Frankly, I'm scared to death (habeas corpus)

[Generator]

You know when Du'ers always are so proud, "I'm not scared." Terra terra bwahhh.. But I'm scared. I'm scared of this administration. In fact this as got me so rattled I'm at a loss to post this but feel I must.

If this pases, I'm seriously going to have to consider leaving this country. Of considering the options. It's that serious. Frankly, I'm not sure we even have a Constitution left, if the president can attach signing statements and ignore everything congress has tried to set in law, I'm wondering if it's not already too late.

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=06/09/19/1348212

But the third issue, which has not been covered, is, to me, very critical and is in both of the pieces of legislation. In both the administration bill and in the McCain-Graham-Warner bill, in both cases you abolish the writ of habeas corpus. The government, the Congress, is abolishing the writ of habeas corpus. The habeas corpus writ is the right to challenge your detention once you’re picked up by the United States. It would apply to Guantanamo. It would apply to everybody in Bagram. And it basically says that anybody picked up, now or in the future or who is there now, no longer has the writ of habeas corpus.

For some reason, for some peculiar reason, nobody is really covering this in the media.

And what it really says is that if a king or the president picks me up anywhere in the world, that I have a right to go into court and say, “What are your reasons for detaining me?” It doesn't say you have to be freed. But it says you have to come up -- government -- come up with a legal reason for detaining me. In other words, it takes detentions, disappearances and puts them into the light of a courtroom, where the government has to justify the detention.

It's really, Amy, the fundamental right that protects us against just arbitrary arrest and disappearance.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
SO, if this passes, every freaking paranoid fear that many here have..rightly or wrongly will be legitimate. YOUR GOVERNMENT can detain you and never prosecute you,never try you in a court, never do anything. You will simply go down a black hole forever. There is no innocence left.

Am I over dramatizing? Is it not that severe? Please tell me.

I'm off to write my senators. But if this passes..I'm truly going to be scared to death to live in this country. And even if it's not me-it probably won't be me-it will be someone-someone tortured, detained, held and disappeared that is an American and I have to live with that on my conscience.

And when I think of whomever-Lieberman, Bill Clinton, whomever siding up to Bush, ignoring this-ignoring the protection of our most basic liberties-I think in the end, it's the Democrats I won't be forgiving if they don't stand up to this. I feel we have no one. We have no representation-we have no media, we have nothing. It's a feeling of dread. It's a feeling of being so alone, of watching a decent country be dismantled before your eyes.

[kestrel91316]

1. You can flee. As for me........

I'll stick around and get busy monkeywrenching. As will all patriots.

[John Gauger]

9. Damn straight!

Rather that flee I will go to that Birmingham Jail, that Concord Jail for my beliefs. I don't run when my country is in civic peril. I don't judge you for considering it though. We all have to do what we think is right.

[mmonk]

25. History shows many stick it out.

There are some that stuck it out in Germany and survived. Some in Cambodia. Many in Chile. Many in Italy. Depends on what you're willing to risk when it keeps getting worse, but at some time it ends I guess.

[Cronus Protagonist]

35. WERD!

[gully]

36. How can we patriots fight if our votes are counted?

eom

[raccoon]

53. How's that again? nt

[gully]

58. I meant not counted.

oops. guess that little word makes all the difference. i was feeling a bit cynical last night.

[mmonk]

2. I was discussing current situations with a computer

tech this morning as he worked on my computer. He indicated he was leaving. I plan to examine purchasing real estate somewhere else as a back door. Whether I make a purchase or not or sign a rental agreement, we still plan to go ahead and get passports. You are not alone in your fears.

[AX10]

3. Many times I feel that we are alone.

[Nikki Stone 1]

4. You are not overdramatizing. It's only a matter of time

I so wish you WERE overexaggerating. But this administration has trampled every damned civil right we have.

[QuestionAll...]

5. Patriot Act I

I recall the wingnuts screetching: but it doesn't apply to american citisens! but it doesn't apply to american citisens! never will it apply to american citisens!

and yes, I am scared shitless as well. All that has happened since 2000 is just unbelievable. Good lord I hate to think of what we will be talking about in 6 months from now, a year... that is if the net is still around as now.

[Armstead]

6. You're overdramatizing -- But it's still serious

I doubt this would be used in the foreseeable to deny habeus corpus in most normal circumstances. But it is still a bad precident, and lays the groundwork for much potential abuse in the future.

And it's just bad on principle. We can't be tossing out basic Constitutional protections. That's a slippery slope.

What pisses me off is that the MSM and the MSDems have not been more openly critical of that aspect of the Christmas Package Bush is demanding.

Democrats (and Republicans with any brains) ought to be fighting over that as much as over the geneva Conventions.

[elehhhhna]

34. How can we pass & enforce a bill that violates the COnstitution?

[Armstead]

50. Been doing it for five years now...

[catmandu57]

7. Go ahead on

Frankly I'm scared too, but like most other people have neither the means nor the opportunity to get out, so I'll have to stay, if I'm lucky I'll take a few out if they come for me.
Think about people like me when you're in your sanctuary.

[Generator]

8. Ha! I wish I had a sanctuary

And I hate the overdramatizing-but I feel like I'm watching it and no one's really seeing it-except you guys on DU! I feel like the miniority. And honestly, I don't want to leave MY country but when MY country becomes a threat to me and my children when do you make that decision? I'm not going to live under tyranny. It just seems they could use this is so many ways to prosecute the innocent that happen to be doing nothing but using free speech to protest the government.

[leftchick]

13. I have been watching the growing fascism for five years now

It started a little slow but has rapidly accelerated over the last three years. I have been begging and pleading with my husband that we have to get out now before it is too late. He is coming around. But no where near fast enough. I need to have him read this.

[Pacifist Patriot]

31. It does feel like a snowball rolling downhill. The pace IS accelerating.

[mmonk]

17. I'm too old to be a hero and I have children I want

to have have a decent life and am responsible for. The threat we face today is pretty impressive. It's so complete and systematic and it is helped by a public that evidently failed civics and history.

[William769]

10. They can't abolish the writ of hadeas corpus

It's a judicial mandate.

[John Gauger]

19. They can take powers away from judges if they please

If the judiciary overturns their law they can alter those judges' jurisdiction. I seem to recall the GOP trying that trick recently....

[RaleighNCDUer]

24. And if they get 5 of the Supremes to say it's legal?

That's what they've been aiming at for years.

[datasuspect]

32. i thought lincoln suspended it during the civil war?

or maybe i am misremembering something.

[colinmom71]

44. It's not a judicial mandate, it's an explicit Constitutional power...

Article I, Section 9, Clause 2 - "The privelege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it."

While Lincoln's suspension of Habeas Corpus (in both 1861 and 1862) seemingly met the above Constitutional conditions, Chief Justice Taney issued a writ of habeas corpus for a man who was arrested by the military and was presented with no charges for why he was being held in military custody. Upon review, Taney ruled that the man should be released unless he was granted due process of law and was challenged with legal charges for his detainment. He also ruled that the Executive branch does not have proper authority to suspend habeas corpus, only the Legislative branch does through an act of Congress.

The Supreme Court would later rule in Ex parte Milligan (1866) that non-military citizens could not have their right to habeas corpus suspended and be tried by military tribunal or courts when the civic courts are capable of functioning within their proper jurisdictions.

There's more thorough info here - http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig4/vance4.html


BTW, I'm pretty sure that the Habeas Corpus clause does not mean habeas corpus can be rightly suspened when WE are the invading force... Just adding this in case Rove, freepers, etc. are reading...

[struggle4progress]

49. Not "judicial mandate": their inability is written into the Constitution.

[sinkingfeeling]

11. What I don't get is how this could possibly hold up in court. The US

Constitution says, "The privilege of the writ of habeas corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in cases of rebellion or invasion the public safety may require it." (Article One, Section 9).

These idiots in Congress can't just 'override' the Constitution.

[Generator]

15. I don't know either!?

But that's what these bills can do..because the courts came back and said, oh Bush you can't do that..so he's pushing these bills to be able to do whatever he wants.

Check out this site: http://www.ccr-ny.org/v2/home.asp

Also has petitions and senators to call.

[nashville_brook]

16. they can't? what in our experience of this admin makes us think...

that they are somehow unable or above "overriding the constitution."


they've already gone to war without a declaration.
they've already imprisoned thousands without recourse.
they're already spying on us... meaning... they prolly already have all the info they need to start "rounding us up."

i'll stop here... but feel free to add to the list.

[John Gauger]

20. exactly

They have done it before and they can do it again.

[Occulus]

18. Does illegal immigration = invasion in their minds? n/t

[ContraBass Black]

26. Key Word: "Public Safety"

They just need the Supreme Court to rule that 9/11 was an invasion event, and public safety requires the measure. Not a stretch today.

[jmowreader]

41. He may call the 9/11 attack an "invasion"

And the Iraq war a "rebellion."

The only sticking point there is whether they could get a (Bush-appointed; they can judge-shop too) judge to agree that Operation Iraqi Liberation is a rebellion. I would say they couldn't.

[Wiley50]

42. So they deem us Dissenters to be in Rebellion.

Easy enough to do.
Just burn an American Reichstag
and blame it on us

[tom_paine]

46. Sadly, the old Constitution is nearly meaningless in Imperial Amerika

(except as windowing dress and for lip service)

Old America was a Constituional, Representative Democratic-Republic (now, there's a mouthful for you).

Imperial Amerika, other than the pale shadow of what is left over from Free America and fading fast, is a nation run by Imperial Fiat and a loose oligarchy dressed up and pretending it's something else.

[me b zola]

51. A few more judicial/SC appointments and it won't be our Constitution

We've all been watching this slow motion slide & part of that has been the stacking of the courts.

We're in deep doo-doo.

[redqueen]

12. I'm with you...

I will fight while I'm here... but if this passes, that may just be the last straw.

[John Gauger]

14. You say we have no one

But we are someone. Our liberties don't defend themselves. If we start making hell, we can change things. Ultimately, the People always have the power. It is up to us whether or not to exercise it. We are more powerful that the government. If they refuse to give us back our rights, Thomas Jefferson says we have the Natural Right to dissolve our government, by force if necessary. I don't advocate the use of force but we have the right to take matters into our own hands. It may be rough for a little while, but I assure you that if we are vigilant everything will turn out fine.

[Generator]

21. So true

But I've watched our reps time after time sell us out or certainly ignore the ten thousand pound elephant in the room. I can't vote on these bills. I can't hold a press conference and say, hey Mr. President if you add a signing statement to a bill against torture that says I'll torture once in awhile if I need to that means there is only one branch of government. They can. And they aren't. Conyers has. He has been ignored.

But we truly have a constitutional crisis. They took an oath to defend the Constitution, and I don't seem Democrats or Republicans doing that. I don't give a crap about their political career. I feel no one is bringing this to people's attention-not the leaders-not the media-so by the time it all happens-it's too late. 100 people protesting on a street corner is not going to stop the Bush administration. I'm not sure anyone protesting at this point does anything. They ignored the protesters before the war essentially. I don't have an answer. I like what you said but I hear this giant alarm bell in my head and I can't ignore it.

[John Gauger]

27. If you feel like you have to get out

then I won't say anything to try to stop you. We all have to do what we all have to do. Obviously I am concerned but not scared. I'm not talking about some piddly little street corner protest. I'm taking about getting a couple thousand people and trying to do someting "crazy" like going done to the WH and attempting to make a citizens' arrest. Only a handful of us will go to jail, and only for a few hours, but it will be all over the media. If we can get enough people angry about this, than we can do anything. It's all a matter of coming up with a way to get people to be aware.

[Jed Dilligan]

22. The really scary thing

How many votes would the Repugs lose if Bush rounded up each and every non-troll at DU between now and November?

[Singular73]

23. Congress can make all the laws it wants.

They can and will be challenged in the Supreme Court.

Thats what all this is about.

Thats what the JAGs are saying...that they will never get anything to stick, as it will be thrown out in SCOTUS.

[buddhamama]

28. hasn't it already?

the Ruling in the Jose Padilla case- habeas corpus.

[Generator]

30. Read this

Under two military commission bills currently being considered in the Senate, all of these men would no longer be able to contest their detentions in U.S. court. Both bills contain provisions that would retroactively strip U.S. courts of jurisdiction over the habeas petitions of the more than 450 men currently imprisoned at Guantánamo Bay. In addition, the courts would also be barred from hearing the habeas petitions of any future detainees. A simple determination that someone-even a U.S. citizen taken into custody abroad-is an 'enemy combatant' would be enough to detain them indefinitely.

The military commissions created by the legislation will try only those accused of violations of the laws of war; many of the men imprisoned at Guantánamo have been held for nearly five years without ever having been charged with a crime. These men depend on the right of habeas corpus to have their cases heard. By eliminating the power of the federal courts to hear pending habeas cases, the legislation would effectively render the McCain Amendment prohibiting cruel, inhumane or degrading treatment of detainees unenforceable and prevent any accountability for the torture or abuse of detainees.

http://www.ccr-ny.org/v2/reports/report.asp?ObjID=uyKAxgvOvy&Content=827

Retroactive-and future detainees. My we have some evil souls in our congress. I'm constantly at a loss. What "compromises" are they going to make with King George?

[Disturbed]

29. Lincoln suspended Habeas corpus during the Civil War.

The SC deemed that Unconstitutional and reinstated it.

Busholini and his Criminal Junta believe that they are above any Law. My worry is how could the SC Ruling in the coming months enforce their rulings?

[mmonk]

33. It all depends on what cases reach it

and if they feel like overturning lower courts. It will be a battle.

[mnhtnbb]

39. The court is packed in Bush's favor. That's how he gets away with it.

[MrCoffee]

37. Habeas is protected under the Constitution

Article 1, Section 9
The privilege of the writ of habeas corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in cases of rebellion or invasion the public safety may require it.

[datasuspect]

38. it is protected

but the part after "unless" is crucial.

[mnhtnbb]

40. I will say again that making plans to get out if things get ugly is

simply a matter of survival. Some are willing to go down fighting. Some of us have been fighting ('m 55 and my husband is 63) since the VietNam era. We're tired. We are cynical. We don't believe that we can make a difference any longer. We see staying and fighting and getting jailed or killed as pointless. We believe that the rest of the world may have to stand up to the U.S.--and the way they do it is by dumping dollars and refusing to extend more credit to us--the world's largest debtor nation.

Do you know what life will be like in the U.S. if that happens? It will
be chaos. Everybody has guns. People will be hungry. There will be no jobs. It won't be like the Depression when someone knocked on your back door and you shared whatever you had for supper with that person. It will be really ugly.

My husband and I don't want to chance living in that situation. So we're building a retirement home in Panama that will be ready next spring. Do I want to leave the U.S.? No. I love Chapel Hill. But I don't want to live through the chaos that I see coming, either, when I don't believe that my being here will do anything to stop it.

[Pachamama]

43. Me too...if this torture, rendition & wiretapping "Free pass/Get of Jail"

Card is given to Bush, Cheney and the rest of this neo-con cabal, we should all be afraid. My grandparents escaped Nazi Germany. They left 2 months after Kristallnacht. My Grandfather wishes that they had left before, but counts his blessings they got out when they did. I keep trying to make sure I identify our "Kristallnacht" before it happens. All I know is that if this rubber-stamping heil Bushler Congress passes laws allowing warrantless wiretapping, rendition and torture, then I think it is seriously time to consider what you exit plan is and be prepared for even more outrageous and scary stuff coming.

[redacted]

45. KICK

[proud patriot]

47. The Constitution is Ours ! No matter what laws bushco break

there will be a reckoning and the people will hold on to
The Constitution .

Good will and Justice will prevail .

[leftofthedial]

48. they already have flushed Americans down the extra-judicial rathole

2000 was a radical RW coup.

[yurbud]

52. Amy Goodman reminds again why DemocracyNow is must listen radio

I heard that this morning too, and hadn't heard or read it anywhere else.

[earth mom]

54. K & R! eom

[Allyoop]

55. Bush Enablers

My letter below to my NC Rep and Senators, also newspapers (not published yet), Graham, Warner and McCain:

The Bush administration wants to revise definitions of torture in the Geneva Conventions. Why? Experts in the “art” of interrogation say that torture will make people confess to things they never did.

Could it have something to do with the fact that his advisors have already rewritten these definitions? They came to the conclusion that any method of “interrogating” terror suspects short of causing organ failure or death was OK. The civilized world does not agree. Torture is not so hard to define. Like pornography, it may be hard to verbally identify, but you “know it when you see it”. Unfortunately, the people in this administration don’t seem to have the common decency to recognize torture when they “see” it.

The Bush administration gave the go ahead to waterboarding and rendition to countries known for using torture. They want to be able to jail suspects without revealing any evidence against them. (Habeas Corpus) Is the USA a country of laws or outlaws?

Bush has a history of making a mess of things and then being rescued by his family or family enablers. Does protecting this administration from prosecution for war crimes outweigh regaining the moral high ground the USA held until 2003? Are you a Bush Enabler?

See New York Times Opinion – Rules for the Real World 9/20/06

[Flying Dream Blues]

56. Will this apply to US citizens? If so, is it implied or stated

implicitly? My husband keeps telling me that until this is so, we shouldn't be worried...and even though I disagree, it is an important distinction. And yes, if this passes (and even if it doesn't) the Constitution and the Bill of Rights are in shreds. We will need to do a lot of work to get it back.

[mmonk]

57. I believe persons was proposed as replacement.

We should be worried because US citizens have already been detained. Giving up rights under the pretext it won't apply to you is a dangerous position to take. The whole problem has been the use of the word "terrorist" in discussing these things whereby it should be "suspects" and those being determined to be suspects are under no written clarification right now except under the fact that the president "unitary executive theory" alone is making the determinization.