This shit between the Pope & Muslims is just too ridiculous

[mtnsnake]

First you got the Pope reading some dumb ancient crap that denigrates Muslims in some respect and implies that they're a violent people. How stupid was that. Then you've got some Muslim extremists wailing how they're not violent like what the Pope claims...as they throw their molotov cocktails at churches and kill an Italian nun in Somalia. No, you're not violent!

Ya know what I think? I think all the religious fanatics of the world...whether it be Muslim extremists, far-out Catholic wackos, wild-eyed blabbering American evangelicals (Hallelujah!), or ANY religious freak who thinks they can shove their stuff down everyone's throats...I think they should all get their fanatical religious asses together in some remote corner of the world and do whatever it is they want to do to each other AND LEAVE THE REST OF US THE FUCK ALONE TO LIVE OUT OUR LIVES IN RELATIVE PEACE AND HARMONY!

[fooj]

1. Most excellent rant!

:applause:

For what it's worth...I think so, too.

[razors edge]

2. as long as they don't fuck up the lawn in the process.

[maxsolomon]

3. you came very close to insulting peaceful muslims

not allowed on DU! so, :popcorn:

HEY BONEHEADS: ITS THE SAME GOD.

signed, a peaceful post-catholic secular humanist who is currently filled with exasperation bordering on rage at monotheism.

[mtnsnake]

5. I was very careful NOT to do that. Most muslims are peace loving people

It's the fanatical religious nuts that ruin it for EVERYONE, and that also includes fanatical Catholics as well as so many crazed evangelicals who would just LOVE to ram their religious beliefs down all our throats at whatever cost in human life it takes to get the job done. Like I said, they should simply get together in some remote isolated wasteland on this planet and settle it between THEM and leave the rest of us the heck out of it.

I'm Catholic myself (not a practicing one), btw, and I mean no offense to any of the ones who practice their faith in private and keep it there, and that goes for any religion.

[JVS]

17. Now you've insulted me: It is NOT the same God

Seriously. Ok, not that seriously. I'm not insulted, but still it is not the same God.

It's all clearly spelled out here:

"Quicumque vult salvus esse, ante omnia opus est, ut teneat catholicam fidem:
Quam nisi quisque integram inviolatamque servaverit, absque dubio in aeternam peribit.
Fides autem catholica haec est: ut unum Deum in Trinitate, et Trinitatem in unitate veneremur.
Neque confundentes personas, neque substantiam seperantes.
Alia est enim persona Patris alia Filii, alia Spiritus Sancti:
Sed Patris, et Fili, et Spiritus Sancti una est divinitas, aequalis gloria, coeterna maiestas.
Qualis Pater, talis Filius, talis Spiritus Sanctus. Increatus Pater, increatus Filius, increatus Spiritus Sanctus.
Immensus Pater, immensus Filius, immensus Spiritus Sanctus.
Aeternus Pater, aeternus Filius, aeternus Spiritus Sanctus.
Et tamen non tres aeterni, sed unus aeternus.
Sicut non tres increati, nec tres immensi, sed unus increatus, et unus immensus.
Similiter omnipotens Pater, omnipotens Filius, omnipotens Spiritus Sanctus.
Et tamen non tres omnipotentes, sed unus omnipotens.
Ita Deus Pater, Deus Filius, Deus Spiritus Sanctus.
Et tamen non tres dii, sed unus est Deus.
Ita Dominus Pater, Dominus Filius, Dominus Spiritus Sanctus.
Et tamen non tres Domini, sed unus est Dominus.
Quia, sicut singillatim unamquamque personam Deum ac Dominum confiteri christiana veritate compelimur: ita tres Deos aut Dominos dicere catholica religione prohibemur.
Pater a nullo est factus: nec creatus, nec genitus.
Filius a Patre solo est: non factus, nec creatus, sed genitus.
Spiritus Sanctus a Patre et Filio: non factus, nec creatus, nec genitus, sed procedens.
Unus ergo Pater, non tres Patres: unus Filius, non tres Filii: unus Spiritus Sanctus, non tres Spiritus Sancti.
Et in hac Trinitate nihil prius aut posterius, nihil maius aut minus: sed totae tres personae coaeternae sibi sunt et coaequales.
Ita ut per omnia, sicut iam supra dictum est, et unitas in Trinitate, et Trinitas in unitate veneranda sit.
Qui vult ergo salvus esse, ita de Trinitate sentiat.
Sed necessarium est ad aeternam salutem, ut incarnationem quoque Domini nostri Iesu Christi fideliter credat.
Est ergo fides recta ut credamus et confiteamur, quia Dominus noster Iesus Christus, Dei Filius, Deus et homo est.
Deus est ex substantia Patris ante saecula genitus: et homo est ex substantia matris in saeculo natus.
Perfectus Deus, perfectus homo: ex anima rationali et humana carne subsistens.
Aequalis Patri secundum divinitatem: minor Patre secundum humanitatem.
Qui licet Deus sit et homo, non duo tamen, sed unus est Christus.
Unus autem non conversione divinitatis in carnem, sed assumptione humanitatis in Deum.
Unus omnino, non confusione substantiae, sed unitate personae.
Nam sicut anima rationalis et caro unus est homo: ita Deus et homo unus est Christus.
Qui passus est pro salute nostra: descendit ad inferos: tertia die resurrexit a mortuis.
Ascendit ad caelos, sedet ad dexteram Dei Patris omnipotentis: inde venturus est iudicare vivos et mortuos.
Ad cuius adventum omnes homines resurgere habent cum corporibus suis: et reddituri sunt de factis propriis rationem.
Et qui bona egerunt, ibunt in vitam aeternam: qui vero mala, in ignem aeternum.
Haec est fides catholica, quam nisi quisque fideliter firmiterque crediderit, salvus esse non poterit. Amen."

[Bill McBlueState]

18. I don't know what all that means, but

yeah, I don't get this "they're the same god" thing. One has a son; the other doesn't.

[JVS]

19. Maybe Maury will show up and give us some "shocking paternity...

test results" ;-)

[elehhhhna]

22. Jesus is a Prophet of Islam.

[Bill McBlueState]

30. exactly.

In Islam, Jesus is a prophet, and it's blasphemy to suggest that God has a son. In Christianity, Jesus is actually the son of God. The same God cannot both have a son and not have a son.

[elehhhhna]

51. IIRC Christianity says we're ALL sons & daughters of God...?

[CJCRANE]

45. Um, the muslims are just

following on from the Old Testament God. It's the same God. It's just that they dispute Jesus' paternity.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

53. We can go further on these lines.

One doesn't like representations of people in churches; the other doesn't mind.

[CarlVK]

20. Yes it is the same God.

The common ancestor to all JudeoChristian faiths (Judaism, Islam and Christianity) is Abraham.

edit: changed "link" to "ancestor"

[JVS]

24. No. There is overlap in the stories, but neither the Jewish nor Muslim...

God is the God defined by the trinitarian formulation essential to Christianity.

The Muslim and Jewish Gods might be more similar, but there is still differences in what their alleged actions are, and if beings (mythical or not) are indeed the sum of their actions, then these are two distinct.

[CarlVK]

25. Baloney. Abraham is the common ancestor and his God

did not magically change from one tradition to another.

[JVS]

26. The traditions created the Gods, each one made their own God,

[Leopolds Ghost]

64. You don't get to tell people who believe in God what they think. n/t

[JVS]

65. Tell that to post #3 who said that they were all the same God.

[struggle4progress]

37. The trinitarian formulation is based on the visitation to Abraham:

"... at the Mamre as he sat at the opening of his tent in the heat of midday, he lifted up his eyes, and Behold! Three strangers! ..."

[trackfan]

36. Some translation

"Quicumque vult salvus esse, ante omnia opus est, ut teneat catholicam fidem:
Whosoever wishes to be saved should, before anything else, hold the catholic faith

Quam nisi quisque integram inviolatamque servaverit, absque dubio in aeternam peribit.
Unless he does so wholly there is no doubt he will perish in eternity.

Fides autem catholica haec est: ut unum Deum in Trinitate, et Trinitatem in unitate veneremur.
This is the catholic fatih: We worship one God in a Trinity, and a Trinity in a Unity -

Neque confundentes personas, neque substantiam seperantes.
neither confusing the persons nor separating (them) in substance.

Alia est enim persona Patris alia Filii, alia Spiritus Sancti:
The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are separate persons.

Sed Patris, et Fili, et Spiritus Sancti una est divinitas, aequalis gloria, coeterna maiestas.
But the Father, Son and Holy Spirit share one divinity, equal glory and coeternal majesty.

Qualis Pater, talis Filius, talis Spiritus Sanctus. Increatus Pater, increatus Filius, increatus
The Father is the same as the Son who is the same as the Holy Spirit.

Spiritus Sanctus.
None of the three was created.

Immensus Pater, immensus Filius, immensus Spiritus Sanctus.
All are immense.

Aeternus Pater, aeternus Filius, aeternus Spiritus Sanctus.
All are eternal.


Et tamen non tres aeterni, sed unus aeternus.
Nevertheless not three eternities, but one eternity.

Sicut non tres increati, nec tres immensi, sed unus increatus, et unus immensus.
Likwise, not three uncreated and immense, but one uncreated and immense.

Similiter omnipotens Pater, omnipotens Filius, omnipotens Spiritus Sanctus.
All are equally omnipotent.

Et tamen non tres omnipotentes, sed unus omnipotens.
Nevertheless not three omnipotent etc.

Ita Deus Pater, Deus Filius, Deus Spiritus Sanctus.
Thus God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.

Et tamen non tres dii, sed unus est Deus.
Nevertheless not three gods etc.

Ita Dominus Pater, Dominus Filius, Dominus Spiritus Sanctus.
Thus Lord etc.

Et tamen non tres Domini, sed unus est Dominus.
Nevertheless etc.

Quia, sicut singillatim unamquamque personam Deum ac Dominum confiteri christiana veritate
compelimur: ita tres Deos aut Dominos dicere catholica religione prohibemur.
(we confess individually three persons but not three Gods)

Pater a nullo est factus: nec creatus, nec genitus.
Father not made nor created nor born.

Filius a Patre solo est: non factus, nec creatus, sed genitus.
Son etc.
Spiritus Sanctus a Patre et Filio: non factus, nec creatus, nec genitus, sed procedens.
Holy spirit etc... but proceeding

Unus ergo Pater, non tres Patres: unus Filius, non tres Filii: unus Spiritus Sanctus, non tres Spiritus Sancti.
1dadnot3 1sonnot3 1spiritnot3

Et in hac Trinitate nihil prius aut posterius, nihil maius aut minus: sed totae tres personae coaeternae sibi sunt et coaequales.
In this Trinity nothing before or after; greater or lesser - all 3 coeternal and equal


Ita ut per omnia, sicut iam supra dictum est, et unitas in Trinitate, et Trinitas in unitate veneranda sit.
(all to be venerated)


Qui vult ergo salvus esse, ita de Trinitate sentiat.
(If you wanna be saved, you'd better think this)

Sed necessarium est ad aeternam salutem, ut incarnationem quoque Domini nostri Iesu Christi fideliter credat.
(Necessary for salvation that you believe in the incarnation of Jesus)

Est ergo fides recta ut credamus et confiteamur, quia Dominus noster Iesus Christus, Dei Filius, Deus et homo est.

I'm tired now- you get the point.


Deus est ex substantia Patris ante saecula genitus: et homo est ex substantia matris in saeculo natus.
Perfectus Deus, perfectus homo: ex anima rationali et humana carne subsistens.
Aequalis Patri secundum divinitatem: minor Patre secundum humanitatem.
Qui licet Deus sit et homo, non duo tamen, sed unus est Christus.
Unus autem non conversione divinitatis in carnem, sed assumptione humanitatis in Deum.
Unus omnino, non confusione substantiae, sed unitate personae.
Nam sicut anima rationalis et caro unus est homo: ita Deus et homo unus est Christus.
Qui passus est pro salute nostra: descendit ad inferos: tertia die resurrexit a mortuis.
Ascendit ad caelos, sedet ad dexteram Dei Patris omnipotentis: inde venturus est iudicare vivos et mortuos.
Ad cuius adventum omnes homines resurgere habent cum corporibus suis: et reddituri sunt de factis propriis rationem.
Et qui bona egerunt, ibunt in vitam aeternam: qui vero mala, in ignem aeternum.
Haec est fides catholica, quam nisi quisque fideliter firmiterque crediderit, salvus esse non poterit. Amen."
"Above us there is nothing above but the stars above"-Zlad "Sadness is for poor people"- Err "If your butt is itchy, do not stop to

[maxsolomon]

62. latin doesn't change the facts: historically its still the same god

the only difference is that christianity insists that jesus & the holy spirit, whatever that is, is an inseparable component of that same god, whose name is alternately Yahweh, Jehovah, Allah, God.

between the Muslim Allah & the Jewish Yahweh, there is no difference.

the insistence on the the unity of the trinity, that there is no difference between the nature of Jesus & God, was a matter of some debate in the early church. the Council of Nicea, banishment of Gnostic texts & sects, burial of scrolls in the desert, etc.

and, to many many christians, that unity of Jesus with God is merely an academic distinction that they cannot grasp & means little in their daily lives - they think God is a separate being sitting on a throne like in the Sistine Chapel, and that Jesus was made with his god-sperm.

[Imagevision]

32. In the middle-east, are peaceful muslems the majority?

Doesn't look that way on the tube

[CJCRANE]

47. Well America and Americans

don't look peaceful if you watch al-Jazeera and watch TV cop shows.

The reality of the world and what we see in the media are two different things.

Take the killing of the nun in Somalia. That's sad but that's one out of six billion people in the world.

Or take John Mark Karr - do you think when he was in the headlines that that was really the most important thing going on in the world? Or the bird flu epidemic (that never happened)? The media's role is to by turns titillate and terrify us. Don't buy into it. Just walk out into your street and hopefully you'll see that life goes on uneventfully for most people. Whether that street's in your city or Cairo, or Marrakesh or Zanzibar or Timbuktu etc.

[etherealtruth]

48. My guess is that peaceful people ...

...just trying to live "normal" productive lives ... doesn't "sell" on the tube.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

61. Is that how you judge people?

Because using that logic, most Americans are inbred, drunk, nepotistic, creationist clowns.

Actually, there's a point to be made...

No. Most people in the middle east are peace loving muslems (sic).

[NOLADEM]

4. It is simply NUTS to live your life as if a fairy tale is real

[bonito]

6. If we were ever visited by intelligent extraterrestrials

once they found out we think God talks to us, they would book.

[smirkymonkey]

7. I'm all for it - Let's move them all to Texas for a big Lone Star

State Showdown.

[tridim]

8. Religion is ridiculous.

IMO of course.

[malaise]

27. That's an understatement n/t

[bdamomma]

57. or too much religion can make a person stupid

and apparently there are alot of stupid people out there.

where are the days when a person could just practice their own faith without all this invoking of another one's religion down your throat!!!!!!!!!!!

[durrrty libby]

63. What is even more ridiculous, is a bunch of people

arguing over which fairy tale is more authentic

:freak:

[Solo_in_MD]

9. I suggest you read the full statement

and rethink your rant.

The NYT editorial today was also instructive http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/19/opinion/19allen.html

[mtnsnake]

11. My rant would be the same regardless

Whether the pope said this or that doesn't change the way I feel about ALL the religious extremists of the world. What the extreme fanatics routinely do in the name of religion is utterly ri-dic-u-lous.

[muriel_volestrangler]

44. That editorial is really stupid

The uproar in the Muslim world over the comments is thus to some extent a case of “German professor meets sound-bite culture,” with a phrase from a tightly wrapped academic argument shot into global circulation, provoking an unintended firestorm.

Also "German professor too dumb to be a religious leader". If he wasn't trying to insult Islam, then why use the "evil and inhuman" quote at all? It didn't fit in with the rest of his speech. We can only conclude it was exactly the message he wanted to send. A much better editorial, from today's Guardian:

An example from the 1980s. At a 1983 Conservative rally, the comedian Kenny Everett called out, "Let's bomb Russia!" A year later, a microphone caught Ronald Reagan ad-libbing a mock radio address: "My fellow Americans, I'm pleased to tell you today that I've signed legislation that will outlaw Russia for ever. We begin bombing in five minutes." Both had an equal right to make the joke. But it was rather less wise for the leader of a cold war superpower.

Pope Benedict is in the Reagan category. Of course he has the right to quote whomever he chooses, but there is now a significance to his words that did not apply when he was a humble scholar. This is what makes the Pope's defenders so disingenuous when they insist that he was merely engaged in a "scholarly consideration of the relationship between reason and faith". He is not a lecturer at divinity school. He is the head of a global institution with more than a billion followers. So he has to think carefully about the sources he cites. When he digs out a 700-year-old sentence that could not be more damning of Islam - "Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached" - he has to know there will be consequences.

If he did not fully agree with the statement by the Byzantine emperor Manuel II Paleologos, he should have put some distance between himself and it. But read the lecture and the only hint of papal disavowal is a description of Manuel's "startling brusqueness". Which means the Pope was either inept, failing to disown Manuel's sentiment effectively, or that he in fact agreed with it and wanted to say so. Again, that is his right - but he should have known, given who he is, that it would have the most calamitous results.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,,1876391,00.html

It appears that Benedict, like Reagn and Bush, just shouldn't be allowed to write his own speeches.

"The speech was seen by some people in the secretariat of state and they were a bit shocked by the strength of it but decided that it was what the Pope wanted to say," said Fr Daniel Madigan, the director for the study of Religions and Cultures at the Pontifical Gregorian University in Rome.

He added that the Pope was "clearly writing things himself" since his speech contained elementary errors about Islam.

"He is not really au fait with the material. He says the second Surah was handed to Mohammed when he did not have political power but almost every Muslim scholar believes it was handed to him later, in Medina, when he did have political power.

"The second mistake is one he makes continually. He spells Ibn Hazm with an N at the end. It is the kind of thing I see in students' writing," he said.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/09/19/wpope119.xml

[BootinUp]

10. In a world where so called leaders ramp up hate rhetoric

everyday, this is the kind of shit that results!

In a world where the media never attempts to show the other guys side, instead they ridicule the other side, this is the kind of shit that results!

We need real leadership to reduce the fear and rhetoric and make people come together to solve problems again.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

12. I think you have the basis for the next season of 'Survivor' right there

:popcorn:

[Lost-in-FL]

14. Oh no you didn't

:popcorn:

[Horse with no Name]

13. Anything EXTREME or RADICAL is never good

and I totally agree with you.
However, just like many of these same people RESENT Rosie calling out radical Christians--they think nothing about lumping all Muslims into one group, never realizing they are doing to them EXACTLY what they get pissed off about.

[ForeverWinter]

15. THANK YOU

[Canuckistanian]

16. They should have a death cage match and be done with it

Two men enter. One man leave.

Losers apologize, everyone goes home. Problem solved.

Just leave me a message in my inbox where to pick up my Nobel Peace Prize.

:argh:

on edit: K&R!

[Hoosier Dem]

21. Does anyone else find this whole thing surreal...

An ancient Pope who used to be a Nazi quotes some text from the Middle Ages that slams islam for unleashing violence on the world. (Unlike Pope bennie's fellow nazis, who werre appalled by violence)
:sarcasm:

In response, certain Muslims decide to protest the Pope's calling their religion violent by staging riots and killing a nun.

:wtf:

[elehhhhna]

23. Ratzi's a pretty sucky Pope. There.

I said it.

[FourScore]

28. AMEN!

[sendero]

29. You nailed it..

... wherever there is religion, there is trouble. I'll pass, thanks.

[bdamomma]

59. definitely this was one of things we or should I say I was taught

not to talk about religion, politics or a person's age, and to respect how other people practice their faith. I guess that doesn't exist no more.

[Clarkie1]

31. Arguing over their imaginary friends. Quite tiresome. nt

[Imagevision]

33. Pope should tell em, I said what I said, if you're too stupid to get it?

buzz-off -- buzz-off bigtime!

[struggle4progress]

38. Perhaps "Buzz-off!" is not the Pope's understanding of Christian love.

[Imagevision]

39. Buzz-off too much for Pope? well then I'll pray for you my friends...

[leesa]

34. But it gets the response the anti-Muslims were going for...part of the

bomb Iran October surprise work-up. The Christians really want their Crusade.

[ComerPerro]

35. Its like watching Michigan play Notre Dame this weekend

both teams suck, but its funny watching them beat the crap out of each other.

[mikeybabe125]

40. Everything that is good gets...

corrupted by humanity somewhere along the line. Just because there are religious extremists and they do crazy, stupid things in the name of their GOD, does not mean that there isn't a god out there, far from it.

Furthermore, please don't label every religious person as the aforementioned you described. Some of the most religious people I know HATE Bush, hell, I remember reading a story of a pope making a speech on just how horrible Bush is. My point is there is more to it, don't generalize all this without looking deeper into it, that is all.

[uppityperson]

41. I read your subject line and was going to rant about fundamentalist extrem

extremists, as youdid. Good rant, right on.

[aaronbees]

42. Hallelujah for this post!! .... great one .... eom

[treestar]

43. The ones who reacted violently do not "prove" the religion is violent

Why do all Muslims have to be judged by their craziest people? Why are they all responsible for killing that nun? Why does that logic apply only to them? Aren't we then responsible for killing whatever Muslim grandmothers have been caught in the crossfire over there?

[Triana]

46. My idea...

...and I've been saying this for the past couple weeks, interestingly enough:

Put the religious extremeists in an enclosed part of the world or some sort of huge arena. Give them weapons, bombs, whatever. Seal it up, and just before doing so, yell

J I H A D!!

...and let them destroy each other/themselves. AND LEAVE THE REST OF US OUT OF IT.

[KatyMan]

52. I thought two things on these postings

one, why not just leave the religious labels out of it? Comments like 'most muslims are peaceful', etc...why not say most people are peaceful. As something of a knock on from that, your al-Qaeda, abortion clinic bombing nut today was the the militant communist or fascist that brawled in the streets of Germany in the 20s (and most other places): thugs are thugs and will always be, and will always gravitate toward whatever the extreme of the society is, be it politics, religion, whatever. Brownshirts didn't don the brown shirt because of their fervent belief in National Socialism, it was because they wanted to fight and bust heads. I believe the 'militant muslim' is the same person. Religion has nothing to do with it, it's just another way of taking sides and fighting. Only now their weapons go beyond truncheons and brass knuckles...

[Ganja Ninja]

49. Lets put them all out in a great big field and arm each of them with ..

a sock full of shit and let them beat each other to death.

[NJmaverick]

50. Like in politics, it's the CONSERVATIVES that are giving

religion a bad name.

[Jacobin]

54. Check this out:

Pope Bush the Dumb

:rofl:

[toymachines]

55. Word.

Ship em out.

[Beelzebud]

56. Agreed 110%.

[upi402]

58. Religious fanatics suck n/t

[bdamomma]

60. I would like to add "extreme"

[sofa king]

66. It's like watching the Cowboys play the Giants.

I wish they could both lose.

[greiner3]

67. Tax all religious property;

Then outlaw organized religion 10 years later after the IRS has a good look into their finances and jails many, many religious leaders!

[Nimrod2005]

68. Amen.........nt

[jazzjunkysue]

69. Amen. Pass the baptismal wine. ;)

Get over yourself. You're religious. Your guy makes you feel powerful. So, of course, that pisses off other people who think their guy makes them powerful.

It's all BS, if you use religion as an excuse for ANYTHING.

You've still got to own everything you do, or neglect to do.

[HuffleClaw]

70. its mostly a MEDIA-created event

[Danger Mouse]

71. LOL....

'I am not violent! I am not violent! I will fucking kill you to prove to you how violent I am not!' Irony?
I think these Muslim Extremists would get along well with our Christian Extremists. They could compare notes.
Still, out of context or not, the pope has to realize, that as a person in as high of a position as he is, such remarks will ALWAYS be taken out of context. You're the religious leader of the entire Catholic faith. Choose your words carefully!