OK DU vets... I need some info re: a serious confrontation I got into.

[KyndCulture]

I have a (pseudo)friend that I got into a HUGE argment with last night.

He just turned 30. He did 2 tours in the navy. He was discharged from the navy at age 27, a mere 3 years ago.

I mentioned the fact that he is still on inactive reserve and could easliy be called back up.

He got royally pissed at me, and said, I served my time and there's no way they are gonna call me back up.

So I mentioned that the recruitment age has been raised to 42. He got more livid and said, there's no way they'd reup him.

So I launched into the backdoor draft speech. This guy is a democrat by the way.

I felt some serious animosity from him.

After the back and forth, he went for the jugular and said I was obsessed with politics, hating our government and completely off my rocker paranoid.

I want to be armed with some serious facts the next time I see this bozo.

He's far more concerned with getting some booty from the drunk bimbos at the bar, than listening to rational thought.

Can you guys give me the low down? Am I wrong? Is he safe from being called back to service?

[dkofos]

1. He will know for sure when he gets the letter

That may be the only thing that will convince him.

For the record, you are right.

[saltpoint]

2. We can't keep him out of the bimbo pick-up bars.

Unfortunately we might not be able to keep the president from sending him back to Iraq either.

Tell him he needs to read the newspapers once in a while. Maybe have him contact the families and friends of the people who have been called back.

You're right on the backdoor draft.

He would be right in a brighter time under a more worthy president.

But under this president, he's wrong.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

3. here in chicago, they recalled a 54 yr old who served two terms in Iraqnam

I suspect that they can and will recall him.

[Jon8503]

4. Believe You Are Correct

Not for sure but first you said he served two tours. How many total years did he serve? It used to be you were obligated for 6 years so if you served two, you still had 4 years for the inactive reserve or if you served 4, you had 2 more years inactive service that you could be called up without an emergency situation. However, you are also correct, the age has been moved up so, say if we were to go into Iran, they probably will need more bodies & he would still be eligible, probably depending on his age, expertise, MOS, whatever, if they needed that particular skill and he was within age.

In closing I would have to say, he still could very well be elgible to be called up.

[KyndCulture]

He did a 4 yr tour at 18.

The reupped for a 5 year tour and was discharged during his 27th year.

Which in my math skills, he served 9 years and he's still under an inactive reserve clause.


Ya know i had to be the downer in a converstation but his adament stance that they can't touch him, got me riled up.

[FILAM23]

12. If he did 9 years as I get from your post then

he should be home free, he has completed his 8 year obligation.

[KyndCulture]

17. See this is what I am asking.

He didn't finish his 9th year, I know that.

I don't have all the facts of how his enlistment went.

And he was too pissed to explain it.

He joined at 18, was given a deferal for a time. He was almost 20 when he finally was deployed and sent to some schools.

So it's somewhere between 8 and 7 yrs. If he was being rational I could have figured that out.


That's why I am asking today.

I just want some facts. Not judgements on my character for telling him what he didn't want to hear.

[Berry Cool]

9. Sounds to me like you are simply guilty of telling him a truth he doesn't

want to hear.

And of course, he's going to vent it on you first, and say you're full of it, and head out to the bars looking for some bimbos to pick up.

And can you blame him? You planted the seeds of doubt in his head. "You mean after all this I might get called up AGAIN?!? Can't be. No, that's crazy."

He's got to get away and drink himself into a stupor and spend time with some chicks and try not to think about it too much. Because once he does, and looks into the facts, he may not be a happy man.

But then the light bulb will go on in his head.

And he will realize that you were right.

Sadly, he will come back to you, and apologize, and acknowledge that you were right. And then maybe even ask what he can do politically to end this garbage.

And that's where you get your second chance.

[CrispyQ]

22. Can one branch of service call on personnel from another branch? --nt

[China_cat]

28. My niece is in the navy

and several of her classmates/shipmates have been shipped to dry duty in Iraq. Plus they have all been offered very big bonuses to transfer to the army.

[Bluerthanblue]

5. I believe, what you heard

was his fear- and your words pulled the curtain away exposing the monster he wants to run from and deny.

They can re-up him from everything I've learned and been told. I'll try and find you some specifics, but he is vulnerable. And I don't blame him for being afraid, and wanting to deny this- but getting angry at you isn't going to help him. He needs to direct his anger where it belongs. And put it to work to ensure that this stops now.

[Bluerthanblue]

23. here are a few links to info

about the Marines-

But I believe they aren't the only branch to be doing this, and your friend is in a vunerable place indeed-

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/opinion/content/opinion/epaper/2006/08/26/a14a_military_edit_0826.html


http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=20060823&articleId=3042

A presidential order from the commander-in-chief has sanctioned the Marine Corps to issue involuntary recall orders to members of the Individual Ready Reserve (IRR), part of the non-active force of ex-military personal. Marines serve for four years on active military duty and after under the guidelines of service generally serve another four years in the Primary Reserve where they have the option of volunteer to return to active duty to fill vacant stations and posts. Unlike the servicemen in the Primary Reserves who keep active by continuing their training and drills those ex-military personnel who are listed under IRR must be ready to serve the United States if they are all called up in case of a national emergency or an attack on the United States. There are currently 59,000 former Marines serving in the Individual Ready Reserve.12 The servicemen who decide to leave active duty or retire automatically become members of the IRR which is generically a standardized system used by military organizations in their defensive procedures around the world. The presidential authorization allows the IRR’s activation to be open-ended, which means thousands of former and retired Marines, with a demographic number of 35,000, will be called back to active service in both Anglo-American occupied Iraq and Afghanistan.

still looking for navy confirmation...

[mnhtnbb]

6. Here's a BBC report about Marines being reactivated--might apply to Navy

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/5276938.stm

[soothsayer]

7. here are some articles on it

http://www.unknownnews.net/040701littleknownseldomusedreserveactivationclause.html

Don't know about sailors, but:
"Marines and soldiers may be recalled up to eight years after they have been discharged. While the Marines have been meeting recruiting and retention goals, "it is short about 1,200 specialists in engineering, military police work, communications, and intelligence operations."
more at
http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0823/dailyUpdate.html

[Prisoner_Number_Six]

8. He's Grade A prime meat

All ready for the grinder.

He'll learn. You don't have to waste your time on him. Make up and give him a good friend while he's here.

[KyndCulture]

10. Well we are decent friends...

until he starts blaming my political obsession for his problems.


I got the vibe he's scared and is in denial. I thought a good friend could help him get a clue.

[Berry Cool]

13. Oh, you are, and you will. Just don't expect to be thanked for it

right away.

The truth hurts. Give him time to see that you are right. Then he'll be back, apologizing to you and ready to hear what you have to say about what to do about this situation as far as the politics are concerned.

[Prisoner_Number_Six]

14. Is that worth tormenting him?

He knows you're right- he's just scared shitless it won't be long before the letter comes. He just doesn't want to admit it. You shouldn't play that kind of mind game with him. Offer a shoulder instead of a reason for him to swing on you. You'll both be able to chill at the end of the day.

[KyndCulture]

15. It's not that.

He started the politics discussion with me.

I was enjoying an irish coffee.... he knows I know more than he does.

But what I don't know is how safe he is.... The recruitments keep changed, the inactive reserve keep changing.


I'm sorry if I upset him, but if he asks me for the truth I sure as fuck ain't gonna sugar coat it.

[CrispyQ]

31. Tell him you hope with all your heart that you are wrong.

Then do what Prisoner_Number_Six says & be a good friend while he's here.

:grr: I hate this fucking war.

[matcom]

11. I almost got recalled for Gulf War I

and a TON of my buddies DID have to go back. yes he can be recalled - at the drop of a hat.

bet him $100. with the way things are going, your odds are MUCH better than his

[acmavm]

16. Why worry about it? If he finds out the hard way, he finds out the

hard way.

[KyndCulture]

18. eh just cause it bothered me that he got so nasty at me.

We are friends, hang out every couple weeks and have a drink or gnosh on some bar food and talk.

He surprised me last night losing his mind on me.


I guess I am just asking for the facts of redeployment.

Cause I really don't know more than I read.

[acmavm]

19. Honestly, you can't worry about it. I have a friend I've known for 40

years. Every now and then she'll get on her high horse about something of which she knows nothing. And she'll be downright offensive about it too. I just tell her to knock it off, that she doesn't know what she's talking about and she gets huffy and I have to wait until it wears off. I'd be better off if I let her rant and just didn't pay any attention to her. Unless she asked for an opinion or expected an answer. Then I'm forced to answer.

I've never been able to figure it out, which issues will set her off, which she's not about to listen to reason about. Like I said, if I'd ignore her...

Anyway, I've seen her get caught up in her craziness with other people too. She'll go the same route in her damn argument and they'll tell her the same thing I did. Result is the same. She gets pissed and believes what she wants to believe. Up until, like the time with her insurance, she finds out she was wrong and can't do a damn thing about it because she wouldn't listen and its too late. Then she just refuses to talk about it.

So don't worry about it. Eventually they find out.

[KyndCulture]

20. So very true!

Thanks for the story. It's about the same here.

[acmavm]

21. Now you explain something to me. Why do we keep doing this? She's

been my friend for four (4) decades. Sometimes she makes me so make I could (and do) scream.

But she's the kindest hearted person I know, deep down inside. Even someone that I know whe truly dislikes could always to go her for help.

Wait. I think I answered my own question.

[Bluerthanblue]

25. don't mean to butt in, but

fear often comes out as anger- because anger isn't seen as 'weakness'-

I think this mans reaction is fueled by his unvoicable terror-


peace,
blu

[acmavm]

27. Upon reflection that is a possibility.

[KyndCulture]

29. I agree...

Fear and anger are closely related as we've seen with the freepers.

[Ioo]

24. You are right, he can be called back

ALL service members enter a term of inactive duty for at least 4 years after you leave. This is unless you were discharged for med reasons or criminal ones.

[KyndCulture]

30. And if my thinking is correct...

we call that a backdoor draft. no?

[DocSavage]

38. You are

incorrect. Military obligation is 8 years. Werther it be on active duty, reserve or in the IRR, once that 8 year obligation is completed, you are done. Meaning, if you are on a second enlistment, with one extension (Navy), at the end of your extension or 2nd enlistment, you are free and clear of the canoe club.

Raising the age of enlistment does nothing to recalling individuals. All that means is that the Armed Forces are accepting older applicants. Most likely, older people with specific skills, EMT, Paramedic, Languages, Electronic repair and such. Too old to start off as grunts. I know that once I reached 40 I was having a hard time keeping up on force marches, and it took a lot more Motrin to get my knees working in the morning.

Combat arms is a young mans game.

[Jon8503]

26. Thought you might find this article interesting.

Judge: Reservist Must Report For Duty
Associated Press
September 14, 2004


RALEIGH, N.C. - A man who served the eight years required under his ROTC contract remains an Army reservist obliged to report for active duty because he failed to sign a resignation letter, a federal judge has ruled.

Todd Parrish, 31, had sought to block the Army from calling him to active duty until his lawsuit on the issue was decided.

But Judge Louise Flanagan denied the request on Friday, meaning that if the Army denies Parrish's administrative appeal, he could be forced to go on active duty while the case is litigated.

Parrish signed the ROTC contract while a student at North Carolina State University. He argued that his military obligation ended Dec. 19, following four years of active duty and four years in the reserves.

His attorney, Mark Waple, did not immediately return a call seeking comment Monday.

Army lawyer Maj. Chris Soucie told the judge that Parrish could be recalled to duty because he failed to sign a resignation line on a letter asking for an update on his personal information.

Parrish, a married communications officer, said he sent the Army a letter resigning his commission and did not sign the line on the form because he thought he had already resigned.

The judge's order said Parrish cannot be ordered to active duty before Sept. 26.

If the Army's adjutant general denies Parrish's appeal, he will be given a reasonable amount of time to report for duty, U.S. Attorney Frank Whitney said.

Sound Off...What do you think? Join the discussion.

http://www.military.com/NewsContent/0,13319,FL_duty_091404,00.html

[newyawker99]

32. I guess they are doing this to avoid a draft.

[peacebaby3]

43. Yep. This guy was an officer and they must officially resign. Enlisted

sign a contract and are only obligated for 8 yrs. Officer is different, they must resign. Until they do, they are in. The OP said that his/her friend was enlisted so this wouldn't apply to him.

BUT...if you are an officer, you better make sure you have OFFICIALLY resigned.

[Retired AF Dem]

33. Two tours? and enlisted or officer?

how many years active did he do? If enlisted and he did eight years active he is finished. If he did six years he has two years he could be called up.

[KyndCulture]

34. Enlisted.

I'm unsure of the actual tour...

He reupped but he had a derferment for some some schooling before he reupped.

My guess is between 6 and 7 total years.

[Retired AF Dem]

35. For enlisted folks

total military time is eight years.

[TahitiNut]

39. Military-sponsored schooling usually adds 2::1 to the obligation, iirc.

If he was sent to college while in the military, I think his total obligation (starting at 8 years) is extended by two months for every month in school. As I recall from nearly 40 years ago, that was the deal. Could've changed. :shrug:

[peacebaby3]

36. If enlisted and he's done 8 yrs. then he's through with his contract.

If he did a 4-yr. tour and then a 5-yr. tour, he's done. If he's an officer, it's a bit different. Maybe that is why he got upset because he knows he has finished his 8-yr. contract and is no longer in the IRR.

[maxrandb]

37. He's in the clear

When you enlist, you sign an 8 year obligation. Most are 4 years active/4 years IRR (Individual Ready Reserve. If he has completed his 8 year obligation, then he can't be recalled. If he is still in IRR, then he can. Sounds like he already fulfilled his 8 year obligation. The Marine "stop loss" is something different. These are folks that have completed their "active duty" obligation, but still have reserve time. Some that have also completed their entire 8 year obligation are being held, but those are folks that are still in uniform and serving when the stop loss kicked in.

[Breeze54]

40. I think you forgot about the National Guard

Here's one and there are plenty more......

National Guardsman Challenges 'Stop-Loss' Policy
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4578639

Listen to this story... by Martin Kaste

Morning Edition, April 6, 2005 ·

A federal appeals court plans to hear the case of a National Guardsman who is challenging
the Pentagon's "stop-loss" policy. The Oregon man had two weeks left on an 8-year contract
when he was ordered to Afghanistan for a year-plus deployment.

======================
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/219135_stoploss07.html

Thursday, April 7, 2005

U.S. court upholds extending enlistments
Oregon National Guardsman calls it illegal 'backdoor draft'

By PAUL SHUKOVSKY
SEATTLE POST-INTELLIGENCER REPORTER

A federal appeals court backed the military yesterday in keeping thousands of men and women in uniform and often in combat even though their enlistments are supposed to be over.

The ruling, which came from a three-judge panel shortly after a morning hearing, focused on an Oregon National Guardsman from Pasco who will now soon be on his way overseas.

But it also is a victory for the Bush administration, which has used extending enlistments -- known as "stop loss" -- at a time when the military is being stretched to serve in Iraq and Afghanistan and when military recruiting is falling short of goals.

The ruling by the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals panel is also a defeat for thousands of soldiers who in the last four years found themselves serving when they thought they would be civilians. In one large Washington National Guard group that just got back from Iraq, for example, the enlistments of about 10 percent of the soldiers were extended by stop loss.

Read on...........

:grr: :nuke:

[maxrandb]

42. Your example says the guy still had two-weeks left on his

8 year obligation. As long as he's still under contract, they can "stop loss" him. If he's completed his 8 years and is out (free and clear) then they have no contract to "stop loss" him to.

I think they are playing a little funny with the law though. Don't have it in front of me, but I recall the contract saying that you could be "retained beyond your active duty in time of war". I'm still looking for that Congressional Declaration of War.

Additionally, the contract used to say you were entitled to quite a bit of extra pay if you were retained beyond your EAOS. I don't think our troops are getting the extra money.

[Breeze54]

45. Pentagon's 'stop loss' policy stretches boundaries

Stop-loss policy
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search

The stop-loss policy, in the United States military, is the involuntary retention of some troops to remain
n service beyond their expected or contractually agreed-upon term. Stop loss was created by Congress
after the Vietnam War; it was first significantly used just before and during the first Gulf War.
It has been used more extensively since 2001 primarily to fight the War on Terrorism declared by George W. Bush.

The use of this means, along with incentive based programs, has been controversial, and called by some,
including John Kerry, Bush's challenger during the 2004 US Presidential Election, a "backdoor draft."

The first legal challenge to this policy came in October 2004, with a lawsuit challenged by an anonymous
National Guardsman in California, referred to as "John Doe." A basis for the suit is that stop-loss does not
apply to the current situtation in Iraq, which is a military occupation and not a war zone.<1>

The first legal challenge to the extension of term of service of military callup or contract occurred during the American Civil War.

===========================

Pentagon's 'stop loss' policy stretches boundaries

http://www.timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=513557&category=OPINION&newsdate=9/5/2006

First published: Tuesday, September 5, 2006

I am writing to respond to Richard Hickey's Aug. 30 letter, "Involuntary recall a duty of veterans."

Mr. Hickey correctly points out that veterans on Inactive Ready Reserve are fulfilling a portion of the enlistment contract. Most enlistment contracts entail two to five years of active duty service, with another three to eight years of IRR status to fulfill the commitment. Members still under contract in the Inactive Ready Reserve may indeed have an obligation to report when called back to active duty.

The argument falls apart, however, when you consider the recent Pentagon practice of unilaterally extending IRR status past the commitment period through a program called "stop loss." Members on IRR status, including me, have received notification informing us we are to be kept on Inactive Ready Reserve status indefinitely. This is essentially a draft of previously enlisted people, which in my opinion stretches the boundaries of the "sense of duty" Mr. Hickey espouses.

I wonder at Mr. Hickey's callous disregard for the lives and families of his fellow veterans. I would think he, as a Vietnam veteran, would not wish to see America's soldiers wasted on an unjust war being fought on shabby premises for the glorification and profiteering of the defense contracting and oil industries.

The reason the involuntary recall is necessary in the first place is the squandering and downright abuse of precious volunteer personnel resources. The duty-bound Marines who would normally be re-enlisting are thinking better of it, because their duty truly is to corps and country, not to warmongering civilian policy hacks with no concept of fighting a battle.

If my country is ever truly threatened by a foreign or domestic enemy, I will gladly rejoin to defend it. I will refuse to serve and go to prison, though, before I would ever be sent to Iraq, Iran or Lebanon to kill or die for the misguided sense of imperialistic bravado driving the current foreign policy nightmare.

RICHARD MALCOLM

Schenectady

[NorthernSpy]

41. c'mon... why push his buttons like that?

I'm not a vet, but...

Judging from your friend's response, it's pretty obvious that the thought of getting called up is upsetting for him:

I mentioned the fact that he is still on inactive reserve and could easliy be called back up.

He got royally pissed at me, and said, I served my time and there's no way they are gonna call me back up.

So I mentioned that the recruitment age has been raised to 42. He got more livid and said, there's no way they'd reup him.

So I launched into the backdoor draft speech. This guy is a democrat by the way.

I felt some serious animosity from him.

After the back and forth, he went for the jugular and said I was obsessed with politics, hating our government and completely off my rocker paranoid.

I want to be armed with some serious facts the next time I see this bozo.

Or you could just lay off, already! Clearly, he doesn't want to talk about this.

Please don't take all this so personally. Instead of preparing for another confrontation with him, how about dropping the subject? If he eventually wants to talk about this, then you can be a good friend and listen.

He's far more concerned with getting some booty from the drunk bimbos at the bar, than listening to rational thought.

Why judge him like that? Remember: for you, this is a political issue; for him, this is his life. Maybe he wants to have some fun now, because tomorrow -- who knows?

If I had to guess, I'd say that your friend is pretty sure that he's done with active duty for good, but there's always that little nagging doubt. Maybe, for whatever reason, he's afraid to ask questions and find out for certain. I dunno. Whatever the case, how about backing off a little and letting him sort himself out?

[Raskolnik]

44. *You* didn't know either

Yet he's the "bozo" in this discussion?