Turley On Countdown-We're About To Hear Bush ORDERED Americans To Torture

[kpete]

TURLEY: It has all the indications that that is exactly what is happening. The Administration for years has conspicuously attempted to get things like waterboarding approved as non-torture. Waterboarding, when you convince someone they're going to drown by drowning them. At least to the point of death. And waterboarding is defined as torture around the world.

Now obviously the Administration has not gotten that thus far. But there is a strong suspicion that we have indeed been engaging in torture. Remember, some of these people were captured when the White House had signed a memo that defined non-torture as anything short of organ failure. That they believed that as long as they didn't cause organ failure or death, they were not engaged in torture. That shocked the world.

So what has happened in the past in our name has many of us wondering. But there is a feeling - and I am one of those people that has it - that we're about to hear some accounts coming out that our President may have ordered American personnel to become torturers. And that is so serious it is almost beyond definition.


OLBERMANN: How serious would that be for the President? Are there elements of the Constitution that refer to international treaties that make an American President violating international agreements like that liable or subject to criminal action within this country, let alone internationally?

TURLEY: It is a violation of both domestic and international law. But more importantly, torture is a moral under every major religion. That you cannot fight a moral war with immoral means. And if we're ready to embrace immoral means, if that's how we're going to fight this war, then we have lost. And no one will come to our aid. We will be alone. And that's what happens when you become - in the view of many - an enemy to the rule of law. And we cannot afford that to happen.

much more at:
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2006/9/19/21757/0684

[Mojambo]

1. And in any sane world that would be game, set and match for this cabal.

[berni_mccoy]

5. What the hell is it going to take?!?!? this cabal should have been removed

years ago...

[Hamlette]

2. yeah, but Bush's poll numbers are going up because of his position

and Josh said Rove is going to bring out some 9/11 widows to say how much they want us to torture.

(Of course, that is EXACTLY why we have "the rule of law" in this country, so the widows don't decide the punishment of the terrorists....but....that seems lost on good Christians.)

[Theodora]

63. Why poll numbers are going up

I believe that people are being hoodwinked by just thinking
Bush is talking about the new "bad apples," those 14
detainees just released.  It would be easy for many to think
they deserved what they got, guilty or not!  However, the
opposition is NOT MAKING THE POINT that the proposed
legislation concerns ALL prisoners and detainees, including
the 14,000 or probably more, recently cited.  And it concerns
the Canadian held without charges for years and shipped off to
Syria, where he says he was tortured.  Bush is showing he is
tough on "members of Al Quaeda."  He does not say he
needs proof and a fair hearing, and charges first that any of
these 14,000 are "members of Al Quaeda."  All of
that is too complex for Rush Limbaugh listeners.

[smoogatz]

64. Bush's poll numbers

are only going up among Republicans--everybody else still hates him. And the reason they're going up has little to do with the GWOT or Iraq--though I suppose his insistence that bin Laden=Hitler and therefore attacking Iraq and letting bin Laden go was the right thing to do (????) was so confusing to some of our less-informed countrymen that it may have gained some temporary traction. But, Iraq etc. aside--have you noticed that gas prices are below $2.50 in much of the country? Bush's poll numbers appear to be directly linked to the price of gas--it's very interesting.

[wiggs]

67. That torture memo is damning and should be read by every congressional

candidate and by current dc dems when debating torture.

It is indefensible and should be exposed to the american people over and over until they understand the folks they've put in charge.

[smoogatz]

70. A great many Americans think it's perfectly okay to torture

the living shit out of terrorists who are planning to conduct attacks on the U.S. As a political issue, torture probably won't have a huge impact. As a legal issue, of course, I think it's likely to be the undoing of Bush, Cheney, Rummy and the lot of them--it'll be interesting to see Bush try to pardon himself out of serially violating federal law, the Constitution, and international law.

[calimary]

74. It's also because of the perception he's been actively, in fact,

aggressively, pushing with all his speeches lately - anger, forcefulness, raising his voice, jabbing his finger at the camera or at his interviewer, thrusting his head forward - all the body language and corresponding verbiage - that in some people's minds translates into being a gutsy, ballsy pResident who's fighting hard to protect us from the boogeyman. Some people actually like his perceived aura of forcefulness. They also get off on his "resolute" stand on what he "believes," how he stays with it - stays the course on it, if you will. They call it steadfast. We call it stubborn and pigheaded. I think it's all in the dramatics and the staging and the acting job he's doing lately, and some people are buying it. I guess people like these just have to have SOMETHING to cling to in these uncertain times, even if it's self-delusion.

I've mentioned before - my best friend of something like 40 years, who's a wonderful woman except her politics utterly suck the big one. She's told me, in all sincerity, that "at least bush did some good things." I incredulously asked - "like WHAT???" And her answer? "Well, he had BALLS." Swear to God, that was her response. And she meant it. He himself reinforced this during the last campaign, whenever he said "you may not agree with me, but you know where I stand." And for some people, as ridiculous - in fact, completely INSANE - as it seems, standing firm is enough. Even if you're hideously wrong. If you stand firm on that, somehow you get a pass. John Kerry, in his convention speech, mentioned something along these lines (paraphrasing) "you can be stand firmly for something, and still be wrong." But evidently, that went over a lot of people's heads (like my friend's).

[electropop]

76. Bush polls and gas prices.

You may think Bush's rating at any moment has something to with carefully formed opinions on the War On Terror®; in fact it's a gas:

(thanks to pollkatz.homestead.com)

Now you know why gas prices are falling.

[al bupp]

82. This is brilliant, sir

Very enlightening, it confirms my suspicions. It's no wonder they never refer to it in the "Situation Room" or Faux News. My thanks for posting for our perusal and edification.

[chill_wind]

84. Says it all. And if prices stay down, but start shooting back up

right after elections, some people need to go to jail.

[Sanity Claws]

69. Welcome to DU, Theodora

[tblue37]

73. It also includes any American citizen that he decides to designate

as somehow being associated with terrorists.

[Old and In the Way]

3. It would not surprise me in the least.

This emotionally stunted man used to blow up frogs with firecrackers, I'm sure he's a big fan of torture. Somewhere, there's a Presidential Directive that green lights torture...that explains the urgency in getting the CYA legislation passed.

[Danger Mouse]

4. Yeah...

Bush's poll numbers are going up, up, up! The fact that this is happening after all the stuff about the Geneva Convention and everything fills me with a sinking feeling...that people approve of this. People actually think that torture is an acceptable policy. And not just a few twisted sadists. A large segement of the population.
Condone torture.
This November...may very well be America's last hope.

[Patchuli]

7. Which polls? nt

[Danger Mouse]

12. Good question.

My mother told me that Bush's approval rating was up to 44%?? I didn't quite believe her at face value, didn't see anything on CNN, but it's not like she would lie (she hates Bush as much as anyone with half a brain should)...anyone know about this?

[kpete]

14. It was

new Gallop 44%
It will NOT last...

[fooj]

19. Take a look at this...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=2835585&mesg_id=2835585

[elehhhhna]

37. POLL FRAUD MUST PRECEDE VOTE FRAUD...

... this time around, anyway.

[Change has come]

16. here is a link

from GD: Politics

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2835848

Rove being Rove.

[bdamomma]

39. it's all in the Rove playbook, to get people sucked in again

to vote the Repigs in again, just because they are desperate and they will DO ANYTHING OR SAY ANYTHING TO make those who want to believe them that bush is doing a great job. makes me want to :puke:

[spanone]

49. Bush* spent an entire week in our living rooms and got a bump in polls.

This means nothing. The torture issue will not go away. They cannot silence all those tortured.

[Jed Dilligan]

54. I wouldn't be surprised if

a large segment of the population WAS twisted and sadistic. What else do you think happens when you de-educate people and feed them a constant diet of violent entertainment?

[gully]

60. They're being lied to. Being told "it's not torture, it's hazing"

and "it's saving America from terra."

Lies lies and more lies.

It's good for them their base is so f-king ignorant - and that they have 3 times the money democrats do to spend on smearing decent people who wish to right this tragic wrong.

[seafan]

6. Randi Rhodes described water boarding more fully today.

She described it as the victim's face being completely covered with plastic wrap and then the person is strapped to a board which is tilted so that the person's head is submerged.

The sensation of suffocation is instant as the victim's head is forced under water. The person nears death, is revived, and is forced to undergo this torture repeatedly. It was very difficult to listen to her describe it.



This makes me scream inside for these victims.


In all of my life I have never been so enraged by the evil that has possessed these subhumans who have ordered and committed these atrocities and seized our country by the throat and are ripping it apart.


I read today that next week the International Red Cross will be going to Guantanamo, and they will ask specifically to visit the 14 "high-value" detainees just recently moved there from *'s secret foreign locations.

I think we will be hearing some horrific evidence very soon of what has been done in our name.

[oldlady]

18. on waterboarding

the question that's been nagging me is this-- doesn't this cause permanent brain damage, even if the person tortured survives? Many years ago, I worked at a state institution for the developmentally disabled -- many of our residents were the victims of near drowning and functioning at infantile levels. I guess if this administration spends any time on science, this is it ... I'm just horrified.

[seafan]

34. You are right, oldlady. These men will have lasting damage.

Prolonged oxygen deprivation to the brain will cause irreversible damage via cellular death.


If we do not stop these *CO criminals, the results will be catastrophic.

[Drops_not_Dope]

40. Memo Link

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/nation/documents/dojinterrogationmemo20020801.pdf

Considering the long term impact of 'the water boarding method' IE: Torture, it violates even the parameters set by the DOJ in their interpretation of Geneva and the Convention Against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhumane or Degrading Treatment or Punishment. http://www.ohchr.org/english/law/cat.htm

[leveymg]

81. O2 deprivation most effective on double-agents who knew too much.

"Okay. Omar, tell us everyone who you've told about "Mike Smith", you remember who gave you that money, those Stinger missiles, and the airline schedules?"

"Nobody, I swear. I always maintained that secret, particularly everything about Mr. Smith!"

Five hours later.

"Omar. Omar, can you hear me? Tell me again the names of those you told about Mike Smith."

"Ahhh ... gurgle, I can't . . . who is this Mike . . . what is that name? I never met anyone named Mike . . . Who is Omar?"

"Okay, this one's good to go. Repeat Omar's rinse cycle three more times before he's sent to Gitmo."

[flyarm]

22. WHO REMEMBERS THE BEGINNING OF THIS WAR OUR POW'S

that were captured??
i remember our media saying over and over that it was against Geneva conventions to film them..or to take pictures of them...

seems rather elementary now after hearing what we have done to our captives..

but elementary or not..our soldiers can not be protected by the international red cross nor international law..without the Geneva conventions..

i remember during vietnam..we heard of violations of Geneva all the time regarding our soldiers..

how can we have any moral standing when we are the equivalent of the worst evil on the face of the earth??

torturers...all in our name..

well i for one feel nothing but shame..shame to say American citizen..anymore..

fly

[July]

30. I remember, flyarm. I believe it was Rumsfeld himself who brought up

the Geneva Conventions in that instance. And that was for the "humiliation" of being paraded on television, nothing more.

[tblue37]

75. And then BushCo broadcast photos of the corpses

of Saddam's sons, photos of Saddam in his underwear hand-washing his socks, and Zarqawi's corpse.

[bdamomma]

41. they are probably doing a lot more than just waterboarding

is this what some americans are accepting???? geez, what a sick bunch of people out there.

[magellan]

8. "That's what happens when you become an enemy to the rule of law."

I like Turley, he knows his stuff. If I had to pick an argument with him it would be that he underplays the truth a bit. We have official testimony from countless ex-detainees detailing the hell they endured. And I'd say we're pretty much alone already; Bush** has destroyed our credibility around the world...and worse, he doesn't give a rat's.

Instead of infiltrating the enemy we've become the enemy. Do BushCo think they're the baddest boys on the block, that there are no predators out there who won't pounce on the weak position Bush** has left us in? There's definitely one: China. And they won't have to fire a single round.

[Marr]

9. How many fucking laws do these people have to break before

someone calls them on it? It's like they're TRYING to get arrested and no one will help.

[magellan]

15. That's the best description of the last 5 years I've heard

It's like a Monty Python script. Now I'll have to indulge myself. :)


Bush**: "I've sinned, I've lied, I've broken countless laws...Pleeeeeze ARREST me!"

Republican: "Arrest you? We're throwing you a party!"

Bush**: "I don't want a party."

Republican: "Wear a tux. The Rev. Moon will be there."

Bush**: "But you have to stop me. I've used the Constitution as toilet paper, literally. I've had people drug from their homes in the middle of the night and tortured for information they don't have. And now I want to spread more democracy! I've got people on the ground in Iran already! One word from me and it's over, KABOOM!"

Republican: "Well, there you go, then. On your way."

BANG!

Bush**: "I just killed that old lady! I'll kill you too if you don't lock me up!"

Republican: "Fuck off."

[Marr]

20. Hahaha!

Very Python indeed. :D

[Mojambo]

21. LOL.

Nice Work!

[July]

31. Hilarious, and sadly close to the truth. nt

[Jack Rabbit]

10. What will it take to get America moral compass back?

I really shudder when I consider what it will take to get America's moral compass back. Bush and the neocons hid it well.

[malaise]

24. I find it amazing that

as they wrap themselves in the flag and religion, they violate both the constitution and their bible.

[Efilroft Sul]

32. Malaise, that was as to the point as anything I've ever read.

Kudos to you.

[bdamomma]

45. they don't care about the constitution or the bible or laws

they do not believe in them at all, how much more can they do, or we haven't got to the bottom of the barrel yet, do we still have food on our tables, or I forgot the gas prices are going down.

[malaise]

47. So why aren't the Dems dealing with this message n/t

[pushycat]

55. Guilt. Complicity. Apathy. Holding their powder.....etc

[thereismore]

38. Full disclosure, and an apology to the world (by the next President) nt

[bleever]

11. "Almost beyond definition..."

We could start here: Congressional investigations.

Impeachment may not in the end be necessary.

[young_at_heart]

13. The amount of damage done (on so many levels) is incalculable

Bush very much wanted to be known as the "War President" but he has become the "Torture President".

[bdamomma]

46. and we have become the "torture nation"

[moondust]

17. I think the world already knows.

Secret prisons, renditions, Abu Ghraib, innocent Canadian tortured in Syria, seeking retroactive changes to the Geneva Convention, ... Connect the dots.

If this were a small country in Africa he'd surely have a standing reservation at The Hague by now. I suppose in this case the wheels of justice are very large and turn very slowly.

[canetoad]

23. I get chills

when I hear discussion of the degree of torture that is acceptable.

Did you know that during the Inquisition, instigated by the Franciscans, it was considered wrong, ungodly, to spill blood. Thus the most grotesque and painful forms of torture were formulated. It was fine to burn someone alive, as it spilled no blood. Likewise breaking bones with a mace or on a wheel. The rack and other devices were used to disarticulate joints and gallons of water were funnelled into mouths, over a 10 or 12 foot long piece of cloth, which was carried down the oesophagus into the stomach then violently jerked out. But no blood was spilled.

There is never any way to rationalize torture.

[semillama]

27. Huh, so that's why clerics in D&D carry maces.

how about that.

Not that I play D&D.


Anymore.







Because I don't know anyone who does.





Anyway, America is over, and Canada doesn't look so safe anymore, either. Iceland, anyone?

[Bridget Burke]

52. The Franciscans had nothing to do with the Inquisition.

Some Dominicans were involved, but the Order didn't "instigate" the Inquisition.

You're also wrong about the ban against drawing blood. It began during the Crusades, I believe. Bishops sometimes rode into battle but carried large hammers instead of edged weapons.

[Hubert Flottz]

25. Yes I know all this stuff, but at least we are being governed by the

party who won the last election on MORALS! American MORALITY, is as Bogus as Jerry and Pat's forgivness and love for their fellow human beings.

WE are in a world of shit my friends!

[C_U_L8R]

26. He is commander in chief

... and a self-proclaimed war-time president.

Of course the buck stops with Bush.

[ShortnFiery]

35. As Usual, Our Spoiled Frat Boy of a pResident makes it all about HIM.

He keeps citing the poor CIA agents but he only cares about himself and his crones. They know that even The Conservative Supreme Court didn't give them the blank check that they were hoping for after the Alito confirmation. Now they are like scared little Junior High Bullies redefining what has actually happened and deflecting blame on everyone except themselves.

I pray for Justice. The *non terrorist* victims (remember, these are ALLEGED terrorists) who were shamelessly spirited off to foreign prisons and tortured will not see The Leaders who ordered this imprisoned, but WE THE PEOPLE can get their evil a**es out of our government. That way, only through right wing think tanks and serving on boards of corporations within the Military Industrial Complex will they be able to spew their vile and demented views of "others." That's bad, but not as bad as allowing these horrible human beings POWER of The Executive Branch of The United States to hatch what could truly be World War III.

VOTE! Go in large groups and offer transportation to your friendly acquaintances who are hourly workers at the local grocery and other retail stores.

We must stop these evil people within The Executive Branch and *some* who are in Our Congress through LEGAL MEANS of the upcoming elections.

Throw the Fascist Representatives OUT!

Hold onto hope when times seem rough: Yes, "Give Me Liberty or Give Me Death!" - God Bless You Patrick Henry. I will not ever forget. :patriot:

[Kolesar]

43. Nice...eom

[hippiechick]

28. Let's encourage our President to demonstrate ...

... on live television, accompanied by other cabinet members, these 'tactics' that they want legalized. And if they all can withstand oh, say ... 16 hours of waterboarding and other
assorted Gitmo-games, then we'll legalize them.

[NewJeffCT]

29. Osama bin Laden couldn't have run us into the ground this easily

I mean, if Osama had a secret wish list prior to 9/11, it would have included:

1) Get US troops out of Saudi Arabia
2) Overthrow evil secular fake Muslim Saddam Hussein.
3) If US lets its guard down, implement large scale strike to show power of Al-Qaeda movement.
4) Goad US into wasting its military and financial resources.
5) Cause US to lose its moral authority (ok, that one is far-fetched... it's not like they would torture anybody!)
6) Create climate of fear in US so American people will give up their civil rights.
7) Drive up price of oil by creating regional instability, so my financial backers in Saudi Arabia can make billions.
8) Try to legitimaze other anti-American groups like Hamas & Hezbollah.

[bdamomma]

48. bin laden is just watching all of us and this shit that is happening

and watching us do all of this damage to ourselves.

[emald]

33. this turdball of an imposter pResident

should, by all rights, be in prison. Long ago he was AWOL and now a deserter (I don't give a shit about his made up discharge, he is a deserter, saved by papa.
Impeach and Imprison now.

[PurpleChez]

36. Stunning. I can't say that this would be good news,

but I hope we hear more soon. I sense some unravelling in the junta, and I think for every redneck clod who will revel in the proof that their divine W is torturing brown people there will be ten who recoil in abject horror. C'mon, folks, let's flush this turd!!!

[Kolesar]

42. Watch for them to appoint Jerry Ford as VP

Dick Cheney will step down for "health reasons" then flee to Uganda. Impeachment papers will be drawn up and bush* will resign, allowing Ford to advance to the presidency.

Ok, they will appoint McCain, who is less physically infirm than Ford.

[upi402]

44. note to Turley; don't fly

buses & trains please !!!!!!!!!!
:patriot:

[BonnieJW]

51. Turley?????? What about Olbermann???

[upi402]

56. For KO, the Pope mobile!!! n/t

[creeksneakers2]

50. Other nations will stop sending us

terrorism suspects and even stop sending us information. We didn't deport the terrorist Posada. All other countries will have to do is point to that and then refuse to cooperate with us. We'll wind up with less information in the end.

[Supersedeas]

53. Yet, Corp Media pundits, 'debating' the issue, act as if the memo never

existed

[redqueen]

57. Kick for the Immoral, Torture-Supporting, Fake Christian!

:kick:

[upi402]

58. Fake Christian, AKA the Anti-Christ

Maybe Chavez was serious???? and not just showboating.

[dwp6577]

59. I wonder how much international travel -

the Bush Crime Family will be doing after their reign of terror is finished.

Please let the beginning of the end for these thugs start in a couple months!!!

[Swede Atlanta]

61. Where is the outrage?

I wonder if the people who may be thinking torture against the "bad guys" is a good idea realize that if we re-define torture, we cannot be heard to complain if U.S. military personnel are subject to the same treatment. The world will laugh at us if a U.S. soldier is captured in Afghanistan and the Taliban uses waterboarding, etc. on him or her.

Military families, especially, should be outraged.

[kpete]

62. I feel it every day at DU

OUTRAGE!!!!!!
and personally, I like it...

[bobbolink]

65. I'm missing my daily K.O. fix! He gets terrific guests sometimes...

...other times, settling for the MSNBC stable, it's not so great.

I sure hope he can help break this story into an explosion of outrage!

[lonestarnot]

66. Thank you Keith and thank you Turley!

We simply cannot become them!

[young_at_heart]

68. If it's a violation of both domestic and international law... Congress????

Why isn't our Congress doing something.....have the Bushies truly established a dictatorship?

[TankLV]

88. Because, bunkerboy could sodomize little boys ON STAGE

and the repukes would STILL give him a pass...

[warrens]

71. According to their definition

Yanking out your fingernails and toenails is not torture. Putting hooks through your skin and hanging you from the ceiling is not torture. Sewing your eyelids shut is not torture. Putting electrodes on your genitals is not torture. If skin is not an organ, skinning you alive and rolling you in salt is not torture.

That's what they're really saying. And under those rules, I would love to interrogate Dick Cheney.

[Disturbed]

72. Article 147 of the Fourth Geneva Convention

That there is a debate about clarifying the GC is disgusting and alarming. It is clear.

Article 147 of the Fourth Geneva Convention defines war crimes as: "Willful killing, torture or inhuman treatment, including... willfully causing great suffering or serious injury to body or health, unlawful deportation or transfer or unlawful confinement of a protected person, compelling a protected person to serve in the forces of a hostile power, or willfully depriving a protected person of the rights of fair and regular trial, ...taking of hostages and extensive destruction and appropriation of property, not justified by military necessity and carried out unlawfully and wantonly."

[happydreams]

77. Merely a formalization of what they've been doing all along.

Lots of people have died in the US because they knew too much.

[autorank]

78. "And that is so serious it is almost beyond definition." You're on fire!

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0608/S00070.htm

[Realityhack]

79. Impeach... Convict... Extradite to The Hague.

Show the world we don't tolorate torture from ANYONE.

[Independent_Liberal]

80. TORTUREGATE!

I'm not a torturer!

:D

[KansDem]

83. "Memo to the SCOTUS: Never send a boy to do a President's job"

My new bumper sticker (idea).

("SCOTUS" would have to be spelled out; not everyone knows what it means)

[California Griz]

85. First the Crusade now the Inquisition

How long before they start burning people at the stake again.

[krkaufman]

86. Likely related to this story...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x2182091

The CIA may be looking for some CYA.

I'd love to see the CIA assume the (relative) moral high ground, leaving BushCheneyRumsfeldRove and their ROG minions as the pro-torture holdouts.

[georgialiberal1]

87. Terrified

Who knows if American dissenters are next. The administration regularly call us terrorist appeasers, so are we next. Scary thought that anyone could be arrested, held indefinitely, tortured, and tried in a secret military court. This is America isn't it? This administration has this "trust us" attitude. As in trust us or terrorist will kill your family. "Trust us, Iraq is bad" "Trust us, the Iraqis will love us" "Trust us, we are not using illegal wiretapping to silence our critics, or for political gain" "Trust us, WE DO NOT TORTURE" "Trust us, the Democrats can't protect you" "Trust us, 9/11 was not our fault" "Trust us, Jesus is on our side" "Trust us, huge tax cuts for big business will help the average American and the economy" "Trust us, running up a record national debt is good for the country" "Trust us, because we are good and they are evil" "Trust us, everything we've done is a failure but it was the right thing to do."