Note To DU: Chavez Is NOT A "Good Guy". Just Cause He Bashes Bush

[KittyWampus]

that does not excuse his attempts to silence critics and the media.

Or do some DU'ers think it's okay just because you agree with him on certain issues? If so, that is intellectually inconsistent- putting it politely.

From HUMAN RIGHTS WATCH (not exactly a rightwing smear machine):

Venezuela: Court Orders Trial of Civil Society Leaders
In ordering the trial of four civil society leaders on dubious charges of treason, a Venezuelan court has assented to government persecution of political opponents, Human Rights Watch said today.
July 8, 2005

Venezuela: Rights Lawyer Faces Judicial Persecution
Criminal Investigation Launched to Intimidate Critic of Government’s Rights Record
The Venezuelan government should immediately halt criminal proceedings opened against one of Latin America’s most prominent human rights lawyers, Human Rights Watch said today.
April 5, 2005

Venezuela: Curbs on Free Expression Tightened
Amendments to Venezuela’s Criminal Code that entered into force last week may stifle press criticism of government authorities and restrict the public’s ability to monitor government actions, Human Rights Watch said today.
March 24, 2005

Venezuela: Chávez Allies Pack Supreme Court
The Venezuelan Congress dealt a severe blow to judicial independence by packing the country’s Supreme Court with 12 new justices, Human Rights Watch said today. A majority of the ruling coalition, dominated by President Hugo Chávez’s party, named the justices late yesterday, filling seats created by a law passed in May that expanded the court’s size by more than half.
December 14, 2004

Venezuela: Media Law Undercuts Freedom of Expression
A draft law to increase state control of television and radio broadcasting in Venezuela threatens to undermine the media’s freedom of expression, Human Rights Watch said today. Venezuela’s National Assembly, which has been voting article by article on the law, known as the Law of Social Responsibility in Radio and Television, is expected to approve it today.
November 24, 2004

Testimony of José Miguel Vivanco
Senate Foreign Relations Subcommittee on Western Hemisphere, Peace Corps and Narcotics Affairs
Over the past year, President Chávez and his allies have taken steps to control Venezuela’s judicial branch. These steps undercut the separation of powers and the independence of judges. They violate basic principles of Venezuela’s constitution and international human rights law. And they represent the most serious threat to Venezuela’s fragile democracy since the 2002 coup.
July 7, 2004


Letter to President Hugo Rafael Chávez Frías
In a letter sent to President Hugo Rafael Chávez Frías, HRW expressed deep concern about credible reports documenting that National Guard and police officers beat and tortured people who were detained during the recent protests in Caracas and other Venezuelan cities.
April 12, 2004

Venezuela: Investigate Charges of Abuses Against Protestors
The Venezuelan government should conduct a thorough investigation into allegations that state security forces have beaten and abused detained protestors this week, Human Rights Watch said today. The investigation should also examine the circumstances of killings that occurred during confrontations between protesters and police.
March 5, 2004

Venezuela: Limit State Control of Media
Letter to President Chavez
The main purpose of this letter is to urge President Chavez to take steps to address serious threats to freedom of the press in Venezuela
July 1, 2003

Caught In The Crossfire:
Freedom of Expression in Venezuela
The Venezuelan government is not doing enough to protect journalists from violence, Human Rights Watch said in a new report released today. Human Rights Watch also urged the government to protect freedom of expression by ending its ongoing investigation of the country’s private television networks, and dramatically revising its proposed law to regulate the contents of radio and television broadcasts. The launch of Human Rights Watch’s report coincides with renewed public debate in Venezuela over draft legislation that the government of President Hugo Chávez has introduced on the “social responsibility of radio and television.” The draft legislation would impose stringent and detailed controls over radio and television broadcasts, greatly limiting what could be aired during normal viewing hours. Under the guise of protecting children from crude language, sexual situations and violence, it would subject adults to restrictive and puritanical viewing standards. The 26-page report describes how journalists face physical violence and threats, often by fervent civilian supporters of President Hugo Chávez. Noting the justice system’s failure to identify and punish those responsible for the attacks, the report recommends that the attorney general set up a special panel to investigate the problem.
HRW Index No.: B1503
May 21, 2003

[eallen]

1. Too many people think the enemy of their enemy is their friend..

[niceypoo]

88. Chavez sounds exactly like a ranting republican

[arcos]

2. ...

:popcorn:


Personally I have mixed feelings about Chávez. He's done great things, and his people certainly love him, but he has an authoritarian and militarist streak I've never liked. In any case, the Venezuelan people have made their opinion clear at the ballot box several times.

[KittyWampus]

3. I appreciate his goals but reject the methods he uses... just as I reject

them coming from the Far Right in control of the US Govt now.

[w4rma]

4. This "danger" to freedom of the press in Venezuela is nothing but BS.

Big media in Venezuela constantly bash Chavez for made up stuff and it's the alternative media where Chavez gets his viewpoint out on.

Sounds familiar?

[KittyWampus]

10. You glossed over an awful lot of other citations. And are you saying

you think Human Rights Watch doesn't know what they're talking about and/or making shit up?

[w4rma]

19. Many of the Human Rights Watch criticisms are from during the coup.

While the right-wing opposition was in control. Although I see them sited, often, as criticizing Chavez.

The more receint ones are basically getting into politics. Court packing? Wtf does that have to do ith human rights? This is political. Even FDR tried it.

This media law that HRW doesn't seem to like? It's more like a stronger libel law. Similar to what Britain has in place.

I think HRW has an agenda in Venezuela and it's not a "human rights" agenda. Its a control of the government agenda.

[northzax]

155. which coup was this again?

the one in 2002? that one? cause maybe I am not reading the original posting correctly, but it sure seems like that list starts in 2003. maybe someone just discovered the rules passed during the coup? can you explain the variance?

[bahrbearian]

69. Duhh ,they have be bought out .

[eridani]

138. Their report on the US is pretty similar in many respects

Venezuela actually comes off a little better.

[w4rma]

11. And another thing. There are folks with lots of money in Venezuela who

really are comitting treason. They are working on building up right-wing militias to overthrow the government just like they did a few years ago.

They are not interested in using the democratic system. They can't get enough votes for their corporatist ideology, even with control of big media, to use the democratic system.

Yes. People really do commit treason. And when they do they should be tried for treason.

[billbuckhead]

5. What freedoms do Americans now enjoy that Venezeulans don't?

The USA has the highest percentage of it's citizens in prison than almost any other nation. Kind of an oxymoron to call the USA the "land of the free".

[Greyhound]

20. You can take "almost" out of your post. We're #1! n/t

[Mz Pip]

6. Pretty much indicates how

low we have gone, or how low BusCo has taken us when we start cheering the likes of Chavez.

Don't have to approve of one or the other. It's not a mutually exculsive club.

I've been to Venezuela. Wouldn't want to live there. Not by a long shot. I dont' care for BushCo but am not planning on leaving the country over him.

Mz Pip
:dem:

[Fountain79]

7. Enter the Chavez apologists.....n/t

[spacelady]

28. Cue the * apologists. n/t

[Occulus]

40. Sometimes, I think these anti-Chavez idiots are being paid n/t

[spacelady]

62. With what? Certainly not truth nor integrity! Snap - maybe gold dubloo

[LoZoccolo]

103. Oh yeah, no one could possibly have any real objection...

...to dictators that censor the media and rule by decree.

[Moochy]

109. Whats a matter did he nationalize your oilfield?

Had some stocks that tanked? Why are so many of you so anti-chavez?

Maybe theres another website where I could track these kinds of topics on DU and post my "honest" opinion on Chavez? Any suggestions? Cuz wading through all the communist socialist bullshit around here is really trying, but I still want to bash Chavez. :sarcasm:

[LoZoccolo]

117. To answer your second question: for the reasons stated.

The rest are bullshit so...

[Swamp Rat]

143. LOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!!!!!!!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[Bucky]

137. While "Chavez apologists" is a cheap shot, "Bush apologists" is just dumb.

With all due respect, of course. If someone forms an argument against Chavez's controversial policies and big brother approach to domestic politics, that doesn't make them pro-Bush. I expect to see cheap shot name calling arguments if I tune into Fox News (which is why I don't tune into Fox News). On DU, I expect arguments to be met with arguments, not hysterics.

[paulk]

170. yeah, 'cause questioning Chavez equates to supporting

Bush.

What a dumbass argument.

[Selatius]

8. Some of the HRW reports are fair, others are not so fair

In your list of articles, the first one is one that I challenge HRW on:

Venezuela: Court Orders Trial of Civil Society Leaders

Sumate is guilty of accepting foreign money from the US National Endowment for Democracy and using the funds to influence elections. That's illegal under Venezuelan law, and it's illegal under US law as well.

Human Rights Watch's own article even states this fact even though it's placed at the very end of the article.

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2005/07/08/venezu11299.htm

[KittyWampus]

12. Thanks for constructive input.

[Greyhound]

27. LOL, beat me to it! I started digging into the (unlinked) articles and

find the same thing. More reich-wing bullshit.

I'm sure he isn't a saint, but he is better than what we've got here and is light years beyond the US funded corporate fascism that the Venezuelans have suffered under for decades, while their country is looted.

[1932]

9. And Jose Vivanco isn't a good guy because he works for HRW.

Google can be your friend.

[w4rma]

33. "only because"

Jose Vivanco isn't a good guy only because he works for HRW.

[Flanker]

13. Yawn if you really wanted to know the truth at least read the media

http://opinion.eluniversal.com/

Seriously I can debate you all day long, but most of your evidence is wrong or outdated, there are no journalists or political oponents jailed in Venezuela.

Really try me.

[rman]

14. Here is the Human Rights Watch 2006 World Report

First of all: the complainst about Venezuela are just that: claims which are unverified by HRW.


Human Rights Watch 2006 World Report
http://hrw.org/english/docs/2006/01/13/global12428.htm
Note that the opening heading and paragraphs are about US abuses.

If you go to the country reports, the complaints about Venezuela pale in comparison to those about the US. There's simply no comparison. The US is ten million times worse.

US: http://hrw.org/wr2k6/us/index.htm
Venezuela: http://hrw.org/english/docs/2006/01/18/venezu12258.htm

---

http://hrw.org/wr2k6/wr2006.pdf

page 501
United States

Guantanamo Bay and Military Commissions

Torture Policy

Detainee Abuse

Al-Marri and Padilla

Material Witnesses

Incarceration

The Death Penalty and Other Cruel Sentences

Katrina

International Treaty Obligations

[KittyWampus]

15. If the Bush Regime is 100x worse, that still doesn't say much for those

being held in comparison.

[1932]

16. And the HRW attitude is entirely driven by Jose Vivanco and two minutes

of Googling suggest that he's not the most unbiased witness against Venezuela's government.

[NYCGirl]

23. What about Amnesty International? They have the same stuff. NT

[Flanker]

25. No they don't read what they actually say, AI > HRW.

[NYCGirl]

31. Here is a LOT:

http://web.amnesty.org/library/eng-irn/index

[w4rma]

35. That is on Iran, not Venezuela.

I went to the Venezuela page, and there was very little there since the failed coup.

[NYCGirl]

39. Sorry, brain fart. I'm reading up on a couple of threads. Here's Venezuela

http://web.amnesty.org/library/eng-ven/index

[w4rma]

47. The other folks that responded to you have much more informative answers

than mine. You should read their responses.

[Flanker]

41. Again read what it says, the worst attrocities are local police corruption

A deep Chavez failure but not what you think it is.

[1932]

79. The murder rate in rural Venezuela is high because land owners are killing

farmer activists and the corrupt local police won't investigate the cases.

I've seen some DU'ers try to blame Chavez for that. It's absurd.

[1932]

37. The one thing I find stunning about AI's Latin American Desk is that they

are supposed to be all about political prisoners, right.

Remembered when Vincente Fox brought charges against Mexico City's anti-neoliberal mayor (for building a road to a hospital!). They indictment was drawn up and he was going to go to jail.

Not a peep from AI. I scoured their website for a comment. Nothing.

Amnesty does great things. But they have a rule: they only complain about governments. Their policy forbids them from criticizing corporations (partly because they survive on corporated donations). No matter how much a country is following the direction of corporations, Amnesty won't implicate the corporation.

Now, I strongly suspect that when anti-neoliberalism is the key issue in countries like Mexico, it's too close for Amnesty's comfort and they won't say anything. By the same token, when the government is anti-neoliberal, I wonder if their thresholds for complaints shift in the other direction.

Having said that, I don't know what AI says abotu Ven. What do they say?

By the way there's a great book called The Twilight of Equality that talks about how NGOs which get corporate money have really started to suck lately. IIRC, the gay-rights group HRC gets an entire chapter with very well-supported argument making points similar to the points I've made in this post.

[1932]

38. The one thing I find stunning about AI's Latin American Desk is that they

are supposed to be all about political prisoners, right.

Remembered when Vincente Fox brought charges against Mexico City's anti-neoliberal mayor (for building a road to a hospital!). They indictment was drawn up and he was going to go to jail.

Not a peep from AI. I scoured their website for a comment. Nothing.

Amnesty does great things. But they have a rule: they only complain about governments. Their policy forbids them from criticizing corporations (partly because they survive on corporated donations). No matter how much a country is following the direction of corporations, Amnesty won't implicate the corporation.

Now, I strongly suspect that when anti-neoliberalism is the key issue in countries like Mexico, it's too close for Amnesty's comfort and they won't say anything. By the same token, when the government is anti-neoliberal, I wonder if their thresholds for complaints shift in the other direction.

Having said that, I don't know what AI says abotu Ven. What do they say?

By the way there's a great book called The Twilight of Equality that talks about how NGOs which get corporate money have really started to suck lately. IIRC, the gay-rights group HRC gets an entire chapter with very well-supported argument making points similar to the points I've made in this post.

[Jcrowley]

17. Pesky

Facts.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

18. First Iran, now Venezuela! Is it something in the water?

I don't admire Chavez because he bashes Bush. I admire him because he's the first president of Venezuela in years to do anything for the common people. I knew about him long before he basehd Bush.

[w4rma]

22. It is something bubbly. And we burn it for energy. (nt)

[chill_wind]

99. Yep. Undoubtedly a large part of the Bush regime ganda and agitation

that's been percolating for a long time. They are eating this up.

[Jcrowley]

21. The Reality Is

It's impossible to believe that a journalist at a newspaper as important as the Washington Post is so badly informed as you appear to be in your article "Chavez's Censorship: Where Disrespect Can Land You in Jail," published March 28. You can believe, if you wish, that Venezuela used to be "the most prosperous and stable democracy in Latin America" (with 80% of the population in extreme poverty, civil strife, and military uprisings), but you can't write, without lying, that in Venezuela, journalists are persecuted and the press is censored, because there isn't a single case that supports what you say.

You say the truth when you affirm that "some newspapers and television stations openly sided with attempts to oust the president via coup, strike or a national referendum." Before being Minister of Information and Communication, I worked as news director for RCTV, an important private TV station in Venezuela. Immediately after the coup of April 2002 against President Hugo Chavez, when hundreds of thousands of Venezuelans took to the streets demanding the return of their elected president, RCTV and other private channels decided not to report on this civil uprising, preferring to broadcast cartoons and old movies. Since I couldn't bring myself to participate in this censorship, I resigned.

<snip>

Your interest in having people believe that in Venezuela, journalists are threatened like foreign agents is understandable due to the number of agents that act as journalists, in both Venezuela and the US, to diffuse opinions concocted by the US State Department:

Declassified documents from the State Department (from the NGO National Security Archives) concerning the US Office of Public Diplomacy, managed by Otto Reich during the 1970's, demonstrate that the Washington Post was one of the newspapers used by the US government to spread its black propaganda against the Sandinista government. Washington Post journalist Marcela Sanchez publicly stated that in the months before the August 2004 presidential referendum, in which President Chavez was reaffirmed, (Roger) Noriega and others in the State Department visited the Washington Post's editorial board in order to influence its reporting on that topic.

<snip>

Instead of your incomplete, cartoonish, and malicious portrait of Venezuelan media and laws, I would have preferred to see, from a respectable "independent newspaper," a balanced analysis of our informative landscape. But I think that it's more likely that we'll find out, in the not-so-distant future, that you too, Mister Diehl, receive money from the State Department

http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=7718

[Judi Lynn]

49. It's delightful seeing the secret revealed that Bush had Noriega hovering

over the Washington Post, trying to dictate how they were going to cover Hugo Chavez. I'm sure, from everything I've seen, especially Mr. Diehl, they will not let him down! From your article, another good snipe:

Izarra noted that the United States has laws on national security and the President's security, which are stricter than Venezuela's. The Minister cited the US Code, Title 18, Section 871, which covers "threats against the President and presidential successors," and prohibits any offense or threat made against the President of the United States.

"...The {US} Patriot Act together with an Executive Order gives President Bush the power to determine when a person represents a threat to the United States. If the person is a U.S. citizen, he or she can be detained for an indefinite length of time without rights, be declared an enemy of the state, and even lose his citizenship. If the person is not a U.S. citizen, he or she can be detained without any rights and be brought before a secret military tribunal without anyone, not even his family members, finding out," Izarra said.

Venezuela's media has been criticized for openly supporting undemocratic methods to oust President Chavez, including a coup d'etat in 2002, in which commercial TV stations taped and broadcasted calls to overthrow the government made by military officers and civilian leaders opposed to President Chavez. The day of the coup, the El Nacional newspaper ran an extra edition with the prominent headline "The final battle will be at Miraflores," calling people to confront the government at the Miraflores presidential palace.
(snip)

Thank you very much. Excellent. (It's great to see the people really DID confront someone at the Miraflores presidential palace, and it was the power of the "opposition."

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

24. I Think Chavez Is A 'Grade A' Jackass And It Boggles My Mind Why

some here consider him to be some sort of savior. But then we do foster a lot of different people here with a lot of different opinions so I guess it's to be expected. My opinion of him is more in line with yours: That he's an utter piece of shit that I couldn't care less about.

[w4rma]

26. You are not very informed about the country. You should research more.

Even reading this thread, instead of only the headlines in the OP, would improve your knowledge.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

32. Don't Tell Me What I Am Or Am Not Informed About, And Put Your Nose Down.

I don't know who you think you are but I have every right to my fucking opinion of him as much as you have a right to yours. The fact that you respond to someone with a differencing opinion with ignorant assumption and misguided condescension is disgraceful and weak in my opinion.

Don't tell me what I need to read or declare what I have or haven't researched bub. Fact is I know enough about Mr. Fucking Chavez and I find him to be a piece of fucking shit. You don't like that opinion? Tough. I'm entitled to it every bit as much as you are entitled to think otherwise. Bye now.

[w4rma]

44. You can have any right to any uninformed opinion that you want.

And I can tell you that my opinion of your opinion is that you have either done very little research on this subject or you have an agenda that you are pushing.

So quit acting all angry that someone called you out when you are wrong on the facts.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

53. Who The Fuck Are You To Say It's Uninformed? What Pathetic Arrogance.

I am informed, and I think he's a total piece of shit anyway. So get over it.

My only agenda is to make sure I help represent the large number of DU'ers who also think he's a piece of shit but may be too apprehensive to state it bluntly because they fear reprisal from the rabid chavez defenders. My agenda is to make sure there is an additional viewpoint to the savior chavez posts. Fact is, there are plenty of good sincere hearted DU'ers who find chavez to be a piece of shit. Since you are part of this community, you should learn to accept that others will have differing viewpoints than you and that they are not simply uninformed because they do. To declare such things is completely disrespectful to the community here in my opinion.

Stop shoving your opinion down my throat as fact. It isn't fact. It's your opinion which is equal in weight to my opinion of him that he's a piece of garbage.

[w4rma]

56. Learn To Allow Others To Have Opinions That Differ From Yours. It Helps.nt

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

58. I Have. But Then It Wasn't Me Trying To Squash Dissent Was It.

God you guys are cracking me up. :rofl:

[w4rma]

65. Then who was?

Did someone shut off your account? Shoot you? Hack your computer? Tape over your mouth? Lock you up for your opinions? Have there been threats?

I am very interested to know who was infringing on your first Amendment rights and how.

Please tell me! And we'll stop them from doing this.

[Judi Lynn]

83. I'll help! I won't put up with it! What nerve. n/t

[Moochy]

116. someone stole his capslock though.. :)

[U4ikLefty]

167. Typical OMC posting. He calls names & then gets SHORT with people.

:rofl:

[scarletwoman]

105. May I see the list of the "large number of DUers" who have designated you

as their spokesperson?

I help represent the large number of DU'ers who also think he's a piece of shit...

Was there a vote? Did I miss it?

sw

[Occulus]

52. You know what?

People Who Capitalize Every Other Word- or Every Word- put Me in a Very Victorian State of Mind.

It's Annoying as All Hell- and makes Me Think they are Trying to Push an Agenda of some sort, by making Other People think they are Less Important, to not Understand why they Don't Understand why Certain Words are Capitalized.

It Smacks of a Holier-Than-Thou Mindset, and Again, I cannot quite Figure Out Why.

YOU NEED TO READ MORE. Period. And I WILL tell you you need to read more. If you don't like that opinion, tough. I'm entitled to it every bit as much as you are entitled to think otherwise. If you read more, you would know that what yuou are using is FAR from proper English grammar. The rub is, you've proven me RIGHT. You DO need to read more. You can begin by noticing that titles and sentences do not have words occasionally capitalized, but for proper nouns.

I had a college-level reading comprehension in third grade. Tested as such. YOU need to read more. Sorry, but capitalizing every word always- always always always- sets off my alarms that what follows is untinctured bullshit from the certified bullshit factory.

You need to read more. Period. If you object to that, my response will be: you need to read more. And if you object to my response to your objection, my response will still be: you need to READ MORE.

And that is the END of My Very Victorian State of Mind. Have a nice night!

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

57. You Need To Learn A Bit More Tolerance.

I also couldn't care less if it annoys you. Again, get over it.

[Occulus]

86. And YOU need to learn basic English grammar.

I'm not much impressed by your other posts, either. The ONLY reason I didn't ignore you as soon as I got here was, I found you AMUSING.

Get over it.

[K8-EEE]

92. No kidding.....

This guy has makes such The Grand Title out of every post....ego-rama!

[Moochy]

118. CAPSLOCK KID n/t

[mhatrw]

164. Who argues like this?

Hmmmm ...

[rman]

29. opinions are a dime a dozen

facts is where it's at.

[Greyhound]

36. How about if you consider that the people that actually live there

love him, and have taken to the streets to bring him back. But of course, I forgot that you are the arbiter and final authority on... what was that again?

I'm sure that President Chavez is losing much sleep worrying about what some anonymous keyboard warrior from the global empire that has killed and enslaved their country for decades thinks. :eyes:

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

43. Oh Get A Grip With The Drama.

I'm allowed to have an opinion and so are others here who don't agree with your 'Chavez is a savior' mentality. Don't be so dramatic in trying to sqaush other people's differing opinions. I mean, we're still allowed to think for ourselves and cast our own opinions without being forced to conform to group think in your world correct? I certainly hope so. If not, tough. I'm going to think for myself anyway.

I never portrayed myself as being a final authority on anything. I never offered anything insanely delusional such as that Mr. Piece Of Shit Chavez was going to lose any sleep over my thinking him a piece of shit. But does that mean I should let his sound sleep keep me from thinking him a total piece of shit? Of course not. Let him sleep all he wants. He's still an utter piece of shit in my opinion regardless.

[Greyhound]

You're right and the super-majority of Venezuelans are wrong.

If it's alright with you, I'll take their word over your baseless nonsense. M'kay?

Felling a little anal tonight? :eyes: :think:

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

60. You Just Don't Get It Do You. There Is No Right And Wrong In The Realm Of

opinion. You would do well to learn that simple fact. I'm not quite sure why you think it is a debate of right vs wrong when in order to be such it would have to be a debate of fact. It is a debate of opinion, each of which carries no more weight than the other.

Goodnight now.

[w4rma]

68. There are in *facts* though. Opinions can differ but facts can't.

Of course you haven't stated any facts, in this thread, yet so I suppose you are off the hook.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

70. I Know. But We Are Not Discussing Fact. We Are Discussing Opinion.

You think highly of him. I think he is a piece of shit. They are both opinions. The only fact is that they are just simply opinions. You have a right to yours without being irrationally attacked for holding it, and I have a right to mine under the same terms.

Goodnight.

[w4rma]

72. "without being irrationally attacked for holding it". You believe this?

You can't honestly believe this after irrationally attacking so many folks on this thread for holding opinions (which are contrary to yours).

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

74. ROFLMAO!

:rofl:

Yeah, it's me doing the irrational attacking. :rofl:

Bye now.

[w4rma]

75. Yes. That is my opinon. Are you going to "irrationally attack" it? (nt)

[tkmorris]

84. You know, you love to offer that opinion about Chavez

You shout it from the very rooftops themselves. Funny thing is though, you never seem to offer any reasoning for it. You call a man a, what was it, "piece of shit" I believe, and offer not one single reason.

Do you have a right to an opinion? You bet, knock yourself out. However when you voice an opinion everyone who hears it will also have an opinion ABOUT your opinion, usually based on how well you make your case. When you do it on a public message board, expect to be challenged. At that point you make your argument and either you do it well or you take your lumps.

What you DON'T do is offer an unsubstantiated opinion, then offer nothing more when called on it, only to follow that with increasingly incoherent screeds involving more anger than reason. Unless of course you enjoy losing arguments.

Got facts? Post em. Otherwise you should expect no one to listen to you. Oh, and please tone down the fury. It's just silly.

[Moochy]

122. Modus Operandi

You have nailed the OMC M.O.!

[Greyhound]

82. LOL! You're so cute when you get all riled up like that.

With the exception of the ditto-heads, it is my understanding that an opinion should be based upon some idea, fact,experience, or something, otherwise it is unavailing.

Anyway, I hope you have a better tomorrow. :pals:

[Bluerthanblue]

154. beg to differ on a small but vital part

of your statement that everyones opinions have the same 'weight'-

An educated, informed opinion DOES have more value and weight than one based on hear-say, gossip of the lip service of others. I can ask my young son if he thinks the burn on my hand is infected, and his opinion may be correct- but the RN who lives at the foot of our hill, can give me HIS opinion based on actual experience, facts and information my son just doesn't have.

Try not to let your passion cloud your perspective.
It happens to all of us someday-sometimes.
Peace,
blu

[Judi Lynn]

66. Whoops. wrong post. excuse! n/t

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

71. Calling Someone A Freeper For Not Sharing Your Opinion Is Pathetic.

In fact, there is nothing more freeperish in my opinion than personal attacks of that nature declared for such reasons. Tell me: Why am I and others not allowed to freely think for ourselves that chavez is a piece of shit without being subjected to such baseless attack?

[rman]

106. It is freeperish to ignore facts

You even went so far as to say "we're discussing opinion, not facts" - you seem to think facts are irrelevant to opinion.

[Moochy]

127. Have you explained why you have that opinion?

You have expressed that you want to fuck him, we get that. Now why do you hold such irrational hatred for a democratically eleted leader of another country, whom our govt. tried to overthrow? Hmm?

I'm suspect it's the result of exposure to a right wing hypnotist who convinced you that you were a chicken.

"I'm a chicken, Marge!"

[Judi Lynn]

76. Might have something to do with his "lifestyle."

[Donald Ian Rankin]

159. Tell me,

In 2004, did you take the word of the majority of Americans who backed Bush?

Do you take the word of the majority of Russians who back Putin, despite his massive program of human rights abuses in Chechenya?

Chavez's popular support (obtained through a mixture of legitimate and illegitimate means) means that no-one has any right to use any means *except criticism* to oppose his continuing to govern Venezuela. It *doesn't* mean he's a good thing.

[Greyhound]

160. a.) A majority of amerikans has never backed the crooked shrub.

b.) I have no opinion of Putin one way or the other and the situations in Russia and Venezuela are not comparable, but when I see hundreds of thousands of Russians in the streets demonstrating in his favor, I'm going to look more closely at what is going on there before forming an opinion of him.

Do you have any evidence to back your claim that President Chavez has garnered the incredible support he enjoys through "illegitimate" means, or are you just repeating the ruling class propaganda?

I don't know President Chavez and I've never lived in Venezuela, but I believe in giving everyone a chance to prove they're a criminal before branding them as such. Like any national leader I'm sure that he is an asshole, as that seems to be a prerequisite for seeking that position, but looking at what he's done so far and comparing it to what he has said he would do, I have nothing to base any significant criticism on. He has passed up many opportunities to declare dictatorial powers, something I can't say for any other South/Central American leader, although several appear to be moving in the right direction.

Are you at all aware of, or do you even care about, the decades of US sponsored murder, torture, theft, kidnapping, and environmental carnage, that has been perpetrated on everybody to the south of us? Do you support the claim of this and every other administration going back to Teddy Roosevelt or further, that the western hemisphere belongs to us?

[Donald Ian Rankin]

161. For evidence of

e.g. State interference in the media a good way above what's acceptable and in a clearly partisan fashion, use of excessive force against opponents and demonstrators and the like, allegations (far from proved, but substantiated enough not to be dismissed out of hand) of election fraud, use of state funds on what's essentially personal propaganda, and the like Wikipedia is a good place to start - I wouldn't recommend it as a reliable source in itself, but it has plenty of links to sources that are.

Just because people you dismiss as "the ruling class" tell you something, doesn't mean it isn't true. Remember that Bush thinks the sky is blue too.



"He has passed up many opportunities to declare dictatorial powers, something I can't say for any other South/Central American leader, although several appear to be moving in the right direction."

He's also attempted to launch a military coup against a democratically elected
(albeit fairly unpleasant) president. He *does* currently have popular support, however he's attained it, and so he has no need to do anything undemocratic; his behaviour, however, makes me suspect he won't be averse to doing so if and when it's in his interests.



"Are you at all aware of, or do you even care about, the decades of US sponsored murder, torture, theft, kidnapping, and environmental carnage, that has been perpetrated on everybody to the south of us?"

Yes, but I'm also aware that it's nothing to do with Hugo Chavez. Two wrongs don't make a right. I'm also aware that, except for the environmental carnage, those largely ended with the Cold War.



"Do you support the claim of this and every other administration going back to Teddy Roosevelt or further, that the western hemisphere belongs to us?"

I don't support that claim; most of the more recent US presidents (including, for all his faults, Bush) haven't either.

[Beelzebud]

162. With that logic I guess America loves Bush and the republicans......

Afterall, we "elected" them, right?

[Selatius]

48. You're allowed to have opinions

In fact, I encourage it. Ultimately, this was expressed at the ballot box in the recall referendum in 2004. You disagree with Chavez, and that's okay, but most of Venezuela felt he was worthy enough to finish off his term in office. If everybody thought the same way, I'd be worried.

[Bucky]

140. Why are you personally attacking the OP?

If you disagree with his arguments, say so. What have you gained by personally insulting someone? How have you advanced the case in favor of Chavez by denigrating someone for the offense of disagreeing with your point of view? Those are not rhetorical questions... I really want you to tell me if you think you do any good by arguing that way instead of sticking to facts, analysis, and opinion?

[Greyhound]

144. I'm not. I responded to an inane, baseless, libel and he has made it

abundantly clear that facts, let alone reasonable discourse, are of no interest to him. OMC isn't the OP anyway.

[Occulus]

42. Learn and THEN post.

It helps.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

45. Learn To Allow Others To Have Opinions That Differ From Yours. It Helps.

I am of the opinion that Chavez is a piece of shit of which I have zero respect for. He could go fuck himself for all I care. You have an opinion that differs. I'm not going to tell you that you're uneducated for having it. It is fairly pathetic to turn around and claim such to me because I have an opinion you don't like.

It's almost like piece of shit chavez has a cult around here. Say anything bad about him and they all come out in rabid defense and have to make absurd accusations such as that those opposing must be uninformed or uneducated. God I hate group think and cult like behavior. People will have different opinions than yours. Learn to accept and tolerate that.

Fuck chavez.

[w4rma]

51. Wow. You are criticising someone for having an opinion. While

acting angry that they dare have an opinion against you.

:wtf:

I have some advice for you. It may sound familiar if you believe what you write:
Learn To Allow Others To Have Opinions That Differ From Yours. It Helps.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

61. What Are You Talking About? I've Criticized No One For Having An Opinion.

[Moochy]

124. Nathan Thrumm is that you?

[rman]

59. As long as you realize that - contrary to what Rumsfeld says -

facts do not change from time to time.

Opinions not based on facts are without value.

[gulfcoastliberal]

128. I think you're entitled to your opinion-but would you mind elaborating on

what facts in your view make Chavez a "piece of shit"? Because he nationalized oil production and implemented social spending with Venezuelas oil wealth? Or that he didn't go quietly into exile when the Bush-sponsored coup against him failed due to the majority of Venezuelas citizens that took to the streets? I just don't understand what makes him so evil? So you think Venezuela would be better off under the old oligarchy of thetop 1% running the country and pilfering the oi wealth to pad their swiss bank accounts whie relegating the poor to dust bin? Just curious.

[Judi Lynn]

78. Seems only sensible, for cryin' out loud.

Opinions WITHOUT information are formed in ignorance.

[K8-EEE]

67. Because He Is Doing SOMETHING About An Ignored Problem

What do you do when 90% of the wealth is held by 10% of the population? God help us, it is a problem we will have by the time Bush is finished with us, we're half-way there and it's no place I ever thought this country would be!

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

73. With All Due Respect, I Need Not Have To Think Highly Of Chavez In Order

to think Mr.Bush is a piece of shit as well. I can consider them both to be pieces of shit on their own merits, for the record.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

85. Heh.

"It's all about integrity, respect, honesty, decency, open mindedness, fairness, and genuine desire to wish good upon all. That is why I'm a liberal."

I know a joke profile when I see one.

[Moochy]

119. If it's a joke its a long running one

a fucking marathon joke.

[mmonk]

30. I still don't see him as a big villian that is a "dictator"

and big threat. I don't like everything about him by no means, but there sure have been alot worse leaders from South and Central America, most of which were US puppets.

[flyarm]

80. and most that ran Venezuela before Chavez were

US OIL puppets..i know..i lived there and i can assure you the way the government was in Venezuela before Chavez..only gave a damn about one thing..and that wa s the richest of the rich played ball with the US oil companies..and they didn't give one rats ass about the people..they ruled with an iron fist..

there were 18 yr old military boys on the streets with machine guns..every quarter of a mile..to keep the poor in control..

Americans were god and ruled Venezuela..to the bitter destruction of the Venezuelan poor!

Like i said..i lived there..and it was horrible..before Chavez for the majority of Venezuelans..

i saw little poor children who had people put their cigarettes out on their arms and chests for a boulivar..


there was no middle class..there was the oil boys and the companies that catered to the oil boys..and nothing else..

i saw children with their teeth rotted out with only points in their mouths..and blood on their gums..

there were no doctors for the poor..

there were only the very very rich..and the very very poor..

nothing in between..

i lived their 2 times with my husbands business..and each time we returned home i got down on the ground and kissed it!

the crimes against humanity before Chavez was disgusting..but it was run by our oil corps..and the Kuwaiti's had their hands in the oil as well.. so you heard little of it! there was no possibility of decent by the poor..they had no voice. NONE!

the pres of Venezuela and the VP were owned by US corporations..and don't you even attempt to tell me other wise..i knew the VP of Venezuela..and i danced with him 2 times on Christmas and New years and told him off..of what they did to their people..and he laughed at me..and said i was an American idealist!

fly

[Judi Lynn]

95. Thank you more than I can express for this post. It's priceless.

Your thoughts bear the imprint of actual experience and knowledge. So glad you added your touch to this thread.

[flyarm]

111. i just get sick of people talking about what they know nothing of..

when we lived there under previous governments ..one time machine gun fire went off in the caracas hilton where we lived..for 6 months..not once but twice!!..yes machine gun fire went through the lobby by young military ..

there was no freedom under previous presidents..

we were there 2 times through xmas..

my husbands boss sent xmas gifts to my son and myself..and for my husband in a duffel bag..a motorized car for my son..and the military was at the door of the hotel and took it all way from my husband and would not let him go into the hotel with gifts..xmas gifts!

my husband took a bus for some road trips..and several times had their bus stopped by military that got on the bus with machine guns..and put them in their faces ..and took their watches and money..and any other jewelry they had..

this was under the presidents that the * cabal liked, the ones that stole every thing they could from the people of Venezuela.


There were days my son and i sat at the hotel pool and we had helicopters flying over head and the pool,.. so close you felt like you could reach up and touch them..with guys hanging out of the helicopters with machine guns pointed at us..i would run my son and I up to our room and hide..as best we could..

it was terrifying...

there was no hope at all for the poor..none at all..the young men had only the choice of military unless they were from the very rich families..

or working in the american oil fields for pennies...

so bullshit is bullshit.,.

i saw it..and i lived it..and i can tell you..Chavez may not be perfect..and i am sure he is not..but he could be no worse than what those poor people lived under for so many years with our oil puppet presidents and governments down there!! and they were ours!..they were owned by our oil companies!

I lived with the oil people at the rich hotels i lived in..and the pilots for our oil companies..and the pilots for the Kwaiti's...they used to show me the Krugerrand they got as tips..big ones!!

my husbands boss had a Renior in his freaking bathroom!

yes a real one!!

like i said..bullshit is bullshit..the previous governments were American oil company owned..and our government ran them ...

fly

[Judi Lynn]

134. Now isn't it so interesting THIS kind of information NEVER made it to the

States, and we were ALWAYS led to believe things were GREAT with Venezuela. Jeb Bush worked in a bank there, Reagan State Department "Office of Public Diplomacy" propagandist, Cuban Otto Reich worked there as an ambassador, Cuban terrorist, Luis Posada Carriles got a Vene. citizenship and worked there as head of the secret police in Caracas, conducted tortures of tons of people well before he and Orlando Bosch bombed and mass murdered 73 people on the Cubana air liner in flight. Many more Miami Cubans also came and went from Caracas, and were involved in the Iran-Contra crap.

Apparently Caracas was a "home away from home" for many of the right-wing terrorists, and probably during the time you were there, too.

I'm bookmarking this thread because of your posts. I will surely want future DU'ers to see them when right-wing loons start gibbering again, and you know that's continual!

By the way, the Venezuelan President who was impeached for massive corruption, the same one who had his troops fire into crowds of protesters, Carlos Andres Perez, who lives in Miami and New York, continually calls out for someone to publicly murder Hugo Chavez. He is a friend of the elder _{George Bush.}.

[mmonk]

147. And you won't ever see this kind of information in

America's "mainstream" media.

[Lisa]

168. there is something about oil fiefdoms ...

Flyarm, thanks so much for posting.

My best friend at work used to live in Iran, in the day of the Shah. She told me about how the oil companies would lord it over the local people. Iranians who had PhDs were made to sit at the back of the bus, in their own country. The city stank of pollution, and people who complained about it or worried about their children's health would be beaten. The company bosses would literally work people to death. Dissenters suspected of being in the opposition, or even trying to campaign for better working conditions, would be "disappeared". They would be taken out in a military helicopter, and pushed out over the desert somewhere -- if they miraculously survived the fall, they would die slowly of dehydration. She married an Iranian, and some people in his family had this happen to them.

It was horrible. She still cries when she thinks about it. She told me that the US is lucky that they have someone they can at least negotiate with in Venezuela -- Iran ended up with a bloody revolution.

[Cha]

149. I thank you, too.

I'm sure Chavez isn't perfect(no one is)but what an amazing turn around for Venezuela. Oh, that we can have that here someday.

[WillyT]

34. The Same Could Be True Of Some At DU, No ???

:shrug:

[spacelady]

46. Perhaps it has become a sad day when the likes of Chavez has

a world podium to condemn the US Government & other world leaders listen & applaud. THAT is the issue here, not whether Chavez or whomever is a crazy blowhard. It has become so bad that the world is actually Listening. And AGREEING....

[Greyhound]

50. It is very sad what we have done to our country.

I never in my life imagined that one day I would be ashamed to live here. :cry:

[mmonk]

55. Yes, that is the real story indeed.

[EFerrari]

126. The LIKES of Chavez?

What does that mean to you, exactly?

He is transforming Venezuela and uniting progressive governments all over the region.

And, btw, the US Goverment has been screwing over democracy in Latin America for the last 150 years. The rest of the world knows he's only saying what everyone has been thinking about the US Government for quite a while.

I'm just surprised that the "likes of Chavez" even bothers to take the trouble.

[Judi Lynn]

136. He is paying the ultimate price, too, every day. There's not a trace of

doubt he is in danger of being blown away every single day. He has some powerful enemies, doesn't he?

Hope he lives to be a very, VERY old, assassination-free, airplane-accident-free, healthy old man.

[EFerrari]

139. I think Mr. Chavez performance was in some ways too layered

for many people to understand -- particularly when we've been trained to respond to this Cabal and they're two dimensional theatrics for so long.

[EarthNeedsHope]

54. He's a good guy because he's helped millions of people

Through his Latin American cooperation programs. His "suppression of free speech and democracy" is far less "suppressed" than any of the US allies.

[Lisa0825]

150. Welcome to DU!

:hi:

[Jcrowley]

63. Here's what I think

The world of "human rights philanthropy" does not need strings attached to function as if the strings were attached. There is no string attached that overtly says "your organization must get regularly quoted in the New York Times for our foundation to give you money." But it is one of the long unspoken rules. But to get regularly quoted in the New York Times, Washington Post, etc. especially by ilk like Juan Forero and Larry Rohter, the Latin America mercenaries, er, "correspondents," you have to play ball. You have to serve as the garbage men for their agendas.

HRW - and this is my opinion - is caught in the trap of that "objectivity" game because the market forces of "philanthropy" force it to do so. Since there are so many more governments in this hemisphere that operate according to imposed capitalist principles, HRW bends over backwards to show "objectivity" by whacking two or three non-capitalist governments (mainly Cuba and Venezuela) with much more volume and force and frequency than they deserve. Why? In order to show that HRW is "objective." Do the math. If you have 15 governments on the neoliberal right, and two on the "not signing up for neoliberal duty" left, and HRW tries to dedicate "fifty percent" of its attacks along those ideological lines, then the side with fewer governments gets whacked, "per capita," a lot more frequently. That's not because they have more human rights violations (certainly not in the case of Venezuela, where HRW admitted four years ago that it was the only country in the region where human rights had expanded instead of shrunk: and if HRW were honest it would admit that is true, now joined by Brazil and Argentina, also, today). It is because HRW is simulating a kind of false "even handedness" in choosing which governments it attacks and how often.

This kind of behavior gets HRW its frequent mentions in the New York Times and others like it, and this keeps the money flowing. No stated "strings attached" quid pro quo is needed: the problem is systemic.

[savemefromdumbya]

64. ask some Venezuelans for their opinion of Chavez

[rman]

81. Ask some poor Venezuelans

I think it is fair to assume that most DUers who know anyone from Venezuela do not know any Venezuelans from the poor neighborhoods and slums. Needless to say, it the poor majority that supports Chavez.

[Judi Lynn]

96. You're so right! The poor don't do a lot of traveling, do they?

It's doubtful we'd EVER see a poor person from Venezuela in the States.

No doubt upward mobility has been only the wildest dream, completely out of reach in the real world in Venezuela.

[Zhade]

77. 1) Learn what you're talking about.

2) Reference actual facts in your next post.

Unless, of course, you want it to sound like your nonsense about how you support Intelligent Design - which is lacking in any facts you could post, so...

[Vidar]

87. Chavez is a "good guy" because he's an extremely popular leader,

a champion of the poor, an implacable foe of corrupt corporations, a man of tremendous personal courage and generosity. Hating Bush is icing on the cake.

[WillyT]

110. Psst... I Hear What You're Saying, But...

Be careful... It sounds like you stand for Democracy!!!

:yourock:

[Vidar]

120. ROFLAO.

[pitohui]

89. be that as it may

if it takes a shithead to stand up and say that *co has a screw loose, then that's what it takes -- and frankly i'm not all that convinced that chavez is any more of a shithead than any other politician in the americas and perhaps less of one than many

if a man stands up and tells it like it is, i can say, "tell it brother" without endorsing the man's entire past life

[chill_wind]

90. "Good Guy" Government Leaders in the present real world. Let's see a list

Not to come off as a real anarchist, but I'd venture to guess it's relatively short.

It's not a matter of his being a "good guy". It's a matter of substance.
The accuracy of his observations about the Bush/Cheney Neocon lust for world hegemony. People have a choice to analyze his observations as rather accurate or not....or refute and knee-jerk all day.


I know what my own thoughts are. He didn't articulate anything probably a large portion of the rest of the whole world isn't feeling about our own Asses of Evil, useless "devil" hyperbole aside. Not that Bush and Cheney have ever resorted to any similarly over the top rhetoric.. :sarcasm:

[bigtree]

91. All of that may be true about Venezuela, but it pales to Bush's crimes

Chavez spoke truth to Bush's contrived power which was used in an attempted assassination of the Venezuelan leader, and used to undermine and disrupt the government and political system of Venezuela with our nation's resources and agents. I would not expect any sovereign nation's leader to kow-tow to deliberate, imperious muckraking from anyone in our country's leadership. If we won't stand up against our own leadership, we shouldn't be surprised or offended when others, who find themselves at the point of our arrogance, speak out forcefully against it.

It should matter to those who would devalue Chavez's opinion out of distain for his stewardship of his own government, that he is not involved in any occupation of any sovereign country, nor is his country or their military responsible for fostering the deaths of tens of thousands of innocents, as we have been committed to.


As If Bush Was The Owner Of The World
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x2179418

[135th]

93. Chavez is an anti-democratic thug

But he is also a marxist thug who bashes Bush, so he gets a pass for his abuses of power. I don't doubt he is popular, so was Bush for most of his six years in office. Popularity doesn't chage the fact he has done things which deserve criticism.

[Judi Lynn]

101. It looks as if your vast base of knowledge has let you down this time.

Hugo Chavez is most certainly NOT a Marxist.

Hugo Chavez: 'I don't believe in the dogmatic postulates of Marxist revolution. I don't
accept that we are living in a period of proletarian revolutions. All that
must be revised. Reality is telling us that every day. Are we aiming in
Venezuela today for the abolition of private property or a classless
society? I don't think so. But if I'm told that because of that reality
you can't do anything to help the poor, the people who have made this
country rich through their labour and never forget that some of it was
slave labour, then I say 'We part company'. I will never accept that there
can be no redistribution of wealth in society. Our upper classes don't
even like paying taxes. That's one reason they hate me. We said 'You must
pay your taxes'. I believe it's better to die in battle, rather than hold
aloft a very revolutionary and very pure banner, and do nothing ... That
position often strikes me as very convenient, a good excuse ... Try and
make your revolution, go into combat, advance a little, even if it's only
a millimetre, in the right direction, instead of dreaming about utopias.'
(snip)

https://www4.indymedia.org.uk/en/2004/08/296440.html

One comment among many which should assist you in your quest for wisdom.

[Moochy]

132. !!

:yourock:

[Bridget Burke]

148. You guys really need to get another word than "thug"....

It doesn't mean what you think it means.

[Lisa0825]

152. Welcome to DU!

:hi:

[NNN0LHI]

94. 5 or 6 years ago I would have considered your point valid

I am a firm believer that people living in glass houses should not be throwing stones.

Lets clean our own house up before we start worrying about others.

And we have plenty of cleaning to do.

Don

[flyarm]

112. how right you are!!..thank you!! n/t

[KingFlorez]

97. You need to provide some more facts

Every time he bashes Bush, someone wants to make this kind of post. What is the point?

[KaptBunnyPants]

98. I love these Chavez posts.

They always help me update my ignore list. Someone says his name and the corporatistas come out of the woodworks, barely disguised right wing talking points a-blazing. The parent post has already been systematically torn to shreds, but I did want to add this. If HRW truly believes that the wealthy should be allowed to use military force to seize political power without reprisal, that the media should be entirely controlled by a corporate aristocracy, and that paid business lackeys should be able to riot in the streets, well, then they have a different interpretation of "human rights" than I do. It's sickening to see right-wingers subvert liberal causes to suit their vile ends.

[LoZoccolo]

100. 169 posts and you have a massive ignore list? n/t

[Moochy]

129. You are probably on it

What was that Ignored?

[Judi Lynn]

104. It's good you're using the "ignore" function. It is definitely your FRIEND

when you realize how many hours can simply be eaten away trying to shut up a right-wing idiot trying to disrupt a decent thread.

That's their goal, without a doubt: getting you so overfocused on their gibberish the real progress of communication gets sidetracked.

Way to go, KaptBunnyPants. :hi:

[scarletwoman]

102. Chavez IS a "good guy". I've been reading & researching his career and

the "Bolivaran Revolution" longer than you've been on DU (I checked your profile). I've debated and posted factual rebuttals and debunkings and clarifications of everything you've posted at one time or another. I've combed through more sources than you've probably ever even heard of, both pro and con, in order to form the most informed opinion possible.

I've traced back through all kinds of anti-Chavez propaganda to surprising sources, and delineated all of it in long, tedious posts full of linked citations.

It's too late at night, and I'm too tired to resurrect all of it. All I'm going to say is that posting these same tired pieces of HRW "evidence" does not make for an informed critique.

Chavez, being human, is no saint -- but neither was Gandhi, or ML King or Nelson Mandela, if you scrutinize them closely enough. But what all these leaders have in common is that they set in motion an empowerment of the common people to transcend and defy the powers of the entrenched economic and political elite classes that have always sought to hold them down.

So I will say, "Viva Chavez" -- he is a pot-stirrer, a rabble-rouser, a raucus voice raised against corporate imperialism; and I unabashedly bless him for that!

While Hugo Chavez exists as a leader, there is hope in the world.

sw

[mirandapriestly]

108. I agree, be wary of where anti-Chavez propaganda comes from. eom

[mirandapriestly]

107. Human Rights Watch is not what it seems

take a look at their Board or Directors and you will see former U.S. military, National Security Council & Council of Foreign relations, and various think tanks (almost always right wing although they disguise this).
The things Chavez is accused of do not sound excessive considering what he is up against and the changes he has made.

[bvar22]

113. Chavez is not a "good guy" just because he bashes bush.

Chavez IS a GREAT leader because he has diverted a percentage of profits from Corporations using Venezuela's natural resources to:

*Heal the Sick

*House the Homeless

*Feed the Hungry

*Educate the Ignorant

*Provide unused land to Peasant Framers


If THAT makes him a "Piece of Shit", then I'm a piece of shit too.

I can understand how some FEAR a populist leader like Chavez. If these reforms spread North (and they are, witness Mexico), America as we know it will cease to exist.

Chavez is neither a Marxist, nor a dictator. He may be a Christian.



The Democratic Party is a BIG TENT, but there is NO ROOM for those
who advance the agenda of THE RICH (Corporate Owners) at the EXPENSE of LABOR and the POOR.

[scarletwoman]

114. BRAVO! Great post! (nt)

[Moochy]

115. Think like a oil-field owning millionaire

Every American can be one, dontcha know?

:kick: great post!!

[earth mom]

123. Great post, glad that you posted it because the freeper posts

on this thread are disgusting! :puke:

[Cha]

166. That's right! Chavez is a

Christian(Catholic) and pat robertson wanted a patwah out on him?

I like that Senator Tom Harkin used the opporturnity to pile on bush not Chavez and to reeducate us..

snip~

"Iowa Senator Tom Harkin, a democrat, today defended Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez's United Nations speech in which Chavez called President George Bush the devil. Harkin said the comments were "incendiary", then went on to say, "Let me put it this way, I can understand the frustration, ah, and the anger of certain people around the world because of George Bush's policies." Harkin continued what has been frequent criticism of the president's foreign policy.

Harkin says Bush came to office saying he wanted a new humility in foreign policy in reaching out to other countries, but Harkin says Bush's actual policy has been heavy handed. Harkin says the anger against Bush is generated from the Iraq war, which Harkin says was "unnecessary."

Harkin says, "We tend to forget that a few days after 9-1-1 thousands, thousands of Iranians marched in a candlelight procession in Teheran in support of the United States. Every Muslim country was basically on our side. Just think, in five years, President Bush has squandered all that." Harkin says the U.S. has put billions of dollars into the Iraq war, when it could be helping poor countries with things like clean water, medical aid and education."


http://www.radioiowa.com/gestalt/go.cfm?objectid=020BFC5A-FA7D-42CC-9BA6A4ED9DA063B8

[samsingh]

121. he seems to be a good guy.

[mogster]

125. The media in V. supported the coup in 2002

I have so not any sympathy for unlimited freedom of speech in the press :nopity:

Have a look at the film about the coup:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5832390545689805144&q=the+revolution+will+not+be+televised

Smear comes from any source, and bias can be inherited by any org. Besides, HRW has bad things to say about any country, not only Venezuela.

Let's face it; the 'free' press isn't exactly free, it's controlled by corps. It's no different here than it is in the USA, and there's no reason to believe that Venezuela has been any luckier with their press corps. Considering the history of US-sponsored coups in South America and the stated goal of US Christian personalities to assasinate Chavez, you'd think they would take precautions.

[Ferret Annica]

130. I admire Hugo Chevez

Hugo did good, I am proud of him. Hugo is a leader, Bush an errand boy of governmental managers operating in the shadows.

[EFerrari]

131. Link to stream Greg Palast's profile of Chavez -- a piece that might

have had some bearing on his recent arrest by DHS -- do ya think?

"A special report by independent journalist Greg Palast in which he travels to Venezuela on special assignment from Link TV to get beyond the U.S. media image of President Hugo Chavez and to find out why the Bush administration is trying to oust him. The report offers a never-before-seen interview with Chavez, insight into Chavez’s relationship with the U.S. as well as Chavez’s plans for Venezuela, perspectives from opposition party members and raw footage from the slums of Caracas. To view the 30-minute film in streaming format, click here."

http://www.linktv.org/pages/selectorPop.php4?caller=http://www.archive.org/download&prefix=bolivars_20060612&name=bolivars_20060612&filetype=mov


"Palast has been hailed as “the most important investigative reporter of our time” by Britain’s Tribune Magazine and is celebrated for his BBC exposé on the purge of black voters during the U.S. presidential election of 2000."

http://www.linktv.org/programming/programDescription.php4?code=chavez

[Rex]

133. At least he was elected by the people and not some court.

Man, some people just hate the fact that Chavez has a more liberal country than ours. Really illuminates some things. :eyes:

[DianaForRussFeingold]

145. Did You Say He Was Democratically Elected By The Citizens Of Venesuela?

;) :kick:

[DeepModem Mom]

135. Thanks for this post, cryingshame. nt

[rman]

151. all his claims are debunked in this very thread

What's there to thank the OP for?

[LittleClarkie]

141. Oh, but it's okay when a lefty does it

didn't you know? :sarcasm:

Personally, I don't see where the ends justify the means, no matter what your ultimate goal might have been. You don't excuse a person for his behavior simply because you like the direction he's pointing.

[EFerrari]

142. No. Sometimes you admire him for the complexity of his argument

and his ability to communicate in many modalities. LINK just reported this as a speech that "drew laughter and applause."

Please don't compare Chavez to the right wing hacks in this country. They couldn't carry his lunch.

[YOY]

146. Exactly!

Just because seomone agrees with you on X,Y,and Z doesn't make their acceptance of A, B, C OK.

That and the cat is downright anti yanqui no matter how nice we would ever become.

[treestar]

153. Not the point

The issue is that other countries are starting to question US dominance. Countries with oil, no less.

The question is can we really kick the rest of the world around by force? Do we want to? Why not just buy their oil from them at a fair price instead of all the shenanigans? When you get down to it all the crap about religion/terrorism is just an excuse to try to force them to give us the oil on our terms. Follow the money.

[Annces]

156. He may be a bad guy too

but anything that labels Bush for what he is publicly helps to bring reality into the picture. None of our senators or congress people are shouting from the rooftops. But look how loud the outcry was about Clinton and his sexcapades.

[lectrobyte]

157. After the attempted coup, I can forgive him for doing a lot of that. He's

trying to do something, and he seems way more concerned with social justice than a lot of leaders I can think of. Too left for you? Fair enough.

[gorbal]

158. I doubt a perfect man would end up in his position the way he did.

But when I way what good he's done with the little proven "bad" (versus "alleged" like torture) I'd say he was a pretty good guy.

Human rights watch is a great organization, but I wonder at the detials of their issues with Chavez. For example, what do they mean by "state control of television"? Airwaves should be owned by the people, NOT cooperations, like much of Venezuelan media (and american). And you only have to look at this coorperate-owned Venezuelan media to realize that Chavez allows A LOT of free speech in his country, lies distortion and libel against his government is rampant.

I would not blame him for finally suing, especially when people around the world are believing Venezuelan cooperate owned media.

[Clarkie1]

163. It's disappointing a thread like this doesn't have more recommendations.

K & R.

[bridgit]

165. oh know you di'int...

:-)

[dollydew]

169. Chavez

When visiting Venezuela a reporter from Air America checked out the media in the country. There is a 24/7 anti-Chavez media going on. What does he do these people? Answer: nothing. OUR media is saying (the same media DU'ers claim not to trust) he's shutting down newspapers and arresting people. International human rights organizations (not all but most) agree. Bush wants this guy dead. Bush tried to have Chavez killed. Bush paid for an illegal coup against Chavez. When did Chavez do any of this to Bush?. I'm sure Chavez isn't perfect. Neither are the Democrats many DU'ers are willing to vote for. I'm not knee jerk pro-Chavez. I just giving my opinion that people should consider the source.

[tulip]

171. I'm with ya

I don't just jump at someone because they don't like Bush. I disagree with Bush........but I have values Chevez does not.