am more scared than angry. Talk about Nero fiddling while Rome burns.....that is how I see the democratic leadership at this juncture.
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emanymton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 06:58 AM
Response to Original message
20. Pro-Torture RW Radio Then Go After The Media For ...
telling about it.

Really terrifying.

The United States Of America has one law. The moral authority of USA comes from its absolute rule of law. It is not only obscene but absurd that the administration is trying to govern under the policy, “Here is the law, how do we get around it.”

How dare the administration and their paid RW radio hosts try to play the ‘legal certainty’ nonsense game to get around doing the right thing with regards to treating accused people held in US prisons? How can America hating types seriously be suggesting USA become like the enemy and ignore international laws, agreements and treaties?

How can USA have sunk so low.


Bush Lied. People Died. Media Cheered.
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peacetalksforall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 08:34 AM
Response to Original message
21. When Dick and Don are finally brought to trial, will they forego
lawyers, laws, juries, judges, appeal?
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HardRocker05 Donating Member (486 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 08:38 AM
Response to Original message
23. yep. nt
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misternormal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 08:41 AM
Response to Original message
24. When the courts have to be consulted...
Edited on Sun Sep-17-06 08:41 AM by misternormal
... to find out if the methods being used to get information are legal or not, that is the point that it has gone too far. imho.
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tinfoil tiaras Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 10:16 AM
Response to Original message
27. I know
It scares me too. If they say that tourturing Iraqies and supposed "terrorists" is okay, then who knows what else will be okay. It's a slippery slope.

America isn't supposed to be this way. We're supposed to stand for freedom and democracy and equality. Not for tourture, oppression and fear. The founding fathers are turning in their graves right now I bet.... :(
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blue cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 10:33 AM
Response to Original message
28. My r-wing family and friend
couldn't care less if muslims get tortured. In fact, they say that we are fighting with one hand tied behind our backs. I just never go there with them because I'm tired of fighting with them. When I fight with them they accuse me of trying to convert them to the dem. party.
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catmandu57 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 11:39 AM
Response to Reply #28
34. That is double scary
That there are people, mostly good people with some certifiable ass munchs thrown in who are willing to turn their head and look the other way while this shit goes on.
They'll say it's to keep us safe, but sooner or later if it's okay to do this shit to them, then how far are we from it being okay to do it to us?
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blue cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #34
37. I know, it is scary
but I am outnumbered. I'm in TX.
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femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 06:23 PM
Response to Reply #34
41. After participating in our local United Way Parade today
where I carried a banner for Sherrod Brown for US Senate, I was walking back to my car. As I passed 3 repugs, the man yelled at me, "Vote Republican and keep our country safe." And I turned around and yelled back, "I'm not stupid nor scared." They got into their truck and left without another word.

I wanted to say I was more afraid of dubya than foreign terrorists....actually dubya is a terrorist.

And that stupid Press Conference on Friday....Dubya sees only 2 alternatives: Either we accept his way of doing things and change Article 3 or all interviews of detainees will stop. What a simpleton....life is just not his way or no way....he's is sooooooooooo like a 5 year old brat.
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specimenfred1984 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 11:21 AM
Response to Original message
31. Only thing different is that they have power now
Same people, same monstrous bigotries and hatreds. All that's happened is that they've been exposed.

All the warnings in the world did no good, mostly because stupid and nieve Americans thought to themselves "my parents aren't like that" or "it could never happen here".

Guess what fckheads across America, you were wrong on both counts.
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Jade Fox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 11:25 AM
Response to Original message
32. And most of them have no idea....
of the reality of what they are discussing, having avoided military duty themselves.

The bar is being lowered on this discussion to a frightening level.
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NotGivingUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 12:09 PM
Response to Original message
35. I keep thinking there's going to be more of a reaction to this and
and then get disappointed. We have got to hang this 'administration' out to dry.
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Annces Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 12:56 PM
Response to Original message
38. The media is 100% down with it too
On ABC the other day, they interviewed a scattering of people in New York subways regarding being searched randomly. They all said, I don't mind. I have nothing to hide. It is a minor inconvience. I swear to god they must have cherry-picked those "I don't mind" answers.
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raccoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 09:18 AM
Response to Reply #38
59. I bet they did cherry-pick them. I bet if anyone objected, ABC
"de-selected" them from the interviews.
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 01:00 PM
Response to Original message
39. We didn't think it would get this far...so soon....did we...
Even it my worst moments I still thought our Democracy was strong enough to hold it back. I don't think that anymore. It is very frightening.
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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 01:07 PM
Response to Original message
40. The evil rethugs have dehumanized the "enemy". The next question is...
Edited on Sun Sep-17-06 01:08 PM by TheGoldenRule
Are the "dissenters" in this country next? :scared:
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vickitulsa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 08:42 PM
Response to Original message
44. Great thread, Kentuck! Excellent OP, too, to kick it off.
Edited on Sun Sep-17-06 08:53 PM by vickitulsa
And as usual, some acute comments from DUers who see the truth and are appalled by it -- of course! -- they saw it a long time ago!

The seemingly uncontested continuation along the Path to Tyranny that this maladministration had planned from the start is so exasperating, so maddening, that we're all gonna be bald from pulling our hair out unless we can see some genuine ACTION among the governed against the criminal thugs in the White House.

But I have a slightly different take on things at this point. I have, in fact, grown so frustrated at what keeps right on happening and so bitterly, rabidly ANGRY at * himself for his arrogance and now even outraged at HIS anger -- as if he has a right to be mad at US, that I am no longer watching or listening to his speeches. I've kept up, however; I know what he's been saying, catch small bits of them at times -- and usually the parts I'm interested in seeing because at least the compliant "news" networks are airing clips that show his "animation" and "fiery deliveries."

Which means they're playing (repeatedly, which is good) exactly the parts of his speeches that will help move a few more of those who once trusted * more firmly into the opposing camp. Too many still don't get it, don't see what's right in front of their eyes, I understand that. But at least many of the "facts of the matter" of what * is trying to do, seeking to openly and literally CHANGE THE LAWS so he can keep on with what he's doing LEGALLY, are still getting out to those of us who continue to need all the info we can get.

As I'm researching and composing my upcoming OP on comparisons of * to Hitler, I've learned just how that maniac thug in the 1930's managed to push things as far as he did and consolidate his power -- even though early on there WERE many who saw what a nutcase he was, believed him dangerous to Germany and Germans, and actually did try to stop him, to eliminate him, to keep some balance in their government and in the halls of power.

Many Germans who had quite a bit of authority in the early thirties (such as the S.A.'s leader, General Rohm) were not going to allow Adolph to have everything his way, including owning ALL the power in the country. The way Hitler overcame their objections was to get the Gestapo formed, geared up and ready, along with the S.S. and a couple of other groups, to "handle" anyone like Rohm who could possibly give him trouble as he rose to power.

So what happened? How did Hitler do it? It's all about the Gestapo.

The Gestapo answered to no civil or military authority except Hitler. In the early 30's he provided them with the weapons and the authority to override and overrule anyone who opposed him -- and to dispose of them. Sometimes secretly, sometimes not so secretly but covering his tracks with lies that Goebbels had ready to send to the news outlets immediately. Hitler caused events such as the Reichstag burning and the border attacks by his operatives disguised as Poles, that appeared to be others attacking Germany and immediately blamed it on others -- against whom he then insisted Germany must go to war.

Because Hitler was cunning enough to build his power base up very high before he tried to "go too far," he was able to eat away at the strength and popularity of any groups or individuals who stood up against him until eventually there WAS no one left to stand up against him. None with the power to succeed, anyway.

He was a madman, but he was extremely cunning and he had street savvy -- as did many of the thugs he utilized to assist him along his way.

There was a point somewhere in the mid- to late-1930's when several entities within Germany tried desperately to put a stop to Hitler's rise to power. He was patient, and he made use of the brilliant knack for propaganda provided to him by Goebbels and others to make sure the public sentiment was not lagging behind as he made his big moves. His timing was always perfect, and that is truly the key to his success, in many respects. It was a repeated pattern.

And here's the singular point of emphasis, IMO: Hitler NEVER moved ahead of or strayed away from his approval ratings! He was too smart to do that. He knew it could all backfire on him if he did, and he'd lose then -- not just ground but EVERYTHING he'd "worked" to get.

I believe what we have right now is a narrow window during which we can truly turn things around in America.

I have hoped we were reaching this tipping point before, over the Plame outing, the Abu Graib horrors, several other times, but the public wasn't quite ready yet. Not quite tired enough of enduring this insanity yet. And although some of them live in FEAR as Hitler -- oops, I mean * -- wants them to, they weren't fearing the right source of threat to America and to them personally. * had already tricked them into fearing the wrong people! Which is how he has gained all his power....

A lot of people have remained confused and almost frozen in place after 9/11. But now things have hit home a lot more here in America, a lot longer I mean, since 9/11. People are hurting in many ways due to *'s policies and actions. Even many of those who once trusted this criminal coward are deciding they've been betrayed and used, and I think even they MAY just be ready to stand up and speak out -- before it really IS too late.

And hopefully their change of mind IS indeed in time.

Hopefully their fear of * is now surpassing their fear of "terraists" whom they've seen little of for five years. They haven't even HEARD much about them except from this administration, fundie preachers, and the compliant media who act as the thugs' mouthpieces way too often.

* is now going too far, even in the eyes of those who would LIKE to keep supporting him and believing in him, is what I'm thinking. He's been exposed, YES; so he's angry and showing his lunatic rage until it's hard for anyone to keep saying they understand what he's doing, how he's behaving, and why it is, why HE is, good for us! How can a leader who is foaming at the mouth in his speeches and wanting to CHANGE THE LAWS so he can TORTURE PEOPLE possibly be "good for us"?

We're at that critical juncture now where if someone or some group or even just a collective outpouring from the public can just manage to stand up effectively to this would-be dictator in America and say, "This far you have gone, but no farther," then the rest of the country will line up behind that individual or that group or that collective voice and keep the pressure on the administration, not giving in to this obvious tricksterism of changing the laws of our nation.

Hitler wanted to do a lot of illegal things in Germany in the early 30's, so he set out to change the laws there, too, rescinding some completely, modifying others, and for certain seeing that NEW laws were put in place that would keep him beyond prosecution and removal. But he did it with more patience and cunning than * and his backers have done.

Hitler was ready BEFORE he tried to "go too far" and say outrageous things and do abominable things that no one would stand for, and he managed to GET THOSE LAWS CHANGED. * isn't ready, he's impatient and pushing too hard too soon. Too much of what he's already done is blowing up in his face. Hitler didn't make that mistake, he got the laws changed FIRST. Thereafter, he was unstoppable -- until he ran into a strong young nation which had not been fully tested in a leadership role in the world yet ... a nation without the war machine to compete with him (but with the capability to build one pronto and get it moving) ... a nation of people who'd been largely isolationist until Hitler's axis partner, Japan, pushed us too far at Pearl Harbor and woke the sleeping giant, filling it with a powerful rage.

Everything came together then to bring Americans TOGETHER to fight true evil in the world, even if we had some selfishly motivated people in some circles doing it for the wrong reasons. The United States DID pretty much make the difference in the early 40's and turn the tide against Hitler, leading to his demise -- his and all his thugs' (except, regrettably, those we then hired to work for us).

I don't think it's gonna be pretty here in America, the last stand that has to happen next. But I believe we may finally be witnessing the "Decider" forcing his own downfall by trying to be too bold too soon as he shows his temper and his desperation, trying to exert pressure to GET THE LAWS CHANGED.

The pressure he and his mouthpieces are applying isn't working, is what I'm seeing. His "fiery" speeches to the American public are not working, either. People are pissed; people are suffering from what he's already done, in a thousand ways and more. People are sick and tired of this sorry excuse for a leader making our country and its people both a laughingstock and a despised superpower. Can't think of any combination more suitable to drawing in enough people to finally MATTER.

So, finally, instead of being merely "angry one more time," and having only my friends at DU to express my concerns to, THIS time I'm angry but honestly HOPEFUL TOO. Hopeful that we can talk with other Americans we normally might not be able to agree with, and join hands with them to STOP THE MONSTER squatting in OUR white House. Stop him BEFORE he gets the laws changed like he wants them.

The torture debate is what I think will ultimately bring this situation to pass, so for that reason and that reason alone I'm glad to see the torture debate taking center stage. This is where folks of good conscience and of any political stripe you can imagine must surely draw the line.

I posted the following in an earlier thread but it was near the end of the lifespan of that thread, so I doubt many people had the chance to see it. I offer it again here (and will probably put it in the OP I keep talking about posting re * compared to Hitler) for anyone who wants to see how a very intelligent and conscientious German citizen named William Shirer saw Hitler finagling and tricking his way to power described it at the time.

It's an excerpt from the diary of the man whose later work, Rise and Fall of the Third Reich, has commanded respect for a long time now.

Copied from this Website: http://www.datasync.com/~davidg59/shirer.html

~~~~~~~~

We who have been so close to this German scene, who have seen with our own eyes the tramping Nazi boots over Europe and heard with our own ears Hitler's hysterical tirades of hate, have found it difficult to keep a sense of historical perspective. I suppose the reasons why Germany has embarked on a career of unbridled conquest go deeper than the mere fact, all-important though it is, that a small band of unprincipled, tough gangsters have seized control of this land, corrupted its whole people, and driven it on its present course. The roots go deeper, I admit, though whether the plant would have flowered as it has without Hitler, I seriously doubt.

One root is the strange, contradictory character of the German people. It is not correct to say, as many of our liberals at home have said, that Nazism is a form of rule and life unnatural to the German people and forced upon them against their wish by a few fanatical derelicts of the last war. It is true that the Nazi Party never polled a majority vote in Germany in a free election, though it came very close. But for the last 3 or 4 years the Nazi regime has expressed something very deep in the German nature and in that respect it has been representative of the people it rules. The Germans as a people lack the balance achieved, say, by the Greeks, the Romans, the French, the British and the Americans. They are continually torn by inner contradictions which make them uncertain, unsatisfied, frustrated, and which force them from one extreme to the other. The Weimar Republic was so extreme in its liberal democracy that the Germans couldn't work it. And now they have turned to the extremes of tyranny because democracy and liberalism forced them to live as individuals, to think and make decisions as free men, and in the chaos of the 20th Century, this was too much of a strain for them. Almost joyfully, almost masochistically, they have turned to an authoritarianism which releases them from the strain of individual decisions and choice and thought and allows them what to a German is a luxury - letting someone else make the decisions and take the risks, in return for which they gladly give their own obedience. The average German craves security. He likes to live in a groove. And he will give up his independence and freedom - at least at this stage of his development - if his rulers provide this.

The German has 2 characters. As an individual, he will give his rationed bread to feed the squirrels in the Tiergarten on a Sunday morning. He can be a kind and considerate person. But as a unit in the Germanic mass he can persecute Jews, torture and murder his fellow men in concentration camps, massacre women and children by bombing and bombardment, overrun without the slightest justification the lands of other peoples, cut them down if they protest and enslave them. It must also be noted down that Hitler's frenzy for bloody conquest is by no means exclusive to him in Germany. The urge to expansion, the hunger for land and space, for what Germans call Lebensraum, has lain long in the soul of the people. Some of Germany's best minds have expressed it in their writings, Fichte, Hegel, Nietzche and Treitschke fired the German people with it in the last century. But our century has not lacked for successors. Karl Haushofer has poured books from his presses dinning into the ears of the Germans the maxim that if their nation is to be great and lasting, it must have more Lebensraum. Books of his such as Macht und Erde (Power and Earth) and Weltpolitik von Heute (World Politics fo Today) have profoundly influenced not only the Nazi leaders but a great mass of people. So has Hans Grimm's Volk ohne Raum (People without Space), a novel which has sold nearly a half-million copies in this country despite its length of some thousand pages. And so has Moeller van den Bruck's The Third Reich, written 11 years before Hitler founded the Third Reich.

All these writings emphasized that Germany was entitled by the laws of history and nature to a space more adequate to its mission in life. That this space would have to be taken from others, mostly from Slavs who had settled on it when the Germans themselves were little more than rough tribesmen, made no difference. It is this basic feeling in almost all Germans that the "lesser breed" of Europeans are not entitled to absolute rights of their own, to a piece of land to till and live on, to the very towns and cities they have built up with their own sweat and toil, if a German covets them, which is in part responsible for the present state of Europe.

It is the evil genius of Adolf Hitler that has aroused this basic feeling and given tangible expression. It is due to this remarkable and terrifying man alone that the German dream now stands a fair chance of coming true. First Germans and then the world grossly underestimated him. It was a appalling error, as first the Germans and now the world are finding out. Today so far as the vast majority of his fellow countrymen are concerned, he has reached a pinnacle never before achieved by a German ruler. He has become - even before his death - a myth, a legend, almost a god, with that quality of divinity which the Japanese people ascribe to their Emperor. To many Germans, he is a figure remote, unreal, hardly human. For them he has become infallible. They say, as many peoples down through history have said of their respective gods: "He is always right."

~~~~~~~~~~~~

I do believe we have an opportunity here, folks, and that it's going to provide that narrow window I spoke of in my opening paragraphs.

We can't blow it! We MUST make the sheeple see and see right now and admit the truth of what they don't WANT to see ... and hope they'll recognize what it is they should REALLY BE FEARING.

And it ain't LIBERALS....


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bobbieinok Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 08:53 PM
Response to Original message
46. heard a discussion about torture (DRehm show??)
They kept saying that the Geneva Convention only applies to soldiers, these people are terrorists.

Secret trials, torture, not letting defence know evidence b/c it's classified, etc. All that is okay, according to these 'experts,' b/c the accused are 'terrorists.'

BUT, how do we know they are terrorists???? Isn't it that the govt/W says 'these people are terrorists, so find evidence to convict'????? Isn't this the Alice in Wonderland/Through the Looking Glass order: 'verdict first, trial second'?
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YOY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 09:26 PM
Response to Original message
48. Me either Kentuck
I can't believe this is even a fucking issue in this day and age.

I was listening to the shithead speak and I wanted to scream at him: "Look, you want the world to see us as the 'good guys', right? Nobody ever said being the 'good guys' was the easier path. You have to actually know right from wrong and not just to say that we are right because we are the USA."
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Danger Mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 10:39 PM
Response to Original message
50. Keep in mind...
Edited on Sun Sep-17-06 10:40 PM by Elrond Hubbard
That many of the people that support Bush also support torture, or worse, for anyone suspected of terrorism (duh, sorry about the typo). That includes you, or me, if we were ever rounded up as 'terror suspects' or 'enemies of the state.' The government could torture us to death, and these people wouldn't lose so much as a wink of sleep over it. They'd watch some American Idol or some Nascar, get their daily dose of propaganda, and crawl into bed, content that Our Great and All-Powerful Leader is keeping them safe from terrorism by stripping away the rights that once made this a great country.
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maine_raptor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 07:38 AM
Response to Original message
53. A very simple formula, kentuck.
Mindless fear in the general populace + Low-minded holders of governmental power = a morally bankrupt and declining country.

Take your pick from history: The Greek nation-states, Rome, Spain during the Reformation, and of course, the Third Reich.

My explanation for how We The People got ourselves into this pickle is:

"This is what happens when you elect a 'C" student in history as President."


Welcome to DU, Elrond Hubbard. :patriot:

Good reply also.

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bdamomma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 07:53 AM
Response to Reply #53
56. These thugs have been planning this for a long time and we
the American people well some of us were oblivious to what was going on behind the scenes, we should have all known when these thugs had the Supreme Court appoint them, we should have been out in the streets then, but we can't go back to the What if's and the Could of's we have to do something now be it peacefully or violently.
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maine_raptor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 08:04 AM
Response to Reply #56
57. Not big on Grand Conspiracies, Alyce.
I lean toward a cyclical view as to the nature of History.

Shit happens and those in a position of power will use that event to further their aims, be it Good or Bad. It's part of the Human Condition, pure and simple.

As for what to do about it.....I plan to vote a straight D ticket. As of now, that is my Right as an American Citizen. I also plan to make sure that as many like-mined people in this here neck of the woods do the same.

We may not be able to oust Olympia! from her seat, but we can damn sure make sure that she feels the heat! Her and all the other R's in this State.

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bdamomma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 08:14 AM
Response to Reply #57
58. hey it's a beginning we all have to get out there and vote
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Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 07:48 AM
Response to Original message
55. There were many warnings...but those who could have done something...
...hid their head in the sand or fell in with the usurpers.

We had our chance...much like the German people had during Hitler's rise to power. The opposition ran away when America needed them the most.

There is no turning back now.
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