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NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-19-06 07:33 AM
Original message
Et tu, pontiff?
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Front_Page/HI20Aa01.html


Pope Benedict XVI knows a lot about Catholicism and Catholic doctrines. But no one would consider him even a lightweight authority on Islam. So it is hard to understand why he decided to conjure up a controversy regarding Islam at a time when insulting that religion seems to have become a regular indulgence of a number of people in the West who would never dare to insult any other things sacred.

In a speech at Regensburg University in Germany last Thursday, the pope quoted from a 14th-century Byzantine emperor, Manuel II Paleologos, and said, "I quote, 'Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached'." Now Muslims all over the world are deeply offended by one more incident of insulting their religion and their Prophet. The saddest aspect of it is that it is done by a man of religion who is also respected in the world of Islam.

As much as the world press depicted Benedict as an erudite theologian at the time of his election to his current position, in this particular speech he did not demonstrate any evidence of erudition regarding Islam. At the same time, it is also possible that as a propagator of his faith, he is required to develop rather simplistic, if not outright incorrect, perspectives about other religions.

In attempting to condemn violence, Benedict associated it with Islam and the Prophet Mohammed. Before questioning the veracity of that statement, it is worth pointing out that as a man who has dedicated his life to studying and comprehending his own religion, he should have remembered how much violence has been associated with his own Church. One needs to recall the enormous bloodshed and human misery caused during the Inquisition.

According to one source, one of Benedict's predecessors, pope Gregory IX, "established the Inquisition in 1231, and burning was quickly decided upon as the official punishment. Administrators and inquisitors were all answerable directly to the pope - which essentially made him directly responsible for their actions. In 1245, the pope gave inquisitors the right to absolve their assistants of any acts of violence which they might commit in the fulfillment of their duties."

The same source adds, "Torture of suspects was authorized by pope Innocent IV in 1252, and thus inquisition chambers were turned into places of abject horror." So by simplistically relating violence singly to Islam, he is indulging not only in assigning stereotypes, but also in pretending that Christianity does not have a bloody and violent history of its own.

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TechBear_Seattle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-19-06 08:18 AM
Response to Original message
1. You have to remember that, as THE prominant Christian leader...
Benedict has no choice but to say that Islam is a false religion and that Muslims are going to Hell, there to be tortured for ever and ever, amen. To say anything else undermines the fundamental premise of the Christian religion.

Of course, there's no reason why he can't just keep his big mouth shut.
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genie_weenie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-19-06 08:26 AM
Response to Original message
2. When I criticize something must I list all my
faults while doing it?

First off, IMO the Pope gave this speech to rally his base (Catholics). Why would he reference one of the last Byzantine Emperors? To make Christendom (mainly Europe) equate the "Last Days" of the Byzantine Empire with what is occurring today in Europe.

Next, there is an excellent post http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x2168726 in which a empasssioned, detailed and accurate case is made for why the poster is a Democrat. And even though in one sentence near the beginning the poster declares it is not a condemnation of individual Republicans, I am going to take some sections out of context and substitute a word or 2 (which will be in bold)

For me the difference between the two major religions of Christianity and Islama religion Christanity that stands and fights for the moral values proclaimed in the founding documents of our country and a religion, Islam that has little or no respect for those documents and the values that they proclaim. I don’t mean to imply that individual Muslims aren’t decent people. But certainly the leaders of Islam demonstrate through their behavior values that are not at all consistent with those proclaimed in our founding documents.

Christanity recognizes the catastrophic consequences of war, in terms of lost and ruined lives and debt burdens that preclude the possibility of other much needed government functions for current and future generations of Americans. Islam has a much more cavalier attitude towards war, as demonstrated by the lying and manipulating intelligence data to provide an excuse for war. That cavalier attitude is further demonstrated by the way Muslims talk about war.


If I had typed an essay titled “Why I am a Christian” and picked information to support my position while using other information to denounce my opposition, members of the DU would have attacked me and Christianity rabidly, instead of recommending it for the Greatest Page.

I’m not going to get into what so in so Democrat did or which Republican is admitting to fraud this week. What I will finish off with is Islam, Christianity, Liberalism and Conservatism are all human constructed and nurtured ideas. Some have been around for longer. But, all must be open to critique and ridicule and inspection. What we will find when we do that is it usually is a person (Bush or UBL) or a small band of people (Republican Congress Leaders or AQ) which commit some serious crime(s) and end up blemishing a respectable system of thought and belief for the 99% of followers who are moral and decent.
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-19-06 08:28 AM
Response to Original message
3. I reject that writer's conclusion and would recommend instead
Edited on Tue Sep-19-06 08:29 AM by Old Crusoe
this one:

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/19/opinion/19allen.html

--from this morning's Op-Ed page of the NYTimes.
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Solo_in_MD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-19-06 09:49 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. Concur
The NYT piece was one of the better ones out there.

At DU some critiize xtains as the worst evil on earth but many give the muslims a free pass. This is to be expected since most of us live in NA where xtians are everywhere and there are few muslims, esp high profile ones. The debate over the cartoons was a clear example of that. People need to wake up and realize that while xtians are noxious, the fundie muslims are several orders of magnitude worse.
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NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-19-06 09:59 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. Yea, remember those millions of Vietnamese them Muslims killed?
Or the millions of Jews those Muslims killed in Nazi Germany?

Oh wait a minute...

Don
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genie_weenie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-19-06 10:34 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. Yea! Or all those killed during the
Taiping Rebellion in China! Goddamn Bigoted Christians! This *proves* Chrisitanity is evil and nothing else is...
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Solo_in_MD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-19-06 10:59 AM
Response to Reply #5
9. Look at the situation today, not 60 years ago...
Xtians, are a pretty tame lot these days. They can be noxious, but not really dangerous. No beheadings, no riots over inflamatory statements or presentations, no women stoned for being raped, no shootings or burning of houses of worship. The Baptists don't have death squads out looking for Methodists. No xtians are pushing the equivalent of the Sharia. However, arguably all of those are happening in the middle east and elsewhere being perpertated by Muslims. A great deal of things were done in the name of xtianity in the past, but by and large it is history.

Which is a greater danger to us day?
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-19-06 08:48 PM
Response to Reply #4
12. I was able to catch almost all of Dianne Rehm's program today on NPR,
Edited on Tue Sep-19-06 08:54 PM by Old Crusoe
featuring a prominent Catholic educator and a renown Muslim scholar.

One of the best programs she's had, and that's saying something, because she usually puts together great shows.

The two guests had understandable differences, and in some cases they were sharply differentiated by context and experience, but the tone throughout was civil.

I wish religious disputes could be resolved in the real-time world as civilly as these two folks handled it today.

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-19-06 10:46 AM
Response to Original message
7. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
genie_weenie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-19-06 11:19 AM
Response to Reply #7
10. No nuance please.
And remember "Arguments" such as The Pope was a Nazi are not fallacies according to most concerning the Pope's speeach.
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niccolos_smile Donating Member (203 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-19-06 10:54 AM
Response to Original message
8. Perhaps because the speech wasn't about Islam...

Has anyone taken that into account? I know the knuckle-draggers over at Front Page sure haven't.
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eliphaiku Donating Member (27 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-19-06 11:49 AM
Response to Original message
11. Religion
It is all wrong. What did you expect from a pope?
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