Does the rest of the world see us as the new Nazis?

[Cyrano]

When they watch the madman who calls himself president what conclusion can they come to? Do they know he's speaking in front of hand picked audiences who worship the ground he walks on?

Do they see any opposition from the Dems? What must they believe when he gets up and demands that torturing people is his right. How do they see us when he wants to bring people to trial and then execute them without ever letting them see the evidence against them?

The world must have watched aghast in the late 1930s when Germany's madman held torchlight rallies, burned books, invaded first Austria and then Czechoslovakia. And now they've watched our homegrown lunatic invade Iraq and indicate that Iran is next.

Hitler blamed Jews, Gypsies, and communists for all of Germany's troubles. Crazy George blames "Islamo fascists" and those who criticize him for our troubles. How can anyone look at this and not think that a new Nazi plague is threatening the world? The world sees Cheney still insisting that Iraq attacked us on 9/11 and we're well on the road to victory. They see Rumsfeld sitting in front of a senate panel ignoring them, questioning himself and providing the answers to his own questions.

What they don't see is an aroused citizenry in the streets screaming for an end to the madness. What they don't see is an upcoming election in which the mental defectives in charge are certain to be thrown out. And I don't see it either.

We wondered how the German people marched in lockstep off a cliff. Now we know.

[magellan]

1. They see it

And there are a lot of good Germans in this country who never will until it's too late.

[ShortnFiery]

2. Yes, they are, after all, only going to torture the evil "terrorists"

But they fail to ask, "What entity defines who is a Terrorist?" :scared:

[leftchick]

3. no doubt about it

though Hitler didn't brag about his detention facilites and his torture capabilities like our bushhitler.

[Totally Committed]

4. If they don't...

they haven't been paying attention.

At least now I can better understand that it wasn't ALL the German people who looked the other way and marched like automatons behind the Nazis... there had to be a dissenting voice, stronger than the one I always imagined. We here, on the Left, are that voice today.

TC

[Freedom_from_Chains]

5. I think so, and it scares the hell out of them.

Particularly considering all those nukes we have.

[Hav]

6. .

As a European, I don't see the Americans in general as Nazis.
What I find worrying though, and that's not only the case with Americans, is a certain indifference. I don't know how to express it in a better way. An indifference to people of other origins in the way that one would probably care more if they were from the same country when they are held without any rights or charges, for example. Or an indifference when it comes to the reasons that their named for the current war and that one just doesn't care anymore why all those people have to die still today.

In the same way, I guess that many "good germans" just didn't really care what happened to those in concentration camps until they saw it first hand.
I don't want to equate these two cases, it's just that I believe that this indifference to inhuman treatment to certain people is similar in many countries.

[Cyrano]

8. Yes, inhuman treatment is practiced in other countries. But none of them

have the power to destroy the world with nukes. And one would have to be a fool to believe that the maniacs who have stolen our country wouldn't use our nuclear arsenal.

BushCo wants us all to be afraid of his invented "Them." Well, I'm afraid all right, but what I fear is the increasing desperation of the maniacs driving our country and their fear that they may someday be held to account for their crimes. Cornered, rabid rats are the most dangerous.

[tocqueville]

7. the answer is no

because there is still democracy in America and the rendition/Guantanamo syndrome is seen as peripheral.

On the other hand (from an European perspective) people a seeing the American administration as a bunch of violent juvenile dangerous religious nuts.

The comparison with nazism doesn't fit, except for the overall display of flags which is seen as ridiculous.
Remember that at the time of the rise of nazism a lot of people weren't aware of what was really going on and parades were quite mainstream at that time. There was no TV, no internet and pictures in newspapers were rare.
The only news in form of pictures were the "journals" sent before an ordinary movie.

It's very different to look at nazism's rise, when you have a facit and a background.

As long as the US don't go to an open dictatorship, the picture will be "they are nuts, but it will go over". Remember McCarthyism and the apartheid state of the South. In many ways it was far worse at least internally. But the world still saw the US as a democracy.

It will be a problem though if a next Dem President doesn't really clean the house, which isn't probable. Because if he/she doesn't, the Bush history is bound to repeat itself, and that time it will be even worse.

[lectrobyte]

10. What do you make of the invasion of Iraq? I think as long as

the problems are "internal", such as racism, or McCarthyism, the rest of the world doesn't care too much, but once we start invading random countries to sieze control of their resources (remember the "do not destroy the oil wells" speech?) then everybody else starts looking for parallels to Germany of the 1930's.

[The2ndWheel]

13. Then we've been Nazis

before the Nazis were even the Nazis.

We need to stop comparing ourselves to Nazi Germany. We're our own brand of empire.

[lectrobyte]

15. Our own brand of empire. I think you've nailed it on that one. I suppose

some folks would drag out some of our skeletons, such as "smallpox blankets" to point out that we were genocidal before genocidal was cool, but we are our own empire.

[The2ndWheel]

16. Never hurts to start from the beginning

We've always been an expanding center of power. From the first colony in the New World, to spreading over an entire continent, to eventually breaking through our own natural borders and beyond the sea. We've never been a peace loving nation, because there really is no such thing. Yes, former empires in Europe(pick any you want) no longer invade anyone on their own, but that's thanks to the American military. If our military didn't keep the world economy going, I'd be willing to bet a little more of those European tax dollars would go towards their own military machines, instead of social programs.

[Swamp Rat]

32. Yes, bonafide eugenics began in the USA in the 19th Century

... though, we could keep going back in history further to see earlier manifestations of it.

http://www.waragainsttheweak.com/

How American corporate philanthropies launched a national campaign of ethnic cleansing in the United States, helped found and fund the Nazi eugenics of Hitler and Mengele — and then created the modern movement of "human genetics."

------------------

In the first three decades of the 20th Century, American corporate philanthropy combined with prestigious academic fraud to create the pseudoscience eugenics that institutionalized race politics as national policy. The goal: create a superior, white, Nordic race and obliterate the viability of everyone else.

How? By identifying so-called "defective" family trees and subjecting them to legislated segregation and sterilization programs. The victims: poor people, brown-haired white people, African Americans, immigrants, Indians, Eastern European Jews, the infirm and really anyone classified outside the superior genetic lines drawn up by American raceologists. The main culprits were the Carnegie Institution, the Rockefeller Foundation and the Harriman railroad fortune, in league with America's most respected scientists hailing from such prestigious universities as Harvard, Yale and Princeton, operating out of a complex at Cold Spring Harbor on Long Island. The eugenic network worked in tandem with the U.S. Department of Agriculture, the State Department and numerous state governmental bodies and legislatures throughout the country, and even the U.S. Supreme Court. They were all bent on breeding a eugenically superior race, just as agronomists would breed better strains of corn. The plan was to wipe away the reproductive capability of the weak and inferior.

Ultimately, 60,000 Americans were coercively sterilized — legally and extra-legally. Many never discovered the truth until decades later. Those who actively supported eugenics include America's most progressive figures: Woodrow Wilson, Margaret Sanger and Oliver Wendell Holmes.

American eugenic crusades proliferated into a worldwide campaign, and in the 1920s came to the attention of Adolf Hitler. Under the Nazis, American eugenic principles were applied without restraint, careening out of control into the Reich's infamous genocide. During the pre-War years, American eugenicists openly supported Germany's program. The Rockefeller Foundation financed the Kaiser Wilhelm Institute and the work of its central racial scientists. Once WWII began, Nazi eugenics turned from mass sterilization and euthanasia to genocidal murder. One of the Kaiser Wilhelm Institute doctors in the program financed by the Rockefeller Foundation was Josef Mengele who continued his research in Auschwitz, making daily eugenic reports on twins. After the world recoiled from Nazi atrocities, the American eugenics movement — its institutions and leading scientists — renamed and regrouped under the banner of an enlightened science called human genetics.

http://www.waragainsttheweak.com/

[tocqueville]

31. I don't dispute the facts

I am talking about the perception. The Iraqi invasion comes into the very complicated context of 9/11. Most Europeans know that there were no ties and that the enterprsise was foolish and counterproductive. But it is ssen as a bad decision in "war on terror". It had been completely different if the US had invaded Canada and Mexico, meaning "they historically belong to us" by some whatever "historical" or "divine right". If the US did something
like that, the EU would immediately break ties, expell US bases and starting an arm race, because they'd feel directly threatened. I hope you see the difference in perception.

[Cyrano]

11. Guantanamo and rendition are only what is most visible to foreigners.

The fading of our democracy is a day to day activity that's been going on for the past six years. Who can claim that we still have a free press? Who can claim that we haven't lost constitutional rights that we've always taken for granted? For example, our right to vote has become virtually meaningless.

Who can claim that the middle class is not disappearing? When people can't pay their mortgages, afford gas, and need a job, they are more likely to go along with whoever promises to make things better. None of these situations happened by accident. They are all the result of insane tax cuts and laws that have been passed (the Medicare drug plan, the inability to sue, and much more) to impoverish the majority while enriching a small group of power mad, greedy thugs.

You want to know what these people want? More. And they'll never have enough until they have it all.

I remember hearing the phrase, "Today Germany, tomorrow the world." That same phrase can be applied the the U.S. today.

[rhett o rick]

17. Interesting answer. Where do u draw the line? When would we

recognize that democracy is lost. You claim we still have democracy in the Country, what r u basing that on. The current administration has flagrantly violated the Constitution in our face and dared us to do something about it. Very little has been done. Yes occasionally we see a step in the correct direction but usually followed by 10 giant steps toward fascism. The President and his administration lie to us daily with very little rebuttal. One party has control of all parts of the government with the SCOTUS just waiting to give the President unitary executive powers. The Neocon Nazi's are not going to give up power. They have demonstrated they will do whatever it takes to maintain power. And they have all the money. This Country is run by the Neocon Nazi's. If we can take control of the HOR it will be a big step in the correct direction but we have a long way to go to shrug the yoke of fascism. Remember, to win the next election will require fair voting machines.

[tocqueville]

30. democracy is lost when DU is shut down

and even worse when Skinner is in jail (or worse). You cannot compare the situation in the US now and the situation in Germany 1936. The signs in the US are very alarming, but they haven't yet reached a point of non- return. I am more worried over the fact that even a Dem victory in November wouldn't change things very much.
Maybe create kind of a status quo, that could be easily reversed in the event of a new "9/11" for example.

[rhett o rick]

34. agree but i don't think that is too far away. I hope we react before it

reaches the point of no return. If the current administration decided that DU constituted civil disobedience, then skinner could be arrested w/o Constitution protections per current law in Patriot Act.

[EST]

19. What you say makes sense.

There is one point, however, I want to take issue with.

Where there was a rather large segment of the German population with a very limited knowledge of current and recent history there is now the willfully ignorant segment which gets its views from faux snooze. That segment serves two purposes, the first of which is that it presents as the part of the German population that was uninformed, but also an active, virulent portion which is acting on bad information.

They could be regarded as propaganda victims as well as purveyors and active participants thereof.

I think inertia and the habit of living in a society that is relatively liberal are the biggest bastions against the slide into fascism, and without which it would possibly be even easier for a fourth reich to arise here.

[tocqueville]

33. the situations are not really comparable

in The German case you had a very active communist rebellion (following orders from Moscow) that even tried to overthrow the power with violence (Berlin upprisal). The Social Democrats were (as usual) out of touch with reality. Foreign troops were on German territory and massed at the borders. It was much easier for Hitler to enforce his plans through violence.

The risk in the US are more based on inherent flaws in the system (where the US constitution plays a great role even if you might not like the idea, I won't develop it here). The US system should not allow such a situation, but it is still a fact it arose. Other factors which are of ideological nature are very aggravating too. For example religion and the average US-citizen perception that a certain form of violence is permissible. For example death penalty and the fact that about 60% of Americans seems to think that "torture-light" is acceptable. Plenty of coercion forms in the US (tasers, pepperspray etc..) are completely unacceptable in Europe.

Since Americans have never been subject to oppression (I mean REAL oppression) since 1776, besides the black/native population, they don't know how to fight it. They don't have parties in the European meaning, but election machines. They are not organized, and don't know how to organize. Even the rare mass demonstrations are futile in percentage compared to what a European nation can mobilize in crisis (most of the time for far less important issues). An European "Bush regime" had probably already resulted in a more or less "violent" - at least "orange revolution type"- movement in any country there and been overthrown, resulting in a paradigm change, new charismatic leaders, a revision of the constitution and drastic measures concerning the Army and corporations.

In the US today, you only need a "Reichstag Brand" and the fourth Reich is there. Without armed rebellion in New York and enemy troops massed at the Canadian and Mexican borders.

Internal splits within the conservatives and the amateurism of the Bush cabal are probably what's preventing it to happen today. But you never know...

[Atman]

9. Actually, kinda "Yes" as I just found out Saturday night

Stayed with some friends who invited to Spanish nationals over. They've been in the country only three weeks so far, but were absolutely stunned that we apparently don't criticize our president on the national news. We suggested for "real" news, he needs to watch the Daily Show, and read between the sarcasm. But, while they didn't go so far as to say we're viewed as "Nazis" he was shocked at what American has allowed itself to become, and couldn't understand why we are so ignorant of how truly hated we are virtually everywhere outside our borders. Not so much hated, actually, rather a laughing stock. It was very sad, but it was perhaps the most stimulating night of conversation I've had in years, as we sat out under the Back Bay sky until midnight discussing all things geo-political. It ain't pretty. Bush has turned us into a joke in the eyes of the world. A bad, evil, joke.

They were VERY disconcerted to hear about our voting machine problems. Hubby asked about when we might remove Bush, and I explained our supposed elections in November and the way power is supposed to work in Washington, and that despite how horrible Bush is and how much he is loathed, that his party will still cheat and steal to stay out of jail, and therefore will hold on to power in November. He was incredulous that "the people" don't rise up and demand a power shift. I tried to explain how it all worked here, which they did understand. They are here on long-term job assignments, and selected Boston over Lousianna or North Carolina "or some of those states in the middle, they didn't know what the were." LOL. So we also had to explain about New England being and outlier, far more liberal than the rest of the country.

They're in for a long stay in America!

[indepat]

12. My LTTE to local RW rag got my e-mails blocked for suggesting the editors

explain to their readers how the invasion of Iraq differed materially from the German, Italian, and Japanese invasions of the 1930s and why Justice Jackson's pronouncements at Nuremberg as to what constitutes war crimes do not apply here. Wonder what the editors now think of that unpublished LTTE written shortly after the invasion and occupation or are their heads still in the sand and noses still stuck up the ideological RW asshole?

[mogster]

14. Many more than you think does support him

Bush has enabled a certain doctrine also in European politics; where the European conservatives have moved many steps to the right. Or at least, the Norw. ones, I can't speak for all Europe, lol.

The Dems are invisible here in the media, just as the DU/Liberal blogosphere and the US peace movement. I tried to tip off the journos about Sheehan, and supposedly they managed to find out about that story for themselves as well.
But the width and depth of the resistance against Bush in the US is not a topic.

Instead they focus on the Republicans, a test was the McCain anti-torture stand just now, which made the headlines, while all previous debate has been more or less silenced.
The PNAC is not mentioned, and are considered a conspiracy theory. The Downing Street memo also are not mentioned and considered a conspiracy theory. The voting fraud of 2000 is considered a conspiracy theory, and produces no debate. The voting irregularities of 2004 is not mentioned and are considered a conspiracy theory. The media here introduced conservative bloggers in the summer of 2004, and ended by calling Kerry a 'transvestite'.

Gannon was not mentioned. The mad Schavio-frenzy of the Repubs and the Govt. strange manouvering during that episode was portrayed as 'good Christian behaviour' by most media, only comments by liberals in the culture-section of the papers was somewhere near intelligent, but was buried far under the public radar. All questions about 911, even reasonable, are immediately branded as conspiracies, and alligned with the 'moon landers' and the 'no world cup in Sweden' type of theories.
Abramoff and corruption is not mentioned, the DeLay indictment was barely mentioned (and he was not condemned at all when mentioned), the Lay connections with Bush is considered a conspiracy theory, the buying of journos by the US govt. was barely mentioned and produced zero debate and also so the Rather episode.

Basically, the Norw. journos translates and rewrites what their US colleagues write, so if serious things start to happen to people in the US, don't expect the Norwegian press to help making you visible unless the US journos start to do their job.

Olbermann is of course completely ignored:
http://www.dagbladet.no/tekstarkiv/?string=Olbermann&tag=item&created%5B%5D=&created%5B%5D=
http://aftenposten.sesam.no/search/?q=Olbermann&c=n
http://interaktiv.vg.no/sok/s.asp?q=olbermann

The only Dems visible in the Norw. press are Hillary Clinton and Al Gore, but usually not portrayed in a positive light.
Here's an example from the paper dagbladet, where Hillary is accusing Bush of corruption and incompetence:

A glance at this headline portrays Hillary as incompetent and corrupt, not Bush. The only place I've seen such a bad picture of her is at the FR.
I wrote about it in a blog post, and described this portrait:
'Hillary looks like a heavy drug addict hanging over you to beg for money, while Bush comes across as almost neutral' (sorry, Hillary :-)
If you read the rest of the article, Hillary 'attacks' Bush. It's not just reasonable criticism due to his track record, you now, but an _attack_ on the PRESIDENT ;-)
Another example:
http://www.dagbladet.no/nyheter/2006/02/27/459175.html
Title: 'Hillary is too weak'
Better pic, but not as good as the two smiling bastards below.

The Norw. press is dark blue (or dark red, as it would be seen in the US), nearly brown, picking up on racism and xenophobia to sell more papers. In Norway too, the myth about the liberal press is a fact, with 67% of journo's supposedly voting for the Socialist Left.
But you only have to take a look at the main outlets to see the people from the Progress party dominating every headline, their dumb theories about supposed local sharia laws and 'invasion of the dark hordes' a prominent factor in the reporting.

Don't expect the Norw. press to cover your backs, I've tried to tip them off about what's happening, but they ignore me or delete my posts.

[cassiepriam]

18. They should, because we are the new nazis.

May God have mercy on our souls.
No one else will.

[Richard Steele]

20. Not so much Nazis; probably more like "the new Soviets".

And I agree with your last sentence completely.
Kinda makes me rethink my opinion of the average
1930s German Citizen.

I don't APPROVE any more than I ever did; but I sure feel
like I UNDERSTAND much more than I did before, now that I
am seeing it firsthand.

[EST]

22. I, too, have been guilty of a sort af smug superiority in regard

to the German population of the 1930s. At the heart of it was the assumption that we were just too smart, too well educated, too urbane to be manipulated into supporting a right wing/religiofundy descent into fascism.

As you so elegantly stated, my own understanding of pre-WWII Europe has taken a qualitative shift with the observation of catastrophic silliness enveloping the US.

[Richard Steele]

24. And we had the historical benefit of a RECENT HOLOCAUST to "never forget".

In the Germans' defense, at least THEY had never seen anything like the Nazis,
so they had no reason to be suspicious in the early years when they
could have stopped them with bloodless POLITICAL action.
Hell, NO ONE had seen anything like the Nazis... Not EVER.

We fought this shit a mere 50 years ago; we sent our children off
to DIE to stop this stuff...
we should KNOW BETTER!

We've seen this all before, and yet many of us are falling for it.
History will find NO EXCUSE for us, as a group.

At least the Mussolini-lovers had the lame excuse that "He made
the trains run on time."

We don't even have that, because it's crystal clear that B*sh has
TOTALLY screwed up every Government endeavor he's ever been a party to.

[Cyrano]

26. I couldn't agree more. I really thought "it couldn't happen here."

I never thought that even 1/3 of Americans could/would support (or not recognize) that it IS happening here.

We always knew we had a lunatic fringe, the same as any other country in the world. But who could have believed we would find ourselves where we currently are?

Most of us have a visceral reaction when we see a Nazi flag. I wonder how many people in the world feel that way today when they see an American flag. At one point many moons ago, I was a grunt serving under that flag. Today, I'm ashamed. And like most of us, I don't know how the hell to put an end to these pricks who have robbed us of our pride, our constitution, our freedoms and our country.

I was fortunate enough to survive my time in the service. Damn these cretins to hell for sending young people to their deaths for nothing but their own greed, lust for power, and the gratification of their own soulless existence.

[EST]

29. I have been a little ashamed of certain thoughts that, until now,

I have kept private.

Viet Nam was bad enough, with quite a number of guys who I knew before service, as well as many that I became close to, breathing their last breath in defense of the "domino theory."

Up until recently, even though I knew that the V-N war was based on lies and stupid dreams of American hegemony and empire, I still felt those deaths had at least a little validity, given that Russia and China really were trying for world domination, themselves.

Now, I find myself being privately glad that neither by brother nor myself were killed for this.

The futility of giving my life so that this dickhead and his fellow disrupters could find a way to destroy the very thing we thought we were fighting for has to be the saddest of bitter irony.

Even worse, getting killed so this rich, fascist asshole could go awol, desert and then be free to spout his precious views and take over the government to destroy the people that I actually like is a malignant nightmare that shows up with increasing frequency.

[Tyo]

21. At least we are pretty much alone

We are marching down this bad road essentially as an army of one. In the 1930's almost every industrialized country had a Fascist party or movement.

[Cyrano]

23. There's the possibility we can stop this march to fascism ourselves. But

if we can't, the rest of the world may have to combine their strength to stop us. As outlandish as this may sound now, who could have imagined six years ago we'd be where we are today?

Right now, the biggest threat to life on this planet is the beasts who have stolen our country. They won't go easily and they certainly won't go alone. I truly believe that, if challenged by a strong union of other nations, they'll use our arsenal. Their mindset is that if they're not in charge, or are held answerable for their crimes against humanity, they'll take all of humanity with them on their way out.

Had I written the previous sentence six years ago, I would have been taken away in a straight jacket. It's virtually incomprehensible that today, such a thought is a possible reality.

[Beelzebud]

25. No, just corporate fascists.

[Vidar]

27. We're getting there.

[hogwyld]

28. As someone who immigrated and has family outside of the US

Many people in my home country do view the US as a repeat of Nazi Germany. The ONLY difference is that we have the internet to dispense the truth. In my travels to S. America, Asia, and parts of Europe, they would love nothing less than to see the US get a good sized smackdown. How sad that this once great coutry went from universally loved, to universally hated in a generation.