Chavez is not a dictator.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

That's all the title of this thread says. Chavez is not a dictator. If you are a person of reason, you'll read it and acknowledge that's all it says. But if you are infected with the anti-left hysteria virus, nobody on Earth will be able to convince you this thread's title is just "Chavez is not a dictator." For you, this thread's title is:

"I hate America and want to enlist in ChavezAhmadinejadCastroKimJongIlSaddam's anti-Christian homosexual atheist hordes and impose Sharia law on all the world and nuke all the blond white Christian babies."

And no, pointing out it exceeds DU's thread title limit will be of no use.

[PassingFair]

1. L.O.L.

Moderators:
Please feel free to delete posters
who post against him in their hysteria.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

2. I'd rather not, really.

They'll just prove the point. Stupidity is its own rebuttal.

[Jack Rabbit]

3. Chávez is not a dictator.

That is a fact and no one should be afraid to say it because the US Brown Shirt brigades threaten to beat up anybody who does or some well-meaning nervous Nellies in the DLC think it's a good idea to appease that kind of riff-raff.

Chávez is not a dictator. It's the truth. Don't ever be afraid to tell the truth.

[Horse with no Name]

4. Chavez was duly elected

the reason I believe that?
Jimmy Carter said so and I honestly can't think of anyone that has been in our government, past or present, that has as much integrity as he does.
Last I knew, dictators weren't duly elected.
Chavez scares the shit out of so many people because while our country works on empowering the rich, Chavez works to empower the poor.
That scares the middle class to death.

[Cleita]

7. He scares the shit out of so many people because they

can't control him. He has figured out how to stay in power without any help from the USA and bribery from the rich. That really scares them.

[pampango]

31. I agree, but in all honesty, didn't Carter and the EU election monitors

also say the the Mexican elections were legitimately run? Carter's assessment of Chavez' election as legitimate is good enough for me. Having foreign monitors does help with the credibility of elections.

I don't accept that Chavez is a dictator for this reason. Now if at some point in the future he decides that elections are not such a good idea, then I will change my mind, but there is no evidence of that. I lived in the Philippines during the dictatorship of Marcos. He was elected and reelected, but decided that the constitutional limit of two terms was just not fair. So the fact that one is elected does not provide immunity forever from charges of being a dictator, but Chavez is not one now.

[Horse with no Name]

41. I have heard nothing of Jimmy Carter verifying the Mexican

results. Do you have a link?

[pampango]

45. No link. I was wrong.

It was just the EU monitors in Mexico. Seems like I have seen them and Carter monitoring elections in many instances, but not in Mexico.

[Horse with no Name]

55. As far as other auditors go, I couldn't say

but if Jimmy Carter says it is so, then it is.
The Mexican vote should have never been verified. Plain and simple.
That is probably why Carter wasn't sent there.
Jimmy Carter is probably the only President in recent history who has never lied to us.
While wonderful when speaking of him, it is an incredibly sad state of affairs.

[Carni]

36. WHAT MIDDLE CLASS????

Do we still have one?

I was just reflecting yesterday after hearing Chavez speak that not only do WE have our own dictator here...we're supposed to like having him as he takes away all of our money and our dignity and futures.

I have never been a proponent of communism but honestly I was thinking yesterday what could be worse than what we have been experiencing since 911?

Slavery would be worse and sharia law would be worse (although we're almost there IMO here in the US except we are being policed by the bushit affiliated falwells etc given time they will be just as powerful)

I don't know too much about Chavez but I certainly cannot think of one thing to be happy about in bush's new America...poor slobs such as myself (previously known as the middle class) have very little to lose at this point.

I wonder if the GOP fools realize that if you kick a dog often enough eventually he'll bite.

[eleny]

5. "anti-left hysteria virus" - love it!

does that leave one with the unmistakable odor of sulfur behind the ears?

[Moochy]

6. But Iran and Venzuela and the Devil!!

...cue "Scanners" head explosion here.

[still_one]

8. Chavez is a thug

In my view he does NOT represent particularly admirable qualities:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugo_Chavez

[Kiouni]

10. that's the nice way of saying it

[Selatius]

13. As far as political issues go, I don't trust wikipedia anymore

Now, if I wanted to look up information on plantar warts, I can reasonably expect the information not to be tinged with somebody's personal political axe to grind. You should see how many times the entries on George W. Bush, Donald Rumsfeld, and Dick Cheney have been changed repeatedly because of politics.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

14. Smart decision. It's a permanent edit war.

And the talk pages are a riot -- "How come the completely impartial and factual statement that Bill Clinton fucks goats was deleted??? Wikipedia shows again its liberal bias!!11!!"

[wtmusic]

16. How does your view see dropping unemployment by 7%

and feeding the poor?

"The "Bolivarian Missions" have entailed the launching of massive government anti-poverty initiatives,<76><77> the construction of thousands of free medical clinics for the poor,<78> the institution of educational campaigns that have reportedly made more than one million adult Venezuelans literate,<79><80> and the enactment of food<81> and housing subsidies.<82> There have been marked improvements in the infant mortality rate between 1998 and 2006.<83><84>"

He is a thug by US standards; by South American standards he's a saint.

[still_one]

17. You think Venezuela is the garden of eden go for it

it ain't my cup of tea

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

25. Thank you

You illustrate the point of my OP to a tee.

[LynnTheDem]

44. It does do that, doesn't it.

To a T.

"If you disagree with bush you hate America so why don't you leave"

"If you agree with Chazev you must love Venezuela and hate America so leave".


:rofl:

[Liberal Dose]

More like - If you love it so much, why don't you marry it?

:freak:

[1932]

28. Before Allende was murdered in a Kissinger/Nixon-sponsored coup,

he nationalized the mining industry. He came up with a compensation formula. He decided that a 12% annual return on investment was a fair profit for the foreign-owned companies. One company had only been in Chile for a year and lost money, so they made money off the purchase. But the biggest company had been in Chile for years and had made billions of dollars on a tiny capital investment. They got no compensation. An american corporate lawyer said about the situation: "we used to be the fuckers in Chile and now we're the fuckee."

So I think that's the US standard for 'thug.' If you're seeking justice for your citizens at the cost of a private American corporation's profit, you're a thug.

[wtmusic]

40. Xcuse, but the thought of an American corporation

having to play by the rules of a foreign government (instead of moving in and acting like they make the rules) and getting "outthugged" in the process, just sends me running for the box of tissues :cry:

[1932]

29. Before Allende was murdered in a Kissinger/Nixon-sponsored coup,

he nationalized the mining industry. He came up with a compensation formula. He decided that a 12% annual return on investment was a fair profit for the foreign-owned companies. One company had only been in Chile for a year and lost money, so they made money off the purchase. But the biggest company had been in Chile for years and had made billions of dollars on a tiny capital investment. They got no compensation. An american corporate lawyer said about the situation: "we used to be the fuckers in Chile and now we're the fuckee."

So I think that's the US standard for 'thug.' If you're seeking justice for your citizens at the cost of a private American corporation's profit, you're a thug.

[LWolf]

20. Whatever those "not admirable" qualities might be

are not readily apparent in your link. There's some stuff at the bottom:
<snip>

With respect to domestic policies, critics report that both corruption and crime are rampant.<128><129> They also cite a failing infrastructure and public hospitals.<92> Criticism from Chávez supporters arises from reports that Chávez is not fulfilling his major campaign pledges with respect to labor and land reform.<130><131><132>

Critics have also charged that the Chávez government has engaged in "gigantic fraud" during the 2004 recall referendum.<133> Human rights organizations Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch have documented numerous human rights violations in Venezuela, although these have usually been reports of police misbehaviour and brutality rather than criticism of Chávez's policies.

There's also this, at the beginning of the article; I've bolded the parts that seem other than "thuglike:"

<snip>

As the leader of the "Bolivarian Revolution," Chávez promotes his vision of democratic socialism,<2> Latin American integration, and anti-imperialism. He is also an ardent critic of neoliberal globalization and US foreign policy.<3>

A career military officer, Chávez founded the leftist Fifth Republic Movement after orchestrating a failed 1992 coup d'état against former president Carlos Andrés Pérez. Chávez was elected President in 1998<4> on promises of aiding Venezuela's poor majority, and was reelected in 2000.<5> Domestically, Chávez has launched massive Bolivarian Missions, whose goals are to combat disease, illiteracy, malnutrition, poverty, and other social ills. Abroad, Chávez has acted against the Washington Consensus by supporting alternative models of economic development, and has advocated cooperation among the world's poor nations, especially those in Latin America.

Chávez's reforms have evoked exceptional controversy in Venezuela and abroad, receiving both criticism and praise. Venezuelans are split between those who say he has empowered the poor and stimulated economic growth, and those who say he is autocratic and has mismanaged the economy. Some foreign governments view Chávez as a threat to global oil prices and regional stability, while others welcome his bilateral trade and reciprocal aid agreements.

Regardless of your opinion of his character, or his administration, are you disputing the OPs assertion that he is not a dictator? Were there election problems? Is he less legitimately elected than our own thug-in-chief?

[Bridget Burke]

21. Wikipedia on the origin of "thug"....

Thuggee (or tuggee) (from Hindi thag thief, from Sanskrit sthaga scoundrel, from sthagati to conceal) was an Indian network of secret fraternities sometimes described as the world's first mafia, operating from the 17th century (possibly as early as 13th century) to the 1830s whose members were known as Thugs. This is the origin of the term thug, as many Indian words passed into common English during British Imperial rule of India.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thuggee

Please--find a new word.

[smoogatz]

47. He may be a thug, but...

He appears to be sincerely interested in land reform, feeding and educating the poor, and reducing the power of the World Bank, the U.S. and foreign corporations over the economy and politics of Latin America in general and Venezuala in particular. And those seem like admirable qualities indeed, if he actually intends to follow through.

[pitohui]

9. i agree

i think it's factually correct, but in any case, living in a country where the supreme court picks the leaders i don't think i can be pointing fingers at venezuela

[Susang]

11. Who is this "Chavez"?

}(

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

12. SomeGuyWhoSpeakstheTruthIThink

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

46. He says what I would say

That's all I know

[Balbus]

15. Chavez is just another asshat dictator from a third world country.

That's all the title of this response says. Chavez is just another asshat dictator from a third world country. If you are a person of reason, you'll read it and acknowledge that's all it says. But if you are infected with the hysteria that states no matter what person says anything bad about bush, no matter what prior history in human rights abuse and personal freedom oppression, nobody on Earth will be able to convince you this response's title is just "Chavez is just another asshate dictator from a third world country." For you, this thread title is:

"I don't care what his record is like in the past, he could have raped babies and eaten kittens for all I care, but he said Bush is a dick and therefore he is my best friend in the whole world and I wish I could change my sex so I can carry his baby."

[LynnTheDem]

23. DOntcha hate how them dictators keep getting democratically elected!

Damn!

[Balbus]

39. Chavez is a piece of shit-dictator!

Damn!

[LynnTheDem]

42. ROTFL!!!

Too funny! Get elected, get called "evil" and "piece of shit dictator".

Can't please some people anytime. :rofl:

[Rex]

54. Oh please, you obviously don't know what dictator means.

Wow, the OP was soooooo right about some people here on DU. Kinda scary.

[TheFriedPiper]

24. Nope, still NOT A DICTATOR

maybe an asshat, but most definately NOT A DICTATOR

maybe a decider, but NOT A DICTATOR

maybe a prick like Bush, but still, NOT A DICTATOR

got it yet?

just in case:

CHAVEZ IS NOT A DICTATOR

[1932]

30. A dictator is the person the US puts in place after they undermine the

democratically elected president in places like Iran, Guatemala and Chile and like they tried in Venezuela against Chavez.

[EarthNeedsHope]

34. But he HASN'T done those things

Those are things used to attack him by the US government, baseless charges.

You must remember, Mandela himself was on the US terror list for more than 20 years.

Just because the US calls him evil doesn't make it true.

He got larger applause at the US summitt than any other leader. Is that because the entire world likes "asshat dictators"?

[Balbus]

38. Yeah, I admit I made up the "eaten kittens" part.

[dionysus]

43. i nominate for the most idiotic and ignorant post of the day

[TahitiNut]

50. Well, that's a hotly-contested 'honor' these days.

But it's sure a contender. It's rather amazing that folks choose to be so possessed of an opinion absent objective facts in support of that opinion and in the presence of objective facts contrary to that opinion that they seemingly compensate for the imbalance of evidence with an overabundance of passion driving their repeated ASSertion of that opinion - as though sheer volume and repetition carries weight.

I wish people were as dedicated to their spouses and offspring as they are to opinions apparently picked up at some second-hand sale.

[Wiley50]

71. I just wish people would READ THE SPEECH before Condeming

Try it.
You just might like it

[TahitiNut]

72. I have. I do. Strange that you'd choose my post to make such a reply.

:shrug:

Ready. Shoot. Aim? :rofl:

[never cry wolf]

56. Please peruse this recent article from Common Dreams

"The trouble with all you liberals is that you're anti-American and hate democracy."

Participation in democracy is booming in Venezuela under Chavez. That's partly due to polarization, but also because so many poor people feel empowered enough for the first time to get active in politics. A massive 2005 Latinobarometro poll conducted in 18 Latin American countries showed that Venezuelans are among the top in preference for democracy over all other forms of government, in satisfaction with how their democracy is functioning, and in belief that their country is "totally democratic."

"The oil money never gets to the poor. . . . You must have been paid by Chavez to write what you wrote."

Across Venezuela, it's hard to miss the new investment in public education. Schools are being upgraded in urban and rural areas and are required to offer free breakfasts and lunches, arts, music and after-school activities. Unlike the U.S., these are well-funded mandates. Illiteracy has been virtually wiped out, according to UNESCO, thanks to adult education that has penetrated the poorest neighborhoods.

In poor communities, federally-subsidized stores called "mercals" sell food at half the market price. In the capital of Caracas, thousands of government-funded soup kitchens offer free lunches every weekday to the indigent; our delegation was headquartered in a church that served 150 free lunches per day. Across the country, new housing is being built to replace shantytown "ranchos" that so many Venezuelans live in.

Thousands of free ("Barrio Adentro") medical clinics have been built inside neighborhoods that never had doctors before -- so many clinics that you can spot them from the highway. These are staffed largely by doctors from Cuba; in return, Cuba receives Venezuelan oil. When we asked a community leader how local residents reacted to the Cuban doctors, he explained that most Venezuelan doctors won't serve in poor barrios: "People in our community don't care whether the doctors are French, German, Canadian, Mexican or Cuban -- as long as they're here to help."


more---> http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0706-32.htm

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

18. Chavez and Malcolm X will be having a blast in Heaven when the CIA

figures out how to make it happen.

[killbotfactory]

19. Pat Robertson says he should be killed!

That's good enough proof for me!

[LynnTheDem]

22. LOL!!! Brilliant!

And no, President Chavez is not, never has been, a dictator.

[leftchick]

26. Hugo Chavez is a Bolivarian

<snip>

Hugo Chavez is a Bolivarian.

Americans over the age of forty ought to remember Simon Bolivar. Until Americans turned against all people’s movements in Latin America (and the world), Simon Bolivar was given his due in every American history text as the father of Latin American democracy.

There is no stronger advocate of democracy and the principles of Simon Bolivar in the contemporary world than Hugo Chavez.

There is no greater proof of America’s hypocrisy than the undeniable fact that our government twice attempted and twice failed to overthrow the president of Venezuela. There is no greater testament to the character of Hugo Chavez than the fact that he has not sold out under unimaginable pressure.

Place yourself in the sizable shoes of Hugo Chavez. You have withstood two attempts on your presidency, in violation of every tenet of international law, and now you face an American president who refuses to denounce a call for your assassination.

Would you continue to ship Venezuelan oil to American ports as Hugo Chavez has?

http://www.dissidentvoice.org/Aug05/Random0827.htm

[Donald Ian Rankin]

27. High praise indeed.

No, Chavez isn't a dictator; moreover, he still has a democratic mandate, although the methods he uses to maintain it are not wholly legitimate.

The same is true of, among others, Ahmadinejad (ish), P.W.Botha (before his retirement), Bush, Mugabe (ish), Lubashenko (ish) Olmert, Putin - none of them are dictators. That doesn't mean they're good leaders.

That said, I don't think Chavez is as bad as most of those. If he were to die of a heart attack tomorrow, I think his legacy would contain more positive than negative. I dislike him because a) he's a self-aggrandising fool, many of whose policies are clearly geared more towards making himself look good and attracting personal publicity than to benefiting Venezuela, and b) because I think his -as yet untested - commitment to democracy appears to be weak, and I worry than he will use increasingly bad means to hang on to power.

But no, he's not a dictator - certainly not yet.

[oc2002]

32. It irritates me when a so called JOURNALIST say CHavez is a dictator

It shows just what a bunch of freaking fakes they are.

[Wilber_Stool]

33. Chavez, and those like him, will put an end to our illegle imigration

problem.
The best way to stop immigration from the south is to improve their economies to the point that people don't want to leave. It's simple. This will also stop outsourcing by raising wages to the point where moving factories is impractical.
The only weapon needed to win the next world war is a strong economy.

[Virginia Dare]

68. You've hit the nail on the head...

and this is exactly why he scares the shit out of the corporate overlords, taking away their cheap labor is high on their worst nightmare lists, as is wiping out debt, another thing Chavez is committed to.

[earth mom]

35. Love it! Thanks!

The freepers abound around here...simply amazing! Haven't they anything better to do? Like go kiss more rethuglican ass? :eyes:

[UTUSN]

37. Being anti-ahole-CHAVEZ does not equate with being anti-LEFT

or with being a freeper. He has already exceeded the constitutional term limits, OR is that a NEW "constitution"? Let's see if he relinquishes power when the current "term" is up. Yeah-yeah, his and Fidel's idolaters here often ask, "Why SHOULDN'T he stay in power if THE PEOPLE want him there?" Yeah-yeah.

[mopinko]

48. this thread does not make sense. it is full of holes.

seems i have successfully put a good percentage of the DU asshats on ignore. yeah.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

51. It's a good topic, ain't it?

It's like a barometer.

[mopinko]

52. yup

that and the illinois 6th district primary race have helped me filter out a lot of garbage.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

57. illinois 6th district?

I'm out of the loop on that one.

[mopinko]

60. it's over now

it was in march. but it was pda, dfa v dccc. it was ugly. really ugly.

[Liberal Dose]

63. It helps me separate the wheat from the chaff

weeds out the moles, too.... :D

[bvar22]

49. Chavez is NOT a dictator!

He wasn't merely elected.
He was elected while running AGAINST the incumbent corporate owned, right wingParty of the RICH WHITE Plantation Owners that had COMPLETE control of the Venezuelan Media and Voting process.
In South America, when you can turn out enough votes to beat the INCUMBENT, Right Wing, White, Party of the RICH, Owners of the Media,....you truly have a mandate from The People.

SEE: Election Mexico, 2006.

[eallen]

53. George Bush is not a dictator either.

When political discussion boils down to "is a dictator or not," these two are pretty much identical.

On the other hand, Castro <i>is</i> a dictator.

[Liberal Dose]

58. I hate America and want to enlist in Chavez AhmadinejadCastroKimJongIl

You're right. It doesn't fit. :rofl: :applause:

ERROR: Posting error

Long subjects require periodic spaces

[cali]

59. Of course he's not a dictator.

That said, there are both admirable things about him and his administration, and less than admirable aspects to him. Personally, I still find his remark about bushco as crude and heavy handed as bushco's remark about the axis of evil.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

62. The Axis of Evil! OF COURSE!

Chavez's overblown rhetoric isn't even original! Bush did the same thing BEFORE!

[Virginia Dare]

66. I think perhaps it was meant to be...n/t

[Zodiak]

61. That is what bothers me, the inability to state simple fact

Chavez is not a dictator (nor a blight on his people, but he is justifiably paranoid)

Kim Jong Il is a dictator (and a jerk, and a bad dresser)

Ahmedjahad (sp) is not a dictator (an asshat, yes...but an asshat not proven to be after nukes)

Bush is not ostensibly a dictator (if it is proven he stole elections, he is one)

Saddam was a dictator appointed by the US (and a jerk)

The Shah was a dictator appointed by the US (and a big ass jerk)

Pinochet was a dictator appointed by the US (you guessed...another jerk)

Musharraf is a dictator (and an ally...sorta)

Putin is not a dictator (but has played one in real life, and might like to again)

Noriega was a dictator (and had a face only a mother could love)

Opinions in parentheses...facts are not

[Imperialism Inc.]

64. I have yet to see an intelligent person who holds that opinion.

I've seen one issue posters (the one issue is Chavez) who are almost certainly freeper trolls and a handful (or less) of supposed DLC groupies.

Disagreeing with his policies I can understand. Disagreeing with his claims about new coup attempts in the works, or buying new weapons or his inflammatory language at the UN I can also understand. But anyone who thinks he is a dictator is either delusional, stupid or a freeper. Well, that is the same as being delusional or stupid really. Sorry for being redundant.

[ButterflyBlood]

65. No, he is not

But he seems to have no problem coddling dictators.

[Virginia Dare]

67. And neither do we...

so let's not hold that against him.

[ButterflyBlood]

69. I don't, Bush does and I hate Bush too

So I'm being consistent.

[Virginia Dare]

70. Agreed, but I was using the royal "we"...n/t

[Phrogman]

73. If you haven't already, please watch this video:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5832390545689805144

"The Revolution will not be Televised"

Go Hugo!