Don't Get Sucked into this "Religious War"

[stepnw1f]

It's all based on bigotry... I'm seeing plenty of disturbing posts here... yes, even on DU. Bigotry of Islam.. it shouldn't even be tolerated. All bigotry does is inflame the hatred of the otherside while masking the REAL issues. There are folks who WANT YOU TO HATE MUSLIMS and ALL PEOPLE who follow ISLAM.

It's ALL the right wing has left to continue their war. SNAP OUT OF IT!

[JuniperLea]

1. You are correct

It's all just another flavor of bigotry... just another flavor of the Kool-Aid.

[bluerum]

2. Fear and hate mongers on the RW!! Shocked! Shocked I tell you! nt

[lvx35]

3. Hear hear!

We shouldn't be bigoted to people on the basis of faith (or lack thereof). Its a divide and conquer strategy from the right.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

4. Agreed.

It's like the hatred of communism during the Cold War mixed in with Jim Crowism.

[stepnw1f]

5. I Have to Say...

good job in that other thread... we can't let each other get sucked into this crap.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

6. Nevermind the bigots...

the problem is there's plenty of people who aren't sticking up against bigotry for a variety of not very good reasons.

[stepnw1f]

7. agreed (nt)

[rug]

8. Bush's policies really are rooted in the 16th century.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

9. I'm not planning to

I agree with you, it's all rooted in bigotry.

I saw something on the TV today, I don't know what network, but it wasn't cable. It was a clip of film of a small Somalian child with a toy gun pointed at the film crew pretending to be shooting. This was while they were covering the story of the nun who was shot.

It sent a chill down my spine but not for the reason they had intended.

Edit typo

[maxsolomon]

10. DU's real problem is the predjudice AGAINST bigots!

why can't you tolerate intolerance? YOU are the anti-bigot bigots!

gotcha! it was :sarcasm:!

[AlamoDemoc]

11. K&R....you make an excellent point

[Marrah_G]

12. Seems to be enough intolerance to spread around

The Pope screwed up royally in a time where tensions are incredibly high and he should have realized the power his words carry now. The Muslims are also screwing up in their reaction to the words with violence rather then choosing peaceful protests. There has been as much Anti-Catholic sentiment here as there has been Anti-Muslim sentiment. Both are wrong.

Here in Massachusetts we have a HUGE Catholic community. Almost everyone I knew growing up was Catholic. This is also a VERY blue state where Catholics traditionally voted Democratic. That is only recently starting to change as many Catholics feel disconnected from the party. I have seen this in my own family, with some choosing not to vote at all in 2004.

Please remember that we have people of all faiths in our party and try to be respectful. It would be my hope that we are better then the RW Fundies. There is room in our tent for all faiths. Hurtful words drive wedges between us and in the long run only make the other side stronger.

We are the party of tolerance and inclusion of all races and religions.

At least I hope we still are.

[Karenina]

18. "The Muslims are also screwing up ..."

WHO are "the Muslims" you speak of?

[Retired AF Dem]

26. The ones burning churches

and of course they couldn't get that right, burning non roman catholic churches. The killing of a innocent nun constitutes screwing up to me. Well if this proves anything to me is that there are Muslims out there that don't condone free speech. I have no use for any group of people, religion or political party that is against free speech. And the sad part is it is rampant everywhere.

[Karenina]

31. "There should be limits to free speech."

The bigots come out at night, hey!
The bigots come out at night, woohoo!
The bigots come out at night, Ai carumba!
The bigots come out at night!!!!

[Retired AF Dem]

32. Just so I'm clear about this

are you calling me a bigot? Inquiring minds want to know.

[Karenina]

40. The quote is from *Commander Bunnypants

Can't remember the name of the group I'm parodying. Same beat as "Another One Bites the Dust" IIRC. Too many tunes on the iPod. Can't hardly keep track.

[lvx35]

33. Good point!

Its all about free speech, and a big part of free speech is having some tolerance for what people say - we need to be looking more at what people do. In my mind the Christian, Muslim, atheist or whatever that feeds hungry children and helps the world have a lot more in common with each other than members of their own take on things that cause destruction and death.

[CarlVK]

63. You're blaming the whole group for the acts of a few?

Tell me you're joking

[niallmac]

13. It's is important for our neocons that we keep hate alive.n/t

[Retired AF Dem]

14. Islam is great if you are a male

It is a male religion. Men are it. Women are just property, cant drive, cant work, ride in the back of the bus. You have one purpose in life and that is to give your husbands male babies. As a male I would never say anything against Islam.

[rsr1771]

15. Islam, like other organized religions...

is very repressive. Sure the Pope shouldn't have said his dumb comments, but when I see the Islamic response to it I am sickened. They are going to prove they are not violent by killing nuns and burning churches? I know its not PC say bad things about Islam, but I find it a very backwards and hostile religion.

[Jacobin]

16. Then let the muslim women do what christian women did

Fight to change the laws.
Christian women in this country were not in much better shape than muslim women in the U.S. a hundred years ago.

Read the Civil Codes of European countries and common law of U.S. states. Women couldn't own property unless a male was in charge. They were baby factories who often died in childbirth to make farm hands and factory workers.

They couldn't vote not that long ago.

We can't change the world, except by example. Bombing Afghanis or Iranians will only make them more reactionary.

They will have to do it themselves and no doubt it will take a century or more.

[Retired AF Dem]

28. Bombing Afghanis or Iranians will only make them more reactionary

You are right about that, I guess that is what happened to us isnt it?

[mhatrw]

17. And how about Catholicism?

Save the baby even if it causes the mother's death?

Don't ever have sex (or masturbate) if not for the purpose of procreation within a sacred marriage?

[demosincebirth]

22. I see you don't know much about catholics

[Warren DeMontague]

23. ...So the Catholic Church has lifted its prohibition on birth control?

Wow. It's about fucking time.

Now, if only they would stop hypocritically preaching at consenting adults about their sex lives while working overtime to shield pedophile priests from criminal prosecution.

[demosincebirth]

25. You don't know squat.

[Warren DeMontague]

30. Oh, really?

Okay. I don't know squat. So, Please provide links proving that

A) The Catholic Church HAS lifted its ban on birth control.

and

B) These stories, (among MANY others) for instance, aren't true:

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,1020400,00.html

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/09/08/gonzaga.leary.abuse.ap/index.html?section=cnn_us

http://cbs5.com/localwire/localfsnews/bcn/2006/08/25/n/HeadlineNews/BISHOP/resources_bcn_html


...

[Retired AF Dem]

34. Mind boggling isnt it

it is ok to hate Catholics and Jews, but say one bad thing about Islam and you are branded a bigot.

[Warren DeMontague]

36. No, what's mind boggling is you don't seem to be able to comprehend

my simple, straightforward, extremly specific posts. If you can find factual inaccuracies in 'em, I'm glad to hear about it.

And for the record, I'm EXTREMELY critical of fundamentalist Islam, dude.

[smirkymonkey]

42. Yes, that's how it works here.

You never see the Bigot Patrol on duty when Christians or Jews are being criticized or even bashed. But there is not to be one word of criticism when it comes to Muslims, you see?

:eyes:

[Warren DeMontague]

48. I also like how criticism of the policies & hypocrisy of the VATICAN

...things most Catholics themselves don't agree with...

amounts to "Catholic Bashing"! :crazy:

[smirkymonkey]

54. Hey, you won't find me defending the Vatican or Christianity.

My point was, that most people who DO bash and/or criticize Christianity on this board, have absolutely ZERO tolerance for any hint of criticism toward Muslims. I don't stick up for any of them and I frequently criticize all of them (ok, I do a little bashing too), but that doesn't mean I don't notice hypocrisy when I see it.

[Warren DeMontague]

59. I agree. nt

[mhatrw]

71. Oh, really?

What would you like to know about us?

We believe in one God,

the Father, the Almighty
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is seen and unseen.

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,

the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
one in Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation

he came down from heaven

by the power of the Holy Spirit

he was born of the Virgin Mary, and became man.

For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;

he suffered, died, and was buried.

On the third day he rose again

in fulfillment of the Scriptures;

he ascended into heaven

and is seated at the right hand of the Father.

He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,

and his kingdom will have no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of Life,

who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified.
He has spoken through the Prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,

and the life of the world to come. Amen.

[AlamoDemoc]

19. you need to educate yourself on the subject

Here's breif outline of status of woman in Islam;

The right of females to seek knowledge is not different from that of males. Prophet Muhammad (P.) said:

"Seeking knowledge is mandatory for every Muslim". (AlBayhaqi). Muslim as used here including both males and females.

As a wife:

The Qur'an clearly indicates that marriage is sharing between the two halves of the society, and that its objectives, beside perpetuating human life, are emotional well-being and spiritual harmony. Its bases are love and mercy.

Among the most impressive verses in the Qur'an about marriage is the following.

"And among His signs is this: That He created mates for you from yourselves that you may find rest, peace of mind in them, and He ordained between you love and mercy. Lo, herein indeed are signs for people who reflect." (Qur'an 30:2 1).

According to Islamic Law, women cannot be forced to marry anyone without their consent.

Ibn Abbas reported that a girl came to the Messenger of God, Muhammad (P.), and she reported that her father had forced her to marry without her consent. The Messenger of God gave her the choice . . . (between accepting the marriage or invalidating it). (Ibn Hanbal No. 2469). In another version, the girl said: "Actually I accept this marriage but I wanted to let women know that parents have no right (to force a husband on them)" (Ibn Maja, No. 1873).

Besides all other provisions for her protection at the time of marriage, it was specifically decreed that woman has the full right to her Mahr, a marriage gift, which is presented to her by her husband and is included in the nuptial contract, and that such ownership does not transfer to her father or husband. The concept of Mahr in Islam is neither an actual or symbolic price for the woman, as was the case in certain cultures, but rather it is a gift symbolizing love and affection.

The rules for married life in Islam are clear and in harmony with upright human nature. In consideration of the physiological and psychological make-up of man and woman, both have equal rights and claims on one another, except for one responsibility, that of leadership. This is a matter which is natural in any collective life and which is consistent with the nature of man.

The history of Muslims is rich with women of great achievements in all walks of life from as early as the seventh century (B.C.)

It is impossible for anyone to justify any mistreatment of woman by any decree of rule embodied in the Islamic Law, nor could anyone dare to cancel, reduce, or distort the clear-cut legal rights of women given in Islamic Law.

Throughout history, the reputation, chastity and maternal role of Muslim women were objects of admiration by impartial observers.

It is also worthwhile to state that the status which women reached during the present era was not achieved due to the kindness of men or due to natural progress. It was rather achieved through a long struggle and sacrifice on woman's part and only when society needed her contribution and work, more especial!; during the two world wars, and due to the escalation of technological change.

In the case of Islam such compassionate and dignified status was decreed, not because it reflects the environment of the seventh century, nor under the threat or pressure of women and their organizations, but rather because of its intrinsic truthfulness.

If this indicates anything, it would demonstrate the divine origin of the Qur'an and the truthfulness of the message of Islam, which, unlike human philosophies and ideologies, was far from proceeding from its human environment, a message which established such humane principles as neither grew obsolete during the course of time and after these many centuries, nor can become obsolete in the future. After all, this is the message of the All-Wise and all-knowing God whose wisdom and knowledge are far beyond the ultimate in human thought and progress.

http://www.islamfortoday.com/womensrightsbadawi.htm

[lvx35]

37. I saw a really interesting film on that in class...

basically you had these western women looking at veiled women in Islam saying "they are so oppressed" and then you had these veilled women in Egypt looking at naked anorexic models in american magazines saying "they are so exploited and oppressed! They must bear their bodies and be judged by them instead of their character!" It was something else to see the flipside of all that stuff.

[BlueStorm]

39. Thank you AlamoDemoc!!!

I try to explain this to people, that Islam actually is quite liberating for women but people just don't get it. Most people view the Prophet Mohammed as this monster or something.

I try to explain that his words may have been mistranslated, tossed or revised due to the culture that was around. It is not Islam that treats the women this way, it is the millenia-old traditions that do.

Blue

[demosincebirth]

21. I'd like couple of more wives.

[treestar]

43. That depends

There are times/places where the Muslim religion is also more tolerant of women.

As to Christianity, well, it's not innocent of male dominance either.

[CarlVK]

67. I work with a few Muslim women who'd disagree with you

They are multiple degree holders, by the way. Not what you'd call stupid people. And their faith makes them very happy. I should know, as they've bent my ear about it for more hours than I can count.

[Warren DeMontague]

20. Islam isn't a problem. Christianity isn't a problem. Fundy nuts of both?

...ARE a problem.

[lvx35]

38. (applause) nt

[ComerPerro]

56. that's a cop-out if I've ever seen one

"I love everyone, just not the extremists"

[Warren DeMontague]

61. Fine. It's a cop-out.

Clearly, I'm wrong, and fundamentalism -in all its stripes- isn't a problem. :eyes:

Also, "Christianity" and "Islam" are concepts. Fundamentalists are people.

[Tyo]

24. Both Islam and Christianity are authoritarian and oppressive

Both worship a jealous, all too human "God" and both have long histories of causing bloodshed and pain to their own believers and to people of other cultures that they have come into contact with. Islam is quite a bit younger than Christianity and at this stage in its history it tends to be the more overtly violent of the two. But really, I don't see that there is much to choose between them.

They've been fighting each other for centuries. If their struggles didn't threaten the rest of us it would be a matter of indifference to me what they did to each other.

[Beelzebud]

27. Imagine no religion. It's easy if you try...

[Arugula Latte]

41. Oh, believe me, I'm trying!

Unfortunately, it doesn't make the major cults (religion) and "faith" in supernatural mythology all go away ... :(

[genie_weenie]

29. Yep! Can't criticize Islam without

everyone calling you a bigot and stating you are attacking Muslims... There can be no delineation between the ideology and the believers...

Islam is sacrosanct. Now I wish they someone would dig up Voltaire and crush his bones for that evil Mahomet play he wrote. Fucking Bigot! http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/06065/666058.stm

[lvx35]

44. The problem is everything is so glued together.

culture, language, family lines, even race. Islam is so tied to middle eastern culture and arabic peoples its really hard to separate the two. Same with Judaism.

[genie_weenie]

46. "Arabis Peoples"? Indonesia is the most populous

Islamic nation and they are not of Arabic descent. Also China has quite a few Muslims. So guess what Islam is pan-racial. And anyway Race is a bullshit construct used to seperate peoples...

There is no doubt The Pope was attemtping to rally Christendom to equate Events of Today with the Death of the Byzantine Empire at the hands of the Turk (who are also not Arabs and were recent converts to Islam and therefore filled with Holy Zeal).

[lvx35]

49. The point is that its a cultural/ethnic divide.

And its very much seen that way in the middle east. When my family members were living in Saudi Arabia, they automatically were classified as "Christian" because they were white and spoke english. You can't talk to them about it as some ideology they are holding that's up for debate, its a deep part of who they are.

[genie_weenie]

50. Well, just because they hold it dear

doesn't mean the rest of the world has to and isn't that the problem? Despite the 1 billion people who believe that the Angel Gabriel actually gave the words of the Koran to Muhammad in a cave and not that he was hallucinating or making them up on his own does not mean the other 5 billion have to respect that idea.

And the whole divide is the problem because I can discuss ideology (Socialism, Anarcho-Capitalism, Democracy, Atheism, Favorite Football Team) without feeling a person who disagrees is challenging and attacking me on some level... U

[lvx35]

52. I think I basically agree with you here.

I think you're absolutely right, actually. The tricky part is figuring how to get others up to that level with their ideas.

[Leopolds Ghost]

74. And who assimilated Byzantine civilization n/t

[treestar]

45. Not true. The criticism comes in where letting the media destroy

all perspective and trying to get us to take the acts of the worst Muslims for the acts of all.

[Hatalles]

58. I don't buy that argument at all.

Read this article:

http://world.mediamonitors.net/content/view/full/33816

It's funny how criticism of violent and radical interpretations of Islam masquerade as "criticism of Islam." It's the lumping of all Muslims and the broadbrushing of Islam that is at the root of all the bigotry.

[Warren DeMontague]

35. Honest criticism of Islam, particularly extremist strains, doesn't

automatically equate to "lets go blow up these people!"

Sheesh. Just like the folks here who argue that unless you somehow manage to see Ahmadinejad as Nelson frikken Mandela, you must be gearing up for war with Iran. :eyes:

[CarlVK]

64. There's such a thing as diplomacy

especially in today's world with the situation between Islam and other faiths. Discretion is the art of an intelligent person. Do you think Pope footNMouth used much discretion in his decision to likely inflame and incite Muslims at a time when its really not a good idea to do so?

[Warren DeMontague]

72. Nope. I think it was a bad idea. I think he should confine himself

to cleaning the crap out of his own house before he throws rocks at other people's, frankly.

But that doesn't mean there isn't a place for honest criticism of repressive or violent interpretations of Islam, for example, on this website.

[iamahaingttta]

47. Actually, I'm rooting for this "Religious War"!

I want them all to kill each other off. All the religious whackos on all sides. Let them kill each other off. ENCOURAGE them to kill each other off. They all need to die. Now. All for a bunch of silly made up mumbo-jumbo. Let them die for it.

The problem with this, of course, is that they drag all the rest of us into their insanity. My Big Daddy's dick is bigger than your Big Daddy's dick and then they start shooting at each other and it's always the women and children who bear the brunt of it. That's what sucks about all of this. It's always the innocents who pay the highest price. If we could put all the Islamic fuckwads and all the Christian freeptards and all Jewish freakfarts and all the Hindu frumpyfruits in a room together and let them kill each other off, the world would finally be a good place to live, and would probably be largely free of violence.

But that's not gonna happen...

[lvx35]

51. Wow, have you considered running for President?

Of the atheist 15% of the US, I really think you could be popular with the .05% that wants all religious people to die! :)

[iamahaingttta]

55. Yeah, whatever.

I'm not qualified.

[Tyo]

57. Well there IS a price to be paid for fanaticism.

And we're not the ones with the death fixation. They are, Christian and Muslim alike.

[lvx35]

60. Its just a bunch of human beings...

and the truth is, though something like 80% of the world is religious, 80% of people are not going ballistic and killing each other off. the problem is much smaller and much more specific than you think.

[Tyo]

66. I'm not saying that fanatics are in the majority on either side

But if those who are fanatics choose to focus on fighting and killing each other rather than making my life difficult I'm all for it.

[lvx35]

68. hehehe. Hey, now THAT could be a great new reality TV show!!!

"welcome to FANATIC ISLAND! The show where the worlds craziest religious fanatics are placed on a small Island..there are many groups, but only one winner will survive till the final round and be chosen for the grand prize...Rapture to the afterlife of their choice!!!!"

[Tyo]

69. Yes!

I will expect royalties.

[lvx35]

70. hehe! ;) nt

[bonito]

53. Right ,Its OIL

Protecting Oil (For our interest)and protecting Israel (outnumbered)and logistics a foot hold in the middle east.

[kineneb]

62. I sure don't hate Muslims, or Christians, etc.

I just do not want to be proselytized by any religion, but they sure have the right to believe whatever they wish. I am Buddhist and play music for the Sunday service at a United Methodist Church!

Their right to convert others stops with my right to not believe in their variety of religion. Period. The problem is with the teachings of the fundimentalist wings of the major religions, which, not surprisingly don't follow their own scriptures. And yes, I have read quite a bit of the Bible, especially the Synoptic Gospels, and the whole Koran, in translation. I have also read some of the Gathas (Zoroastrian), the Dead Sea Scrolls, the Nag Hamadi Codex and lots of writings on the various flavors of Buddhism.

Besides, half my family are nominally Muslim; what am I going to do, hate my step-father and all his family? They are nice people, and it doesn't matter to me what they believe.

[Imagevision]

65. Don't Get Sucked in? we're way past that point of no return

[nolabels]

73. Yea, sounds like a good idea, don't suck

Last time I checked up on it some people were claiming that religion gives them specific rights to kill people.