It's time to stop college legacy admissions

[bluestateguy]

We need congressional legislation cutting off federal funds to all colleges that use alumni legacy admissions. It should be a priority in a Democratic Congress, if there is a Democratic Congress.

[imfreaky]

1. Isn't that what Harvard is trying to do now?

[bluestateguy]

3. No

That's early admissions. Totally different.

[lapfog_1]

2. but but but

* wouldn't be a college graduate!!!

(yeah, I know, Yale is a private university).

[MadHound]

4. Which legacy admissions policies specifically? And why

Most legacy admission practices that I know about simply offer a discount on the tuition price. They don't offer a break on admission standards. Why do you wish to deny people a way to save money for their kids education? Hard enough as is to pay for college, any little break helps:shrug:

[Captain Hilts]

5. There was a study that showed that legacy admissions had lower...

SATs than the rest of the student body.

That was about 15 years ago.

It's called 'affirmative action' for rich kids!

[MadHound]

6. Again, is that legacy admissions that simply give a break on price

Or is it the variety that give a break on the admissions criteria? Frankly, I know a lot of people who either wouldn't have gotten a college education, or their children wouldn't have gotten a college education if it weren't for the price break that they received due to legacy admissions. These aren't rich people by any stretch, in fact of several of them come from less than well off families.

[buddhamama]

8. legacy admissions

are given special consideration.

for more reading on the issue:
http://aconstrainedvision.blogspot.com/2005/03/legacy-admissions.html

[Captain Hilts]

15. I've never heard of the price break policy at any college....

I'm not familiar with it.

In the Ivy League, legacy admissions have lower academic records upon admission than those that earned their way in. I think that's what we're talking about.

[MadHound]

16. OK, it's an Ivy League thing then eh.

I can agree, don't give an academic break to anybody, no matter who their parents are.

However out here in the Big XII, land grant universities, legacy students get a break on tuition price, however they still have to meet the academic requirements. Different schools, different practices:shrug:

[Captain Hilts]

21. As long as they're held to the same academic standards...it's okay.

But that's interesting about the tuition break.

That's not an East Coast thing. I've never heard of it.

I wonder how public universities get away with that.

[Dorian Gray]

37. I've never heard of a tuition break for legacies,

either. That must be specific to your region. Here, at Boston College, where I attended university, I know that there are a lot of legacies. And since I met my husband at college, I would love for my chidren to go there (if they wanted to and if they got in!). It's freaking expensive, though, so I WISH they had tuition breaks for legacies! Rather, it seems that they give priority to legacies who donate a building or two!

[imfreaky]

9. That's an interesting point of view.

[The Backlash Cometh]

12. Affirmative Access, when it involves wealthy kids and backroom

deals which are killing us at the local level.

[LostinVA]

18. It IS "Affirmative Action" for rich kids

The ones who don't need it...

[Horse with no Name]

20. It buys legitimacy

When someone that is a fuck up like Bush...a degree from Yale made him acceptable to many Americans. He would have never got in on his own merit.
I highly doubt that Americans would have voted for a "C" student from a community college, which is about all he could have mustered without his money.

[LostinVA]

23. BINGO

[dsc]

13. You are thinking of those college bond programs

legacy admissions are children and other relatives of graduates who don't get a price break but do get a break on standards.

[TroglodyteScholar]

30. I knew a legacy who was smart enough for school...

...but got so strung out on hard drugs that he kept flunking out. And amazingly, he kept getting "second" chances because his father was a politically influential alum -- a judge who made significant gifts every year.

Granted, this was a private school...but someone without the ties to the school never would've gotten the second chance, much less three or four of them.

As far as I know, the guy never graduated. Last time I saw him, he'd cooked his brain to the point that he'd just walk around giggling to himself and doing those swoopy hand motions that kids do at raves.

[splat]

7. So would they lose more from fed funds or from lost bequests? n/t

[annabanana]

17. THAT is the operative question...

You'd have to have access to their balance sheets to know if the federal funding outweighs the endowments.

[HereSince1628]

10. I don't agree.

Yes, legacy admissions can be undemocratic. But the good these programs can promote for the many override the unfairness that advantages relatively few.

Admissions based on substandard college board scores are common. Admissions committees frequently review dozens of these things every year and my experience is that more _non-legacy_ students than legacy students get admitted with ACT scores in the mid-teens. Point being that most legacy students, like most other students, meet entrance requirements.

Sub-standard students often need and take advantage of special programs that are only available because of federal funds. I can think of dozens of kids from working class families who would never have received college educations if admissions didn't take risks and admit them and have federal dollars to help remediate them. If you strike federal funds because a few kids get special treatment you hurt many many more.

Additionally private schools have a long history of promoting legacies in families. These families contribute to recruiting and also to fund raising. When Grandchild is going to the same college as Grandma and Mom and Dad, it substantially increases the family's interest in donating to the institution beyond tuition dollars. Call it the subversion of democratic access to education in the interest of money, but this process helps many struggling colleges.

So knowing what else rides on your proposal, I'm willing to put up with the unfairness of it.

[The Backlash Cometh]

14. I partly agree, but in cases of hardship.

My son and his best friend, "L" were two totally different kinds of kids, but they became friends in that innocent age in elementary when you're still blind to outside pressure from the peers. Our relationship with the family became even more cemented when "L" lost his father in the fourth grade. Obviously, the family went through a great deal of adjustment. "L" spent a lot of time at our home as he grew up and we got to see him at this worst and at his best.

Without his dad, "L" started slacking off with his homework. A very bright kid, but one who decided that he was not going to waste his school years studying because he wanted to have fun. My son and he had a short separation in the middle school years when my son's introverted personality made him a target for the popular wannabe kids and he was subjected to ridicule and called "gay." He was even accused of kissing a boy, and even though the boy who claimed he did it admitted he made it up, it made no difference. My son was stigmatized. "L," wanting to always be in the popular group, distanced himself from my son at this time.

For the high school years, my son made the best choice of his life. He went to a magnet school that not only took him away from the taunting peers, but one which put him with kids who were just as awkward as he was, but shared the same academic interests. "L," rediscovered my son during this time because he realized that my son would make it to a good college, where "L"s popular friends would be lucky to get into community college. My son and "L" were a wonderful compliment for each other. My son instilled a desire for college in "L" and "L" made sure that my son wasn't dressed like a complete geek.

Anyway, "L" never did make the academic grades. He fluffed off most of his primary education, but then it came time to write an admission's essay to the college of his choice, he wrote a slam dunk. In short, "L" admitted that the death of his father distracted him and that he didn't work as hard as he should have, but now that he was an adult, he was more focused and wanted a second chance. He sent one application to one school. It was a state school that both of his parents graduated from, so he was a legacy, and I know that it was that one factor which got him into that college.

I am a member of a minority group and I know that I got into college over thirty years ago based on Affirmative Action. My SAT scores sucked. My regular grades were acceptable, but the standardized test was totally alien to me. Back then we never prepared for them, the way they prepare for them today We were also told back then that there was no point in taking them again because you couldn't really improve your score. I was accepted into a private school, anyways, and it had less than 2% minorities at the time, so you do the Math. By the way, I didn't take one cent of public tax dollars to pay for my education. My dad paid every penny out of his pocket. I always said, my dad forfeited our childhood in order to pay for our college education. I never had the kind of fun that "L" was allowed to enjoy because my parents were always there to instill a mindset of hard work because they believed that we had to do our best, always, or we would never get a chance in life.

Now, looking back I know how hard both my kids study to get good grades and I know for a fact that most of their more caucasian friends aren't working quite as hard. Most of those white friends will be accepted into state schools, but if they don't, I'm sure they'll blame it on Affirmative Action. I know how "L" fluffed off his primary education, but I absolutely don't resent that he got in as a legacy. In "L"s case, I think the legacy option was a phenomenal opportunity for a bright child who could have fallen through the cracks. I absolutely don't think that same option should be provided for arrogant pricks who are born with a silver spoon in their mouths and grow up too entitled to bother to empathize with people who suffer hardships in their lives or who have to work hard to earn every break they get.

[Flying Dream Blues]

19. Excellent points. Special treatment goes both ways...you don't

want to alienate those who provide scholarship money to the students who need financial aid. Special consideration is given to minority and low-SES kids all the time, which is as it should be, so I don't have a problem with giving a few rich kids a break on their SATs. They might let you in, but rarely do they keep you in if you can't make the grade.

[Skidmore]

11. Now say you and your kids and grandkids all apply to go to the local

state university because it is more affordable that sending them out of state or to a private college. Are you going to treat this scenario as legacy admissions?

[Odin2005]

22. A law against it won't stop anything.

The rich will find a way to get around it with a wink and a nod by the higher ups in the universities. America is a plutocracy, not a democracy; if the rich want something they will get it.

[onenote]

26. should all preferences be eliminated?

or just legacy preferences.

[leftofthedial]

24. It's time to stop legacy everything

100% inheritance tax on everything exceeding the median value of a home.

Outlaw legacy admissions at any college that receives federal money.

[onenote]

25. so, if mom and dad die in an accident

You'd say put junior out in the street? And what about family heirlooms etc...just sell everything off?

[leftofthedial]

27. pretty much

end trust funds too. Anything above average money, tax 100%.

kill the rich.

[onenote]

31. I'm curious. How do define "rich"?

[leftofthedial]

35. index it to cost of living

say, 500% of median cost of living.

[Missy Vixen]

34. Wow, bitter much?

>100% inheritance tax on everything exceeding the median value of a home.<

I received an inheritance four months ago for $1700 from a distant relative. Under your scenario, I would not have been able to keep one thin dime of the money.

I also was the executrix of my mother's estate fifteen years ago. I think there was $20,000 for the three of us after the bills were paid. Again, under your scenario, gone.

You need to seriously rethink. You might also want to look up the inheritance laws in your state. As others in the thread have mentioned, you'd be taxing those who work for a living much more harshly than those who don't.

Julie

[bluestateguy]

36. That's a good point

Only the Paris Hiltons of the world should have to pay the estate tax, and even then not 100%.

The poster forgets that many Americans are forced to rely upon inheritance for retirement money because they can't afford to save much while they are working.

[warrens]

28. Why?

That's how colleges build up generational loyalty and a true culture. It looks bad when it's Yale and Bushes; it looks great when it's a state university trying to attract top students.

[Avalux]

29. I wish they had stopped it 42 years ago.

If they had, Bush would have never gotten into Yale.

[sofa king]

32. C Student checking in.

I was a C student with a potential legacy foot-in-the-door to UVa. I didn't get that foot in the door. Instead, I had to go to a far less prestigous school and bust my ass to make dean's list, only to have UVa deny me again.

So I transferred to Virginia Tech instead, where I did fairly well, largely because of the study habits I learned in my first year of college. Today, I am the only BA history major I know with a job in my field. For the past eight years I've been too busy applying my expertise to the real world to go back to school; if I do decide to go back, it'll be a piece of cake.

I have no idea where I would have wound up had I been allowed into the (other) University of Virginia, but I know this for sure: I wouldn't have lucked into my current esoteric line of work because I got there thanks to a fellow Hokie. Many happy moments and small victories would have eluded me, perhaps to be replaced by others but then again, perhaps not.

I'm never going to be President either, which is probably best for both my country and me.

[KamaAina]

33. Yale actually tightened its policies on legacies in '69

one year after passing off Gee Dubya Bush** '68 to Harvard. It still doesn't hurt to be named Bush, or Bass or Mellon or whatever, but these days you also have to show that you yourself have something on the ball.

I am convinced that at some point during that process, one of the deans said, "Take that Bush kid, for example. You know, the one who wore lampshades on his head at all the Deke parties. What an abomination! We must ensure that that never, ever happens again!"