I need a good bible reference

[Roon]

I know in leviticus that it says that you can't eat shellfish, have contact with a women on her period, or wear two kinds of cloth at the same time. Tattoos and other stuff are forbidden but I need a sight where I can quote the exact scripture.

If the christians fundies are gonna hold the muslims to a 600 year old scripture, I am going to hold them to theirs!!

[arcane1]

1. as requested

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/

[soothsayer]

2. try these!

Don't let cattle graze with other kinds of Cattle (Leviticus 19:19)

Don't have a variety of crops on the same field. (Leviticus 19:19)

Don't wear clothes made of more than one fabric (Leviticus 19:19)

Don't cut your hair nor shave. (Leviticus 19:27)

Any person who curseth his mother or father, must be killed. (Leviticus 20:9)

If a man cheats on his wife, or vise versa, both the man and the woman must die. (Leviticus 20:10).

If a man sleeps with his father's wife... both him and his father's wife is to be put to death. (Leviticus 20:11)

If a man sleeps with his wife and her mother they are all to be burnt to death. (Leviticus 20:14)

If a man or woman has sex with an animal, both human and animal must be killed. (Leviticus 20:15-16).

If a man has sex with a woman on her period, they are both to be "cut off from their people" (Leviticus 20:18)

Psychics, wizards, and so on are to be stoned to death. (Leviticus 20:27)

If a priest's daughter is a whore, she is to be burnt at the stake. (Leviticus 21:9)

People who have flat noses, or is blind or lame, cannot go to an altar of God (Leviticus 21:17-18)

Anyone who curses or blasphemes God, should be stoned to death by the community. (Leviticus 24:14-16)

[Roon]

8. nice!

Thanks!

[arcane1]

3. also:

http://unbound.biola.edu/

this is a good one for referencing different translations/versions/etc

[Der Blaue Engel]

4. Here's the first one Google offered

http://www.plainbible.com/

Plenty more where that came from.

[Bluerthanblue]

5. leviticus 19 here is

a snippet:

9 “ ‘When you reap the harvest of your land, do not reap to the very edges of your field or gather the gleanings of your harvest. 10 Do not go over your vineyard a second time or pick up the grapes that have fallen. Leave them for the poor and the alien. I am the Lord your God.

11 “ ‘Do not steal.

“ ‘Do not lie.

“ ‘Do not deceive one another.

12 “ ‘Do not swear falsely by my name and so profane the name of your God. I am the Lord.

13 “ ‘Do not defraud your neighbor or rob him.

“ ‘Do not hold back the wages of a hired man overnight.

14 “ ‘Do not curse the deaf or put a stumbling block in front of the blind, but fear your God. I am the Lord.

15 “ ‘Do not pervert justice; do not show partiality to the poor or favoritism to the great, but judge your neighbor fairly.

16 “ ‘Do not go about spreading slander among your people.

“ ‘Do not do anything that endangers your neighbor’s life. I am the Lord.

17 “ ‘Do not hate your brother in your heart. Rebuke your neighbor frankly so you will not share in his guilt.

18 “ ‘Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against one of your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the Lord.

19 “ ‘Keep my decrees.

“ ‘Do not mate different kinds of animals.

“ ‘Do not plant your field with two kinds of seed.

“ ‘Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material.

20 “ ‘If a man sleeps with a woman who is a slave girl promised to another man but who has not been ransomed or given her freedom, there must be due punishment. Yet they are not to be put to death, because she had not been freed. 21 The man, however, must bring a ram to the entrance to the Tent of Meeting for a guilt offering to the Lord. 22 With the ram of the guilt offering the priest is to make atonement for him before the Lord for the sin he has committed, and his sin will be forgiven.

23 “ ‘When you enter the land and plant any kind of fruit tree, regard its fruit as forbidden.* For three years you are to consider it forbidden*; it must not be eaten. 24 In the fourth year all its fruit will be holy, an offering of praise to the Lord. 25 But in the fifth year you may eat its fruit. In this way your harvest will be increased. I am the Lord your God.

26 “ ‘Do not eat any meat with the blood still in it.

“ ‘Do not practice divination or sorcery.

27 “ ‘Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard.

28 “ ‘Do not cut your bodies for the dead or put tattoo marks on yourselves. I am the Lord.

29 “ ‘Do not degrade your daughter by making her a prostitute, or the land will turn to prostitution and be filled with wickedness.

30 “ ‘Observe my Sabbaths and have reverence for my sanctuary. I am the Lord.

31 “ ‘Do not turn to mediums or seek out spiritists, for you will be defiled by them. I am the Lord your God.

32 “ ‘Rise in the presence of the aged, show respect for the elderly and revere your God. I am the Lord.

33 “ ‘When an alien lives with you in your land, do not mistreat him. 34 The alien living with you must be treated as one of your native-born. Love him as yourself, for you were aliens in Egypt. I am the Lord your God.

sorry if this pushes the rules. I'd like to know who owns the rights to the bible-?

[datasuspect]

6. maybe christians could take this cue nowadays

33 “ ‘When an alien lives with you in your land, do not mistreat him. 34 The alien living with you must be treated as one of your native-born. Love him as yourself, for you were aliens in Egypt. I am the Lord your God.


too rich

[rfranklin]

7. I bought up the rights from Michael Jackson....

Pay up, mister!

[Roon]

10. great!

This is exactly what I was looking for.

[Poppyseedman]

9. Slight problem with your premise.

The New Testament supersedes the Old Testament scripture. The new law verses the old law.

Mat 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

[Roon]

11. So, no one follows the old testament anymore?

Whew, that's a relief!!!

[zeemike]

16. If you are really looking for something to get too fundies

hit them where it hurts...Ouote Jesus.
There is so much of what he says that is just the opposite of what they do it is amazing how no one holds them accountable for it.

[Roon]

17. Maybe you can answer

Do people cite the old testament or not?

[arcane1]

19. Roy Moore and the 10 Commandments fetishists certainly do!

[Horse with no Name]

20. Yes.

Many sects of the Jewish faith do not recognize the New Testament nor the teachings of Jesus.

[Roon]

32. Will they go to hell?

:scared:

[Horse with no Name]

35. Doubtful.

I think one of the BEST sermons that I ever attended said (paraphrasing)
"it is a narrow and selfish view to believe that we Christians will be the only ones in Heaven. Almost all religions have their version of Heaven and Hell. (The minister said) he felt that God would have all of His faithful in his Kingdom--as long as they were faithful to their beliefs and lived a good and decent life, whether they were Christian or Muslim or Jewish, etc."
Anyways, the entire sermon was much more compelling than I can convey here--but it echoed what I believe.

[zeemike]

41. Yes they do when it suits their purpose.

And they ignore that which does not.
And one must remember that the old testament is an historical account of Israel not some kind of sacred text that can be used like the I Chang.
The greatest value of the old testament is in the story that is told, and so few read it for the story that the story has almost been lost to the general public.
And most do not understand the difference between the Ten Commandments and the Law of Moses. The Law was given by Moses to control the rebellious tribes that were led out of Egypt and kept in the wilderness for forty years to form them into a nation. The Ten commandments were very much like our Constitution in that it served as a guideline for the creation of all laws.
But I could go on and on but I am sure that you are not looking for that.

[smirkymonkey]

38. Here is what I don't get - Fundies are all about "Jesus this" and

"Jesus that" so why are they so wrapped up in the books of the Old Testament? I would think that being slavishly devoted to Jesus would make them reject the Old Testament entirely.

I don't know - I am honestly asking someone to explain why the Old Testament or Hebrew Bible plays such a large part in today's "Christianity" seeing as how much of what each says contradicts the other. Any biblical scholars that can explain this to me?

[zeemike]

42. I am not a biblical scholar but

I have read the bible with an open mind and with the intent to understand the STORY.
Fundies have played a trick on their followers by claiming that every part of the bible agrees with every other part of the bible so they can grab a verse out of the Songs of Solomon and use it to reinforce a point that they want to make.
If you notice one thing that fundie preachers do is that they almost never quote Jesus. Most of the time they quote Paul. And that is because most of what Jesus said is the exact opposite of what they want to preach.
I could give at least a dozen examples off the top of my head but I will spare you that.

[smirkymonkey]

45. Thanks!

I would just love to see a good fundie smackdown someday by somebody who knows the bible better than they do.

[blonndee]

54. That's because they see Jesus as their Get Out Of Hell Free card.

They like to use their idea of Jesus so they can be "forgiven" and not be held accountable for their actions, but don't apply his teachings to themselves. They basically treat Jesus like they do the Old Testament--use what suits what they want to be true or already believe, and pretend the rest doesn't exist.

[datasuspect]

26. the jews?

the hebrew bible? i think the protestant old testament and the tanakh share commonalities with the exception of the order of some books. the catholic old testament has six more books that aren't included in the tanakh.

[greendog]

40. Slight problem?

“For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:18-19 RSV)

"It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid." (Luke 16:17 NAB)

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place." (Matthew 5:17 NAB)

[Bluerthanblue]

47. 'trust me'

'I have never made a mistake in my life, everything I say and do is perfect- If you doubt this truth then you have condemned yourself to BKIUNNGE- And, as I have told you BKIUNNGE is not somewhere ANYONE would ever want to be.-"

Using the words of a book written by many different authors, translated from ancient languages, modified to fit the demands of an Emperor who claimed to follow the teachings of the text, but wouldn't actually DO what the text demands, to 'prove' that books infallability is the epitomy of foolishness isn't it?

The 'bible' claimes God made the earth and everything in it- would He/She really need 'humans' to write down the instruction manual, and expect that they wouldn't mess it up, or slant it to thier own agendas?

I believe there is truth contained in the bible, I also understand there is also alot of 'human opinion'- Using the 'opinions' of others as absolutes, is condemned in the bible itself.

But innerrancy/divine inspiration followers won't answer that contradiction.

Because the need for hard-fast-inflexible rules that dictate how life is to be lived without exception, and little introspection is what lures people into believing that the bible is the infallable, inerrant, inspired 'WORD OF GOD'. Period.

[Poppyseedman]

58. Did you even read what you posted?

Christ fulfilled the law.

[greendog]

59. Fulfilled the law?

What does that mean?

If you said "fulfilled the scriptures" or "fulfilled the prophecies" we could have a conversation about this. I don't know what "fulfilled the law" means. :)

[ComerPerro]

46. So, we just follow the parts of the Bible that we like?

[Bluerthanblue]

48. OH Yeah, and even

if 'we' say that the bible is the LAST word for everyone, and contains no inconsistencies or mistakes, we'll bend, twist, 'interpret' and 'divine' the 'word' to suit our own agendas.

Personally I'm far more comfortable, and able to accept that the bible isn't garbage, but it isn't a 'perfect' and 'perfectly true' account/text, either.

Black and white thinking condemns us to a very narrow and uninteresting life.
IMO

[ComerPerro]

49. Leviticus is especially relevant

because many fundies pull thier anti-gay rhetoric right out of there, but very willingly shun other passages in there as being "not relevant" or "outdated".


Personally, I am suprised that any part of the literal word of God could be irrelevant or outdated...

[Bluerthanblue]

51. me too- that is

why I can't believe the bible is that-

Contradiction after contradiction- prejudice that suits the anger or need.

Cruelty beyond words, from the one who supposedly cannot abide even BEING in the presence of evil- and the creator of all that is, which if i'm not totally brain dead, would mean that god created something that he can't even be in the presence of?????

It is all about fear, power and control- When you pull the love, mercy, grace, tolerance, patience, humility, self-sacrifice out, and present those as qualities of a "God of love"- you get bombarded with terrified, outraged, angry replies.

But, we are humans. And sometimes we are neither kind, or self-controlled.
And yet, that does not change the fact that we are loved. That is the bottom line- unconditional love doesn't have a 'to do list' attached, or else it is no longer 'un' conditional.

[ComerPerro]

52. Kissing Hank's Ass

one of my favorite takes on the way people practice religion:

http://www.jhuger.com/kisshank.php


And, actually, looks like someone made a video out of it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDp7pkEcJVQ

[davidwparker]

12. http://biblegateway.com

[WilliamPitt]

13. This should help

From the West Wing, when Bartlet does a verbal take-down of a Dr. Laura clone.

===

BARTLET
I like your show. I like how you call homosexuality an abomination.

JENNA JACOBS
I don't say homosexuality is an abomination, Mr. President. The Bible does.

BARTLET
Yes, it does. Leviticus.

JENNA JACOBS
18:22

BARTLET
Chapter and verse. I wanted to ask you a couple of questions while I had you here. I'm interested in selling my youngest daughter into slavery as sanctioned in Exodus 21 - 7 . She's a Georgetown sophomore, speaks fluent Italian, and always clears the table when it was her turn. What would a good price for her be?

While thinking about that, can I ask another? My Chief of Staff, Leo McGarry, insists on working on the Sabbath, Exodus 35 - 2 , clearly says he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself or is it okay to call the police?

Here's one that's really important, 'cause we've got a lot of sports fans in this town. Touching the skin of a dead pig makes us unclean, Leviticus 11 - 7 . If they promise to wear gloves, can the Washington Redskins still play football? Can Notre Dame? Can West Point? Does the whole town really have to be together to stone my brother, John, for planting different crops side by side? Can I burn
my mother in a small family gathering for wearing garments made from two different threads?

Think about those questions, would you? One last thing, while you may be mistaking this for your monthly meeting of the Ignorant Tightass Club, in this building, when the President stands, nobody sits.

[zeemike]

14. It won't do much good...They have a get out of jail free card

They long ago cooked up a little thing called "Grace" which they claim Jesus gave them that allows them to do just about anything they want to do as long as it is gods word (that translates to what ever the preacher tells them)

[ryanus]

15. Note that this won't affect the Christians

Jews maybe, but not Christians. They believe that the laws you mention are part of the Mosaic Law which was fulfilled when Christ came and are not longer in force. So Christians technically have never followed those laws.

[Roon]

18. I ask you

No one follows the old testament anymore?

[ryanus]

27. Some people do

But I don't think you've got a good grasp of what the Christian's claim. The "Old Testament" is the Jewish Bible (mostly, we'll keep it simple). The strange laws in Leviticus are the laws that Jews and Christians claim that Jehovah gave to the Israelits as they were going to the Promised Land. The date that these laws were received is definitely no later than 1000 B.C. Some laws were personal, some civil, some ritualistic.

According to the Old Testament, the laws in Leviticus were not the first set of laws given to the Israelites when they were wandering in the wilderness. Moses descended from the mount with one set of laws, saw the pagan worship among the people, and he smashed the first set of laws. Then he went back up and got another set of laws that were much more restrictive, which accodring to Paul in the New Testament, needed to be given to the Israelites to teach them how to behave. Christians claim that when Christ came to the earth, he fulfilled the law in the sense that the Israelites no longer were required to live the old laws. Some laws were no longer required (like circumcision as discussed by the apostles in the New Testament, as well as sacrafices, etc.), but some remain in effect basically forever, like the Ten Commandments.

Christians and even many Jews do not follow the laws in Leviticus but not necessarily because they think the laws were flawed. Remember that these laws are at least 3000 years old, before hygiene, without great farming technology, and given to a people wandering in the desert trying to remain a coherent group. This is way before the Greeks, Romans, and practically anyone else that could even write anything resembling literature. Solon the lawgiver wasn't to come for hundreds of years. Nevertheless, many Christians and Jews still study the laws because they claim there is wisdom in those old laws, given the historical context.

So you won't make any progress trying to convince Christians that they have strange old laws in their book, because they don't claim to follow them.

[Roon]

33. Nice post

Thanks

[CJCRANE]

44. Many fundamentalist christians

do seem to agree with some of the laws, particularly about homosexuality, adultery, sex before marriage etc.

They also seem to relish and support the idea of the wrathful God which predominates in parts of the old Testament.

This is why it seems to me that fundamentalist christians, jews and muslims do pretty much follow the same God.

[WePurrsevere]

21. You might be better off fighting them with the New Testament. Even...

limiting it to what Jesus taught in the Gospels you can call them easily on their hypocrisy if they own anything, are married, don't take the coat off their back and give it to the homeless person on the street, try not to taxes, don't walk away from unbelievers, etc.

[Broadslidin]

22. "I went down into the valley of nuts to see the fruits of the valley"

:crazy: Song of Songs 6:11

[Horse with no Name]

23. How about holding them to this:

The Beatitudes

1And seeing the multitudes, He went up on a mountain, and when He was seated His disciples came to Him. 2Then He opened His mouth and taught them, saying:


3"Blessed are the poor in spirit,
For theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4Blessed are those who mourn,
For they shall be comforted.
5Blessed are the meek,
For they shall inherit the earth.

6Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
For they shall be filled.
7Blessed are the merciful,
For they shall obtain mercy.
8Blessed are the pure in heart,
For they shall see God.
9Blessed are the peacemakers,
For they shall be called sons of God.
10Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness' sake,
For theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Love Your Enemies
43 "You have heard that it was said, "You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.'
44But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so? 48Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.

The Model Prayer
5"And when you pray, you shall not be like the hypocrites. For they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward. 6But you, when you pray, go into your room, and when you have shut your door, pray to your Father who is in the secret place; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly. 7And when you pray, do not use vain repetitions as the heathen do. For they think that they will be heard for their many words.
8"Therefore do not be like them. For your Father knows the things you have need of before you ask Him. 9In this manner, therefore, pray:


Our Father in heaven,
Hallowed be Your name.
10Your kingdom come.
Your will be done
On earth as it is in heaven.
11Give us this day our daily bread.
12And forgive us our debts,
As we forgive our debtors.
13And do not lead us into temptation,
But deliver us from the evil one.
For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.


Do Not Judge
1 "Judge not, that you be not judged. 2For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you. 3And why do you look at the speck in your brother's eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye?
4Or how can you say to your brother, "Let me remove the speck from your eye'; and look, a plank is in your own eye? 5Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.
6"Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces.

[qwertyMike]

24. 2nd Kings 18:27

27: But the Rab'shakeh said to them, "Has my master sent me to speak these words to your master and to you, and not to the men sitting on the wall, who are doomed with you to eat their own dung and to drink their own urine?"

But I'm not sure if it's the Nooo Testament

It was an old High School 'naughty' thing we did

[oldboy101]

25. Jesus came to fulfill the law, not to abolish it.

Some have a mistaken idea about TRUE Christians so permit me to quote Jesus' own words as found in Matthew 5:17-19:

"Think not that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets. I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law until all is accomplished.

Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

[Sapere aude]

28. I think the Bible says to love your neighbor. Let's hold to that.

[IamyourTVandIownyou]

29. Matthew 5 :: 9

Blessed are the peacemakers for they will called the children of God

[StoryTeller]

30. I would advise against this argument...

A lot of fundies aren't knowledgeable enough to refute it with anything other than what some of our DU'ers have already stated, "Jesus fulfilled the law, Christians aren't under the law, etc." but eventually you are going to run into someone with enough of a Bible background who will make you look awfully ignorant and foolish for using this argument.

Truth is, it's a weak, weak argument because it shows how little the arguer understands about Mosaic law or Hebraic history. The Levitical laws served different purposes. Some, like the 10 Commandments, were moral laws--don't murder, don't steal your neighbor's spouse, etc.

Others were ritual purity laws--and that's where the bans on sex during a woman's period, wearing two kinds of cloth, etc. come in. Some of those laws had practical purposes--for example, the one about menstruating women allowed women a break from their husbands' attentions. In that culture at that time, this was a huge boost for women, who otherwise had few rights. The ban on eating meat with blood in it was at least partly for sanitation purposes, as well as reminding the people that they were to behave differently from the surrounding nations that didn't believe in the Hebrew God.

Other of these ritual purity laws served as a symbolic reminder to the people of their position before God and served as a teaching. Thus the ban on wearing two kinds of fabric at once. You have to remember that this culture and time period learned and thought in stories and pictures.

By the time of Christ, a lot of these purity rituals had taken on the importance of moral imperatives, but that was not always the case. And the early Christian church, following on the heels of Jesus' teachings, differentiated through a long dialogue (some of which is recorded in the New Testament) between these two different aspects of Mosaic law. The outcome was that they released Gentiles from following the laws regarding ritual purity, but expected that laws regarding morality still should be followed.

So when you use the "West Wing" line of argument with a fundie, they may or may not be able to articulate a rebuttal. But most of them know on some level that there's a logical reason why they aren't expected to follow every aspect of the law.

This argument has bothered me for a long time because it makes the liberals who use it look stupid and uninformed. If you want help forming better arguments based on solid evangelical theology that will be hard for your fundie friends (or enemies) to refute, please PM me. I'm happy to help.

[ryanus]

31. I generally agree with this

I would highly recommend these courses from the Teaching Company:

Introduction to Judaism
http://www.teach12.com/ttc/assets/coursedescriptions/6423.asp?id=6423&d=Introduction+to+Judaism&pc=Religion

Old Testament
http://www.teach12.com/ttcx/coursedesclong2.aspx?cid=653&id=653&d=Old+Testament&pc=Religion

God and Mankind: Comparative Religions
http://www.teach12.com/ttcx/coursedesclong2.aspx?cid=616&id=616&d=God+and+Mankind%3A+Comparative+Religions&pc=Religion

Great World Religions: Christianity
http://www.teach12.com/ttc/assets/coursedescriptions/6101.asp?id=6101&d=Great+World+Religions%3A+Christianity&pc=Religion

Only buy them when they are on sale. The local library might have some, too.

I think studying religions, escpecially major ones todays, is critical to understanding how people think they way they do. I think the author of this thread may be doing exactly what he\she accuses the fundies of doing: trying to argue about claims the religious adherents are not even making.

[Roon]

34. The whole "It's different now" doesn't wash with me..it just doesn;t.

[Bluerthanblue]

55. ask the next male fundie

who is pounding thier bible if they are circumcised.
If they are, then you can point to how ticked off Paul got when people continued to be circumcised-****
If they aren't you can cite the old testament that said God says ANYONE who loves-follows me will be circumcised, and that rule is FOREVER-*

Also ask why the OT says "FEAR GOD!"** "The fear of God is the begining of understanding"-
and the NT says "Perfect love casts out fear"***

It just doesn't fit together like the jigsaw puzzle people would like to sell you- the pieces might be able to be pounded in, but they don't really fit, and the picture will never come together when you jam things into place that don't belong there.



****"It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm and do not let yourselves be burdened again by the yoke of slavery.

Mark my words! I, Paul tell you that if you let yourself be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace."


* God speaking to Abram-7 "I will continue this everlasting covenant between us, generation after generation. It will continue between me and your offspring* forever. And I will always be your God and the God of your descendants after you. 8 Yes, I will give all this land of Canaan to you and to your offspring forever. And I will be their God.

**6:13 Fear the Lord your God, serve him only and take your oaths in his name.

*** There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear has punishment. He who fears is not made perfect in love.

[Bluerthanblue]

50. If you live "by the law" you die

by the law-

No one could save 'themselves'- by obeying the law. Not in OT standards- and not in NT standards.

Remember the Pharasees (EXPERTS in 'THE LAW') rebuked Jesus himself, and applied laws to him that they said he broke- :

working on the sabbath
consorting with lowlife and unclean people
questioning the 'experts'
NOT murdering a woman caught in the act of adultery
claiming to be "of" or from God the father
not following ritual cleansing
preaching love, forgiveness, humility and charity

And the only people Jesus ever got flaming furious with, or demonstrated violence towards, were those who tied millstones around other peoples necks, believed themselves to be wise/righteous/good while condemning others, and making money by exploiting peoples desire to 'be good'.

Here is the passage most christIANS today can't deny or avoid-

"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

[ThomWV]

36. As A Non-Christian This One Still Ranks High On My List (Proverbs 6-16)

'These six things the Lord hates, yes, seven are an abomination to Him: a proud look, a lying tongue, hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked plans, feet that are swift in running to evil, a false witness who speaks lies, and one who sows discord among brethren" (Proverbs 6:16-19)'

[Tanked]

37. Bible - Virgin Burnt Sacrifice

You don't hear sermons on burning your daughter as a virgin sacrifice in the Bible.

Judges Chapter 11

30 And Jephthah vowed a vow unto the LORD, and said, If thou shalt without fail deliver the children of Ammon into mine hands,
31 Then it shall be, that whatsoever cometh forth of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return in peace from the children of Ammon, shall surely be the LORD’S, and I will offer it up for a burnt offering.
32 So Jephthah passed over unto the children of Ammon to fight against them; and the LORD delivered them into his hands.
33 And he smote them from Aroer, even till thou come to Minnith, even twenty cities, and unto the plain of the vineyards, with a very great slaughter. Thus the children of Ammon were subdued before the children of Israel.
34 And Jephthah came to Mizpeh unto his house, and, behold, his daughter came out to meet him with timbrels and with dances: and she was his only child; beside her he had neither son nor daughter.
35 And it came to pass, when he saw her, that he rent his clothes, and said, Alas, my daughter! thou hast brought me very low, and thou art one of them that trouble me: for I have opened my mouth unto the LORD, and I cannot go back.
36 And she said unto him, My father, if thou hast opened thy mouth unto the LORD, do to me according to that which hath proceeded out of thy mouth; forasmuch as the LORD hath taken vengeance for thee of thine enemies, even of the children of Ammon.
37 And she said unto her father, Let this thing be done for me: let me alone two months, that I may go up and down upon the mountains, and bewail my virginity, I and my fellows.
38 And he said, Go. And he sent her away for two months: and she went with her companions, and bewailed her virginity upon the mountains.
39 And it came to pass at the end of two months, that she returned unto her father, who did with her according to his vow which he had vowed: and she knew no man. And it was a custom in Israel,
40 That the daughters of Israel went yearly to lament the daughter of Jephthah the Gileadite four days in a year

[Tanked]

39. Other quotes

Slavery quotes were used to justify slavery in US. The
adultery quotes makes me wonder when fundamentalist preachers
will ask all remarried/divorced in the congregation to come
forward for stoning.

[Lev 25:44] As for your male and female slaves whom you may
have: you may buy male and female slaves from among the
nations that are round about you.
[Lev 25:45] You may also buy from among the strangers who
sojourn with you and their families that are with you, who
have been born in your land; and they may be your property.
[Lev 25:46] You may bequeath them to your sons after you, to
inherit as a possession for ever; you may make slaves of them,
but over your brethren the people of Israel you shall not
rule, one over another, with harshness.

[Lev 19:20.12] "If a man lies carnally with a woman who
is a slave, betrothed to another man and not yet ransomed or
given her freedom, an inquiry shall be held. They shall not be
put to death, because she was not free;

[Exod 21:20.6] "When a man strikes his slave, male or
female, with a rod and the slave dies under his hand, he shall
be punished.
[Exod 21:21.4] But if the slave survives a day or two, he is
not to be punished; for the slave is his money.
[Exod 21:26.9] "When a man strikes the eye of his slave,
male or female, and destroys it, he shall let the slave go
free for the eye's sake.
[Exod 21:27.9] If he knocks out the tooth of his slave, male
or female, he shall let the slave go free for the tooth's
sake.
[Exod 21:32.6] If the ox gores a slave, male or female, the
owner shall give to their master thirty shekels of silver, and
the ox shall be stoned.

[Lev 20:10.5] "If a man commits adultery with the wife of
his neighbor, both the adulterer and the adulteress shall be
put to death.
[Mat 5:32.30] But I say to you that every one who divorces his
wife, except on the ground of unchastity, makes her an
adulteress; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits
adultery.


[Mark 10:9] What therefore God has joined together, let not
man put asunder."
[Mark 10:10] And in the house the disciples asked him again
about this matter.
[Mark 10:11.14] And he said to them, "Whoever divorces
his wife and marries another, commits adultery against her;
[Mark 10:12] and if she divorces her husband and marries
another, she commits adultery."
[Mark 10:13] And they were bringing children to him, that he
might touch them; and the disciples rebuked them.
Luke 16:18.11] "Every one who divorces his wife and
marries another commits adultery, and he who marries a woman
divorced from her husband commits adultery.

[CJCRANE]

43. It's a good point

because the Muslim God is just a continuation of the Biblical God.

If you remember in the old Testament God casts Adam and Eve out of the Eden for seeking knowledge, floods the whole word when he's not happy how humanity turned out, vaporises a couple of decadent cities later on, pitches tribes against each other etc etc.

It's disingenuous for Christians to say the old Testament God is not their God when the whole point about Christianity is tying in the Judaic prophecies from the old testament into backing up the validity of the Messiah.

But the whole point of this powerful and wrathful god is to make people humble and see themselves as just a small part of the cosmos and try and live within the bounds of their society.

I don't buy it myself (I don't need heaven and hell to motivate my actions) but it's the basis of the Abrahamic religions and I respect the cultures and people it has created.

[cgrindley]

53. Baptist ministers typically wear cotton poly blends

God hates cheap fabric. They should totally know better. They'll end up in that circle where Dante put the used car dealers.

[galloglas]

56. Before you judge someone a bigot

you should see what they had to say!

Suggest you retry. Kneejerk reactions, and judgments, often cost one valued allies.

I sent you an epost, rather than posting here, for your benefit, not mine.

[TrogL]

57. Strong's Greek Concordance