Why must we attack X when talking about Y? Warning - Rant ahead....

[The Straight Story]

I cannot count how many times I have seen something like 'Islamic folks reacted poorly to X, discuss' and someone jumps in with 'well, christians suck'.

Oh, and it's not just religion (though I see it most frequently with that). It could be about castro, chavez, iranian leader, russia, china, etc, and someone will pipe up 'well, america ain't no better, look what they did....'

Is it really necessary to complain about what someone else did so as to lessen the depth of what the OP may be speaking about? Can't some things simply stand on their own for evaulation?

I do note something a little interesting in it all though (on the religion side, that is) - start a thread bitching about some fundie idjit, and people stay on target with that. Start a thread about islam, and suddenly it becomes about christians.

And don't go down the road about me and islam, I was the one the other day who posted a damned beautiful op ed from an islamic guy bashing the idjits in the ME on the fringe, and proclaiming that if you want to mess with america you have to go through them first (with no replies...sigh...).

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=2131401

Talking about Kerry? He says something cool we like, and BAM here come the people denouncing his past actions and not trusting him now. Hell, I have done it too :)

How is it we (and I include myself in that) lose the focus and attack something unrelated to the OP?

I remember posting a thread about an atheist who removed some crosses from a road side memorial. Suddenly it became a thread about religion, was I bashing atheists, was someone else bashing them, and we can't bash them but they can bash religion, etc and so on. I didn't write the freaking article or the headline, just posted it as it was as a human interest story.

What if everytime we had a thread about the US and bush I brought up the past wrongs of saddam, hitler, etc and so on? "well hell, we might be bad, but look at what hitler did, so we ain't so bad really, right?" Or when talking about bush I brought up other presidents and their fuck ups? Is that relevant or just trying to do damage control because someone secretly likes that person better than the other?

THIS is why I think some folks thinks the left hates the US. Every columbus day folks are bitching about how the US fucked over the indians. Christmas? oh man, them christians in the US. Immigration? We stole their land and screwed em over good. The list goes on for days.

Summation: America sucks, christians suck, most everything both have ever done suck. Vote for us.
---And you know what, a lot of things both have done have sucked! But that does mean it all has, why focus on the negative? Maybe because it is sooo easy to do, and we fear that anything positive we say about either empowers both in some way.

Reminds me of bush and his war on terror. All negative, all the time, to destroy the enemy. Problem is, when you wage a war of propoganda against the very people you want to put you into office - well, you are gonna lose. Keep telling my dad and sister how evil they are and how bad bush and america suck, instead of telling them how we can make all our lives better. Keep telling them the world is a better place without them, and see how fast they vote for us.

We should be the party of the people, not against the people. You wanna tell me how evil america was and get me to vote for you? How about telling me the good things about the people here, and how we can be even better, without bashing us?

Hate bush all you want. But hating america to me means hating the people that make it up. Like me. Like my little girl. Like my dad.
------------

Almost Lastly, let me make my position clear:
I am a christian.

I am for seperation of church and state. I don't want fundies telling me how to be a christian, I have my own ideals thank you.

I think atheists are fine folk. I think most GD'ers are pretty damn cool, which is why I am here more than the lounge :)

I think fair is fair, if someone brings up some shit about one group, I don't need to bring up what another group does to try to make it ok that the first group did what it did.

I am an American. And while I see our faults, I still can see the faults of others outside of that light, and I don't need to smack down the USA when talking about the crap other countries pull.

I don't like bush. I don't like castro either, even though he was the first person I ever read a biography of and felt he was a pretty fascinating fellow. I can judge him on his life and world without trying to compare to our dumb ass leaders.

I try, and do fail all too often for my taste, to look at things relative to a baseline without calling in data about my country or religious past. Islam has had some shady times, and I can talk about them without bringing in other faiths. I don't try to make the catholic church's wrong look better by bringing up the other religions faults from the history vault.

I remember some teachings from my buddhist days and studies of the Dali Llama - the people of the lake who flew flags to appease the spirits of the lake: sure, we don't believe that such spirits exist, but they do, and it influences their lives and how they deal with others. So in that way, those spirits do exist as they exert an influence (or force). I may not believe how you do, but your beliefs are a part of your life and influence what you do so in that sense they are real. To mock and ridicule them serves no real purpose, and does not allow for a peaceful endeavor.

---------------------------------

Flame away if you must. I just feel we would all be better served to examine things in a more strict light without bringing in the beliefs that those individuals in the past had, and acted upon, to make a point. Everyone in history has sucked. From Europeans to Africans to atheists to christians. None are perfect.

We don't live in the past, and using that as a way to excuse an action (by saying it is no different, and therefore ok, than what others did) based on the wrongness of others in the past seems a little odd.

[TomInTib]

1. We are all in it, together

we all live on the same brown and blue ball.

Circling around some star.

[The Straight Story]

3. A star that won't last :)

Our best bet, put all this crap aside and work to get off this rock and colonize space.

Science has given us terrible weapons, and also great hope. What we do today with that defines our future.

I can see how the prophets of old were able to see into our future. Mankind has been corrupt no matter what - religion, no religion, kings, democracy, etc - all have failed. Give us better weapons, and we will find ways to use them to kill one another.

But that was another day and time. We learn and progress. The past mistakes were just that, past. Every group on earth has fucked up and progressed to some extent. If mankind in general can do so, we have a chance. If not, our great leaps in knowledge will bring about our demise.

Maybe we were better off as a race being ignorant in some ways. Before, we could just kill a few here and there, now we can annihilate the entire race in a day....

[Cobalt-60]

7. What's your poison?

Mars, Venus, the Moon, or Artificial Habitats?
I would like to see a New Space Age somewhere outside the Sci Fi Channel.

[QuestionAll...]

8. our Inner Space has to be looked at first...

can't run away.

[spoony]

2. Very well thought out

I'm pleased to use my first post here to say that that was post was very well put, and if there was an RDA for daily common sense intake, I'd be all set from what you wrote. :hi:

[The Straight Story]

4. Welcome to DU

Hope you enjoy your stay.

And don't mind me, I just tend to rant sometimes :)

[spoony]

5. Thank you

And I wouldn't call that a rant in the proper sense, I didn't see any swearing, excessive exclamation points, sections of all capital letters... :D

[newyawker99]

13. Hi spoony!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[TreasonousBastard]

6. Yeah, that' a pretty common problem...

and not just here and other forums-- I see it all the time in meatspace, too.

We've got plenty of our own Limbaughs who would happily write their own versions of How Things Ought To Be if they could focus enough to actually write a book. Opinions on everything, but when you get right down to it, really believe in nothing, or not much anyway. Rant and rave, and maybe even show up at a pizza party, but when it comes time to actually do something, just flounder around and miss the point. Don't put out signs or work on GOTV, just yell at meetings or on internet boards. Can't tell you how many I've seen who just get in the way.

And I'll admit that I've been bad about that myself too many times. Just couldn't do what had to be done for whatever reason, usually because I promised more than I knew I could do, hoping it would work out somehow.

It's far too easy in any discussion to wander off into your own prejudices, preconceived notions, or personal crusades and miss the point entirely. It's also far too easy to talk before listening. And a board like this makes it even easier.

[CJCRANE]

9. Come on now, historically Z is much better than X or Y!

;)

[CJCRANE]

10. But seriously

you make a good point. We all have our sympathies, whether it be for jews, muslims, christians, atheists etc and when we see that group attacked we often defend them by attacking others. Plus you have to remember that this is Democratic Underground. By definition people come here for a different slant on things and are more prone to stick up for the perceived underdog.

But this is a messageboard so it can be self-correcting, just like your OP is doing by calling us out on this habit.

[etherealtruth]

11. I just responded in an other thread asking the same question ....

(not nearly as well thought out or organized).

I can't understand how citing the "bad actions" of one group (at an other time and place) negates the "bad actions" of the group being discussed.

Sadly (agreeing with you), human beings have done horrific things associated group identities and ideology.

[CJCRANE]

12. It is a matter of context though.

It's clear that the replacement for the Cold War being implemented by the neocons involves invading muslim countries often on propagandized or false pretexts. So we currently see a focus on abuses in muslim countries and the intricacies of islamic theology.

Whilst it's true that many muslim countries have bad human rights records and there are violent injunctions in some parts of islamic doctrines the current atmosphere of focused attention on these seems to be to make out that muslims and Islam are uniquely evil and responsible for most of the violence in the world. That in turn gives rise to support for "killing them before they kill us" (the last polls I saw showed that 85% of US troops in Iraq thought that Saddam was responsible for 9/11, whilst 65% of Republicans in America also believe this).

I think that's where the DUers come in who point out that other cultures have their atrocities and imperfections. For instance I've read that all over the world there are approx 30 wars going at any one time but do we hear much about them? No, we just hear about the one or two that the politicians and MSM want us to focus on. Similarly crime and human rights absues and terrorism are going on all over the world outside of muslim countries all the time (it's a big world out there, there's Latin Ameria, sub-saharan Africa, India, China and the rest of Asia outside the ME, but how much do we hear about what's going on amongst these approx four billion people).

[etherealtruth]

14. I agree

This is the human condition ... not unique to any group.