Immigration Raid Makes a Ghost Town

[proud2BlibKansan]

By RUSS BYNUM, AP


STILLMORE, Ga. (Sept. 15) - Trailer parks lie abandoned. The poultry plant is scrambling to replace more than half its workforce. Business has dried up at stores where Mexican laborers once lined up to buy food, beer and cigarettes just weeks ago.

This Georgia community of about 1,000 people has become little more than a ghost town since Sept. 1, when federal agents began rounding up illegal immigrants.

The sweep has had the unintended effect of underscoring just how vital the illegal immigrants were to the local economy.

More than 120 illegal immigrants have been loaded onto buses bound for immigration courts in Atlanta, 189 miles away. Hundreds more fled Emanuel County. Residents say many scattered into the woods, camping out for days. They worry some are still hiding without food.

more . . .
http://articles.news.aol.com/entertainment/_a/immigration-raid-makes-a-ghost-town/20060915141409990003

[Ecumenist]

1. Surprise, you uneducated morons...

If they go, it has an REAL and NOTICEABLE affect on the rest of the economy... Got it? ESPECIALLY in flyover states and the "bible belt". I swear, if these so called right wingers were any closer to bush and his network of delusional "media talking heads", ie, limbaugh, savage, they'd be behind him\...

[mdmc]

6. imho, bush is even with us on this issue

us being open immigration liberals.

[proud2BlibKansan]

7. He wants the cheap labor

while we are thinking of the human rights of the immigrants.

[mdmc]

13. true

both of us opposing hr4475 from different angles.

[acmavm]

15. So you think only uneducated morons have problems with the situation

of all the illegals in this country? I don't think so.

It's funny how everyone who supports millions of illegals being in this country doing the jobs that American workers used to do at a livable wage call anti-illegal immigration foes names like racist or undeducated moron.

I also notice all the crying and whining from professionals and white collar workers here about corporate America wanting to bring in computer specialists and medical workers. It's always different when it isn't your livelihood, isn't it? It's okay when it's the guy who supported his family doing the dirty work like garbage collection or meat cutting (once a very well paying job) or construction work. But hey, read an article about the bush** admin wanting hundreds of thousands of more visas for professionals and jump back and get out of the way of the stampede of unemployed IT engineers or what have you. Now that, according to them, is UNAMERICAN. That is wrong. Not their jobs dammit.
Just the jobs that were always done by the great unwashed masses. Hell, lower class Americans have no right to expect to be employed in this country. Come here and read the threads. First consideration belongs to those who broke the law and came here to take those jobs.

[proud2BlibKansan]

19. No, first consideration goes to HUMAN BEINGS

Fair wages for ALL and employers held responsible for the inequities in the workforce. How's that for a solution instead of demonizing human beings?

[acmavm]

25. I don't expect you to give a damn about your fellow Americans who

are struggling to support their families. I've read so many of your threads that demonstrate that your slanted political agenda is all that matters. I posted before that I talk to people every day who are looking for work, any kind of work. They ask about current openings, future openings, and they often use the phrase "I'll do anything" or "I don't care what kind of job it is".

Do you see any foreign nation who puts American workers first? Tell me what nation has do many defenders of alien workers outside of this country? Tell me what other nation has a strangely deluded chunk of their population who supports illegal workers in their country, and in fact defends their demonstrations and their flying their country's flag? Tell me who in the hell is going to stand up for the poor in this country if people like you disguise your anti-American worker stance as a human rights issue?

You want to argue human rights, protest to the governments of Central and South America. That's where the problem originates. The Mexican government does not tolerate illegal workers in that country that come from El Salvador or Honduras or any of the other poor Central American countries. They are also intolerant of their indigenous poor and would rather shuffle the problem up here that have to deal with it themselves. Make the citizens of this country deal with it, let the jobs that our poor always relied on go to their citizens rather than them doing what is right for the poor people of their country.

And I am always entertained by wondering what part of illegal is too hard for you to understand? Do you really think that you're in the majority here, that the members of the democratic party, the average joe, supports illegal immigration? If you do than there is nothing more that can be said to you. Reality and you just do not have any kind of working relationship. Illegal immigration is the one issue that the repubs have the upper hand on, and that is why you now see some dem candidates taking a stand on the issue.

Human rights is great, no one will argue with you on that issue. But what do you call it when you take the jobs away from your fellow countryman and give them to someone here illegally? What do you call it when the overabundence of illegal aliens willing to work for peanuts brings down the wages for those without a college education and who are fit only for manual labor positions?

You people say 'blame the employers'. Well we do. We also know that the constant influx of illegas has got to stop as well. Something that apparently you are totally unwilling or unable to face.

[proud2BlibKansan]

30. If the employers are stopped and penalized for importing laborers,

the jobs these laborers seek will be unavailable to them and they will stop coming. What part of that is hard for you to understand?

The enemy is NOT the workers, it is the employer who not only hires them but actively recruits them. Do you not realize that employers take buses across the border and bring these undocumented workers here ILLEGALLY? There is a company here where I live that has even bought an apartment building for the workers and their families to live in.

So try to put yourself in their place. You are living in a shithole with no indoor plumbing or electricity. There are no jobs that pay more than $1.00 an hour. Your kids are hungry. An American businessman tells you if you come with him, you will make a much higher salary and you can live in the finest country on the planet. He will help you get there, and promises to get you the papers and documentation you need to work in the US. Tell me you would say 'no thanks'. I know I would not.

I don't blame the workers. They are the victims here, as are the US citizens who are losing their jobs. Demonizing workers is not the answer. Fair wage legislation and strict enforcement of laws prohibiting hiring undocumented workers will go a lot farther towards solving this problem.

[sufrommich]

32. I'd like to see both.

Stop the flow of illegal immigrants and debilitating fines for hiring them.

[proud2BlibKansan]

35. If we stop making it so easy to hire them

they won't come.

[unlawflcombatnt]

145. Amen

We completely agree on that point. I applaud anyone who advocates prosecuting employers for illegal hiring. It's the employers who are the real beneficiaries of the McCain-Kennedy Amnesty Bill. It is the employers who stand to lose if all of the illegal workers they currently employ are declared illegal employees, and the employers are held accountable for illegally hiring them. That's the real objective of the McCain-Kennedy Bill - to immunize the employers from prosecution for previous illegal hiring.

Who do would be (technically) easiest to prosecute? An illegal immigrant who has individually broken the law and has relatively little to lose? Or an employer who's hired 200 illegal immigrants, who has committed 200 separate hiring violations, and who can realistically be fined thousands of dollars for his collective violations?

It's the same parallel as drug dealers. They go after the biggest violators-- the ones who have committed the most crimes and the highest volume of crime-- the ones they can penalize the most.

In the case of illegal immigration, this would fall clearly on the employers. The employers have a lot to lose. Illegal immigrants have little. Clearly enforcement should start with those who have the most to lose.

Without the illegal hiring activity of employers, we wouldn't have a problem with illegal immigration. Employers are the cause.

unlawflcombatnt

EconomicPopulistCommentary

EconomicPatriotForum

___________
The economy needs balance between the "means of production" & "means of consumption."

[acmavm]

34. You try and put yourself in the place of your poorer fellow countryman

for a change.

I understand wanting a better life for my family. Don't you dare talk down to me about things like that. What I don't understand is people like you thinking that the compassion, rights, and jobs should go to people from another country first, not to Americans.

I remember one poll you posted here. It should have told you that your elitist anti-American worker nonsense doesn't even fly here. Apparently you are just one of those that refuses to learn.

I certainly agree that it is imperative that we start to prosecute employers of illegals. I also am smart enough to understand that we have to prevent illegals from coming into this country because they are an even bigger drain on the system if they are UNEMPLOYED which, if the laws in this country are enforced and things take their proper course, they will be.

[Name removed]

37. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

47. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[proud2BlibKansan]

57. Accusing me of being against American workers

because I favor the humanist approach for solving immigration problems makes as much since as anyone calling you a racist for opposing immigrants' rights.

I am not the one being smug here. :eyes:

[Name removed]

59. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

73. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[datasuspect]

33. i'm one of those people looking for work

part of the problem (and it is NOT illegal immigrants) is that wages are seriously deflated in many parts of the country. there were record numbers of illegal immigrants 10 years ago and EVERYONE i know was making more then than they are now.



i often get the advice "take whatever job you can get."

here's the rub: without deleting 10 years of job history, it is almost impossible to get hired on at mcdonalds if you have had many years of professional or semi-professional experience. your salary history gets in the way too: how do rationalize going from jobs paying in the mid 50s to trying to be a serious candidate for an $8/hour job?

most hiring managers won't give you the job, because they realize if you find something better (which a job history can substantiate; i.e., if you've worked at better jobs, they assume you can get a better job) you'll sky up on them.

and as far as i know, shit jobs have ALWAYS paid shit wages.

you can still get paid $20/hour to haul trash for chicago's streets and san or NYC sanitation, but guess what, you better be well connected too.

in our area, the municipalities subcontract waste disposal to waste management. i see white males picking up the trash around here.

i honestly don't know the answer: but i do know that employers are getting away with murder and $7-$8/hour is the new standard for what they consider "good pay" these days.

[cornermouse]

36. Another problem with working at McDonalds

Let's face it, if you're an adult working at McDonalds chances are your self-confidence has taken a major hit somewhere along the way. And if your non-fast food type job experience is old enough and the only recent job history you can produce is a fast food type job, you're going to find it difficult to convince the interviewer to hire you.

[datasuspect]

38. i live in an extremely high unemployment area of texas

my point was, sometimes you simply cannot GET a shit job even if you wanted one.

[Breeze54]

87. I call BS!!! n/t

[acmavm]

46. Wages are deflated because of the availability of all the cheap labor.

Construction used to be a big wage job, a good job for a family man. Not any more.

Packing plant work used to be a big wage job, especially here where we used to have the world's biggest stockyard. Then they shut down the stockyard and the packing plants went to the southwest where the cheap foreign and illegal labor was. Now the plants that are left up here are either full of illegal laborers or closed.

It used to be funny to wake up on Sunday morning and read about the shitloads of illegals that were rounded up out in Grand Island at Montfort. Funny things was next day they were back in business and a couple of weeks later they were raided again. Montfort is closed now, in Grand Island anyway. Apparently they got sick of being raided. Montfort is a ConAgra company so it wasn't an issue of the company going bankrupt. The fines and bad publicity probably did it for them because it was certainly a sore spot with a lot of Nebraskans, especially those that used to support their family on good wages working in the packing plants.

See, you pretty much prove my point.

<snip>here's the rub: without deleting 10 years of job history, it is almost impossible to get hired on at mcdonalds if you have had many years of professional or semi-professional experience. your salary history gets in the way too: how do rationalize going from jobs paying in the mid 50s to trying to be a serious candidate for an $8/hour job?

most hiring managers won't give you the job, because they realize if you find something better (which a job history can substantiate; i.e., if you've worked at better jobs, they assume you can get a better job) you'll sky up on them.

and as far as i know, shit jobs have ALWAYS paid shit wages.

-whatever-

So you see yourself as a 'professional' or a 'semi-professional'? You think that you're supposed to be treated differently than the great unwashed and unprofessional? Do you think that I'm stupid enough to believe that you can't find something? Try retail. It's a drag but I did it to get by. And I didn't get by well, the hours were screwed up, and it was hard on the feet and back. And I consider myself 'semi-professional' at the very least. McDonald's isn't picky. And people don't last in those places very long anyway. They won't hire you? Then try waiting tables. Or whatever. I always did something. It may not have allowed me to pay all my bills and have any extras, but I've always done something.

You are the perfect example of the type who thinks their 'semi-professional or professional' status should accord them some kind of special sympathy in the publics collective conscience. That you or people like you are entitled to work, good paying work, unlike thosed in the 'less than professional' fields.

Shit jobs always paid poorly? What's a shit job to you? Yes, garbage haulers earn decent money. They should. Lack of refuse pickup can paralyze a city. Ask New York. Define shit job please.

The guy who used to stock the shelves at the grocery store I went to had his Doctorate in marine biology. I don't know where he's at now since the store closed sometime ago, but I do know that he could stock a mean can section. The corn was NEVER mixed in with the peas. And he did it because he knew he had to. An attorney to whome I once applied for a job said to me that "you're just like my father. He always found work of some sort. You'll be allright." Yeah, I always found work. I wonder if it's what you call a shit job.

Bottom line, you get no sympathy from me. You apparently think that illegal workers flooding the job market don't have anything to do with low wages. That's assinine. I can see why you're not working.

[sufrommich]

48. Acmavm,

You are rapidly becoming one of my favorite posters.By the way,"garbage haulers" are usually union jobs,hence,good pay and benefits.Unions have a way of turning "shit jobs"into good jobs that a family can live on and prosper.

[Deja Q]

56. Bingo.

:thumbsup:

People have to stick together. And that's the point of a union. A union is only as good as those in it are wanting to stick up for themselves. (though in some unions, when the management is yellow or spineless, that trickles down to the members who become cynical too...)

[acmavm]

58. Thanks. The Utopian 'Let 'em all in' crowd (which are really a minority)

here refuse to give up their feel good positions and look reality dead square in the face and see what this problem is doing to our poor country. Hell, just for shits and giggles I'll throw in another complication. It's really screwing up those that have applied, and I mean LEGALLY applied to enter this country. The lawbreakers are so numerous that they kick those people to the back of the bus.

What I want you to watch for are threads (not so numerous right now but after November watch for them) about big business and the republicans wanting to issue more H-1B visas for 'professionals' in industries such as health care and medical fields. Then listen to the hissy fits. People screech like a herd (or whatever) of cats on a back fence. Because those jobs go the the college educated, those that see themselfs as being different, as being special, as being separate from those who have to rely on manual skills and labor to survive.

Here's an old article from 1996 originally published in the Philadephia Equirer. This article is ten years old. But how relevant is it today? So relevant that its scary:

<snip>
Next: High-tech jobs are going the way of blue-collar jobs - offshore.
Copyright © 1996 The Philadelphia Inquirer
Reprinted with permission from The Philadelphia Inquirer, 1996.

AMERICA: WHO STOLE THE DREAM?
Part Six

FOREIGN WORKERS HAVE BEEN RECRUITED - UNDER SPECIAL PROGRAMS - FOR JOBS IN

AMERICA. EMPLOYERS SAID THERE WERE NO QUALIFIED AMERICANS AVAILABLE.

THE INFLUX IS CONTRIBUTING TO A LABOR GLUT, HOLDING DOWN WAGES.

By Donald L. Barlett and James B. Steele, INQUIRER STAFF WRITERS
HELP WANTED:


Auto mechanic for a service station in Alexandria, Va.; pays $17.57 an hour. Accountant for an investment firm in Wilmington; pays $40,000 a year. Carpet layer for a rug company in Laurel, Md., $16.40 an hour. Pharmacist for a drugstore in Huntington, W. Va.; pays $55,000. Software engineer for a phone company in Murray Hill, N.J.; pays $45,700. Manager of a savings and loan in York, Pa.; pays $25,000.
Don't feel especially qualified for any of those openings? Well, then, how about one of these:


Supervisor for a cab company in Philadelphia; pays $21,000. Cook at a pizza shop in Wayne, Pa.; pays $10.71 an hour. Management trainee at a hotel in Arlington, Va.; pays $22,685. Programmer analyst at a pharmaceutical firm, Collegeville, Pa.; pays $37,000. Household worker in a private home, Wallingford, Pa.; $9.20 an hour. Veterinary technician at an animal clinic in New Hope, Pa.; $10 an hour.
Any of those jobs appeal to you?

Do you think someone, somewhere in America is capable of handling one of them?

The U.S. government doesn't think so.

It approved applications filed by businesses so they could hire foreign workers to fill those and other jobs. The businesses claimed - and the government agreed - that no qualified Americans could be found where the jobs were located.

At a time when countless Americans have lost their jobs due to imports and corporate layoffs, U.S. companies have been recruiting tens of thousands of workers from around the world. All with the blessing of Congress.

As a result, too many workers are chasing too few good jobs. This, in turn, has helped force down wages in many fields, held increases to a minimum in others, and contributed to the overall decline in the standard of living for many middle-class families.

The recruiting of foreign workers goes beyond businesses. Individuals - largely the affluent - also bring in foreign nationals to perform household and child-care tasks that they say no American is willing to do for the wages offered.

In each case, the businesses or individuals have filed applications with the U.S. Department of Labor saying they need to hire foreign workers because "there are not sufficient U.S. workers who are able, willing, qualified and available at the place where the alien is to perform the skilled or unskilled labor."

The Labor Department is required - by law - essentially to rubber-stamp the applications if the paperwork is in order and several general requirements have been fulfilled.

http://www.backlash.com/content/corp/2000/dbjs0800.html

--tons more--

<snip>
Debunking the Myth of a Desperate Software Labor Shortage

Testimony to the U.S. House Judiciary Committee
Subcommittee on Immigration
Presented April 21, 1998; updated December 9, 2002
http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/itaa.real.html
<snip>

<snip>
Specter proposes increase in aliens
By Stephen Dinan
THE WASHINGTON TIMES
November 26, 2005

A draft immigration bill from Judiciary Committee Chairman Arlen Specter calls for dramatic increases in legal immigration, far beyond any of the other major proposals now before Congress.
Immigration and border security have become the hottest issues in Washington, with senators and members of Congress filing bill after bill to address them. The Senate is preparing for a major debate early next year on an overhaul, including creating a new flow of foreign workers like that contained in the bill by Mr. Specter, Pennsylvania Republican.
The House, meanwhile, is pushing toward a vote this year specifically on border and immigration enforcement.
"What we want to do is go home saying we've taken a first step, and it's not just at the hearing level, and we've voted on something," said Rep. Jack Kingston, Georgia Republican and vice chairman of the House Republican Conference.

-more blah blah blah-

edit: forgot to add

David S. Broder / Syndicated columnist

Mr. Gates comes to Washington with a plea for smart foreigners
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/opinion/2002872516_broder19.html

WASHINGTON — When the Senate comes back to work next week, it is scheduled to take up the issue of immigration. And that is what brought Bill Gates to Washington for a rare visit last week.

The Microsoft billionaire does not love this capital, but he decided to add his personal voice to his Washington office's lobbying effort to expand the number of foreign-born computer scientists allowed to work in this country under a special program known as H1B visas.

In an interview sandwiched between his meetings on Capitol Hill, Gates told me that the "high-skills immigration issue is by far the No. 1 thing" on the Washington agenda for Microsoft and for the electronics industry generally. "This is gigantic for us."

Since autumn 2003, Congress has limited the number of people admitted annually on H1B visas to 65,000. To qualify for such a visa, a person must have at least a bachelor's degree and specialized knowledge and a job offer from an American employer. The visa is generally good for six years, with the possibility of applying for extensions.

<snip>
The draft bill that Senate Judiciary Committee Chairman Arlen Specter has been trying to prepare for floor consideration would expand the annual H1B limit from 65,000 to 115,000. By excluding dependents (who now are counted against the cap) from the total, it might mean the entry of as many as 300,000 people a year — one-tenth of 1 percent of the U.S. population.

As Gates said, these are highly paid, highly qualified individuals. Salaries for these jobs at Microsoft start at about $100,000 a year.

-more more more-

*************************************************************************
Watch, when this crap starts to hit the fan again in November watch this board. A lot of the people who don't give a damn about Joe Six-pack will be whining so damn loud it'll be like fingernails on a blackboard. And what's worse, they believe that they are due the support and sympathy.

[Deja Q]

55. At least you can get a job in retail.

I have no criminal record. I'm a damn good worker with a damn good record. Nobody bothers to look at that; they have me fill out a test with a #2 pencil with some rudimentary math questions and some psychological garbage about hypothetical situations; few of which ever happen in the first place. All they want are extroverts who don't think. Just being an introvert is enough to be denied an interview.

And I've tried for MANY places too.

[hfojvt]

139. I have never been able to get either a retail or a fast food job

and I have applied for lots of them since high school. I once went on a minor campaign to get a dish-washing job at the local restaurant. Talked to the manager several times and started having lunch there with friends. Never got anywhere.

However, to agree with datasuspect, when I applied for my current job I did not put my MA on the application because it has seemed that some employers have used that as a reason to not hire me for a good paying 'grunt' job. Also that taking a grunt job seems to be a trap - it seems to taint you in the eyes of HR people and plus THAT becomes the kind of work that you have experience in.

[NorthernSpy]

162. a thousand thanks, Acmavm...

... for saying that so well!


:toast:

[Name removed]

165. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[gorbal]

246. Aren't Illegal imigrants a scapegoat

I think this is the perfect issue for republicans to bring up now because it has us fighting amongst ourselves over a scapegoat for our problems ,when we should be focusing on the real cause...the laws of the land suit the rich, but not the workers.

I watch people on here argue, they basically agree, but they still argue so vehemently I imagine rabid dogs tearing each other apart while Carl Rove and the top 1 percent that control the dogfight cackle and eat popcorn.

[Deja Q]

54. BRAVO! RIGHT ON!!!

:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:

In addition,

No other country gives a damn about Americans - regardless of color, creed, or class.

And when the corporate leaders get snubbed by the folks they're leeching from via offshoring and H1B abuse, what's going to happen? The corporate folks are just as much Americans as the rest of us and will be just as stuck too. Hoisted by their own petard.

Each country is responsible for running itself and the treatment of its people. The fact the US gets a lot of illegal aliens shows two things: 1. The corporate elite want to destroy America. 2. The illegals don't give a fuck about their own country, so why will they care for ours? They don't. They have no allegience to anybody except themselves. And that's as low on the 'civility totem pole' as extortion or embezzlement. (Indeed, I feel sorry for Americans who were able to move out. They're going to get the same sorts of harrassment and the folks I talk to have told me not only how hard it is to emigrate, but that their countries need to deal with their own first and foremost... maybe the US ought to do the same thing again too.)

And before anyone says it, how far back in human history do we go regarding "Who's native and who isn't"? Let's start with the present and look forward. Not backward; we can't do shit about the past; it's already happened. You gotta do the right thing to make up for the past and make a better future. (I wonder what Cortez' POV was...)

[EFerrari]

74. Hypno Toad, do you know ANYTHING about the history of YOUR

government's intrusions in Latin America?

[EFerrari]

72. This is a perfect example of how little people know about Latin America.

You know why those people come here? Because the United States has so severely messed with democracy in Latin America in order to benefit their corporate interests. That's why.

It's a logical consequence. What part of "logical consequence" don't you understand?

I love these "progressives" who have no idea what social justice means. It's hilarious.

[acmavm]

82. Every now and then you run across that rare post that tries to insinuate

that condition A was mandated by situation X even though they are absolutely two separate and distinct issues. And the poster is so damn serious and sincere it makes you feel almost guilty for laughing.

This is one of those posts.

[EFerrari]

84. Ridicule is no substitute for knowledge. Nice try!

:)

[acmavm]

88. Some people just make it so easy.

[Name removed]

90. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cornermouse]

104. That's right.

A perfect example of a personal attack is post #87. Its not about skin color. Its about legal vs. illegal. Its about people like Stacie and how little some democrats appear to care about them. I don't know what color Stacie is. I just know she was working for $5.60 at McDonalds and is now working at the chicken plant who was forced to offer higher wages. I happen to think that's a good thing.

[EFerrari]

105. That is exactly the way the Republicans took the South

when LBJ was putting through Civil Rights legislation.

"Law and order".

[cornermouse]

111. Law and order as opposed to what?

Anarchy and chaos? Everyone doing whatever they want? Excuse me, but isn't that (anarchy and chaos and everyone doing whatever they want to do) exactly what Bush and his group are doing right now?

[EFerrari]

114. "Law and order" is code, DUer, for segregation. n/t

[cornermouse]

119. My best friend and maid of honor was black, chucklehead.

[EFerrari]

121. Name calling. Nice. n/t

[cornermouse]

129. You have accused various people of being racist for nothing more

than having a point of view that differs from yours. I merely pointed out how wrong you are. Of course, if you want to go along with the one rule for thee and another for me rule that Bush and the republicans are so fond of using....

Back at ya. This democrat does not cower.

[EFerrari]

131. Yes, I know. You want "law and order".

[lumberjack_jeff]

249. It's not socially just to expect US workers to give away their jobs. n/t

[Greyhound]

86. I don't see what you two are fighting about. Both of you are pointing

to a serious problem, and Proud has stated the only solution to the problem. Making the employers pay through the nose financially with jail-time for repeat offenses, makes this a non-issue in just a couple of years.

Nobody can blame the people that are coming here after considering the risks against the potential benefits, just as the displaced workers that pay the price for this abominable practice are thoroughly justified in their anger.

The main problem seems to be that neither party is willing to even talk about real solutions, only unworkable bureaucratic make-work that ensures millions more of our dollars going to graft and a continued supply of cheap labor.

[Jed Dilligan]

98. I don't trust law enforcement enough to follow you.

A crackdown on employers would get the little guys and let the big offenders (Con-Agra, Frito-Lay, McDonalds, etc.) walk away scot-free.

I'm really not sure I buy that illegals are depressing wages all that much. On a local scale, if you drive out most of the population, of course there will be a labor shortage and wages will rise. Anecdotally, I've known and even lived with a lot of illegals and not a single one took less than minimum wage for any job. Most made 10-15/hour. The main difference economically is that they are willing to stack people up in housing and eat communally and share cars so that they can afford to live where wages are high.

[Greyhound]

106. It is incumbent on us to demand that the laws are enforced, just as

it is apparently up to us to ensure that they are passed in the first place.

As for the poultry industry in the south, they laid off workers making the princely sum of $6 - $8 p/hr in order to hire the illegals @ $5, and more importantly they no longer had to worry about those pesky safety complaints, when an illegal worker sustains an injury you just fire them and hire her roomate. The laid off workers were then forced into the pitiful social programs that the southern politiwhores love to cut year after year.

[Jed Dilligan]

124. I think unionizing the illegals is a better idea

to cope with these problems then trying to ship them away.

[Raydawg1234]

182. Bush is a human being

[Ecumenist]

244. Well, technically he is

but he has no heart or compassion. He's a similacrum of human shaped object.

[Ecumenist]

243. Proud2B, Girl...

You put this into a nice tidy and succinct package. That's what it's all about. "And let the church say, AMEN. AMEN!!!"

[sufrommich]

23. Bravo!

As a Democrat,I want to see my party supporting working class Americans.That means stopping the flow of illegal immigrants to raise real wages in blue collar jobs.It sounds like the businesses in this town in Georgia are going to have to pay higher wages to attract workers now.

[acmavm]

26. What a frigging novel idea. But here's something I'd like explained

to me. This little Georgia town survived on the income earned from the low paying jobs of the illegals? How could that be possible? I mean if they are being paid so much less than what Americans will work for, what are they charging these illegal workers for goods and services?

[sufrommich]

31. Good question

I googled Stillmore,it's median income is 26,827 as opposed to the national median income of 41,994.It sounds like a very economically depressed area.It also went for Bush in the last 2 presidential elections.These kinds of areas in the U.S. should be as blue as the sky,and yet they aren't.If we Democrats don't start talking to these people in a respectful way and offering to try and raise the incomes of poor people in this country instead of ignoring them in favor of illegal aliens,we're sunk.There is no reason on God's green earth that working people should EVER vote for a republican,and yet they do,in droves,Maybe someday my party will get back to basics,instead of being drawn into defending illegal aliens and impossibly low wages.

[lildreamer316]

John Edwards is trying to make headway..

on this issue.
I'm not particularly on his bandwagon or off (I'm a huge Gore enthusiast=avatar)but he has made this issue his main theme for the last few years, even before the last election. If more in the party would listen to his way of framing and relating to people, we certainly would make headway on this problem. He's got the right idea.

[lildreamer316]

41. Believe it or not,

you'd be suprised what you can live on if you forgo some 'necessities" here in the south. It is still possible to scratch out a semi-living on $8 an hour. Of course, that excludes almost any kind of insurance (eg. many ppl to one car, liability only!everyone chips in, and forget the health ins. completely of course); and the goodwill stores are always busy. But..it's possible; just barely, and with a lot of luck. Dollar stores and food pantries are busy/empty; and there's a high trade in stealing electronics on the side(that's not a judgement call, just the truth).
Some have connections to drug trades, and one importer can obviously help many families (again not a judgement call, just stating facts--hubby used to work in a mexican strip joint). I'm not saying that's the norm, but when you put all that together, it adds up.

[Name removed]

53. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Viva_La_Revolution]

65. Should we not consider first...

Those who are doing the hiring? If illegals can't find anyone willing to hire them, they will not come over.


That's the root of the problem.

[Ecumenist]

172. Actually Acmavm, I wasn't referring to members of DU

I was referring to the people who don't THINK ABOUT THE FACT THAT ALOT OF OUR ECONOMY IS BALANCED ON THE BACK OF THE ILLEGAL. I have a problem with the laser light focus on illegals that look a certain way. I KNOW FROM FIRSTHAND EXPERIENCE that there are just as many, IF NOT MORE illegal immigrants in many areas of the country from Europe, especially Eastern europe and the former Soviet Union, not to mention CANADA. The problem is that the face of those illegals look like the majority of the folks crying about the illiegals FROM MEXICO. Let's face it, at least here in California, the MAJORITY of the agricultural workforce is supplied by people who have the last names like Gonzales, Aguilar, Rodriguez etc. AND GUESS WHAT? CALIFORNIA, along with Arizona, New Mexico, Texas BELONGED TO MEXICO before it was "annexed", which ias a nice way of saying "STOLEN". This fact is BLYTHELY overlooked by the most vocal of the ant immigrant movement.

I'm not saying that there's nothing to be worried about or that there isn't a real concern being raised by the recruiting, (and yes, companies ranging from big agricultural conglomerates to fortunbe 5000 companies in the high tech sector go to other countries recruting workers, who are OFTEN ILLEGALLY HERE), because it definitely make the playing field into something akin to a cliff for hardworking Americans who have often attended university only to find themselves pretty much priced out of the market. Something has to be done to protect the average Joe Blow and Suzie Q from coming to work one day and basically receiving th equivalent of a de facto pink slip when either their job is outsourced or someone from somewhere in India.

[Deja Q]

52. Don't worry. Offshoring will get us all in the end.

[Ecumenist]

175. Hypno, I was referring to pinheads who

never think about the fact that so much has changed to depend on the Illegal worker that there are SEVERE unitended consequences to suddenly sending these HARDWORKING people back.

[TahitiNut]

96. It's 1860: "Free the slaves and it hurts the economy!!"

It's funny how amorality continues to make the same old excuses. :puke:

[Ecumenist]

176. Tahiti, I am the great-great-granddaughter

of Slaves so this is something close to my heart. There is a better way but in order for that way to be implemented, PEOPLE have to change the way they view the average worker and respect their right to make a fair and viable living.

[TahitiNut]

237. Yes, and that includes neighboring countries, too.

Shoring up an economically oppressive regime next door so there's a 'warehouse' of coerced labor available isn't the way to do it.

As far as I'm concerned, people who look on with approval as people who've come illegally from an exploitative and oppresive economy work hard for less in America ("Isn't that wonderful?") sound exactly like Barbara Bush in Houston when she looked at the displaced poor people from New Orleans and remarked how good they had it in the converted stadium. (They went there "voluntarily," too!!)

It's detestible! :puke: :puke:

Jail the employers; confiscate their businesses; bringdonw the "hammer" on Mexico to end many decades of economic opression: their plantation economy.

[unlawflcombatnt]

154. "Morons"

Yes, there certainly are a lot of uneducated, self-serving, pro-amnesty, pro-open border, Bush-supporting "morons." They continue advocating amnesty for illegal immigrants and their employers. And their past illegal activity certainly has had "real" effects on our economy, and all of them were bad. Some of these effects are now being reversed, ever so slightly.

Already some employers are being forced to raise wages to hire Americans, because they can no longer illegally hire illegal immigrants for starvation-level wages. And those "uneducated morons" who claim this will hurt the economy are ALREADY being proven wrong. American workers are already being hired at higher wages to replace the illegal workers that were let go.

The Bush moron-ocracy is starting to unravel, along with interests of his pro-amnesty/open borders supporters. Their desire to bring down wages of American workers through wage competition with illegal immigrants has run into a brick wall, at least in some locations.

unlawflcombatnt

EconomicPopulistCommentary

EconomicPatriotForum

___________
The economy needs balance between the "means of production" & "means of consumption."

[Ecumenist]

178. Amen. Too many of these types cannot or will not

consider the world beyond the end of their noses.

[acmejack]

2. This certainly is a popular article!

[proud2BlibKansan]

4. from the article:

"The raids came during a fall election season in which immigration is a top issue."

[Skidmore]

3. Well, then let us start advertising those jobs at fair wages so

American citizens are aware of their availibility.

[proud2BlibKansan]

5. Sure

Good idea - but I won't be holding my breath.

[man4allcats]

9. Sounds like an entirely sensible AND entirely legal

idea to me. :thumbsup:

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

8. Here's one resident's response to seeing these people handcuffed and

herded onto the buses.

"These people might not have American rights, but they've damn sure got human rights," Robinson said. "There ain't no reason to treat them like animals."

This from a Deep South Southerner.

One of the residents also compared the "round up" to Nazi Germany.

MKJ

[lildreamer316]

43. THANK you.

Hate to do this sorta, but the next time I see and ignorant-dumbass-southerner thread; I'm going to point them to this.

Most ppl there probably got to know these immigrants as people and as neighbors--and once you've broken down that wall, southerners are as loyal and protective as anyone else. As any American,really....I should say.

[NorthernSpy]

149. ROTFLMAO!! That's the guy who owns the trailer park where the illegals...

... were living -- and forking over rent -- until the raids.

But no, I wouldn't suppose that Mr. Robinson's little outburst had anything to do with his strong financial interest in the situation. Just as the fact that every single person quoted in the article as condemning the raids was making money off the illegals is purely coincidental.

:rofl:


Oh, gawd... talk about naive!

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

152. Well, apparently, they were exemplary tenants. n/t

MKJ

[NorthernSpy]

160. they were little walking dollar signs...

... to the backwoods awntray-prey-noooer who is suddenly faced with the bother of having to make an honest living.

He might even have to go to work down at the chicken plant. There are lots of openings now, and they've just raised the starting wage, but still... Poor, poor businessman. So cruel, Fate.


:cry:

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

161. His remark speaks for itself. I'd imagine he has some positive

views of the hard working, responsible tenants that populated the trailer park.

Thus, his apparently genuine response to seeing those people rounded up like cattle.

You seem to think he didn't see the tenants as human...although his statement contradicts that view.

Vive le difference. MKJ

[NorthernSpy]

168. God help a trusting soul

Thus, his apparently genuine response to seeing those people rounded up like cattle.

You seem to think he didn't see the tenants as human...although his statement contradicts that view.

Like I told someone else:

Hell hath no fury like a vested interest masquerading as a moral principle.

(Dorothy Parker)

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

247. I can offer no further argument in the face of your belief that all

people are uncaring and cynical.

MKJ

[lumberjack_jeff]

250. Gives "let my people go" a different meaning n/t

[cornermouse]

10. That which you seem to overlooked on the second page of said article...

"The poultry plant has limped along with half its normal workforce. Crider increased its starting wages by $1 an hour to help recruit new workers.

Stacie Bell, 23, started work canning chicken at Crider a week ago. She said the pay, $7.75 an hour, led her to leave her $5.60-an-hour job as a Wal-Mart cashier in nearby Statesboro. Still, Bell said she felt bad about the raids."

Looks like someone has been able to take a step up to a better paying job...

[Keefer]

11. Let's hope...

...many more follow. THAT'S good news. :)

[cornermouse]

17. If he has to offer real wages, they probably will.

Reality is that unless we start sending these CEOs and owners to prison, they'll just "find" more illegals given a little time.

[proud2BlibKansan]

12. Not everyone is benefiting

At least one child, born a U.S. citizen, was left behind by his Mexican parents: 2-year-old Victor Perez-Lopez. The toddler's mother, Rosa Lopez, left her son with Julie Rodas when the raids began and fled the state. The boy's father was deported to Mexico.

"When his momma brought this baby here and left him, tears rolled down her face and mine too," Rodas said. "She said, `Julie, will you please take care of my son because I have no money, no way of paying rent?"'

For five years, Rodas has made a living watching the children of workers at the Crider Inc. poultry plant, where the vast majority of employees were Mexican immigrants. She learned Spanish, and considered many immigrants among her closest friends. She threw parties for their children's birthdays and baptisms.

The only child in Rodas' care now, besides her own son, is Victor. Her customers have disappeared.

[cornermouse]

16. I'll take a moment here to point out that I never left

my 2 year old child with someone else for more than 3 or 4 hours.

She was being chased by legal authorities, not the Mafia or hitmen.

[proud2BlibKansan]

18. Did you ever have to work for slave wages to pay the rent?

Did it ever take every penny you had to put food on the table - not for a short time, but for YEARS?

I have never been in that situation. I have been poor but never so poor I couldn't feed my kids or pay my rent.

So instead of condemning this woman, I feel sorry for her. I can't even imagine how difficult it must have been to make the decision to leave her child. So I count my blessings and donate what time and money I have to help people like her.

It's called empathy. You ought to try it sometime.

[cornermouse]

21. Stacie was earning $5.60 at McDonalds

Where's your empathy?

And in answer to your earlier question... I washed clothes including diapers by hand in the bathtub for months. I didn't have enough money to run a washing machine at the laundromat. So yes, I do know what it is to do without.

In addition: I have admired your activism in K.C. But this is an issue that we will not agree upon. Rancor and personal attacks diminish you and your cause.

[proud2BlibKansan]

28. I don't see how asking you to empathize with a human being

in a desperate situation is a personal attack.

Immigrants are not the enemy. Sorry you can't agree with that stance.

[-..__...]

51. Does that include...

those "lined up to buy food, beer and cigarettes just weeks ago"?

"Did it ever take every penny you had to put food on the table - not for a short time, but for YEARS?"

[acmavm]

61. Read the statistics on poverty in this country. Read the statistics on

the homeless. The uninsured. The hungry. The ill. The mentally ill.

Then tell me we need to take on some other country's burden.

That's not only unintelligent, it borders on the insane.

[Jcrowley]

67. The problem is NAFTA

and American corporations raping other people's lands. If these elements disappear then migrants would be able to stay where they would like to in the first place.

Let's be honest here, if we're going to close the borders that means it must be total. No more goods coming from The South if the folks aren't allowed to follow what was theirs in the first place. To say the bananas can come over and not the folks who live in those same places as those bananas, coffee etc. come from is hypocritical.

There are no "illegal" humans.

[acmavm]

69. Bananas and people should have the same rights to cross borders?

That's really funny.

Thanks!

[rockymountaindem]

71. Are you saying there was no poverty in Latin America prior to 1993?

There was no illegal immigration into the US from Latin America prior to 1993? Please...

And what's this about "folks following what's theirs"? Once they sell it to another country, that's it. That's the whole transaction. Payment for a can of coffee or a bunch of bananas doesn't come with a visa. This debate is confusing enough without conflating labor and capital.

[Jcrowley]

108. No

Are you saying these lands being colonized by el Norte', NAFTA just being a further codification of this process, didn't create millions of victims of which now the anti-immigration zealots (mostly right-wingers but not all) are blaming and pointing fingers.

The debate isn't confusing at all it is straightforward brown-skinned people are being pushed off their lands, an ongoing process, and those who are doing the pushing are saying "you can't come here, this land is our land and so is yours."

[countryjake]

118. Exactly! Exploitation of labor by our very own government...

since time immemorial! Just like they've beaten down the unions, so they can exploit labor, now they are once again pitting worker against worker, dividing those who sell their sweat and blood to earn a pittance in this mighty economy of ours.

The right-wing knows that if we unite as the tremendous force we truly are, they can no longer force wages down to the lowest possible dribble; if we see ALL workers in this country as our brothers in arms, no matter what the color of their skin, language, or country of origin, then, and only then, the conditions in the miserable degrading workplaces will be raised up, wages will become livable, and selling ourselves will earn us the respect that every worker on this planet deserves!

Organizing against these racist policies is the only answer.

[Breeze54]

100. Yes, I have done all of the above.

"Did it ever take every penny you had to put food on the table - not for a short time, but for YEARS?"

And I still am....

Where's your sympathy for me? :shrug:

Employment in the information super sector was essentially unchanged (-100)
at 87,800. Information jobs are up 200 since August 2005 as a strong over the year job increase
of 800 or 3.8 percent in software publishing was offset by a decline of 800 or 3.7 percent in newspaper and periodical publishing.
Information jobs are down 29,200 or 25.0 percent from its January 2001 peak of 117,000.

Construction employment was down 800 in August after increasing by 600 in July.
Employment has fallen in five of the last seven months, resulting in a 2,500 net job loss
since January. However, with the rapid job increase in late 2005, construction employment
at 142,000 is still up 2,100 or 1.5 percent over the past year.

After rising for four consecutive months and posting a 1,200 job gain in July,
manufacturing employment fell by 1,100 in August Manufacturing employment
is down 104,100 jobs, or 25.4 percent, since reaching 410,400 in July 2000.

The number of employed Massachusetts residents decreased by 1,300 in August to 3,207,400,
while the number of Massachusetts unemployed increased by 4,300 to 163,500.
The labor force (the sum of the employed and the unemployed) was up 3,000 over the month
to 3,370,900 and 7,200 from one year ago.

Financial activities lost 800 jobs in August, nearly offsetting the 900 job gain in July

Trade, transportation, and utilities employment was up by 200 in August, the first monthly
increase since April.

Employment is down 2,000 from one year ago to 568,100

*cough* *cough*

BUT.... professional's seem to be doing quite well ... :sarcasm:

Education and health services added 2,200 new jobs in August, its largest one month increase since November 2002.

Employment in professional, scientific, and business services increased by 300 in August to 470,000. This super sector has recorded solid job gains of 3,200 over the past three months. Over the month gains occurred in computer systems design services and architectural and engineering services. Over the year, employment is up 8,900 or 1.9 percent, the highest annual growth rate and tied for the largest net job increase of any industry super sector. Nearly all the net over the year growth occurred in the professional, scientific, and technical segment, with strong job growth recorded in architectural and engineering services (+5.5 percent), management, scientific, and technical consulting services (+4.3 percent), scientific research and development (+4.1 percent) and computer systems design services (+2.7 percent). This overall super sector has added 31,500 jobs since bottoming out in June 2003, but employment is still off 37,500 or 7.4 percent from its January 2001 peak of 507,500.

http://lmi2.detma.org/lmi/News_release_state.asp

I worked in Info. Tech. and a lot of those jobs went to unemployed engineer's and companies gave techs the big boot!
:grr:

[FILAM23]

20. Thats why that law needs to be changed

if Mommy and Daddy are illegal then the children should be
considered illegal as well. In other words children born
in the US have the same status as their parents.

[cornermouse]

24. I don't agree with that.

If they're born here, they're citizens. That's the way it should be.

[datasuspect]

27. that is the most absurd thing i have heard today on the internet

but it is still early.

[proud2BlibKansan]

39. She left her child because she could no longer afford to take care of him

Changing this particular law would do nothing to help (or hurt) this woman.

[Cobalt Violet]

40. $4,472 dollars more a year.

That's real money. Still to low but $2.15 an hour more can really improve the quality of life for a struggling working person.

[sufrommich]

42. It's $372. a month

In a depressed area like that,potentially enough to rent a house or apartment,or buy a very decent car, or pay for child care or health insurance,groceries,gas or heat.Hardly irrelevant in the grand scheme of things.You're right...real money and a step up.

[Telly Savalas]

44. But it's still a shitty paying job.

The effect of all this was to perhaps create some jobs for Americans which pay about $16K a year. If Bush were to announce a program to create $16K/year jobs, would you applaud him? Certainly for somebody making $12K a year it's an improvement, but any economic program whose goal is to generate jobs which don't pay a living wage is laughably unambitious.

With regards to labor issues, immigration is a red herring. The exploitative low wages are a market failure which need to be redressed by the implementation and strict enforcement of living wage laws and other such measures.

[rockymountaindem]

60. No way!

I thought these were the kinds of jobs "American's wouldn't do"!!!

Wrong. These are the kinds of jobs Americans won't do for starvation wages, but we will do what we have to if it will provide a decent living. Look, I don't want to make myself into someone I'm not. I'm the son of a middle-class (arguable upper-middle class) professional, who has never had to worry about food, housing etc. I count myself very fortunate in that regard. But I like to think that this is not just a country of suburbs and mini-malls. This is also a country of lumberjacks, firemen, police officers and crop-duster pilots. All those are dangerous jobs, but Americans line up to do them because they pay a decent wage. If Americans are willing to risk life and limb as long as it pays well, I'm sure we're also willing to take on a job at the chicken cannery as well, as Ms. Bell proves.

Has anyone else seen the TV show "The Deadliest Catch"? That has given me a lot of appreciation for the working man (and woman). Here we see people working in the most miserable conditions imaginable, risking death by drowning in the Bering Sea, and dismemberment by their own equipment, and why? I saw some of them get a $11,000 check for less than a week of operations. I'm very impressed by those crabbers, to say the least.

[OzarkDem]

142. Agree, better to let US workers have the jobs

rather than illegal aliens willing to work for slave wages.

I'm willing to pay a little more for chicken if it means a US worker has a decent paying job.

[IdaBriggs]

14. Kicking & Recommending. The price of Ignorance... nt

[NorthernSpy]

137. actually, it's the price of breaking the law

If you break into someone else's country, you knowingly assume the risk of getting tossed out. It's kind of sad when that happens, but it's not wrong for Americans to enforce their immigration laws.

But if you are an American who has staked the future of your business on the continued presence of people who have illegally broken into your country, and your business fails when the illegals are abruptly tossed out, then you have merely gotten what you deserve. No tears from me.


:nopity:

[FILAM23]

22. It is a start in the right direction,

needs to happen on a daily basis all across the country.

[Cleita]

45. So not getting those chickens to market is okay with you?

I suppose when you start paying more for chicken because most of it didn't make it to market it's fine and dandy with you. Watch for this to happen across the board on your food bill if the INS keeps up these sweeps across the nation. Then you guys will whine about that.

How come none of you "send them back across the border" types haven't thought that making them legal and forcing employers to follow the law according to wages and work place standards could be a solution. Also, if these businesses suffer from a shortage of workers from across the border, they will have to get them from someplace else, maybe Africa.

Nothing will change because you guys will complain about those workers too. Xenophobia really is the issue here. Making them legal would solve the real problem, not the imagined problem that the RW is baiting you with to get you to vote against your best interests.

[sufrommich]

49. It would be fine and dandy

with me to pay higher costs if it means another American doesn't have to try to survive on slave wages.That's what being a Democrat is about as far as I'm concerned.We are the party of labor,are we not?Why would businesses suffer from a shortage of workers if illegal immigration was stopped?If there are not enough American workers for the jobs here,why not raise the number of legal immigrants to make up the difference?

[Cleita]

50. You said:

Why would businesses suffer from a shortage of workers if illegal immigration was stopped?If there are not enough American workers for the jobs here,why not raise the number of legal immigrants to make up the difference?.

This is my point exactly. If the immigrants can come in legally, then the employers couldn't hire them for less than the standard fair wage in the industry. This way fewer of them would be hired because American workers would get the jobs first and the immigrants could be hired to fill in as needed.

Immigration sweeps historically have had economic downsides. Short term, bring in the immigrants we need legally. This means we have to raise the quotas. Long term we have to get a responsible government in Washington who can come up with a solution with Mexico and other nations to put their economies in order so that the workers can stay home and work there.

[cornermouse]

62. self delete

[acmavm]

63. Make them legal? Oh right, and then what do we do with all those who

are here on temporary visas? The ones who did it LEGALLY?

Or do we just reward those that did it the illegal way?

[Cleita]

66. I'm sure once the pols get all their little pointed heads together,

it can't be that hard to come up with an equitable solution. The main thing is that they can't give into the demands of those whose real agenda is that they don't want people who speak Spanish in their town. Once they remove that obstacle then they can move on to something that will work for everyone.

[acmavm]

70. Why is it that you people cannot or will not get it through your heads

that it is just not 'Spanish' speaking people. Although they are the majority of the lawbreakers?

What part of illegal immigration, operative word illegal, is beyond so many's people's capabilities here?

Nice try, no cigar.

[Cleita]

75. Why is it that you people cannot or will not get in through your

heads that this IS the issue. If you can tell me that you don't mind Spanish being spoken in your town by everyone who is legal and American then maybe you have a point. But I don't think you can say that honestly. Tell me that you can say it honestly.

There are towns in New Mexico and California that Spanish is spoken as a primary language and English is secondary. Most of the inhabitants are born Americans of Mexican or Native American heritage. Yet the European Americans complain about that. So it is the language.

[acmavm]

79. Why the hell would Americans in Nebraska be speaking Spanish as

a first language? Are you that disingenuous? Or is it that you're just so desperate to toss around the 'racist' accusation (because sadly that's all you've got) that you'll say anything regardless of how unrelated and irrelevant to the subject at hand your argument is?

[Cleita]

92. Yes, but what if they wanted to, if ethnicity and language weren't an

issue? If the background of the workers wasn't the issue, I wouldn't be hearing all this crap about them not speaking English. It's not a hard concept to understand. Many immigrants from the Middle East, both legal and illegal are also being subjected to this kind of profiling, which has nothing to do with their status.

When I left my home town of Santa Monica, the neighborhood I lived in had turned into a Persian neighborhood, even the businesses. The signs were in farsi first and English second. I started hearing the same snarking from the few Americans still living in the neighborhood about the language that was spoken and that they were living crowded into the apartments and they were unhygenic, blah, blah, etc..

These people were legal refugees that were granted entrance into the united states, and yes it was ahead of those people who were waiting in line. So none of these arguments are the real reason Americans don't want immigrants in their town.

[acmavm]

109. Point out to me where anyone here in this thread said a word

about 'Spanish'. Show me here where Hispanics have been singled out.

[EFerrari]

116. Um, the OP? Or, didn't you read the OP?

lol

[acmavm]

132. Of course. It says that Georgia has one of the largest populations of

Hispanic immigrants in the country. It says NOTHING about people speaking Spanish although I suppose if you're really desperate for an excuse you can say it's all because these people speak Spanish.

Here's something else you can find if you read that article:

What do you think of immigration raid?
I support it 74%
I don't support it 26%
Total Votes: 163,278

You're on the losing side with this one.

[EFerrari]

138. Lol! You're right. I'm desparate to gain the approval of the

racists in Georgia!

:rofl:

[acmavm]

144. Seriously, do you really think that poll consists of the opinions of

only Georgians? Really, is that what you think?

Your pretty fast and loose with the word racist. But that's been pointed out to you before, on this thread and on others. See, some people might think you suffer from a form of racism yourself. Some perverse form that makes it impossible for you to see the unfairness of condemning people born in this country to poverty or joblessness just so you can wallow in a fake sense of whatever it is you justify your animus against American workers. As long as you can live with yourself, fine. Just don't expect everyone else to go down that road with you. At least not the vast majority of the people in this country. We aren't that deluded.

[EFerrari]

146. What crap. The right has always pitted people of color against

each other. They need it to win elections or at very least, to cover their election manipulation.

Lastima. We're already here. It doesn't matter if you personally round up every undocumented worker in America. It's too late!

:rofl:

[acmavm]

148. Last time I'll answer you. This isn't the right, it's the left too. And th

middle. The majority are all anti illegal. And we may not be as 'there' as you think.

edit: You never did answer as to whether or not you really thought those votes were all anti-illegal immigration supporters in Georgia. I suspect that you did.

[EFerrari]

151. Yes, there are plenty of racists on the left, too.

lol

[Cleita]

123. I said it and you can scroll up to the post I said it in.

The fact that everyone is up in arms about it proves my point. I hit a nerve with the truth. The OP was referring to hispanics and no one else. It doesn't matter if I said Spanish speaking people or hispanics, they mean the same thing.

[acmavm]

126. I didn't mean yourself.

[Cleita]

128. Read the rest of my post that I edited evidently while you

were answering it.

[Name removed]

76. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sufrommich]

77. The amount of people

who want illegal immigration stopped for racist reasons compared to the amount who will not sit back and watch their pay go from $18.00 an hour to $8.00 because of it is miniscule,no matter how much you try to stop any debate on the subject by claiming otherwise. I don't understand how it helps us as democrats to make that judgement call and retain our right to call ourselves the party of the working people in this country.Calling people who ARE being affected by illegal immigration "racists"won't stop them from being concerned,it will however,cause them to wonder if the Democratic party still speaks for them.Believe me,the republicans understand that and encourage you to carry on.

[FILAM23]

64. I am all for increased legal immigration

I am totally against awarding illegal activity by making
those who chose to break/ignore our laws head of the line privileges.
And if my chickens, vegetables, fruit, etc cost a little more to enforce
the law then so be it..
It amazes me the number of people who want to reward law breakers.

[Cleita]

68. You really don't get why your food will cost more.

It will be because it will be lying in the fields unpicked or in the slaughter houses unpackaged. This means perfectly good food will rot and the farmer or rancher, in order to make ends meet, has to charge more. Yet it will drive many of them into bankruptcy. This is not a cool way to solve a problem, if there ever really was a problem.

[sufrommich]

78. No,it will be

picked and packaged by people making a decent wage.

[Cleita]

89. Yes, and those people will become legal immigrants because

they are needed. Making them legal will force the employers to pay a fair wage. More Americans will to to work for them and fewer immigrants will work for those companies, but there will be immigrants because there are not enough Americans to cover all the jobs, no matter how willing they are to work especially during harvests when the need of workers rises.

[High Plains]

85. Sometimes the law is an ass. This is one of those cases.

What we need is to regularize these workers. Give them work visas so they have the same rights as any other workers.

Any time you have a law that creates millions of "criminals," you probably need to look at that law again.

[Cleita]

93. Finally, a reasonable voice, Thanks for putting this in

simple terms that anyone with an open mind should be able to understand.

[Greyhound]

95. In case it has escaped your notice, this was done and the results

are more and more coming in. There is no shortage of suitable workers in the area, in fact, before the deluge of illegals into this area, the poultry "farms" were the only major source of employment there. The illegals deliver a double whammy to working-class Americans by driving down wages and forcing citizens into what few social programs remain.

Please don't bleed too much for the poor corporation that needs to get those chickens to market, now they have to hire back all those citizens they laid off to accommodate the new, cheaper, workers. BTW, the price of chicken was raised after they cut their payroll and benefits.

[Cleita]

112. So, you agree that bringing the extra workers here legally

to work to get the food to market is necessary. That way the corporations will be forced to pay everyone a fair wage. There will be fewer jobs availabe for immigrants but they will all be on a level playing field. To not do so is inviting the problems existing today.

The immigrants will keep coming in without work permits. The employers will hire them for less and everyone else will be without jobs. There really is a simple solution from our side of the border.

A long term solution would be for our government to pressure Mexico and other Latin American nations who starve their working class to change that so that the worker will want to stay in the country of their origin. But in the meantime a more enlightened policy is needed on our side.

[tyedyeto]

29. Nowhere in the article did they say the employers were fined...

for hiring undocumented workers. If they truly wanted to stop people from working here, they would be levying fines to these employers.

[slaveplanet]

80. hmm

Crider increased its starting wages by $1 an hour to help recruit new workers.

Stacie Bell, 23, started work canning chicken at Crider a week ago. She said the pay, $7.75 an hour, led her to leave her $5.60-an-hour job as a Wal-Mart cashier in nearby Statesboro.


Bottom line, raise the pay and legal workers will come to fill the void.
and people will resume dumping even more money into the convenience stores come lunch time, This isn't rocket science.

[EFerrari]

81. It isn't rocket science. This issue is designed to stir up

the right wing nutcases who freak out when they spot a brown person.

[Greyhound]

97. What color do you think the majority of people the illegals replaced

were? Or do you limit your advocacy to people that are just lighter brown and don't speak english?

[EFerrari]

102. I think I will just let you reread you own post. n/t

[Greyhound]

107. I'm sure this makes sense in your mind, but those of us that don't live

there might need a little help.

[EFerrari]

110. Why is it that all you nationalists have only personal attacks

when you are pressed?

Geezus.

[Greyhound]

117. You pressed nothing and made no point. I merely pointed out that

in this case it is primarily brown people that were hurt by the deluge of illegal immigration, that is just a fact. BTW have you ever been to the rural south?

Game's coming on, BBL.

[EFerrari]

120. Economy of lack. n/t

[Rosemary2205]

83. So did the owner/s of the poultry plant get arrested??

the employer who hired illegals is the criminal.

[Jed Dilligan]

91. What gets me is

why do people think they would get something out of kicking the Mexicans out?

What on earth could possibly make them think a big crackdown could make things better for anyone?

What flavor of Kool-Aid makes them think that deporting Mexicans will make wages rise?

[EFerrari]

94. It's scapegoating at its finest, n/.t

[sufrommich]

99. Do you imagine

the illegal immigrants working in the building trades are making the same wage and benefits of the trade union workers they've displaced?

[Jed Dilligan]

101. And once they're gone,

Poof! The union magically reappears?

Bullshit. Conditions won't change. Maybe you can rebuild the union over time. But the 2 million goons you hired to deport all the illegals will need something to do, like union-busting. So where does that leave you?

If you're really pro-union you should be thinking about how to include, rather than exclude, working people.

[EFerrari]

103. Exactly. And, it works. It's working in Los Angeles right now.

Nothing like cutting yourself off from your natural allies.

[sufrommich]

113. Do you understand how trade unions work?

You walk into your local,you sign the book,you're sent to an employer who has contacted the union hall with all the pertinent info(how many workers needed,for what period of time,location of workplace).The problem isn't that the unions have "disappeared,it's that the employees are making less and less calls to the union hall.Your argument seems to reinforce what others have said on this board,that the people who argue most strenuously in favor of illegal immigration are the ones least likely affected by it.

[EFerrari]

115. Two union household here. Next?

- -

[sufrommich]

127. Next what??

You're agreeing with a poster who seems to think that trade unions have disapeared,so what's your point?

[EFerrari]

136. To quote you:

"Your argument seems to reinforce what others have said on this board,that the people who argue most strenuously in favor of illegal immigration are the ones least likely affected by it."

And, that would be a big "no". Two unions in my home.

[sufrommich]

141. My original post

was to the person making the lame argument that "the union would take years to rebuild itself".You agreed with the poster and said it's happening in California right now(with no explanation of "what" exactly is happening")I asked if he understood the way trade unions work,because most of the jobs being taken by illegal immigrants were in the trades.That's what I meant by the majority of posters not being in the trades and having no personal experience.Are you in a trade union?If so,I can't believe you wouldn't understand they way jobs are doled out.

[EFerrari]

147. In Southern California, trade unions are making common cause

with undocumented workers. Advantage to documented, English speaking workers.

It really isn't rocket science.

[Jed Dilligan]

122. Do you mean less employers

are contacting the union hall?

[sufrommich]

130. Yes,it won't let me edit now.

I didn't even notice,thanks.

[Jed Dilligan]

133. I might be misunderstanding, still,

but I don't see how deporting illegals is a better solution to this problem than unionizing them.

[sufrommich]

150. The problem is

we've tried the amnesty thing before,it did'nt work.The underlying problem isn't in who or how many we can unionize,it's all for nothing if the next wave of illegal immigration undercuts the union workers.It can't spiral like that forever,we aren't a bottomless well of economic opportunities.Reasoned immigration matches the number of immigrants to the amount of opportunity that can be expected in this country without it doing serious damage to the citizens already here.

[EFerrari]

155. You have no evidence to support the conclusions you're drawing.

And when you reflect on them, you'll see that it's just more propaganda that we take in without thinking.

My people are huge team players. If Labor made a serious attempt to unionize them, Labor would be invigorated for another generation.

[Jed Dilligan]

157. I don't buy it, mainly because

we aren't exporting anything to speak of. We're importing manufactured goods. In a service and consumer economy the growth of opportunities comes only from the growth of the population. What else is increasing in value? The job sector you mentioned, construction, clearly depends on growing population for its growth. There are a lot of problems with population growth, but loss of economic opportunity isn't one of them. If the newcomers were getting hired in, say, alternative-fuel industries, instead of building more new homes over watersheds, we might all end up better off.

I'm not for totally open borders, but I'm against deporting people who are here. I'd like to see everyone paid a living wage no matter where they were born. I don't want to see another "War on" that empowers law enforcement while impoverishing everyone else.

[EFerrari]

158. The Republicans must, read *must* stir up this hatred in order

to distract their base.

It's really very simple. What concerns me is that so many DUers buy into this fake crisis without seeing that they are being manipulated.

[EFerrari]

153. it's not. Unionizing undocumented workers strengthens Labor.

It aggregates resources.

[countryjake]

156. And the UFCW in that potting plant has now been smashed!

I'd like a poll on how many who see the immigrants as our enemy also think Unions are bad for our economy, lol!

Any halfwit with a clue can see that anyone who works in this country deserves to be treated with decency and respect, that's why the Unions are on the side of the undocumented workers, marching with them, fighting for them, and trying to be heard above the roar of the right-wingnut goons, who claim workers are the problem.

[EFerrari]

159. People really don't understand that blaming any worker hurts all workers.

[countryjake]

163. I marched with Farrah & Levi-Strauss workers back in the 70s...

they traveled cross-country to support our measly little strike at an electronics sweatshop, trying desperately for Union recognition and I don't believe I've ever felt such solidarity with other women workers as I did at that time. All were either first or second generation immigrants, some of them didn't even speak English, but they walked our picket line with us and helped us organize a city-wide march, which, with that publicity, brought our six-month battle to a quick end...a victory for women making below two bucks an hour, in the worst conditions one can imagine.

That was the time when the goons talked about unions forcing our shops to runaway, that demanding our rights was bad for working people, and asking to earn a livable wage would only force the plants to move South or overseas. It was the beginning of the outsourcing of all our industry and workers were blamed for that, just as they are being used as scapegoats for the depression of wages, now.

It really is a tough nut to crack with so many of our population these days feeling as much hatred for unions as they do for those they think are "stealing" their jobs. Most of the young people just do not understand basic union philosophy and fall into that same trap that, back then, blamed the workers themselves for the loss of their plants and the entire plot of the runaway shop.

Workers united will never be defeated...it worked back then and will always be true!

(Damn, Beth, as fast as I type out a response to you, the entire thread is disappeared...why is that, I wonder? My Tom Joad line is gone now, too! Did you see that? What was wrong with that discussion?)

It's getting too hard to be heard above all of this anti-labor crap!

[EFerrari]

164. I get very frustrated with people when I should just stay calm

and ask questions.

Too many people are buying into this faked crisis, this propaganda war that seeks to divide us all.

This is, as you say, at bottom anti Labor cr@P!

[countryjake]

166. Right! Look at all those who think a livable wage will magically appear...

if only Murikans have all the jobs! Its as tho the struggle for rights of workers in this country never ever happened, at all. That company union is gonna just hand over their profits, clean up the place, and provide benefits, cause the brown people are gone! ROTFLMAO!

Nothing, absolutely nothing, was ever simply handed to any laborer in this nation, without a mighty struggle. Dems have been trying to get a clean and clear minimum wage increase, with no strings attached, for almost a decade now and these same people who swear that immigrants are depressing wages are the ones who have been blocking and skewing every single bill that would actually raise wages for all.

[Jcrowley]

125. Let me see if I've got this straight

"We" stole half of Mexico by armed force -- the nice parts with rich deposits of gold and silver (and, as it turned out, oil -- though "we" didn't actually recognize that at the time.)

"We" made sure that "our" influence over Latin America was such that wealth would be steadily transferred from their countries to ours. "We" sent the Marines to Nicaragua, Haiti, & Guatemala often enough to insure that life in those countries would be a permanent living hell for most of the inhabitants. "We" imposed military dictatorships in almost every Central & South American country, stunting the aspirations of their people, & imposing conditions from which some of those countries will never recover. (So if some of the people want to escape from the living conditions in those countries, "we" had very much to do with creating those conditions.)

Interestingly, "we" started doing all this at the same time that "we" were exterminating the indigenous people here, AND using black slaves from Africa. What a loveable, righteous people "we" are, here in the "Land of the Free"!!

To read between the lines of today's American media treatment of the issue, the real "controversy" today is not between decent humane treatment for immigrants; and harassment by racists, vigilantes, and police. It's between two factions of rightwing opinion: should immigrants be exploited for their cheap labor (and their delightful inability to defend themselves), or should racism and xenophobia be pandered to, by encouraging nutcases like the Minutemen, and other "red blooded Amurrikans" who think it's exciting to organize mobs to defend white supremacy? This is a serious "issue" for people like Bush, who is doubtless torn, & genuinely sympathetic to both sides.

[EFerrari]

134. Lol! We have a winner, folks!

:rofl:

[sufrommich]

135. Well,thanks for pointing

out to those of us who believed we were against illegal immigration that our motives can only be evil and racist.Seems you have the last word.Debate over.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

143. If you're against illegal immigration, doesn't that mean you're against

the underlying causes, which create a circumstance of desperate people looking for honest work?

MKJ

edited to add: I would think you're in more agreement than disagreement with the post to which you were responding.

[NorthernSpy]

171. America has been bad; let's throw American workers to the wolves...

... to make it better.

:eyes:


Wages at the chicken plant are finally on the rise now that the illegals have been expelled. American workers will finally have a few more dollars in their pockets. And yet the open-borders "humanitarians" are in mourning.


Yes, there ARE fundamentally opposed interests at work here. And I know whose side I'm on.

[EFerrari]

173. And we know whose side you're on, too.

Today, you're willing to "expel" those brown guys. Who will you turn against tomorrow?

Thanks for the heads up.

[pinto]

140. A brief, general reminder, please take a look:

Discussion Forum Rules
These are the basic rules.

For a detailed explanation of how we enforce these rules, please click here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/forums/rules_detailed.html

3.Civility: Treat other members with respect. Do not post personal attacks against other members of this discussion forum.

4. Content: Do not post messages that are inflammatory, extreme, divisive, incoherent, or otherwise inappropriate. Do not engage in anti-social, disruptive, or trolling behavior. Do not post broad-brush, bigoted statements. The moderators and administrators work very hard to enforce some minimal standards regarding what content is appropriate. But please remember that this is a large and diverse community that includes a broad range of opinion. People who are easily offended, or who are not accustomed to having their opinions (including deeply personal convictions) challenged may not feel entirely comfortable here. A thick skin is necessary to participate on this or any other discussion forum.

Thanks.

[w4rma]

167. Good. Laws should be enforced not sidestepped. Notice the wages went up.

Notice that Americans accepted the work once it began to pay competitive wages.

[EFerrari]

169. Because only white people should be paid a living wage?

You guys really don't get how power uses workers against workers.

[w4rma]

174. You think Americans are only "white people"? You are the one ignorant

about how power uses illegal workers to bust unions and drive down wages.

[Sam Odom]

179. Good for you

w4rma, I too I'm shocked, SHOCKED I tell you, :) at the ignorance of some DUers.

[w4rma]

180. Thanks. (nt)

[EFerrari]

187. You're gonna be a hellava lot more shocked when those

"ignorant" DUers change the face of this country.

lol

[w4rma]

198. By supporting breaking the law? By supporting an issue a huge majority

of Americans oppose (ignoring lawbreakers who come into America for cheap labor)? By supporting a group of people who are unable to vote or otherwise positively contribute to a political cause within America?

[EFerrari]

202. If we go for the "law and order" vote, we all need to buy more sheets!

lol

[w4rma]

204. Bullcrap. You are the one taking the racist/exploitive side on this issue.

It is racist, imho, to promote an environment that forces "non-white people" to break the law to come to America to work for wages that won't support an American family.

I will not support exploiting folks, of any ethnicity, for cheap labor.

[EFerrari]

209. What you don't understand is, not even undocumented workers

favor illegal immigration. Are you kidding? They are ripped off left and right and have no recourse to the law at all.

Please. Get a clue.

[w4rma]

213. You get a clue. Do you really think they like running from the police?

They would rather be able to stay in their own nation and make good money. Of course "free" trade has destroyed the economy south of the border by widening the gap between the wealthy and the poor.

[EFerrari]

230. There you go. n/t

[EFerrari]

184. No such. Wages aren't set by undocumented workers.

But Republicans win elections evey time this false flag is raised.

Carry on, at your peril.

[w4rma]

192. Wages aren't "set" by any type of laborer, except the upper management. nt

[EFerrari]

197. No kidding. And you have no evidence whatsoever that

undocumented workers bring wages down except Rethug talking points.

Duh.

[w4rma]

200. "…increased its starting wages by $1 an hour to help recruit new workers."

http://articles.news.aol.com/news/_a/immigration-raid-cripples-georgia-town/20060915205109990001

Proof.

Game. Set. Match.

This is how the laws of supply and demand work. This is how the laws of competition work.

[EFerrari]

206. No, that's the way workers are manipulated.

Just wait.

lol

[w4rma]

216. Don't laugh. This is a serious situation that harms most Americans. (nt)

[EFerrari]

235. That's what the propaganda would have you believe.

What real evidence you have that this is true?

You know, facts are a good thing.

[w4rma]

239. More than 10% of this town's population were not supposed to be there.

And there are many other places in America like this.

I promise you that any propaganda from the powerful will be used to cover up any illegal immigration problem, not expose it. The money is in the cheap labor, not in enforcing laws against things that help promote more cheap labor.

[EFerrari]

242. Of course. And that's why we need a living wage.

Don't be distracted.

[countryjake]

170. Since when is little over fifteen thousand a year a competitive wage?

[w4rma]

177. I didn't say a "living wage", but apparently it's competitive since

folks are legally accepting the jobs at that wage.

Obviously there is a lot of room for improvement, but both "free" trade *and* illegal working schemes must be taken care of for the wages to be where they should be.

[countryjake]

181. What illegal working schemes? Rounding up union members & deporting them?

The UFCW fought hard to get the union into that plant a couple of years ago, precisely to increase the chances of improvement for its workers...ALL of its workers. So now the government has carted them all away and the union has been stripped of its effectiveness. Tell me, how does that make things better for anyone who works there?

These anti-labor arguments ignore the history of workers in this country...nothing was ever handed to us without a real fight! I'm sure the new-hires at that plant are saying, "Gee, what a fine place to work, I'm soooo thankful the company opted to give us an extra dollar an hour..."

[w4rma]

185. Is the union still there and going strong? Yes. Are union workers now

making more than they were? Yes. Are the workers at the plant no longer breaking the law? For the vast majority: Yes.

Also, certain corrupt people inside of government no longer have the threat of cracking down on the illegal workers to force the plant owners to do things they don't want to do or to make "contributions" to people they don't want to support.

[countryjake]

211. Whatever makes you think that? The union was weakened back in June...

when most of those who belonged were forced to "present papers" documenting their citizenship and as a result, quit.

Who gives a shit if the workers are breaking the law, when the companies who run such places consistently are allowed to overwork, underpay, and maintain poor work conditions? With the right to work laws, nobody has to support union membership anymore. The union in that plant is non-existent now, with the "arrest" of its membership.

The corruption lies in our government usurping the rights of due process and failing to respect the civil liberties of anyone who works in this country. Allowing such actions to be used on any sector of our population is denying workplace rights and encouraging human rights offenses against us all.

Allowing the mistreatment of one group in any workplace will inevitably lead to the mistreatment of all workers!

[w4rma]

218. If the workers were American to begin with then that tactic wouldn't

have been available to the union busters.

[countryjake]

225. But yet you're saying that busting the union in that plant is a good thing

simply because they weren't citizens? Your logic escapes me. Seems to me that if you cared about that particular workplace, you'd believe that having it unionized would be seen as a progressive move, in the desire to see improvements made there, overall.

How does dragging out any worker from their job of choice improve the rights of workers in this country?

[w4rma]

231. No. I'm saying that a union comprised of illegals won't work because

this tactic is *always* available to management. The threat of deportation is always hanging over the head of everyone who is in this country illegally.

[countryjake]

245. Exactly the reason they should be given the chance of citizenship!

See how easy it was to arrive at the conclusion that most labor unions in this country have been trying to drive home for the past forty years!

Fighting for equality in this nation has never succeeded when discrimination against one sector is seen as acceptable.

Fighting for the rights of workers must include all of those who sell their labor for a living; excluding and putting qualifications on any one group only plays directly into the hands of those who profit from our sweat and blood!

Workers, united, can never be defeated! Holds true in a tiny little chicken potting plant in Georgia just as it does for every working class American!

Corrupting the struggles of the American worker to unite as a force to be reckoned with is what this "immigration issue" is all about...it's proven by our history, in every fight for worker's rights that has ever transpired here...divide and subdue is the game, and anyone who thinks otherwise is enabling those who are doing it!

[Raydawg1234]

183. Illegal Immigrant = Scab

[EFerrari]

186. No, undocumented worker = worker.

Get a clue. Stop turning on your naturual allies.

Oh, but Faux News tells me to scream and shout! :sarcasm:

[Sam Odom]

189. What is it about " ILLEGAL " you dont understand ? n/t

N/T

[EFerrari]

191. What is it about Republican talking points that you don't understand?

'Way to go, progressive.

[Raydawg1234]

195. Oh so we are all supposed to think and act the same way.

nothing fascist about that. :sarcasm:

[EFerrari]

203. This is about social justice, not about fascism.

Nice straw man.

[Sam Odom]

199. What you dont understand - IMHO

This pro-illegal stand many Dems take is a loser. I live in SoCal and I see it.

[EFerrari]

205. That's just silly. No one is 'pro" illegal immigration in the same way

no one is "pro" abortion. Geezus.

[Name removed]

190. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[EFerrari]

194. So, you've replied with two "fuck yous".

Good job.

And you believe that bull.

Good job.

[Raydawg1234]

196. yeah I was angry, but respond to my questions

Don't just assume that because people don't agree with you they watch fox news

[EFerrari]

201. The very smartest thing Labor could do is to unionize

undocumented workers.

Because BushCo will NEVER kick them out. Are you kidding? All BushCo does is taunt people like you with this issue.

Don't be stupid. Organize workers. It's really not all that diffcult. The advantage will go to legal, English speaking workers.

[Raydawg1234]

207. Are you kidding me..........

you think it's easy to start a union????????

I wish it was easy to start a union. I work at a crappy warehouse job, which was recently taken over by a national corporation. Once they got there they froze wages. Every day I sweat away unloading shipping containers from China. Some people have worked here for 20 years and only make $15 an hour. They buy a new company, filling the warehouse to capacity, creating unsafe conditions, but we just have to deal with it.

But, still no union. Most people aren't smart enough or are motivated enough. Most people are affraid that they will get fired if they try to start a union.

Dont forget, snitches. There's always a rat that will sell you out to management to help themselves.

Yet, every day I hear people talk about how they hate there jobs, but when it comes down to it, they are afraid to loose what little they've got.

No, creating a union is NOT THAT EASY.

[EFerrari]

210. Unionizing undocumented workers is working very well

in Los Angeles.

Apparently, you're out of touch.

[Name removed]

214. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[EFerrari]

219. And, how would you know that? Sorry, that's wrong. n/t

[w4rma]

208. Why? They can't vote. They are breaking the law and can be carted away

without a moment's notice. The business and the government can exploit, in a vast variety of ways, their ability to cart them away at any moment.

*And* because of this situation, their own wages are the lowest of all and they drive down everyone else's wage so their union dues are going to be barely a drop in the bucket.

[EFerrari]

212. I hear they taste a little like chicken, progressive.

[w4rma]

220. Now you've run out of arguments so you are devolving into facetiousness.nt

[EFerrari]

224. You're right. It's tiresome to read the same cr@p over and over.

Illegal immigrants bring more to this economy than they take away.

BuchCo is NEVER going to do anything about them.

We'd be so much further ahead to unionize them instead of buying into the Republican hysteria.

It really isn't rocket science.

[Name removed]

227. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[EFerrari]

233. LOL! I love this thread.

:rofl:

[Raydawg1234]

234. Talk to me when Wal-mart workers unionize

[EFerrari]

238. Why aren't you in Iraq or helping Walmart workers organize?

[Raydawg1234]

236. What do you do for a living??????????

[EFerrari]

241. My husband and I are in two different unions.

And we BOTH support unionizing undocumented workers.

BECAUSE THAT'S HOW LABOR WINS -- WITH NUMBERS.

[countryjake]

188. The AFL-CIO disagrees with you! Better get your definition of scab right

before you go making such a statement. Think the Unions in this country don't know what makes a real SCAB?

[Raydawg1234]

193. I am not in the AFL-CIO therefore I do not care what they think

I think that Illegal immigrants are scab workers.

[countryjake]

217. I see. More anti-labor crap.

[Raydawg1234]

221. I am not anti labor, I just have MY OWN OPINIONS

I guess it is a shock to some people to think that others are capable of critical thinking

[EFerrari]

215. I can't believe all the people on this thread that

think going after brown people will make their lives better.

:puke:

[Raydawg1234]

222. It's not a race thing dont make it that

[EFerrari]

226. Bullsh!T. Cover it anyway you want. It is. n/t

[Raydawg1234]

229. Figures you're from San Fransisco

You're like a Liberal extremist.

[EFerrari]

232. Yes! When rightwing racists come here, they melt at the border.

:evilgrin:

[w4rma]

223. You are talking about yourself. You support exploiting "brown people"

for cheap labor.

[EFerrari]

228. LOL!

:rofl:

[lonestarnot]

240. Well guess they'll learn hugh? Idiots. Are there any people left

willing to talk about how they feel now? I sure would be interested in what they have to say.

[gorbal]

251. I just hate all this arguing by people who basically agree

I hate how the conversation in this nation has changed. People no longer seem to have real "conversations" they just get all nasty. But I bet, if most of the people hear talked TOO each other rather than AT, they woudl find they agreed more than they thought they did.

[lonestarnot]

252. I haven't read the entire thread so do not know what you are talking

about. DUers argue soooooo. Just something that happens here.

[Jcrowley]

248. One condition

I strongly believe that they should close the border to Mexico. On one condition, which is you close it not only to people but to resources. If you say you want to close it to people but not resources, what you're saying is I don't want you but I want the coffee that's grown on the land that used to be yours.

Why is this migration taking place? It's not taking place because suddenly a bunch of people from Guatemala decide they want to take an eco-tour of the strawberry fields in the San Joaquin valley. It's because their communities are being destroyed through the theft of the land. If you don't want these people moving up here then don't steal those people's lands, pretty simple solution.

The entire discussion about immigrants is Orwellian and so are all of the proposed "remedies."

Of course no police state would first come after "us" - an imagined group of "others;" of "aliens" needs to be created in people's minds as the first targets.

People are looking at this issue in a way that is inconsistent with the lessons of history.

The logical and inevitable outcome of the current immigration discussion is to make everyone in the country illegal until and unless they can prove to the satisfaction of police agents that they are legal. That is a variation on guilty until proved innocent, with the burden for legitimacy placed on the individual rather than on the police. The crime involved will be - is already - no more and no less than "living without the express permission of the government as interpreted by law enforcement agents and as informed by snitches."

[pinto]

253. Locking.

Sorry. Although the cited article seemed a good basis for discussion, this thread has become littered with personal attacks. Maybe next time.

Thanks.