Rachel Maddow on the motivations behind torture.

[BuyingThyme]

Rachel Maddow was discussing the motivations behind Chimpy's use of torture -- and behind his push to defend his use of torture.

She correctly pointed out that no reliable information can be obtained via torture, thus there must be other reasons for doing it -- and for defending it.

She came up with two motives, but I think she overlooked the most important one:

Bush uses torture not to break down suspects, but to break down the people doing the torturing. It's very simple.

Bush and Cheney cannot achieve their objectives without first building loyal followings in the military and intelligence communities.

By ordering people to torture, Bush is garnering the ultimate loyalty. Once you get people to torture, getting them to lie and steal is nothing.

That's the way it works.

It's very simple.

[Joanne98]

1. Just like the Mafia!

[Sapere aude]

2. There was a famous study back in the 50's I think. It involved people

giving electric shocks to other people behind a two way mirror. The people thought they were giving shocks but they really were not. The study was to see if people would obey even though to obey meant hurting other people.

[Hamlette]

6. Stanley Milgram did the experiment

he thought the experiment would show Germans were ore obedient to authority than others. He was shocked at how many Yale students would "kill" their fellow students just because someone in a lab coat told them it was important to the experiment.

It was an ungodly percentage.

His book about it is Obedience to Authority (not a self help book but Bush might want it to be)

[BuyingThyme]

8. Cheney wears a lab coat.

[Donnachaidh]

9. and he keeps repeating Is it Safe?

Is it Safe?

[BlueStorm]

14. Marathon Man!!!

Good movie though I was a bit weirded out by it.


On topic: Most people that torture are known to have a low level of empathy and high level of sadism. They would be considered psychopathic and probably would be jailed. There are probably numerous motives for them to want to torture others.

Bleh, I'm too tired right now to even come up with something coherent.

Blue

[Hamlette]

3. what did she identify as the motives? Link? n/t

[BuyingThyme]

5. She gave two. I'm having trouble recalling the first one, but the second

one had to do with Bush needing to show he can get away with it -- with showing he's the guy in charge.

Anybody have the first one?

[BuyingThyme]

7. Oh yeah, I think the first motive was 1, 2, & 3 in #4 below.

[Rockstone]

4. reasons

that I thought of of the top of my head

1. paint dems as "not tough enough to do the job of keeping us safe"

2. use against political opponants.

3. the threat is made against the country at large.

4. cover crimes already comitted with some sort of retroactive authorization.

[Nikki Stone 1]

17. I also think the whole debate is about intimidating other ME nations

that Junior intends to invade. If they think the US will torture them, they might capitulate sooner.

Of course, it isn't working in Iraq, but the fact that a thing doesn't work is not a reason for not doing it--at least with this administration.

[Ioo]

10. I think you are highly overthinking it. They are Just Mean Evil People.

I think they torture because they are dumb and simple. They think that is the "right" thinkg to do.

Simple and dumb...

[BuyingThyme]

11. They know exactly what they're doing.

[retread]

12. There are mean, malicious, vile, petty sub-humans who react to

stressful situations in a typically brutish manner. One such sub-human is our pResident. He couldn't conceive of any other way to respond. Reason has little to do with it. A scorpion doesn't reason before it stings.

[BuyingThyme]

13. kcik

[havocmom]

15. Correct. And think back to 'prayer pledge cards' troops were given

to fill out and sign if they wanted to 'pledge to pray for the president' Early on in the invasion, they wanted to have a list of troops who would be more malleable than the norm. Thought right then, the junta taking a page from Saddam and building foundation for an American 'Republican Guard' to protect special Republicans.

Didn't the Nazis use people who had mild to moderate sadistic streaks to do their dirty work and keep the masses (at home and in occupied territories) under constant fear so they could be controlled? Find the sadist wannabes, give them a taste of power, let them run amok in their little area, and it becomes an addictive drug. They need bigger fixes and will do whatever it takes to get a fix.

[The2ndWheel]

16. It's about control

And I'm sure the doctors and scientists that are hanging out in the torture chambers get some good research out of it. How far can we take the human body? What else could we tell DARPA to come up with?

[MamaBear]

18. Once You Get People to Torture ...

Once you get people to commit acts of torture, they have committed any number of crimes. Criminals need to protect each other or face the consequences of their criminal acts. Once you have induced (or in this case, maybe seduced is the better term) somebody into criminal behavior, they will always be in fear that you will remove the cloak of protection you have offered.

This generates a certain type of loyalty. Criminal organizations understand it well, that is why new members often will have to commit a crime that is known to certain individuals in the organization (or at the organization's behest) in order to gain membership.

The poster who suggested the creation of an american republican guard may be on the right track.

On the other hand, it is probably all of the above, in a toxic stew.

[BuyingThyme]

19. When you accept known neo-Nazis, Skinheads, and other

hate mongers into your ranks, it streamlines the process.