The argument is turning to 'How' to torture instead 'If' to torture.

[spanone]

This is how this sick administration works. They will now get a compromise from Congress and will be allowed to torture.

[salin]

1. and along the way anesthetize the public to what once would have

been so horrific of an idea, that it would have been a political career-killer.

[Jade Fox]

2. Outrageous, isn't it?

[spanone]

4. Beyond outrageous. Insidious. Sick. Warped.

...and this is from our Christian President.

[liberal N proud]

3. The answer should always be ZERO torture

ZERO, NONE, NOTHING, NO TORTURE.

AMERICA DOES NOT TORTURE!

[derby378]

5. And what are the Democrats on the Hill doing about this?

Honestly, I don't hear nearly enough from our elected representatives about how abhorrent this really is.

[Beelzebud]

10. Doing what they've done for 6 years.

They are going to sit on their asses and just hope the Republicans hand them victory...

It's pathetic...

[hootinholler]

6. Astute observation!

Why is torture even being discussed?

-Hoot

[malaise]

7. Bingo

and Dems need to attack the idea of torture.

[Cleita]

8. There aren't many black and white issues in the world, but

this is one of them. Torture under any circumstances is wrong. It's a sadistic practice that those who do practice it or order it done do so because they enjoy it. There is no degrees of acceptability here.

[soothsayer]

9. YOu are 100% right!

[Skidmore]

11. And it is outrageous!!

Congress is preparing to jack around with Article III and any legislation surrounding war crimesstatement. On Blitzer's show, Evan Bayh just pissed me off to no end just now. If we have other Dems who join him in his line of thinking and make it LEGAL to torture, especially when they have an abomination like the Patriots Act in place, we need to vote those Dems out. We need to send a clear message about this. IT IS NOT ALRIGHT TO TORTURE. IT IS NOT ALRIGHT TO STRIP CITIZENS OF THEIR CIVIL RIGHTS AND PEOPLE OF HUMAN RIGHTS. End of subject, as far as I'm concerned

[Amonester]

12. Plus: where are those who would defend any innocent humans...

who'd be tortured based on false information or else and no evidence of them having done anything wrong their entire lives?? Just WHO would ever be able to 'defend' them??

Who's asking the bu$hbots: "Who would Jesus torture?"
:grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr:

[Vinca]

13. What really pisses me off is they won't tell us what, exactly,

they have been doing and what, exactly, they want to do. Don't the American people have a right to know what is being done in their names? I don't have a problem with detainees listening to the Red Hot Chili Peppers, but I do mind if they're naked and half frozen to death.

[annabanana]

15. I do NOT want it "defined".

The human capacity for evil is limitless. Our imagination is infinite. That's why the definition MUST be fluid. If it is defined it can be circumvented..

We either torture, or we do not torture..

To define limitations is to erase all limits.

[Generator]

26. You have a way with words

So spot on. AND WHY THE HELL-is anyone compromising with an unpopular president over the most moral of issues who if they had any soul or brain knows that in time, they too will be indicted along with him as the source of the moral breaking point of a once great nation.

I'm running out of words to condemn them, it's getting beyond words for me.

[Marr]

14. Agreed- this is not something you "compromise" on.

The answer is NO. None.

[Rosemary2205]

16. kicking - because you put the whole issue in a nutshell

[kentuck]

17. K & R !

On point.

[ananda]

18. That just shows you how low..

.. and sick the dialogue in this country has become.

Torture shouldn't even be an issue. Sheesh!

[BlooInBloo]

19. ticking bomb! TICKING BOMB!!!!

There. That's how you get from 'if' to 'how'.

Fucking immoral idiots.

[Disturbed]

20. Are the following specifics of Article 147 Vague to you?

What is a war crime?
By Tarik Kafala
BBC News Online


Article 147 of the Fourth Geneva Convention defines war crimes as: "Willful killing, torture or inhuman treatment, including... willfully causing great suffering or serious injury to body or health, unlawful deportation or transfer or unlawful confinement of a protected person, compelling a protected person to serve in the forces of a hostile power, or willfully depriving a protected person of the rights of fair and regular trial, ...taking of hostages and extensive destruction and appropriation of property, not justified by military necessity and carried out unlawfully and wantonly."


This, international lawyers say, is the basic definition of war crimes.

The statutes of The Hague tribunal say the court has the right to try suspects alleged to have violated the laws or customs of war in the former Yugoslavia since 1992. Examples of such violations are given in article 3:

* Wanton destruction of cities, towns or villages, or devastation not justified by military necessity
* Attack, or bombardment, by whatever means, of undefended towns, villages, dwellings, or buildings
* Seizure of, destruction or willful damage done to institutions dedicated to religion, charity and education, the arts and sciences, historic monuments and works of art and science
* Plunder of public or private property.

The tribunal defines crime against humanity as crimes committed in armed conflict but directed against a civilian population. Again a list of examples is given in article 5:

* Murder
* Extermination
* Enslavement
* Deportation
* Imprisonment
* Torture
* Rape
* Persecutions on political, racial and religious grounds.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/1420133.stm

[BlooInBloo]

21. TICKING BOMB!!!!!

:rofl:
:rofl:
:rofl:

[cassiepriam]

22. I confess I don't like my country any more....

Nor most Americans.

I am ashamed to be an American.
Now I know how the Germans after WWII must have felt.

[sweetheart]

23. This is the core debate

Whether the citizen is to be afraid of the government, or
the government is to be afraid of the citizen... this is that narrative congealed in a fractile dimension.

[Hippo_Tron]

24. Torture doesn't work, IMO

Personally, if someone threatened to inflict any physical harm onto me, they wouldn't even need to pull out the electrodes before I'd tell them everything that they wanted to know. But if someone is willing to hold out and not tell you, I don't see how you can just beat the answer out of them. Maybe they will tell you something, but it probably won't be accuarte and how you tell if it is accurate?

And then there's sleep deprivation, which I also can't understand. Sure it's more humane than the stuff that went on at Abu Ghreib, but I just don't see how it can work. If someone were to keep me up for days I'm not sure that I would be capable of giving them a correct answer to their question even if I wanted to.

"Truth" serum is also notoriously unreiable. You can get people to say what you want them to say while they are under it, but not what is true.

[Rosemary2205]

25. Torture has NOTHING to do with getting information

They threaten to torture you. You give up everything you know including your sister's bra size before the first electrode comes out. Then they spend 3 or 4 months torturing you supposedly to make sure the information you gave is true. But the truth is, those guys are torturing you because they get their rocks off by torturing people.

99.999999999999% of our military, CIA and FBI people do what they do because they think they make a difference in the safety and security of this nation. They do ugly things when they have no other choice to save more lives than they take. But there is a small group of individuals who join up because they sadistic murderous fucks that need a legal way to get their rocks off.

The one good thing about this news of "rendition" to other countries is that if we are relying on the Saudis to do our torturing that probably means we can find enough American citizens who are sick enough to torture people.

[Hippo_Tron]

27. Scary that this administration would try to cover for these people