There is a pink elephant in the living room re Islam and Christianity

[Bjorn Against]

Now before I say anything I want people to know that I am absolutely not attacking Christianity in any way. I recognize that the vast majority of Christians are good peace loving people, and I do not want to see them slandered. I simply want to point out a simple fact that often goes ignored. I feel Islam as a religion has been unfairly slandered over the past five years, and I feel it is important to note that people of the Islamic faith are not the only people engaging in violent acts.

The fact is that in the so-called "war on terrorism" that is currently being fought Christians have killed FAR MORE people than Islamic extremists. The confirmed number of civilians reported dead in Iraq alone as a result of this war is http://www.iraqbodycount.net/">43,269 MINIMUM. However, that is just the number that has been reported in the media the actual number is almost certainly much higher. And that is just Iraq. Compare that number to the number of Americans killed on 9/11 and in the war and it does not even come close.

The people currently in power in our government are Christian extremists, and they are killing far more people than the Islamic extremists.

Now don't get me wrong I absolutely condemn both sides in this battle, and I am not making excuses for anyone. In addition I absolutely do NOT want people to use this information as an excuse to attack Christians, because the vast majority of Christians are good peace loving people, just as the vast majority of Muslims are good peace loving people.

We frequently hear however that it is Islam that is bringing all the violence to this world, and that is quite simply a lie. We do not have to go way back to the crusades to find examples of Christian violence, it is happening right before our eyes.

My point is ultimately that there are bad apples in pretty much every religion, but those bad apples should not be used to condemn everyone in the religion. In order to understand that, we really need to understand that it is not only the Islamic people engaging in violence.

[JustFiveMoreMinutes]

1. Whatever happened to the Catholics & Protestants

.. in Belfast, by the way?

[H2O Man]

2. I think that

many people around the world are aware of the large number of civilian deaths that resulted from the sanctions against Iraq that were put in place after the first Gulf War. That number included a huge number of children. I assume that is one of the most significant concerns that Muslim people living in the Middle East, and indeed around the globe, have.

[TheFriedPiper]

3. Religion causes problems wherever it rears its ugly head

[razors edge]

4. I'm pretty sure all the PNACr's arent christian. n/t

[Bjorn Against]

5. I do not deny that

I recognize that there are PNACers from other religions as well.

My point is that the majority of people in the Bush camp proclaim their Christianity very loudly. I am not claiming that they do not work with people of other religions, they most certainly do. But they also proclaim that what they are doing is God's will and they use their religious rhetoric to justify their actions.

The only way they are different than Al Qaeda is in tactics.

[razors edge]

7. so then by logic one can only

admit the human race will never be safe as long as religion is allowed to exist in it's present forms across the board.

[annabanana]

9. They could proclaim themselves unicorns too...

It wouldn't make them unicorns.

[Bjorn Against]

11. True, but you could say the same thing about Islamic extremists

I don't think the extremists are true to the teachings of Islam, just as I don't think the Bush Administration is true to the teachings of Christianity.

My point is that people who use religion to justify killing are wrong no matter what religion they proclaim.

[Bluerthanblue]

6. I agree, except that

the elephant isn't pink- (that's what people who are totally wasted see)
And it is more than the "Christians"- you need to add "Judeo/Christian"-
"Incomplete Christians-" share in the hypocrisy that Islam is responsible for all violence.

(Jews who come to embrace Christ are called "completed Christians"- by fundies)

I agree with your very honest observation. And I also am a person who desires to follow Jesus Christ.

[Bjorn Against]

8. You are right I really should have said Judeo/Christian

My point remains the same however.

There are extremists in most religions, but we should not judge the entire religion by the extremists.

[Bluerthanblue]

10. I think you are absolutely right- we shouldn't judge 'groups' by

the actions of individuals, or individuals by the actions of 'groups'.

[soothsayer]

12. Hey, we sided with the Muslims in Bosnia to defeat the Xians

[mikelewis]

13. This is not a war between Christianity and Islam...

The Arab killers are not Muslims anymore than American killers are Christians. This is a political and economic war and these wicked leaders are adept at driving wedges between two groups and setting them at each others throats. Are Republicans and Democrats not at each others throats just as virulently? Jesus said that a house divided cannot stand and the powers that be use this to suit their nefarious ends. When Hugo Chavez call George the Devil in the U.N. today, I can understand the rhetoric. Because George does the devils work, how can we discern the difference between him and his master? These evil men prey upon the phobias of the weak and the meek; they force-feed fear to sheep... if the Devil were real, wouldn't he do the same?

You can call Neo-cons Christians if you like but the name denotes those who believe and act according to Christ's teachings. If they do not act as Christ would act... they are not Christians, no matter how many times they proclaim "Jesus is Lord." They water down Christianity and say that all one needs do is proclaim Christ as God and they've got a ticket to heaven. Once that ticket is paid, they believe they can dance on the road to Hell and God will forgive every intentionally evil thing they do as long as they say it's "in the service of God".

It doesn't work that way... no one should call themselves a Christian, it is our neighbors that should bestow that title. If you meet a Christian, you'll know it and proclaim them as such, without them every having to inform you of their faith. Christianity is not a club that one joins or some clique that one is born into... Christ has laid out a path and only those that follow that path have the honor of that title being etched on their soul. Truthfully, I wouldn't consider myself a Christian even though I believe Jesus was truly the Son of God but I'd know one when I saw one. You can't twist every aspect of Christianity on its head so you can claim you can do evil to do Good. That lie has already been debunked by the man himself.

The same thing applies to the sheep who blindly follow the hucksters in the Islamic world. Terrorism only serves a political or economic end... never a religious one. Religion by it's very nature is intended to shield a person from the harshness of this material world, not destroy them in it. It was once described as the opiate of the masses for that very reason. When man first created gods from the things they envisioned in heaven such as the Sun and Moon, Rain and Wind, Earth and Fire, they did so because they sought the comfort of divine shelter from a terrifying force. The same thing holds true today... people seek out religion for comfort and shelter but too often they only find Man pretending to be God. It's by believing in the divinity of Man's word that too often very good souls are led to Man's end.

The people in power are not "Christian" Extremist any more than our enemies are "Islamic" Terrorists. These faiths are being used to set one group against the other and while the fighting is raging, thieves steal the gold from both altars. Muslims and Christians can live peaceably together and by the nature of our faiths, we are beholden to that peace. Tragically however both sides seem to feel quite comfortable snubbing the will of God to serve the lust of Man. If they serve man, they are not serving God but ironically if they serve Mankind, they are serving God... it's when we remove the "kind" that we spoil our relationship with God.

To continue referring to this economic and political struggle as the clash of two religions only serves to help the thieves. Christians didn't kill 43,000 Iraqi's, lies did. Muslims don't cut the heads off people, distortions do. I could walk around the rest of my life proclaiming to everyone I meet that I'm a worshiper of yarn but my lack of faith in the divinity of yarn and may failure to follow the will of the string could never make me a Yarnian. In truth, couldn't I be just a cotton salesmen looking to score a buck or a politician looking to feast on the power of yarn worshipers? This is not a clash between religions so I wouldn't waste my time wracking up points against either side. Look for the thieves who are robbing the temple while the hypocrites are off fighting... those are the one's who have the numbers wracking up against their souls and what's worse is they're dragging down countless others with them.

You wrote that "there are bad apples in pretty much every religion", this is how I'd respond to that...

"Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but underneath are ravenous wolves.
By their fruits you will know them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?
Just so, every good tree bears good fruit, and a rotten tree bears bad fruit.
A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a rotten tree bear good fruit.
Every tree that does not bear good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.
So by their fruits you will know them.

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.
Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?'
Then I will declare to them solemnly, 'I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoers.'

Yes, there are bad apples but they will be cut down and thrown into the fire along with the tree that grew them. A real follower of Christ isn't worried about that fate for himself and my guess is... neither is a real follower of Allah.