Do you have any radical opinion that you are afraid of voicing

[hyphenate]

even here at DU?

Something that makes you hesitate because it's something you know isn't likely to go over too well?

The one I have a little trouble with is one that often creates arguments with people, but it's one I will always maintain.

I love animals, and hate when I hear they have been abused. People who harm animals with intent and pleasure are evil. They know what they are doing is wrong, and they will never stop it simply because someone wants them to, because they derive too much enjoyment of it.

My opinion is that those who torture animals need to be sentenced to the highest and maximum punishment. If that is the same as for murder, so much the better. Execution or life in prison. Preferably the former.

That's it. I cannot and won't put man on a different level than the rest of the animals. By torturing some helpless life form, a "man" is showing he is as evil and ruthless as he can possibly be, and should be punished accordingly.

[Lerkfish]

1. yes, but I"m afraid to tell you

:)

[Glorfindel]

2. Me, too..

in fact, I've had a post removed because I quoted Thomas Jefferson and indicated that I agreed with his statement. :scared:

[shadowknows69]

13. I'll bet I can guess the quote

but I'm too scared to reprint it.

[hyphenate]

18. Many of us quote from TJ

One of the most eloquent founding fathers in history of any country!

I mean, honestly, can Marie Antoinette be considered eloquent by saying "Let them eat cake!" (Yes, I know that's not what she said--it's a joke!)

[madmusic]

69. Post it!

I'm not afraid.

[Glorfindel]

71. OK, here goes!

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

[madmusic]

77. That's good. Here's one of my favorites.

Alexander Hamilton quoted in United States v. Brown,
381 U.S. 437, 444:

"If legislature can disfranchise any number of
citizens at pleasure by general descriptions, it may
soon confine all the votes to a small number of
partisans, and establish an aristocracy or an
oligarchy; if it may banish at discretion all those
whom particular circumstances render obnoxious, without
hearing or trial, no man can be safe, nor know when he
may be the innocent victim of a prevailing faction.
The name of liberty applied to such a government, would
be a mockery of common sense."

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data2/circs/2nd/037862p.pdf

[NotGivingUp]

146. and that post got removed before?

[Glorfindel]

158. Yep...I actually did say something like

"I think the tree is long overdue for a drink," also.

[EFerrari]

4. This could be a really short thread. lol

[hyphenate]

19. Could be

But if some people actually can post something they think is not quite acceptable, a discussion could grow from it that isn't a flamefest.

[mmonk]

3. Only if the founding fathers are considered radical

(and their ideas today actually are).

[izzie]

5. I lived in the deep South and I have trouble with my thinking on it.

Frankly I had a very hard time. I could never understand how some perfectly shitty white people could look down their empty minds at very nice black people. At the time I had a very long Germany name and was often called a dirty Jew Yankee. Since I go back to the Mayflower it always made me laugh which got me into more trouble. Southerns, at the time, did not like to feel you were laughing at them. I had to learn to shut up and to keep my kids from voicing what they thought but only at home. We had to be there. My husband was in the service. I frankly lived all over and usually liked every place but never was I so happy to leave. This was when King was around. I even hated seeing the US flag under the starts and bars. My ancestors fought in that war. One lost a leg. I have never got this time in to the proper place to think about it in a good way. I do try.

[hyphenate]

21. I think part of that is simply

that southerners tend to be very community oriented, and if you are new to an area, you are not accepted quickly because you haven't been part of the history of that place. I look at the south through a bit of a taint myself, only because I'm a true Yankee, and would likely find it just as difficult living there myself.

It's not so much you, as an individual, I don't think. It's more of a policy of excluding anyone who they might not trust or know. You are suspicious because you are an outsider, ergo, they treat you differently and thus become whatever they think of you in their mind.

Unlike living in the north, where we move around fairly often, engage in many jobs or careers over a lifetime, I think (I could be wrong) that except for major cities, people live long lives in one place and aren't as driven as many others, especially on the coasts. So anyone living a different lifestyle is just "different" to them, and would feel out of place.

If I'm wrong, that's okay, I just never gave it too much thought, not having lived anywhere south of Massachusetts, except the far west of California, which is more like Boston than it is like Georgia!

[izzie]

70. Best place I ever lived for open minded people was Alaska

When I left the state they were getting in some Christian zealots that wanted to run the state but I can not believe it would work. They were also a little up tight about Indians. Then Maine has always been up tight about the Can. Fr.I guess I could put up with that but to have people even tell me I was in the wrong public bath room just did not get to me. I really lost it when I lived in the South. I was just plain out of place and so were my children. I also lived there when the state police shutting the schools and moving into them, from a Edit from DC, and school buses turned over in next town. I had a time thinking is this Am?

[deaniac21]

53. You are right southern people are awful.

[Name removed]

62. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[UncleSepp]

73. I agree they stole our punctuation they should pay

[kdpeters]

97. Yes we certainly are.

We all know how northerners and midwesterners are so superior as they can hardly stop for gas on their way to Florida without letting reminding us. I always knew they were superior because they never needed to use any manners.

[izzie]

177. Get the Southern people out side with every one else and they are

just about the same as every one else. I swear that they need company to act so bad. It is like a mob. One does not move into a mob and think nothing is going to happen to you if you are not with them. I Once had a maid tell me to not call her Mrs. something, as we always did in the North, as the lady of the house wanted every one to call her by her first name. The Master gets to say I guess. I knew Black people in the South that had two says of speaking. Like a regular person and like some stupid person. It was who he was talking to, so the Masters win with the people they keep down. Or maybe it was the other way around. It does take both sides of this to a level one hates to see. As you see I made a bad person to live in the South at that time. I do not know if it is still like that.I have seen Southern people in groups out side the South that still act the same but alone they are like every one else. Groups makes one brave I guess. Or they feel they must act like that. I just do not understand it.

[IronLionZion]

182. Right, and that's why northerners keep moving south

Seriously, we have a major population shift southward and westward and that's going to hurt the elitist Dems and help the elitist Repubs.

I wouldn't mind going South for the lower cost of living. Snow and cold is only good when I'm skiing, otherwise it just blows.

[The Backlash Cometh]

95. You're my next best friend.

I've pretty much said everything on DU that's been on my mind and managed to avoid getting tombstoned, and I'm pretty sure that there were things I believed in that were not in line with Liberal ideas. Democratic posters to DU probably get tombstoned because they are passionate about something and frustrated too. I've often heard that activists end up alienating every friend they have. Maybe awareness does that to someone?

Anyway, the things I'm most passionate about are in line with what you experienced in the South. Maybe the only reason I haven't reached the point of turning everyone off, is because of my drive-by style of posting. I always find new things to focus on in DU, and it helps dilute the one issue that can get me into trouble.

[rosesaylavee]

6. Having had several animals

as pets and few I can say were truly friends - if not actually living with me would recognize me no matter how long I had been away from their human's home - I have to say I agree with you. I think its the height of arrogance to think humans are at a higher level than animals. We know how we think and communicate but haven't much knowledge of how animals think and communicate. IMO, having more power than another species doesn't mean superiority.

That said, I think a radical thought I expressed the other day on DU sank like a rock and didn't find much traction... yet. But I think if the Republican party is found to be guilty of manipulating election outcomes and key leaders in that party are found to have at least consented to these actions done by others in their favor, that the Republican Party needs to be disbanded and its members banned from assembling under that name. There would be regrouping of course - probably a Conservative Party would emerge. (Or bring back the Bull Moose Party!) The Republican party has become too corrupt and its leaders too complacent about the Constitution. Rule of law should be more important than any one group.

[hyphenate]

24. That's an interesting thought

The major parties in the country have actually changed over the past two hundred + years as it is, and no one from the 18th century would recognize wholly what we claim today to be the 2 largest political parties. It might even happen that a third party would emerge anyhow, because the founding fathers would have their own ideas and beliefs that might contradict what we have because of the many changes in the country and the world over these two centuries. In a way, though they hoped for expansion and growth, I'm sure they would have found it difficult to comprehend how communications have brought us all so much closer, how much everything costs, the era of the automobile itself would astound them, and the reliance on fossil fuels would probably piss them off! They all had open minds, though, so they would grasp it more quickly than most, but they might also balk at the interpretation of the Bill of Rights and other sections of the Constitution by our modern judges.

If they saw how the pukes are governing, they might decide we would have been better off under Brit rule than under neocon rule!

But I understand what you mean. Obliterating the party itself, though, could eliminate some of the greater problems, but it would also bring others to the fore--since it hasn't been contemplated with much discussion, I would say that the GOP is just as fragmented as they believe the Democrats are, and that alone would keep them from reaching any sort of majority position. Sort of like the former Soviet Union--as one nation, fighting was kept to a minimum and power was consolidated. Now, with each small nation on its own again, poverty is rampant and the power base in Russia, as the largest country, is nowhere near what it used to me.

[LWolf]

7. Sort of.

I'm not "afraid" to voice it. I just generally don't, since it is outside of allowed discussion here.

Here it is:

While I am a registered Democrat and generally vote Democratic, I don't believe that any party is God, is "the only path" to what this country needs, etc., and I don't look to any party to patronize me, take my vote for granted, etc..

Outside of that radical belief, I'll express my opinions at any point here at DU. They're just as valid as anyone else's, as far as opinions go, and if someone wants to play the bully and "gang up" on an opinion of mine, they are free to try. :shrug:

[Individualist]

20. If that's a radical belief, I'm radical too.

I value integrity above party loyalty and am not hesitant to say so in spite of the "purer than thou", "leftier than thou" or "you'd rather see a repuke elected" BS comments.

[hyphenate]

28. What is interesting

is a quote from a TV show from a few years back, where the main character played an Independent, and everyone thought he was a Democrat because his famous and much loved father was a major one.

His comment was along the line of where a northern (state) republican was often more liberal than a southern Democrat, so it really didn't make much sense to be in a party where both sides ventured into the others' parties depending on many factors, but especially geography. I think that's very true.

[krispos42]

94. I think it was "Mr. Sterling', iirc n/t

[hyphenate]

130. Yes, it was!

I thought I, alone, watched that show! It seems like it at any rate--it was cancelled too, too early.

[ScreamingMeemie]

26. I don't think you are so very alone in that LWolf...

I am not willing to throw anybody under the bus to see a democrat get elected.

[datasuspect]

44. i'm with you on this one

i see no practical difference between the republican party and the democratic party where it concerns the working class, the poor, and both parties' lickspittle subservience to major corporations.

[Ex Lion Tamer]

8. I think ABBA made great rock and roll.

Glad to get that out.

[NC_Nurse]

9. LOL!

That was great.

[shadowknows69]

14. ABBA could do campaign commercials

"If you change your mind, I'm the first in line. People we're still free. Take a chance on me."
Paid for by the friends of Ex Lion Tamer for Senate.

[ScreamingMeemie]

27. ...and I love the song "Honey"... so we're even.

;) No pain, no gain.

[hyphenate]

31. That's not radical around here!

ABBA is well considered at DU. :)

[peaches2003]

10. I love Barry Manilow

:hide:

[etherealtruth]

48. If this is turning into a confessional ...

I'll have to admit to really liking Gordon Lightfoot!

[Drum]

11. Yes.

[blm]

12. I think prostitution should be legalized and regulated.

I think recreational drugs should be legalized and regulated similar to alcohol.

Because you're never going to stop either one, just like prohibiting alcolhol never worked, so you should reduce its ability to cause greater harm.

[blm]

23. Actually, I'm not afraid to say this publically.

I just posted it because it might help.

[ScreamingMeemie]

25. I agree with you blm.

Free country and all. It would eliminate the attraction for many.

[DarkTirade]

100. Eliminate the attraction AND eliminate the need to hide it

for fear of getting arrested. While I haven't seen any tests done on the subject, I can't imagine something like pot would be a gateway drug to the harder stuff if it wasn't for the fact that you have to go to drug dealers to get both.

[Red Right and BLUE]

199. And you're not alone.

I agree. While I don't do drugs or pay for sex, I don't think the gov't needs to hold our hands or to decide for us what morality is.

[Ilsa]

15. I think all Right-wingers should be forced to watch Grapes of Wrath.

That's right, FORCED. No civil rights involved. THey should see what poverty in America was like less than a hundred years ago, and then discuss what brave people like FDR did to alleviate it.

[Toucano]

16. More unconventional than radical, I think.

I'm not convinced, for example, that any nation has a "right to exist". All nation states are artificial constructs and can be disolved when it suits that society.

[jeffuppy]

64. Amen Toucano

Nations are simply imaginary lines humans have drawn across the globe to divide ourselves into US and THEM. Brown people on that side, yellow ones on the other.

Children have to be indoctrinated into accepting this twisted human condition with huge doses of nationalist propaganda - it does not come naturally. Pledge of Allegiance anyone? Over and over and over and over again... heil America!

[Javaman]

17. Many, oh so many...nt

[The2ndWheel]

22. Progress and evolution aren't the same thing

Nobody actually likes evolution, especially those of a more scientific way of thought.

Agriculture is a giant problem.

Everything that we attempt to eradicate so that we can live longer, healthier lives, is natures way of fighting back against an out of control species(both with overpopulation and overconsumption).

We'll never have fairness in a system that was built in the opposite fashion.

Everyone cannot have everything.

Civilization drains diversity out of life.

Diversity is not simply people of different color working together in the same office.

Mass production, standing armies, and this thing we call globalization(both corporate and social) have got to go.

I'll think of some more...

[hyphenate]

33. One of your points I'd like to comment on

I've always been a bit of a pessimist about life and death in a similar fashion. I feel while we have the right to live longer lives, I still firmly believe in death, and that Nature herself takes care of any human challenges to her plan.

We have advanced medical science to such a degree that older illnesses have been cured in many cases, and thus not enough people die from these diseases. And while that's good news, it also leaves nature with the challenge of keeping the population under some control. Thus, we notice that there are more natural disaster which wipe out even larger populations, and we also end up with diseases that have yet to be cured. We cure tuberculosis--nature hits us with AIDS. We create antibiotics to help cure some diseases--the diseases mutate and the old drugs don't work as well anymore.

Sometimes it's like battling death itself--we do it so often, though, because we fear it, and can't really comprehend that sometimes death is more than welcomed by many who would rather die than be in pain or worse, mentally or physically.

[Broken_Hero]

86. Amen to this one...

"Diversity is not simply people of different color working together in the same office."

[anarch]

29. yes. yes, I do.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

30. From what I understand, it's legal to preach revolution.

That's what I was taught. It's legal to preach revoltion, it's legal to talk about it in the hypothetical. It's just illegal to actual plan and conspire to commit revolution.

Anyway, what was the question again?

[LostinVA]

32. I agree with your sentencing guidelines for animals

It SHOULD be the same as people, especially for companion animals.

[TahitiNut]

34. Yes. I like Kenny G and Yanni. I love their music.

:silly:

[DarkTirade]

102. Well, you're entitled to your own (wrong) opinion...

:evilgrin:

[TahitiNut]

162. It's not an opinion. It's a fact that I like their music.

:evilgrin: Aesthetics ... a branch of Philosophy. :dunce:

[KitSileya]

35. Well, this is an opinion I've voiced bits and pieces of lately

A caveat, which I think is necessary: in the last 2-3 weeks, I've been very angry and frustrated with the way things are going in the US, and the fact that as a Norwegian citizen, living in Norway, I cannot be hands-on and present in trying to influence matters.

Anyway, my opinion is, that I am getting less and less lenient with Americans when it comes to what the repukes are doing. The powerlessness many progressive Americans feel with regards to stopping diverse crimes committed by their government is less and less an excuse in my eyes. Especially after seeing the aftermath of the election in Mexico, how hard people fought to get justice; even if they didn't succeed, they tried. If the American people aren't willing to fight just as hard if the elections are stolen in November, for the 4th time , I will lose a lot of respect for them. And if the Bush** admin invades Iran, and it isn't immediately followed by mass demonstrations, millions camping out at The Mall, general strikes, any sort of lasting protest by the people, I might go completely rogue and say what's good for the goose is good for the gander.

There you have it - horrible as it is, I am getting resentful that those of you who are actually in a position to do something, aren't fighting hard enough. But then again, I am an armchair quarterback in this matter, and as such, my opinion can be discarded very easily.

[rosesaylavee]

45. No flame here but

what action are we not doing that you would like to see? We write letters, we call our representatives, we walk in protest, we join groups that talk about what to do and when to do it. The press here in Middle America just doesn't publish protests smaller than 5000 people and even then, "undercount" how many actually showed up. We had peace protests every week on the bridges up and down the county - 5 to 50 people carrying signs. Not reported but seen by a lot of locals. It was something to do but what effect does it actually have?

Other than taking to the streets with torches and pitchforks, not sure what else I could personally do.

We hope that the votes will be counted this fall and that much of voting machine manipulation will be kept to a minimum by the numbers of poll watchers and poll judges.

I can imagine its frustrating to watch from outside - but believe me, it ain't fun here on the inside.

[KitSileya]

57. I know.

I can imagine its frustrating to watch from outside - but believe me, it ain't fun here on the inside.

Which is why I conceded that mine was the opinion of an armchair quarterback, and should be treated as such. My frustration at my own impotence in this matter is showing, I know, and it is unfair to condemn the Ameerican people wholesale just yet.


However, you might also notice that I stated my opinions with some qualifications - the theft of another election, or an invasion of Iraq, and that especially in the latter case it falls upon the American people to stop the Bush junta - with torches and pitchforks........or p90s, if necessary. And while that suggestion might get my post deleted, or myself listed by agent Mike, I am completely serious. The US has 12 year mandatory education, where most learn to read and write, you have unprecedented phone and internet access, nominal freedom to congregate, laws that nominally protect you, in short, you have the means with which to plan a revolution. And what is more important, the US is a democracy - even with the stolen elections you have the knowledge of what democracy is, and there is a duty to preserve it.

Mexicans, Ukrainians, Kenyans, and many others have fought that battle with much worse odds - they didn't all win, but at least they tried. If the Bush** admin invades Iran, will Americans be willing to leave their place of work and participate in a general strike? Will they descend upon Washington D.C. en masse, and stay there until Congress agrees to their demands? Will they risk their lives to stop their sworn President - he may not have been elected, but he is sworn in - from killing thousands of innocents? Or will they accede that if so happens, like the Afghani being killed because of the Taliban, and the Iraqi killed because they had Saddam Hussein as president, the Iranians would be within their full rights to bomb American cities because Bush is their president, and he has shown himself to be every bit the terrorist he accused Hussein to be?

If the US invades Iran, it is quite clear that the current trend of diplomacy and gentle international pressure is useless, and it will be necessary to contain USA as the threat it has become, on par with North Korea, Zimbabwe et.al. And that is something for which I can fight, and pressure my own government, small tho' we may be in international circles.

[jeffuppy]

67. The US may have 12 years of mandatory education...

...but, sadly, we don't generally use any of that time to teach real critical thinking skills. Of the various necessary elements of a properly functioning democracy - the most glaringly absent here in the U.S. is a populace possessed of the intellectual tools necessary to think critically and to independently assess information. Gotta have that first or Democracy won't work. Sad but true.

[KitSileya]

68. Yes, which begs the question -

did you try to get elected to your local school board last election? Perhaps that might be a movement worth starting, getting progressives elected to the school boards all across the nation, and trying to improve the situation?

[treestar]

121. Great idea, really

There is an element of Americans just work too hard, or are afraid they are going to lose their jobs to such extent. A "general strike" - is that something you could do in Norway without being afraid of losing your job? Though here, if enough people did it, it would not be possible for employers to punish people like that, but somehow the American mind takes it as a given that their employers could function without them and would fire them for the least infraction.

[KitSileya]

128. In Norway, as I think I said somewhere,

it is not the corporations that influence politics as much as it is the trade unions and even employers' union. In other words, we have a strong union tradition. Which is why we don't understand why Americans don't unionize. There are probably more people outside the US than inside who boycott McDonalds because they refuse to let their employees unionize. A general stike is very possible, and we do use strikes regularly as our bargaining chip - we hold salary negotiations every spring, strikes erups sometimes, and the government is authorized to take action if life and health is in danger. If you unionized, you'd be able to go to a general strike - you'd have the organizational apparatus for it too. Americans (or a majority of them) are far too willing to give up their rights, not only as concerns the Patriot Act and War on Terra, but also in worklife - letting your bosses squeeze every drop out of you without actually demanding anything in return. At least without demanding anything collectively in return, as you (the majority, at least) are far too opposed to working together, helping each other, and supporting each other in public life. You seem unwilling to demand more of those who have more, so that even those with nothing can live a decent life. You seem unwilling to get less so that others can get some too. You seem unwilling to realize the power you actually have.

The more I get to know the US, and the more I see how your politicians twist your country into an effigy of democracy, the more I realize that the picture of the US that has been projected, and that you to a certain extent still believe, of 'the home of the free and land of the brave' is simply a lie.

[treestar]

134. I see what you mean

It is quite ironic, because Americans thinks of themselves as having "rights" but see them so individually that they even refuse to go into things that are in their own interests so long as they are "collective" in any way. They don't want to have to depend on anyone else and so they won't take/give support to anyone else.

[KitSileya]

136. Exactly!

Very well stated.

[NotGivingUp]

149. i so agree with you

[GliderGuider]

109. "Other than taking to the streets with torches and pitchforks"

There was that quote from Jefferson at the top of the thread... It's well past time - maybe you need to take a lesson from Thailand?

[marions ghost]

55. well Kit from Norway

at least you see the magnitude of what we're up against over here, such as

Stolen elections.
Imperialist "wars" and invasions.
Deranged leadership.
Constant fear-mongering.
Dwindling social safety net.
Compromised media.
Corruption at every level.
Loss of our "inalienable rights."

I ask you to try fighting this kind of scenario some time. Think about it. What good would millions camping out at the mall do? It would be like Tiananmen Square.

We aren't having much luck with street protesting in this country. Maybe it works better in Europe? Protesting does help to raise awareness and generate support, and is therefore still valuable, but it doesn't change how the forces against us are operating now. They pay no attention to the people. We have been made into pawns in their game.

We will have to do this differently. We will have to use more diverse tactics and long-range planning.
We must find new avenues for non-violent change to occur. Like Al Gore says, we are losing touch with
reason. Old standards of trust and integrity are a joke. It's like a collective nervous breakdown over here.

Meanwhile maybe you can tell the world to give us a hand. We need some strong support.

[KitSileya]

65. "Collective nervous breakdown."

How aptly put. Sometimes I get so angry I almost think it would be better if those of us in the industrialized world were taught how good we have it by simply losing what we have. It certainly would be better for Mother Earth. Most likely, it would shake people out of their imagined fears and give them some real ones to worry about. However, that would be the cause of so many deaths - mostly poor people - but it wouldn't hit those who deserve it.

We will have to do this differently. We will have to use more diverse tactics and long-range planning.
We must find new avenues for non-violent change to occur. Like Al Gore says, we are losing touch with
reason. Old standards of trust and integrity are a joke.
That's an interesting avenue of thought - any which way you look at it, something must be done, and after 6 years of Bush tyranny, a lot of people should have had their eyes opened. I guess part of the frustration comes from the idea that 'to whom much is given, much shall be required', and who has been given more democracy and freedom than the Americans? We expect more from you. At the same time, Kris Kristoffersen was right, 'freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose', and does Iraq, and possibly Iran, have to wait until Americans are so on the rocks that they literally have nothing left to lose before they are willing to rebel? How many will die before that? To what extent will Iraq be uninhabitable before that happens?

The US is the world's greatest military power, and I believe that if the rest of the world tries to force the US to back down, there is a chance we'll truly end up with WWIII. I guess the rest of the world would rather the Americans paid the price for Bush with their own lives, if I can be so callous.

[marions ghost]

83. Respectfully, I am asking you to consider

the difficult fact that the American government and the American people are no longer one. I can't even speak of this country of my birth as "we" and my brain goes -tilt- when people from other countries say "you" meaning "America" to me. I can't even relate to that concept anymore. This is a very schizy way to live, as you might imagine, and we've been there for a few years now.

Anyway, if the American government attacks Iran there is not much we can do to stop them. We already know that. Remember that the majority of Americans did NOT support the war in Iraq to begin with. Many of us are beyond 'concerned'--we are seriously demoralized by our position of powerlessness. And more are having their eyes opened daily. So you want us to risk our lives to save the world from our Bushitler?--is that what I'm reading here? A lot of Americans ALREADY feel they are paying the "price for Bush" with their lives and their livelihood. The people could use a little more solidarity from others around the world. I realize it's hard for you to see any Americans as oppressed, but it's like we are on a hijacked plane right now. Very scary.

That you in other countries "expect more from America" might be something you need to reassess. Americans do not have more democracy and freedom than many other countries now. I think it's debatable that we ever did. I have some friends who emigrated here from mainland China who would agree.

This is why I say the old ways wil not work to bring about change here anymore.

[KitSileya]

92. I do concede that I am strident in my opinions here.

Not being in the situation that you are, and with infinitely more trust in my own country's political progress (which is not so heavily influenced by corporations, but rather by the trade unions and employers' union), it is harder for me to understand the situation you are in.

The degree of powerlessness you experience is rather foreign to us here in Europe (except perhaps in Britain) - in France there were mass demonstrations that got the government to change its mind less than a year ago, for example. That may be the reason why we don't give any quarters, I guess. However, if you remember after 2000, Europe believed it was only an aberration the Americans would get rid of in the next election. 9/11 was devastating, and for many Americans it changed your outlook on life, but here too Europeans have trouble understanding. Remember, we have similar devastations in fresh memory, not only of Al Qaeda attacks, but Britain, Spain, etc have had bombings and attacks for years. The unique position the US has posited for itself with regards to the attack on its own soil is also not fully grasped, the inviolability Americans believed in pre-9/11 - for example, while American kids were ducking and covering under their desks, Europe had the Soviet Union on its door step, literally, either bordering the USSR itself or its satellite states.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that the hero worship Europe has had for the US since WWII is getting mighty tarnished, and Europe is getting short-tempered because partly we are afraid - if the US can be so clearly inching its way towards world dominance and exhibiting behavior like what the USSR did in its worst period, who can be safe? Is our belief in a better world, a more responible, globalized, peaceful world, for naught? The erratic, domineering, irresponsible behavior of the US is shaking up Europe too, but how can we espouse beliefs of sovereignty and self-determination, and at the same time stop the US? It's not like we can invade the US. Therefore we take the coward's way out, and toss the responsibility on the Americans themselves.

[raccoon]

107. Before the Iraq invasion, 90% of the people in Spain were against

the invasion, but SOB Aznar went in anyway. It ain't just the US. But I also wish more people in the US would go to the streets and protest.

[KitSileya]

126. Yes, but they elected a new government, and that new government

did as the people wanted. However, I do realize that they had fair elections - so the question would be, in comparison, would the Spaniards have poured out into the streets if there had been as much evidence of fraud?

Norway is a much smaller country, so our elections are on a much smaller scale, and a lot fewer positions are electable ones. Therefore, our elections are a lot more transparent, and we don't even have to show i.d. to vote. Paper ballots all the way - touch screens wouldn't even be suggested. We did have international observers during our national election in 09/05, and they were amazed.

[raccoon]

108. "It's not like we can invade the US. "

You could at least try! Remember your Viking ancestors. :silly:

[marions ghost]

141. I'm glad if

Europeans are seeing America in a more realistic light. That can only be for the good. Glad to hear that the events after 2000 have educated Europeans on the truth about what is going on over here. The B*sh regime an "aberration"? No, more like the triumph of the worst impulses of our free enterprize system--free to abuse, steal, destroy. This is the outcome of a system with no effective controls on exploitation. The magnitude of the problems overwhelm people here and they don't know what to do about it. Most people do realize that something is dreadfully wrong, but they see no easy way to overcome the hijackers.

Thanks for giving us your perspective. Come back again. Although this discussion came out tangentially here, I'm sure there is a lot more that could be said.

[KitSileya]

175. Yes, I do believe Americans need to get the perspectives

of people around the world. The US tends to be a bit insular, understandably enough, considering its size and population. However, it can no longer be excused, considering that American foreign

I emphasize to all who criticize Americans that the American media is propaganda like we haven't seen since Pravda - I tell them to look at CNN international for a spell, and then realize that American CNN is even worse.


Regardless of what I've written on this thread, I do like the US. I like the principles of the Founding Fathers, I like the spirit of America, and as I've said, I have family and friends in the US. Which is one of the reasons I've been coming to DU for 5 years now, and been a member for 4. I may not post much, but I read a lot.

[treestar]

119. Are you a dual citizen? I think it interesting that if not, you are

here, I mean, it's cool, and it is neat that you would have that much interest as to be at a place like DU. Americans are so awful about following politics elsewhere. I know zip about Norway.

[KitSileya]

123. I do not hold dual citizenship

but I have lived in Oregon, and would like to return. However, with the way American economy is about to completely tank, I doubt that will be an option, and, considering the fact that Norway has universal health care, universal education, social security, and many other things, it would not be a good bargain.

[Wiley50]

139. Can I Elbow In Here And Speak With Our Norwegian Friend

Kit,
Our two biggest problems are the corporate monopoly on media
and lack of publicly funded elections.
Our media blacks out almost all dissent and makes sure
that any dissenters shown are weak and easily overpowered ones
straw men that they then tear up.

The lack of publicly funded elections means, ultimately,
that all politicians are in corporate pockets
those pockets being the only ones deep enough
to buy the media exposure that it takes to get elected

We once had strong unions, but they have been busted
by state "right to work for peanuts" laws and well-publicized
strike breaking like Reagan did to the Air Controllers union.
People are scared to death of losing their jobs
because easy credit has put them in hock up to their ears.

We are, indeed, passengers on a high jacked plane.

We hold mass demonstrations of hundreds of thousands of people
They are ignored on the news
They fill the newscasts with an endless stream of "fill" stories
from Martha Stewart to Michael Jackson to husbands who kill
their pregnant wives and ignore real news in the process

I'd like to think we could stage a revolution
but no one would know about it
so very few would come
only to be ignored

We, here on DU, are the very few who know the truth
everyone else is asleep
and we can never scream loud enough to wake them

I don't know what will change it
Some tines I hope that the Shanghai Cooperation Agreement
is strong enough that Russia and China will retaliate
if we attack Iran. Maybe that would shake things up enough
that a revolution would be possible here.

[RedStateShame]

36. Yeah. Here's mine. All colleges should eliminate their sports programs

And every time a "student athlete" takes money away from a student, our education system fails.

[Evoman]

38. Hey! I completely agree with you.

I am undecided about high-school...I understand that a lot of high-school kids are "saved" by sports, and that it keeps them out of trouble, but I bristle at the idea that Sports are more important than academics. Also, jocks tend to be assholes. So much money is spent on sports in University that could be going into the sciences or arts.

Our university is an example. They have been building new buildings lately in order to accomodate more students and a larger faculty. The first thing they started doing was building more residences. Fair enough, student housing is important. THEN they started a multimillion dollar project on building our Physical Education building...i.e, more and bigger gyms, a state of the art track, more room for the sports teams, etc. This was at a time when we desperately needed new microscopes, new equipement and more Lab space for grad students and the new faculty they hired. So now they have began to build the new science building addition. Guess what...they ran out of money and will only be finishing the 1st floor. The other floors won't be finished and filled until they get more money :mad:

[QuestionAll...]

50. i have one, also sports related.

and will probably get creamed for it, but here goes.

I can't understand how so called progressive anti-corporate greed people think that big sports are some kind of sacred cow. Critisize a superbowl game with it's overpaid managers, players and megabucker corps and gullible audiences (rah rah go team go, my side is better1 - oh so miitary. bleh) and you get sliced off at the knees.

I would much rather see the money going to school sports and arts programs (not college or uni).
Thats where it's truly needed.

so shoot me.

[NotGivingUp]

152. yeah...they got the wool pulled over a lot of people's eyes on

this one

[hyphenate]

157. I think it's the sign of true capitalism

in our country. Just think--400 years ago and longer than that, everyone's main source of entertainment was meeting in the town's square to watch the latest hanging or beheading. Nowadays, that's been replaced with big sports, and those who take control of that by providing a venue and food and drink are those little wannabees at the town squares wondering how someday a profit could be made off someone's death.

[rosesaylavee]

46. Can we add High Schools to that too! n/t

[treestar]

124. I like that, in fact, they should take gym out of schools, and just

make it an extracurricular activity.

Grades in gym! We had them. Now that I look back, the idea is ludicrous.

We takes sports way too seriously in this country, we make a link with "character." I also debate with my family this worship they have of the "well-rounded person" which means excelling in every area. Like if Edison was not athletic too, who cares? And we worship people who are athletes alone, who have no other accomplishments.

[coffeenap]

155. My daughter just took a WRITTEN exam on football--and was

put in the lower athletic group because of it! Unbelievable!

[Donald Ian Rankin]

194. I think that would be very unwise.

America has a serious obesity problem, and I'm fairly sure that the second-greatest contributory factor, behind diet, is not getting enough exercise. America needs more sport in schools, not less, especially more sport aimed at less fit pupils.

I can't comment on America, but here in the UK, school sports tends to focus on the children who are best at it, who are by their very nature the ones who need least encouragement to exercise more, and sports for less sporting pupils tends to make very little effort to make it fun for them - they're just expected to do the same things as everyone else, less well, without getting anything out of it. What is needed, I think, is to change the focus of school sports from producing potential champions to making sure that all pupils are getting enough exercise.

[NotGivingUp]

150. you are absolutely right

[jokerman93]

37. sure

I have some pretty strong opinions about bogus religious cults and their brain-washed followers, having years of first hand experience with the subject. But why be a target of self-righteous, solipsistic, self-kissing, deluded god-warriors any more than one has to? Right?

Oops! Guess I let the cat out of the bag!

:evilgrin:

[hyphenate]

39. I'm in complete agreement with you

I refer to fundamentalism as a cult more than a religion. People are actually drawn into it, and the views are so narrow that they can't be anything BUT a cult. I have made fundies my eternal enemy in a way, but I don't regret it one bit.

[jokerman93]

138. Fundie-think

It must be some kind of insensible, unconscious fear that makes people need to believe they have all the answers and the assurance they've got the edge. For a lot of people these days, life is just too unpredictable to live without that soul-deadening certainty that comes with having all your meals chewed for you - religiously, intellectually, morally, politically, or any other way. When they can believe in the literal truth of their holy books, and march in lockstep to the promptings of their church and political leaders, then personal opinion, self-reflection, even healthy doubt are no longer necessary. They KNOW they're the chosen ones and thus their actions, perceptions and beliefs are ALWAYS right. That's why the neocons love the bastards - they're so easily led by the nose. Fundies make great pets.

I've had to accept reality. The cults of fundamentalism sell the mindset of a life-hating, world-despising, evolutionary dead-end, and are antagonistic to everything I believe in as a citizen of this country and a member of the human race. They nearly all support Bush because he flatters their need for exceptionalism. He believes he's above the law, and for their own reasons, so do they. They are unabashed enablers of the most destructive political and social forces we face as a nation and a species in this century.

About two years ago more or less, I finally reached my limit with their B.S.. At some point I decided: no more Mr.nice-guy for me. Yeah. I've made enemies along the way too. Let 'em choke on it...


Now, would you like me to tell you how I really feel?

:evilgrin:

J

[hyphenate]

156. Pretty much the same as I do

I suspect. :)

I always thought my love and friendship of over 20 years would win over my feelings about my fundie friend. But she has gone so deeply into the fundie mindset that it became impossible for me to put up with it any longer. Fundies I knew online were scary bastards--and a constant source of frustration. I naively thought that intelligent people had a better sense of self than to believe the lies and misconceptions that some religions depended on. But now I can see it isn't a matter of intelligence. That would be too easy. I now know it's an emotional response. A lot of those sucked into cults are emotionally immature, and "need" to believe that they are wanted and loved. If they are courted by charismatic leaders who are able to feed into that overwhelming desire, they are easy targets. It becomes important to these people to feel like they belong somewhere. Even if it's within the narrow confines of a religious cult that accepts no one who thinks for themselves.

I've never been able to settle for one scenario. I was raised as a Catholic, but found it too judgmental for me, and it was either go to the polar opposite, or cultivate my own beliefs by looking into a wide variety of other faiths. I've actually done both. I found myself rejecting most faiths and accepting more philosophies instead. But that's the path I chose, and everyone chooses their own path, some more blindly than others. Anyone who is sucked into the cult of subservience that is fundamentalism really deserves what they get. It's a powerful aphrodisiac to think you possess something that very few others do, but in the end, we all end up the same way, no one winning out over another except in their imaginations. If there is a heaven, one who is an atheist who loves all and treats everyone equally will be there long before a fundie with their deliberate disregard for knowledge and long held prejudices and intolerances.

I have come to despise these people because in more than one way they are ruining what our country stands for by trying to take away basic freedoms from those that they hate. And by standing behind GWB instead of behind the real tenets of our country, they are the ones who are not only supporting terrorism, but are just another bunch of terrorists themselves.

[Nye Bevan]

40. Yes. It's to do with the Olive Garden in Manhattan

but I think I'll just leave it at that.

[Minimus]

41. I feel the same way.

I am vehemently against the death penalty but I have always said I could put my Quaker beliefs aside if the crime involved cruelty to animals.

How could anyone mistreat any animal? When I think of dogs and how all they want to do is please their master...how they will continue to try and show affection even after they are mistreated...it breaks my heart.

Actually I'm ashamed to say, death is too kind, maybe a little torture for the perpetrators.

Is that too radical?

[hyphenate]

49. No--not at all

I always think about a fantasy where one of my wishes is that those who harm animals will never be able to harm them ever again, and they will suffer in the same fashion they have tortured and killed animals with.

I always think of poachers with the giant pits and all the sharp spears in the pit to kill the animal. I keep envisioning the hunters being in the pit themselves, spears poking out through them, and the animals at the top wondering what the stupid humans are doing again.

No, I have nothing but contempt for those who harm animals in any such manner. They deserve the worst that we can dream up to keep them from harming anymore.

[Evoman]

42. OH YEAH...lots

I don't want to get myself banned (although none of my beliefs are right wing), but here are some of my more..ahem...acceptable views

1) I hate most cops. Not all of them, but for the most part, I hate them. I hate that they have so much power. I hate then when a cop gets shot, that they are more important than civilians and whoever it that shot them gets more jail time than if he shot a civilian. I hate the idea that a cop can shoot an innocent person, and not be put away for as long as a civilian would have. I hate that cops could beat somebody up if they wanted, or steal, or lie and their words would be believed over a civilian.

2) I think there should be VERY high fines for littering. I hate that people treat the planet like a garbage can.

3) I can't stand hippy types who show up at demonstrations, but don't have any idea what they are demonstrating against. I also can't stand scientifically ignorant environmentalists...for example, there are some rivers in Canada that are inhabited by harmful, foreign species of fish that have no business being there. The provincial evironmental agency, along with university scientists, decided to allow all the fish to be caught, and then trap and kill the rest, then reintroduce the native species of fish and wildlife. Environmentalists protested, not understanding the harm they were doing.

4) My views about religion, and new-age stuff (including psychics, etc), should be kicking around the forum, so I won't go into them here.

[HughBeaumont]

52. AGREED to no END on this one!

"I hate then when a cop gets shot, that they are more important than civilians and whoever it that shot them gets more jail time than if he shot a civilian."

Oh yes. I fucking hate this. Child molesters, child murderers and child rapists get pittances in comparison (just ask my wife; as a social worker, she sees the molestation/repeat offender part in her caseloads all the time) and are allowed out to repeat their offense. You shoot a police officer, even accidentally, you're getting put to sleep. We value a police officer's life over a CHILD'S? Is that the message here?

Here's what I want to know. Why is no effort being made to cleanse departments of rogue police that use their badge as a means of getting back at those who wronged them in a past life? How much police brutality/harassment is covered up in the Cleveland, Lorain and Youngstown areas alone? Police here (most of whom are WAY the hell out of shape, I might add) have harassed and physically abused protestors (witness the Cleveland Heights case) and verbally harass citizens often, even when they're going out of their way to obey traffic laws in fear that a fat cop on a cycle is going to pull them over. Yes, in case you were wondering, I'm talking about me.

"You DO realize you have to know how to drive before you get behind the wheel? You DO know that, don't you?"

Okay, why was that warranted? I mean, what am I going to say to that? "Fuck you fatass, why don't you go to a fucking gym or something?" I wouldn't be sitting here talking to you right now if I did. Well, I probably would, but I'd be on probation or something. I can even relate the incident in DC last September (during the anti-Iraq War March) where, for walking in the wrong direction, one of the police stepped in my way and had his club drawn. Didn't say a WORD to him, just for walking in the wrong direction. That's just how police are anymore.

[kdpeters]

115. You mean you don't know?

Why is no effort being made to cleanse departments of rogue police that use their badge as a means of getting back at those who wronged them in a past life?

Dude, the "rogue" cop is a myth. The only "rogue" cop is the cop that gets caught. Their cleansing efforts are aimed at the good cops who value justice above blue brotherhood. I've known more than my share of cops, and considered several a friend. But even those I respected socially had nothing but disdain for anyone they decided was a bad guy. They're all ready to lie with 100% confidence if they've decided you deserve it or to show you who's in control.

I've known of two violent crimes happened to a personal friend -- both spousal murders. One an untreated mental illness, the other a culmination of years of violent abuse. But having lived more than my share of years in crime, drug, and little bit of gang ridden neighborhoods of Atlanta and San Francisco, I've never been or known personally of anyone a victim of random violence even though I've seen it in the street two or three times.

But where to begin with the abuses I've witnessed from cops:
1. some friends ambushed from the shadows (cruise sting), yanked from the vehicle, beat, humiliated and charged with multiple serious felonies but not bothering to show up in court to testify. they got away with it.

2. My boyfriend a gay cop, targeted for punishment based on the coerced testimony of his partner who actually committed the offense in the complaint

3. My brother, borrowing my Mom's car, unaware of the "mishma" in the back seat another teacher (Amerind) had given her. Charged with possession of marijuana, speeding, driving w/o license, and DUI. It wasn't MJ or even close, he passed a roadside sobriety test, found the license in the floor during the stop. Prosecutor decided to press all charges because a pee test revealed MJ. they got away with it.

4. Boyfriend, gay cop, repeatedly harassed on the job, including a suspicious training "accident" that knocked him out cold and sent him to the hospital with a concussion. The emergency training class where the principal tormentor advised a room full of cops to ignore the law and leave a gay man injured and bleeding to death while "the little bitch in the passenger's seat" screamed for help. He didn't know what was to happen when he decided to record the lecture, but it was incontrovertible evidence that demanded action. Filing the complaint got action. The main harasser was transferred closer to his home and the entire machine came down on us until they beat us. He was assigned impossible shifts, impossible tasks, earning a stream of reprimands on a previously unblemished record. They fired him 5:00pm wed before thanksgiving only to realize the error on Monday of a ruined holiday. They staked our apartment, they followed us, they pulled over for surprise sobriety tests. I don't know why the ACLU or Lamba legal were uninterested, but apparently they get "dubious" cold calls all the time. they got away with it.

Give me a criminal any day. I'd rather do without ever crossing another cop's path. I hate them too.

[Selatius]

43. I think the United States should be dissolved over major differences

We all speak English, for the most part, but we hardly have much in common anymore beyond that. Culturally speaking, the nation really resembles several smaller regional nations. Living in Mississippi is completely different than living in California. I'm not talking about city living vs. rural living. I'm talking about fundamental cultural views on life and relations with other people and how people view other parts of the country.

If there is a peaceful avenue towards the dissolution of the Union, I am all for supporting it. I am NOT ADVOCATING A VIOLENT SEPARATION. That is the LAST thing I want.

I don't mean to sound apocalyptic when I quote Abe Lincoln, but "A house divided cannot stand." I believe it's time we contemplate a peaceful separation.

[Toucano]

75. I would support that as well. n/t

[buddhamama]

47. i am against globalization

in its current form.

I am in agreement with you on animal rights. I hold strong opinions on the environment too.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

51. Loads

:-Islam and Christianity are not "just the same" - much as I dislike Christianity, Islam is non-trivially more unpleasant.

:-Stricter federal gun control would reduce America's rates of shootings; the second ammendment should be repealed.

:-Voting in the Senate should be weighted by state size.

:-Judges, attourneys, etc, should not have to stand for reelection, so that they only have to consider "what does the law say", not "what will be popular".

:-Boundaries of electoral regions should be set by an independent, non-partisan, unelected commission.

:-The invasion of Afghanistan could have done more good than harm, if a serious attempt at nation-building had followed it.

:-The UN is incredibly inefficient - I've believed this ever since I (an MSc student) was paid £100 of UN money for some incredibly basic statistics work because none of the 7 eminent sociologists working on the project in question (which was to devise a new index for measuring gender inequality in the third world, despite the fact that much of the data such an index would rely on wasn't accurately available) knew any statistics, despite the fact that it was a basically statistical rather than sociological problem. One anecdote does not a case make, but in general I think that while the idea of the UN is excellent, the execution is terrible.

:-George W. Bush, while one of the three worst presidents of the last 75 years and arguably the worst, is not one of the worst heads of nations in the world at present - if anything, he's one of the better ones. China, Myanmar, most middle Eastern nations, Cuba, most African nations, Russia, Belarus, several South American nations, and probably several others I've forgotten have worse leaders. It's only by comparison to Western and to some extent South American leaders that he's bad.




And finally three linked ones.

:-John Kerry was right to concede Ohio - fighting wouldn't have achieved anything. If he'd fought and won it would clearly have been good, but there was no possibility of that happening, and fighting and losing would have been harmful.

:-The Dems were right not to filibuster the confirmation of Alito - there was no possibility of them winning, and fighting and losing would have been harmful.

:-It would have been better for the Democratic party if Joe Lieberman had won his primary - the choice was not between the senator being "Lieberman (D)" and "Lamont (D)" but between "Lieberman (D)" and "Lieberman (I)". Lamont would unquestionably have made the better Senator if elected, but there is no possibility of that happening, alas.

The general view that links all these is "only pick a battle you can't win if you'll do some good even by losing". "I want politicians who will fight for what I believe in" is a stupid attitude. I want politicians who will *achieve* what I believe in, and contesting every battle to the bitter end even when you can't win is not the best way to win a war.

[hyphenate]

80. One that I tend to disagree with you on

is the state vote by size. The original intent of the electoral college was to give smaller states equal representation in the government. That's how the original districts were made out, to give a smaller state that equality.

I know under puke rules it's been pretty much manipulated like crazy, but the intent was good when it was created.

The most interesting part of that is that area does not equal population--with a state as large as Alaska has far fewer people than a small state such as Massachusetts, but "size" if it is a factor must be determined as to which "size" is referred to. :)

[Donald Ian Rankin]

179. Population, clearly, I think.

I think that democracy should mean "1 man, 1 vote". I don't like the fact that the vote of a Rhode Islander is worth so much more than the vote of a Texan.

[marions ghost]

84. You say....

"George W. Bush, while one of the three worst presidents of the last 75 years and arguably the worst, is not one of the worst heads of nations in the world at present - if anything, he's one of the better ones. China, Myanmar, most middle Eastern nations, Cuba, most African nations, Russia, Belarus, several South American nations, and probably several others I've forgotten have worse leaders. It's only by comparison to Western and to some extent South American leaders that he's bad."

:rofl:
What kind of comparison is this? It's like saying OUR criminal is less monstrous than other criminals. At least some of the other leaders you mentioned are not pretending to head up a Democracy, while raping
and pillaging and abusing. They are NOT making a mockery of the principles the country was founded on.

You have to put these other leaders in the context of their own country.

You're only kidding yourself with this "he's not the worst" line. This is a common psychological defense. It makes people feel better to think their monster isn't as wicked as other monsters. Actually the diabolical B*sh regime compares quite well to the worst in history anywhere.

[jeffuppy]

147. Not only that, many of the other monsters

wouldn't be in charge elsewhere if the USA didn't make it so. Therefore Chimpie gets extra points for enabling many of those guys as well.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

178. Yes and no.

I can't think of any dictators who George Bush could have removed from/prevented attaining office without the cure being far worse than the disease but hasn't; the two attempts he has made to do so were both fairly clearly disastrous (although Afghanistan possibly might have worked if handled differently).

The heighday of the US's encouragement of dictators was the Cold War.

[jeffuppy]

190. Just in the Middle East alone

we support defacto dictators in Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia and all the Gulf states. None of these regimes would likely still be in power without our massive financial and military support over the last 35 years. The democratic cure (which in these cases would likely result anti-Western Islamic movements) would only be worse than the cure in the short run. In the longer run, self-determination would result in stability and serve U.S. interests. The same goes for countless brutal and undemocratic regimes worldwide. Of course the cure would certainly be worse than the disease for a large raft of corporate interests - not to mention all those Americans who value our consumptive lifestyle more than our stated values.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

193. Even Bush (Jr) isn't to blame for 29 of those 35 years.

The hayday of America's support for dictatorships and the like was the Cold War. In the last six years, America has continued to trade with Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia and the Gulf states, making no attempt at regime change, but not done anything to "support" the regimes, as opposed to the countries, that I know of (although there may well be things I don't).

If the US were to attempt to remove the current regimes, the ones that replaced them would almost certainly not be functioning democracies - you'd get anarchy, with an American-backed nominally democratically-elected government with no real power, and real power resting in the hands of theocrats and warlords - vide Iraq, Afghanistan.

You talk blithely about "the democratic cure", but you don't give any hints about how such is to be achieved. If you can see a way for America to turn e.g. Jordan into a functioning democracy at an acceptable cost to its populace and the rest of the world, I'd love to hear it; I don't think such a thing exists.

[jeffuppy]

195. It wouldn't happen overnight

in Jordan or elsewhere. But if we used our very real leverage over King Hussein to pressure him to gradually open his society, improve human rights and build democratic institutions - change could, and I believe would, take place over time. It's simply not been a priority. Not at all. Insuring that those regimes align with the interests of U.S. multinational corporations in order to protect our American "way of life" has been the driving force behind U.S. policies. Imagine if we used even a tiny percentage of the resources, financial and otherwise, we are using to kill people in Iraq to really, really promote democratic institutions in countries like Jordan.

And I don't mean "... an American backed..." government, as you suggest. I start with the assumption that any government in the Middle East truly representative of it's people will kick the U.S. and its stooges to the curb as its first official act, alla post Shah Iran. That's the great irony that we need to get our heads around - that democracy in the Middle East will not produce pro-Western results in the near term (see occupied Palestine and Hezbullah in Lebenon) - but that without it we are screwed in the long run.

As for your assertion that in the last six years the U.S. has "...not done anything to "support" the regimes" Puuleeease! Here is one link:

http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/0412/p07s01-wome.html

I'm sure you can find many many more without much effort.

[MikeH]

143. I feel the way you do about one issue

:-Stricter federal gun control would reduce America's rates of shootings; the second amendment should be repealed.

I definitely agree with you about stricter federal gun control. I am not certain whether to consider the second amendment still something essential, or an anachronism.

I also personally think that concealed carry laws, requiring anybody who requests to carry a concealed weapon to be granted a permit to do so, are a stupid and dangerous idea.

These are my personal opinions, and I respect that other people, including many here on DU, have very different opinions and very strong feelings about the matter. I am not prepared to defend my opinions on this issue, or to debate with somebody whose opinions on this issue are different from mine, and I normally keep out of the gun forum.

[deaniac21]

54. I have dedicated my life to perfecting my technique on the

pan flute but I have found few willing to talk about it without ridiculing me.

[JustFiveMoreMinutes]

56. Slaughtering horses for Human Consumption

Thought it was stupid when CA did it years ago.

... and still think it's stupid, now that it's passed the National Level.

[Xenotime]

58. I think it's horrible even to kill animals for food...

That too should be cause for punishment.

[Spider Jerusalem]

87. That's not a radical opinion.

That's a completely INSANE opinion.

Humans are omnivores. Meat-eating is something we've evolved to do; it's morally neutral behaviour. Chimpanzees are one of the primate species most closely related to humans; they hunt and kill for food in the wild. Would you find some way to turn THEM into vegans? What about Bengal tigers?

[moondust]

59. Afraid? Nah.

Here's one:

I'm a huge Olbermann fan but I think his latest commentary asking for an apology from Bush is over the top. The objectionable Bushism was something like "no one should think...blah blah blah." I don't think it was some kind of Freudian slip that carries some deep meaning. I think it was just another ignorant thing that popped into his tiny brain and he blurted it out without thinking or knowing what he was saying. I cannot take either the flub or the commentary about the flub seriously.

[lonestarnot]

171. hmmmf. Tiny brain? Ignorant thing?

You hiding here in this big thread or are you for real?

[Nederland]

60. Yup

I voted libertarian a few times.

[Zavulon]

61. Jeez, and I hit my first milestone today....now this...

Okay, here goes. Having just hit 100 posts, I hope I'm around for 200 - but if these views are unsuitable, I suppose it's best to find out now. I invite feedback as long as it's not abusive. I don't know anyone who agrees with one party 100% anyway, so I guess now's the time to find out whether 75-80% is good enough. Go easy on me, please, I'm new at the political junkie world.

1.) I fully support the UN but think Kofi Annan is an ineffective and corrupt asshole.

2.) I believe single people with no dependents do not get a fair shake by our tax code, and before anyone asks, yes - I have heard of the marriage penalty.

3.) I support the idea of the Kyoto Treaty, but would never support signing a treaty that exempts India and China.

4.) I would like to see movie theaters and restaurants force you to check your cell phone at the door.

5.) I support school vouchers, and get very pissed off when I see a politician who comes out against them but sends his or her kid(s) to private schools, Democrat or not.

6.) I support tighter gun controls but would never support a complete ban.

7.) I thought that the conservative judges were right in Kelo v. New London. Yes, that's right - I actually agreed with Scalia :puke:

8.) Although I clearly believe the Democratic platform is better for the country than the Repug regime, I do believe most politicians are more interested in their careers than they are in representing their constituents, and I do not limit that accusation to Republicans.

[lonestarnot]

172. Enjoy your stay.

:evilgrin:

[Jed Dilligan]

63. There's ones I know start fights...

Like not wanting the US to stay one country.

But I wouldn't be afraid to say anything unless it broke an actual law that someone actually cares about enforcing. And if I believed anything like that I wouldn't post it here.

[undeterred]

66. Yes, I am afraid that the country has been taken over by immoral lunatics

who plan to spread American imperialism all over the world, starting with the Middle East. I'm afraid that they want their plan accomplished so badly that they facilitated the worst disaster ever to happen on American soil 5 years ago, totally got away with it, and have used it ever since as a license to kill, maim, and torture. I'm afraid that these people have absolutely no regard for the Constitution or the wishes of the American people. I'm afraid that our Democracy is in its "last throes" and meanwhile most people sit back and do absolutely nothing to protest or intervene.

[Keepontruking]

197. What the Hell-o

why are we all sitting on our Butts Please there is work to be
done do you really want another year and a half with Bush even
if congress/senate is Democrat???????????/  Get real Why is he
not impeached?//  why is he not answering to all the rules he
has broken do we put up with Dictators cause that is what we
have..........take a look around people ...get with the
program.voting in polls, and writing e-mails isn't going to do
it if you don;t remember the 60's research it......TAKE A
RISK...........IT IS TIME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Circus Girl

[Mutley]

72. Yeah, I do.

Conservatives are people, too. Many of them are not evil, just naive.







:hide:

[marions ghost]

85. I will agree

that many conservatives are naively evil. But many of them are not naively evil. Some days it's hard to tell the difference.

[dback]

74. OK, here are my freeper moments:

1) If you commit a violent crime--assault, rape, murder, etc.--you go to jail for life. No parole, no "rehabilitation." You want out, you have to get a letter of pardon from the victims or his/her family. Let's release the non-violent drug possession cases involving folks who were caught with weed, and let's get the serious criminals off the streets.

2) Close the damn border. This is not about racism, this is about economics--Mexico is offering its people no incentive to stay there, so they come here, use the services, & send most of their money back home rather than invest in the local community. I've worked with illegal immigrants, I've taught their kids, and trust me, the way things are is not working for anyone. (The "second language" class was one of the worst behaved and least-motivated I've ever experienced.) Anyone who's already here should get amnesty, and that's that. (And yes, that includes Canada as well--but you may have noticed we don't have a mass wave of Canadians coming into the U.S. and pulling this crap.)

3) Streamline bureacucracy. People wouldn't be so anti-government if they didn't feel like it was a faceless monster with 10,000 pages of forms designed to make their lives hell. (Even something as simple as putting an awning over a shop gets the city involved, the chamber of commerce, the planning committee, etc. Weeks and several hundred dollars in paperwork and applications later...)

4) We are never going to get rid of the military, so stop whining about it. We can, however, get rid of all the Defense Department boondoggles that make us waste billions on unnecessary weaons we don't need at the expense of basic equipment that we do. And for God's sake, eliminate "don't ask don't tell."

5) The right wing has gone berserk with the Christmas thing--but liberals have to acknowledge that Christmas is indeed a holiday (besides Hannukkah and Ramadan) that happens in December. If a school pageant throws "Away In A Manger" or "Silent Night" into its program along with other holiday songs and festivities, people's heads don't need to explode. Save the firepower for the big stuff. (Like Easter.)

I'm sure I'll think of more later.

[AbbyR]

135. Our ESL kids are great

I agree with you on everything except the ESL classes. I've been in them, helped teach them, read to them and covered their parent meetings, and I have to say that if I ever went back to the classroom as a teacher, the ESL class is the one I'd want. These have consistently been the most beautifully behaved, motivated, good-mannered, kind and dedicated students I've ever known. When a parent night is held, if there are 20 kids in the ESL class, close to 100 parents, grandparents and friends show up to support the children and their teachers.

It must depend on the area, because our ESL kids are great. But I agree on closing the borders - we just can't take any more.





"2) Close the damn border. This is not about racism, this is about economics--Mexico is offering its people no incentive to stay there, so they come here, use the services, & send most of their money back home rather than invest in the local community. I've worked with illegal immigrants, I've taught their kids, and trust me, the way things are is not working for anyone. (The "second language" class was one of the worst behaved and least-motivated I've ever experienced.)"

[dback]

189. Maybe so. Weird, it was a very "monied" district, award-winning school.

Every other class that day was a dream, except that one. It was downright bizarre. I don't know if their teacher usually treated them like garbage so they had a lot of pent-up hostility or what, but I could tell that the overwhelming majority of them had no desire to be there whatsoever, and they weren't afraid to let their displeasure out. Jeez, people, how hard is it to watch a video for 45 minutes?

[lumberjack_jeff]

76. Fire departments waste money.

If that doesn't get me flamed, I don't know what will.

[cmd]

180. Fire departments save tons of money.........

for insurance companies. Insurance companies should be paying for them.

[loudsue]

196. Fire departments also save lives.

Once it's happened to you or someone you love (that their life was saved by a firefighter), you'd feel a whole lot differently.

They couldn't pay me enough money to do what those guys do, and they don't make as much money as it's worth for doing it.

[AntiFascist]

78. Here's a couple...

The internet may provide a solution to election fraud: providing a central place where votes and vote totals can be verified by everyone. The problem is we may have to lose our right of privacy in the voting booth.

Cross-breeds are the "master race". This would include many black people within the US.

[Odin2005]

79. I have no problems with GMO's in prinicple.

I hate Luddites.

[lpbk2713]

81. I'm for unions and the Labor Movement.

Always have been, always will be. Not afraid to say so.



While that is probably not a 'radical' opinion, somehow it doesn't seem to be a popular opinion any more.

[bobbolink]

82. If that's the best you can do for "radical"... ^_^

WE'll hafta have a discussion about "radical" some day.... :rofl:

I'm bugged by those who care deeply about animals, but can't be bothered with people.

I keep thinking of the homeless man with the sign that said: "If I was a dog, would you help me?"

Kinda says it all....

[hyphenate]

132. Well, it's the watered down

version. If I actually said what I really felt, there would be more flames and far less people. :)

I belonged to groups like PETA and HSUS and SPCA for many, many years, and found the research end to be the most horrific area of abuse that anyone could imagine--and more. The apathy toward animals in these research facilities was enough to make me sick many times over. I quit getting the newsletters because it was like following this presidency--you figure, how much worse can it get? and then, yeah, evidence of worse things comes in. I couldn't take it anymore. I knew too much already, and still donate, but I refuse to look anymore because it simply breaks my heart and makes me want to cry too much. And being in a clinical depression really makes me realize my threshold of holding up is too low now to even look at it.

So, yeah--if I really wanted to go full tilt, I would probably be a member of LCA or some other really radical group, bombing research labs, freeing foxes from farms, and worse. But I try to keep some restraint on myself and instead dream of some wonderful fantasies of vengeance, but never quite implementing them. :)

[sofa king]

88. I think certain cetaceans and higher apes should have "human" rights.

Yeah, I know it's a loopy idea, but I think some of those critters think and feel enough that they should be accorded some of the rights we modern-day people consider to be "human" rights. That can and should include exclusive domain over certain lands, or exclusive fishing rights in certain areas.

In most cases, the primary right they need is freedom from being eaten and turned into trophies, but I think they need more than that.

[DarkTirade]

104. I don't know if I'd agree about 'human' rights... but some kind of rights

for the more intelligent animals would be nice. Especially those obviously on borderline sentience... like dolphins and the more intelligent apes.

[nedbal]

89. nuke the Middle East, turn the sand to glass, pump the oil out, period

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14191504/

There is an historical precedent: ancient Rome. Rome, too, had a strategy of deterrence by cost. To work, Rome found, the cost had to be horrifying. In a struggle lasting 120 years, Rome fought three wars against Carthage, its main rival in the Mediterranean. The great Carthaginian general, Hannibal, even penetrated northern Italy and inflicted on Rome a defeat of strategic proportions at Cannae. Rome realized that only total destruction would end the contest: Scipio took Carthage, slaughtered most of its inhabitants and sold the rest into slavery, razed the city and sowed its fields with salt. Scipio's savagery did actually deter, over the next several hundred years, other ambitious Mediterranean powers. It failed, however, against the Germanic tribes that ultimately swarmed across Rome's frontiers. Why? Because they, like Hizbullah, were nonstate actors.

[Zhade]

166. Get therapy. Immediately.

NT!

[marions ghost]

90. not many

radical opinions I'm afraid of voicing. I don't have to worry about being 'popular.'

OK here's one--I think voting should be mandatory because this equalizes access to voting and removes several insidious methods of disenfranchisement. It also sends a strong message to young people that participation is expected. If we really cared about extending the vote to everyone, this would not be such a taboo topic.

In addition, I think everyone in the country should hand mark a paper ballot. These can be scanned on simple opti-scanners, but they also need to be verified by hand-counting. The two methods can be used to check each other. I am talking about hand-counting EVERY election, with partial hand-counts during the election, and a full hand recount afterwards. If a candidate still wants a further recount, that can be done, but this should make that less necessary. We should have spent the money wasted on the HAVA boondoggle on improving the system's overall integrity. But you would have to care about election integrity.

Election periods should be 2 weeks long.

[loudsue]

198. AMEN AND AMEN!!! Clean up the electoral process.

:loveya: You've made the most revolutionary post so far!

:kick::kick::kick:

[and-justice-for-all]

91. The abolishment of ALL Religion!

[NotGivingUp]

153. the world would be a better place

[rman]

93. You do put man on a different level than the rest of the animals.

Unless you think that abuse of a human too should be punished with execution - to which i also would not agree.

I for one think that punishment should be in proportion to the crime. Your idea of justice reminds me of mandatory minimum sentences and "three strikes you're out".

To respond to your question: yes i have radical opinions, no i'm not affraid to voice them.

[kdpeters]

96. Ooooh. Dangerous question. Yes, and I'm still scared to ask, but here ..

I believe that there's much too much hysteria over sex between minors and adults such that you can't ever discuss the difference between a rape on a pre-pubescent child and a consensual blow job between a sexually experienced teen and an adult.

There I said it. Now watch for someone to say I condone pedophilia. No. I don't. I don't even condone sex for any teen, and certainly not with an adult. But there are degrees of harm and we should be mature enough to weigh the punishment thereof. I initiated an affectionate and eventually sexual relationship at 14 with a man 10 years older who knew less than I did. I look back fondly on that time. It wasn't traumatic at all. I had no idea people might think him a predator and me a victim until long after it was over. I was just scared we might be found out for being gay.

It can't be legal. That's not my point. There must be lines drawn, but to see no difference between the rape of a child and a consensual encounter with a sexually mature young man is not at all justice. But even in liberal circles, it seems the only acceptable response to adult/minor sexual encounters is hysteria, apoplexy, and telling me I don't know how abused and tormented I was. Bullshit. I was hitting the ceiling. It wasn't appropriate, but it was in no way unwelcome.

[DarkTirade]

105. Yeah, there is some ridiculousness there.

I don't know how many states have laws about age of consent, but for those that don't... an 18 year old in a relationship with a 17 year old can get arrested. That's kinda screwed up.
Hell, I lost my virginity when I was 19. She was 16, and she wasn't a virgin. So who was taking whose innocense there? Yet I could have gotten in trouble for it.
Yes, there should be a line there... but the reality of growing up it makes for a very fuzzy line.

[pecwae]

98. Same as you.

Being a voice for the voiceless is my passion. To this day I am guilt ridden over not dognapping a retriever who was in the research department of the VA. He had had his vocal cord cut so he couldn't bark. I saw him and his tail began to wag; all he wanted was love and his destiny was to be experimented upon and his lifeless body thrown into the incinerator. Now I'm crying all over again. I cannot get past this grievous error. I cannot forgive myself. I was so damn wrong not to try to save him! There was no one to speak for him but me and I failed to take up my responsiblity.

[hyphenate]

184. It is often difficult

to do what must be done, but we grow through experience. I'm not sure I personally have the courage to do what needs to be done, either, most of the time, but I can make some motions that can help in some ways, now by getting hold of people who CAN help legally, and who might be able to do what I, a poor individual, cannot.

I hate research laboratories. And years ago, long before the net, I helped PETA stop one Army bastard from shooting cats in the head to see what "head trauma" in "war" was like. The argument was that cats didn't have the same brain as humans, and after some patience and persistence, the guy terminated his experiements. It was a day of victory for the animals, but not so much for everyone. There are so many evil people out there that think that animals are less than humans and that it is a lifelong pursuit to stop it from happening. PETA might get bad press for some of their moves, but they DO bring major topics to the fore and get some things done right. Sometimes I think they do the little stuff specifically to get people to mock them on it, because with the trivial stuff being looked at lightly, the heavy stuff gets serious attention.

It's still a long battle, because there are still too many people who don't think of animals as important as humans, and it's a mindset that needs to be changed, even if it takes several generations more to do it.

:hug: on the dog. Hopefully, he will be one of the last to suffer, and I'm sure he is well taken care of at the Rainbow Bridge. :hug:

[LeftishBrit]

99. A few...

I consider that with a very few exceptions, the American Democrats are really a moderate/ centre party, and would be treated as such in most Europaean countries. Nothing wrong with that - I vote for my own country's centre party more often than not. But I certainly don't consider Democrats as very left-wing.

I think my own country should have term limits on top leaders the way the Americans do. I don't think there should be term limits on MPs or members of Congress; however (shoving my oar in where perhaps it doesn't belong), I think that it might be better if congressional committee chairs rotated, and were not based on seniority/ length of service.

I agree with Donald that being a judge should not be an elected position.

I think that independent and third-parties are, in principle, a good thing for democracy. Under the present circumstances, it would be wise not to run such candidacies if they are likely to cause the election of a very evil person - as when Nader's candidacy contributed to Bush's election. But I think that the ultimate aim should be to change the electoral system (in both our countries) to be more representative; not to prevent independent candidates from running.

On the animal rights subject: I do believe that those who commit violence in the cause of animal rights (especially when they target those who are only 'guilty by association' - e.g. family members) are in just the same bad category as anyone else who commits violence to support their cause - e.g. those who bomb abortion clinics. This has nothing to do with animal rights activists as a group; just those who are violent.

I tend to be a bit sceptical about most conspiracy theories, and certainly about LIHOP/MIHOP. I think that a combination of incompetence, selfishness, and cover-ups after the event can have almost as lethal a result as a systematic conspiracy, and are much commoner.

I don't consider that 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend' - whether on the left or the right.

I don't think any religion is dangerous in itself (and I am an atheist). I think that the use of religion to intimidate others and gain political power is dangerous - whatever the religion. Nor do I think that Christianity is necessarily linked to right-wing politics, though some right-wing groups have gained power by implying this. In fact, in the UK, Thatcher had a very tense relationship with the Church of England leadership, because several bishops criticized her social policies from the left.

[alcibiades_mystery]

101. I think the concept of "speaking truth to power" is stupid

I'm a Foucauldian on this point: the very exercise of the speech is part and parcel of the power arrangement. Nobody is trying to silence anybody. That's not how power works. Power works primarily through production, not silencing. That means that your "speaking truth to power" is an effect of the current power arrangements, and that your so-called "dissent" when you "speak truth to power" is actually an element necessary to the maintanence of power as it is. The notion of "speaking truth to power" relies on a dubious notion: that one group holds power, while the other is powerless. The powerless group tries to promote "truth" (specifically, the truth of their own powerlessness), while the group with power tries to suppress it. This is nonsense. Power operates throughout the social body, stem to stern, all the way down. The very truth you seek to expose when you "speak truth to power" is an effect of the arrangement of power, not something residing outside of it, so when you "speak truth to power," you are only confirming and prolonging and intensifying the current arrengement of it. This is remarkably evident in the cases of protests against Mr. Bush. They are a constituent element of his Presidency, which wouldn't be able to maintain itself without them. People think that Bush hates protests. On a personal level, that's probably true, but as a matter of power, he should love them. He needs them.

I'd wager that I'm the only person on DU with these views.

How can there be a truth of history when there is a history of truth? - Michel Foucault

[The2ndWheel]

114. And you would lose that bet, nt

[alcibiades_mystery]

120. Hell...that's a bet I'm HAPPY to lose

The silly idea of 'speaking truth to power' seems damn near universal on these boards (if not everywhere). It is beyond question, a cultural commonplace. So, cheers.

[kdpeters]

116. How would you test that hypothesis?

[alcibiades_mystery]

118. You would demonstrate historically

how the notion of 'speaking truth to power' came about, with what discourses and movements it was associated, and what its actual effects have been. While you were at it, you'd probably also have to question the idea of "testing" hypothesis. :-)

[marions ghost]

129. I THINK I follow you....

-"Speech is part and parcel of the power arrangement." Got that.

-"Power works primarily through production, not silencing."
?? Production?

-"Dissent ...is actually an element necessary to maintenance of power as it is."
Well yes, I certainly can think of some examples that would support that (but only in a sick system??).

-"A dubious notion...that one group holds power while the other is powerless."
You lost me--are those that control the money, resources, govt, courts, military--are these not the powerful as opposed to the powerless?

--"when you speak Truth to Power, you are only confirming...the current arrangement..." OK, I grant you that B*sh judges how effective he is by the amount of protest he receives from the 'powerless' group. He knows he's successful if there's a measurable reaction. It reinforces his sense of power, and it galvanizes the conservative forces. I think this is what you mean?

Maybe what you are saying is that it's useless to "speak Truth to Power" because Power is never going to hear Truth, because it never will be their truth. So maybe we are better off just speaking Truth to anyone who is receptive, to bring about change --rather than to those who wield power in a tyrannical regime? In democracies people are supposed to have the power, but clearly we do not in this country now. So we should accept this and use different means to promote our Truth?

--------

OK so how is operating within this concept of speaking truth to power hurting us? What way should we do it differently? So dissent is useless? What are the options for changing anything? What are the way to oppose or control those in power that don't fall into this trap of supporting their agenda?

I think there are some interesting thoughts in this perspective. Excuse my lack of background. I am trying to understand the implications of what you are saying.

[Chomskyite]

170. But Foucault also believed . . .

. . . in local effects. He himself took part in protests galore to the end of his life because he thought protests were the kinds of local effects that could cause a power structure to have to rearrange itself in response. Often some sort of justice would be done through that rearrangement.

[alcibiades_mystery]

176. Yes, but it had nothing to do with "speaking truth to power"

For Foucault, that very expression is utterly ridiculous.

[ms liberty]

103. Yes. Flame wars often stop me from expressing opinions

and sometimes I just avoid the thread entirely. Here's a few:

I'd like to discuss or ask questions sometimes about Israel/Palestinian issues. But that is the most flame-inducing subject here on DU. I pretty much avoid those threads because there is so little civility - OK, there's no civility at all. It mirrors the problem we have in the real world - everyone's invested in their own opinions and prejudgments, and no one listens, they just talk AT each other.

I'm southern. I'm not ashamed of it. As a southerner, I get very tired of being bashed. The history of the south is far more complex than most realize or will admit. Southerners are far more complex than people realize or will admit. I've had only one post deleted in all the time I've been here, and it was a response to a derogatory statement about southerners. I've self deleted responses several times on this subject because I like to remain reasonable and civil when posting, and south-bashing gets my dander up in a major way. I take it personally because my family has been in the south for more than 250 years. And I've deleted 3 sentences in this paragraph.

Prostitution should be legalized. Any adult choosing to make their living that way should be licensed, and to get and keep that license they should have to follow regulations. Like blood testing every four weeks, for instance. There are other regulations that should be enacted, but I'm not posting this to discuss the issue in depth.

All drugs should be legalized. Marijuana should be freely available to anyone over 18. Any other should be prescribed by a physician. Heroin and other highly addictive drugs should be strictly controlled so that current addicts are treated so as to maximize their ability to live in something approaching a healthy manner.

[kdpeters]

174. Re: southerners, same here.

I'd like to discuss or ask questions sometimes about Israel/Palestinian issues. But that is the most flame-inducing subject here on DU. I pretty much avoid those threads because there is so little civility

Same here. Sometimes I've tried to get some perspective, and it's not ever easy to admit in an internet forum that you could use some guidance in educating yourself on a topic everyone else has been discussing for decades. I still don't think I've ever discussed the Palestinian point of view with a Palestinian, but the Israeli's I've questioned don't often seem to tolerate any benefit of doubt extended toward Arabs. Worse yet, right-wing Christians seem determined to paint everyone who doesn't encourage Israel into war and violence as an anti-Semite. What I'd really want to know is what it means to be a Jewish state. If there are laws respecting the establishment of a religion, I don't understand why Americans support that. If it is a secular democracy with a separation of church and state, then what's the significance of the state being Jewish.

Another thing: I hear over and over that Israel has a right to exist and that Israel has a right to defend itself. Every time, I can't help waiting a moment for the obvious follow up. "Palestine has a right to exist and Palestinians have a right to defend themselves." But it never comes. What gives? Do they or do they not have the same rights as Israelis? Yes or no?

One last thing. Isn't the land holy to Jews, Christians, and Muslims? If so, shouldn't it be shared since all worship the same God?

I'm southern. I'm not ashamed of it. As a southerner, I get very tired of being bashed.

Southerner here too, and proud of the special things that make it home, and working to fix what I'm not so proud of. Those who bash have no opinion worth heeding, while those with meaning full opinions already appreciate what we offer.

[GliderGuider]

106. I seem to make a career out of holding radical views

Let's see, where to start?

- Legalize all drugs. ALL of them, from pot to LSD to heroin and meth.
- Permit abortions at any stage of pregnancy on only the woman's request, and the father has no legal standing to interfere.
- MIHOP.
- Industrial civilization is about to collapse with the loss of 80%+ of the human population within the next 50 years, due to a combination of oil depletion and climate change.
- Eating animals is natural, and a good thing. Smoked horse meat tastes particularly good.
- On balance, religions are a force of evil in human society.
- Sex for mutual pleasure is something to be encouraged, no matter who (or how many or how old) the partners happen to be.
- In particular, older, experienced women having consensual sex with boys aged 14 and over is a good thing.
- Fidelity and sexual exclusivity are not the same thing.

That should do it for now. And yes, these are my actual opinions.

[kiki]

110. SEINFELD

I think Seinfeld is nauseatingly smug, often quite offensive (and no, not in an 'ironic' way) and, above all, about as funny as someone breaking into your house, stealing everything you own, and shitting on your floor. I find it utterly bewildering that intelligent people like this show. It's an opinion that rarely goes down too well around here (or anywhere else).

Oh, and those LOTR movies fuckin' sucked as well. :)

[William Bloode]

111. Not really.

I do hold the controversial position that a bit of violence is a good thing, and being politically incorrect should be a pastime.

[spooked]

112. Here's Mine: I don't think everyone should be educated in school

I think there are so many kids who would be so much happier learning a trade. Perhaps after 2 years of high school, or even right after Middle School, some kids would be better off going into an apprenticeship program to learn a trade.

Kids who are not capable of or invested in meeting the academic standards of high school often disrupt the classroom and prevent those who WANT to be there and are CAPABLE of doing the work from achieving their own success.

[treestar]

125. I agree with that. Just because society now has the overall wealth

to get everyone a high school education does not mean that everyone is suited to it. There are a few whom it frustrates more than it helps.

[ikojo]

200. I agree...I don't think all kids need to go to college

There will always be a need for plumbers and mechanics and electricians, just to name a few. There is no shame in doing a trade and those jobs cannot be sent to India or China.

I think we do a disservice to kids when we assume college is a right. The two years or so they spend in college could have been spent becoming a journeyman in a trade and they'd be that much closer to the next level.

[spooked]

113. One More: People in Prisons should help Build Homes for Katrina Victims

So many people in prison just sitting there when there is so much work to be done!!

[jeffuppy]

148. How about let them out?

Most of them don't belong there to begin with.

[treestar]

117. I see your point, some look at it from the view of the human actor

rather than saying it is just an animal that is the victim, they focus more on the view from the perpetrator, and that is is more evil to hurt something that can't fight back - if you attack another person, an adult, they can at least fight you back, so if you attack an animal, or child, you are choosing to attack a being who can't fight you back.

Though it still makes sense to draw the line somewhere, like killing flies or such, or something with arguable use, like hunting/slaughter for food.

[Arugula Latte]

122. Yep. I can't say a few things in my head.

They would get me banned.

[IronLionZion]

127. Yeah, I think convicted criminals deserve corporal punishment

like they have in some countries like Singapore. And prisoners don't need some of the perks they have such as TV, gyms, etc. And we should do more to keep them from attacking each other too. Prisons should be more like Tent City in Arizona.

And I feel we should have much more aggressive prosecution of corporate criminals and big-time tax evaders.

I suppose I'm in a law and order mood today. But I would also decriminalize marijuana and prostitution and use the death penalty only in extreme circumstances. Timothy McVeigh is an extreme circumstance. The guy who catches his wife in bed with his neighbor and kills them both is not.

[Stardust]

169. Those prison perks are granted to stifle rebellion. The huge

numbers in our prison system could easily become uncontrollable if they had nothing but idle time on their hands. They aren't being "rewarded," per se, just subdued.

[IronLionZion]

181. I understand what you are saying

but there are ways to punish them while still respecting human rights. Attica happened because of human rights violations.

Check out what this revolutionary sherriff is doing: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Arpaio#.22America.27s_toughest_sheriff.22

Most of his actions are controversial and some may go too far. But it certainly is a strong deterrent to crime in Maricopa county.

[KyndCulture]

131. 9/11 was an inside job.

cept I say it all the time.

[Odin2005]

133. Some more "nonkosher opinions I have:

Race isn't a social construct. That notion is based on outdated data that seems to show that populations didn't cluster genetically on statistical charts. New data shows that populations tend to fall into clusters that coincide with the 5 races used by physical anthropologists.

The MIHOP people are nuts.

The enviromentalist movement has been hijacked by primitivist luddites who think technology is the root of all evil.

Enviromentally conscious DUers need to quit bastardizing the Gaia Hypothesis into some spiritual rubbish.

[Vinca]

137. I want to do away with the IRS and have a national sales tax.

I'm sure that's flame bait. As for animal abusers, I agree with the original poster. If it was my animal that was abused there would be no need for a trial because the perpetrator wouldn't live long enough to get to the court.

[Dutch]

140. No, but for what it's worth I agree 100% with your views on animal abusers

I mean, I have plenty of radical views, but I don't really care what anyone here thinks about them.

[CrispyQ]

142. Human beings suck.

There are many stellar individuals, but as a collective, we suck. It's a constant struggle to progress & evolve as a collective because we are continually sinking to the lowest common denominator.

I totally agree with you on the way we treat animals, all animals. People rationalize animal exploitation, experimentation & abuse with statements like "it doesn't matter because they have no soul." When I read the things that we do to Earth's creatures in the name of science & health & our palates, I question which species it is that has no soul.

[Name removed]

144. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JoMama49]

145. i have a really radical conjecture i can share -- i suspect

that the flights that supposedly hit the towers on 911 were really diverted off course -- probably into the atlantic ocean a few miles out. What would happen if someone was able to recover a piece of one of those planes? all of us conspiracy theorists would be vindicated, well at least in regard to 911!

[jeffuppy]

151. I think Jason Leopold

was flying the second plane to hit the WTC on 9-11.

[MikeH]

154. I wish women, in non-trivial numbers, would let their body hair grow out

I have expressed this before in previous posts, but I thought I would use this thread to express it again.

I think it is crazy that in this society women practically *have to* go through all kinds of pain and trouble to get rid of any body hair. It has always bothered me that just about anything has become acceptable in our society at some time since the 1960's except for natural body hair on women.

I have had an attraction to body hair on women since I was an adolescent, particularly hairy legs. I have seen a few women with hairy or unshaven legs when I was in college in the 1970's. It was one of my disappointments that that never became more common since.

I know that there are at least some other men who have an attraction to body hair on women; in fact I suspect that there are many who keep silent about it.

I respect that some women prefer to remove their body hair, and some men and women personally much prefer women with their body hair removed.

However I cannot respect the attitude that women having hairy legs or underarms or other body hair is wrong, and that anybody who likes such is some kind of sicko. That attitude is no different than the attitude that being attracted to somebody of the same sex is wrong and unnatural, or that it is wrong for men to wear long (head) hair.

[marions ghost]

183. LOL you get the prize

for zaniest contribution to this thread IMO.

There's probably a club for hair-preferred already but if not, you should start one.

[StraightDope]

159. Only my crazy opinions about MIHOP and Israeli foreign policy.

[WillyT]

160. Yes

[walldude]

161. Interesting... basically what you are asking is

Have things gotten so bad that you are editing your own thoughts? My answer would be no but we're getting close.

[Warren DeMontague]

163. I think the drug war is a waste of time, I'm opposed to censorship

or government regulation of what consenting adults can watch, read, or do in the privacy of their own homes or with their own bodies, insofar as everyone involved is a consenting adult and they aren't harming or endangering anyone else. I think people should have FULL autonomous control over their own bodies, from reproductive decisions to end-of-life choices. Needless to say, I don't think my tax dollars should be busy hauling pot smoking cancer grannies off to jail or arresting people like Tommy Chong and Willie Nelson.

But my socially libertarian leanings are pretty well into the mainstream around here.

Probably the most unpopular view around here that I hold these days is that I actually do think the exemption on the Estate Tax needs to be permanently raised. (But hey- so does Barbara Boxer; probably because we're both from California and as such we see how easy it is for the cost of real estate to put someone's estate valuation over the Million mark. I don't think anyone should have to sell their house to pay the estate taxes on it.)

[spacelady]

164. George W. Bush Is The AntiChrist. And I have never said that about

anyone else before or since. I cannot stress this point more adamantly. The End.

[kiahzero]

165. I'm on the record as saying that the evidence that the SOA is evil is weak

I recall all sorts of fun names being thrown at me for that one.

[Chomskyite]

167. My darker opinions

I think it might take violence to rid the Bushies and their influence from our politics.

I think it will require the threat of violence in the form of property damage to unionize Walmart.

I think it would take at least 15 percent margins of victory to win national races in states that have gone Diebold. And given that, the likelihood of the Democrats ever taking control of any branch of government again is nil.

[Cleita]

168. That's not even radical. It should be mainstream.

I don't even like it when animals are injured even passively like destroying the neighborhoods they live in, let alone active abuse of all kinds.

However, I have a lot of socialist opinions which might be considered too "commie" for DU that I don't air.

[Raksha]

173. Yeah...I've lost so much faith in the validity of our electoral system

that I sometimes think a military coup is the only way we'll ever get rid of Bush and neocons. I fantasize about mutiny on a grand scale, like a buch of generals walking into the White House one day and flat-out ARRESTING the SOB!!!

[Hubert Flottz]

185. Sometimes I really do think that Bush is the DEVIL!

I thought that LONG before yesterday too!

Edit...He Smells like Hell!

[MrCoffee]

186. We should restrict the franchise, and jury pools are crap.

[TheFriedPiper]

187. I can't even tell you what it is here, they deleted my message.

religious protectionism and all that

[hyphenate]

191. Depends on how you worded it

Perhaps that was the problem? Radical opinions with threats aren't gonna go over well anywhere, but I'm afraid I never got to see your original posting, so I don't know. Perhaps there ARE some things even at DU that can rise the bile of opinion.

[flvegan]

188. Your "radical opinion" is quite reasonable.

The part I don't agree upon is the execution of the convicted. I believe prison should be mandatory for the lot of them, though, as well as counseling and the disallowance of their keeping of animals.

It's not a radical opinion inasmuch as it's a morally sound belief.

[hyphenate]

192. Morally sound is something many people in the U.S.

will never be able to comprehend. Let's face it: when some people justify their hatred and intolerance of other people from a passage in a bible, or others simply declare themselves above the law, it is difficult to see animals as something worthy of our compassion and deserving of rights.

Too many times over the past 25 years of my life, I have been looked at with some contempt because I tend to value animals' lives equally--and in some cases OVER--that of human beings. There are many names out there for those of us who fight for animal rights, and few of them are complimentary.

And yet, throughout history, those who have valued animals have managed to make a mark on history--Albert Schweitzer, Jeremy Bentham, John-Jacques Rousseau, Peter Singer, Tom Regan, Henry Beston--and influenced many over the years.

Yes, there are many issues and different opinions on so many of them, including those who would advocate for the discontinuation of all experimentation on higher animals, and those who might look for an end to experimentation for all non-critical research. There are those who believe that rats and mice are "ok" to do research on, but rabbits and guinea pigs are not. There are those who would terminate all animal experimentation completely, and those who would like to see animal testing eliminated by a certain date. And so on, and so forth.

Pete Singer's viewpoint which has been vastly adopted by many activists is not whether an animal has "higher functions" but is capable of feeling pain. As we already know, most sentient creatures feel pain, including cetaceans and most mammals, but some higher reptiles also feel pain, such as alligators and crocodiles, frogs, toads, snakes, lizards, and birds of almost all species. Which is, in itself, a marked problem--if we were to only experiment on animals that are likely incapable of feeling actual pain, the animal model is completely unlike the human model, and therefore the tests would not be warranted. Unfortunately, it is the mammals, in particular primates, pigs, cats, dogs and other animals close to humans both emotionally and biologically, that fit the human model extensively, and make these animals the ones most likely to be the subjects of experimentation.

Since I was in high school, things have changed radically, and for the best, though some areas have not changed at all, unfortunately. Thanks to some very brave students and their families over the past 30 years, high school biology classes have cut down the number of animals used for the dissection phase of lessons, and in some cases, have eliminated it completely in favor of computer models.

In some labs, rats and mice, for example, have been eliminated in favor of human tissue samples, which will yield more accurate results as well as saving animals.

The world of science is learning, slowly, to keep pace with the mores of those who look at their research, and who prefer to see better steps toward compassion and the welfare of those animals used in the laboratories. It's taking a long time, but someday, I hope this end of our battle will be won.

My other main concern has been the complete disregard some people have for animals in the wild, and those assholes who participate in what is known as a "canned hunt." Animals from zoos who have been "retired" and who are familiar with human contact are often cruelly shot, in cages, by those who want to "bag an animal" but don't want to go and actually "hunt it." Imagine--killing an animal for a wall trophy, and killing one who looks to the humans who took care of it all its life, only to be shot at close range by some fucker with a big gun. And we won't discuss the massive killings of tigers, leopards and others in the wild for their furs, and trinkets made from that fur. It's inhumane, it's disgusting, and in my eyes, it's criminal.

Animal rights requires a lifetime commitment on the part of those of us who fight the fight, but sometimes, like myself, there is so much grief, so much horror and terror, that unless we break off our involvement, like I have, we would go into a catatonic state and remain there. I wish things were different, but it's one of the reasons I feel mankind is not ready to go beyond our solar system and mingle with the stars because someday, a race of sentient cats is gonna find out how humans have treated its closest relatives on planet earth and they aren't gonna be very happy.