I cannot fucking believe people on this forum would trash Chavez

[BushOut06]

The man speaks the truth. He says what we have all been saying. Hell, he says what the whole fucking world has been saying. He told it like it is, he called out Bush for the lying sack of shit that he is, and suddenly the DLC is bending over backwards trying to defend Bush.

The only thing the Chavez bashers have to go on is a bunch of right-wing anti-communist propaganda, who would have you believe that Chavez is turning Venezuela into a Soviet-style military dictatorship. They trot out all these "human rights" reports without putting any of those into context. Fact is, Bush and his co-horts tried to overthrow the democratically elected government of Venezuela, and now some of those plotters are finding themselves in prison. Those are your "political prisoners". Fact is, citizens and the media in Venezuela enjoy freedom of speech, freedom of religion, and many of the freedoms that we enjoy.

The one good thing about this year is that we're now finding out who the true progressives in this country are.

[gully]

1. People bash Democrats here, c'mon.

One doesn't have to agree with every statement made by Chavez to be a "true progressive."

[LoZoccolo]

I like that Ann Richards quote in your signature, by the way. n/t

[LostinVA]

64. There is a difference between not agreeing and condemning

Him as a dictator, etc., usually with VERY questionable sources. I believe that's the OP's point, and I think it's a valid one.

[Rainscents]

2. AMEN!

[eleny]

3. You never really know who is posting here

We have lots of trolls. Nudging, always nudging to try and affect opinion.

[CAG]

17. Yes, anyone who would DARE back up that RW nut Charlie Rangel

is just a RW troll.

A dislike of * doesn't automatically mean the person (Chavez in this case) is a genius.

[eleny]

31. The original poster and I never commented on Rangel

But since you brought him up, Rangel could take a lesson from Senator Harkin today.

And yes, there are a lot of trolls here at DU. Some right wing and some not - but trolls nevertheless.

One last thing - I never said Chavez is a genius. But you knew that. Building straw men is a waste of your time. Chavez may well be pretty smart the way he took the wind out of W's sails yesterday. And stole his thunder to boot. The genius factor can be left to the historians of tomorrow when we're all long gone. I'd say Chavez has a lot of savvy.

[Tin Man]

72. BTW, Harkin now backing-off his earlier remarks

http://www.radioiowa.com/gestalt/go.cfm?objectid=3B684905-1D6F-48B5-B5C3D354BE011BAD&dbtranslator=local.cfm

[katinmn]

105. Somebody got to him. Remember Durbin's tearful apology

for calling Bush's torture policies Nazi-like? This was after senators viewed the photos and video of abuse at Abu Ghraib, including the sodomizing of a child.

Do they have paid thugs - real thugs -- going around threatening senators and reps? One has to wonder.

[Nye Bevan]

86. "Trolls, nudging, always nudging to try and affect opinion"

What exactly does this mean?

Undercover GOP operatives (who are masquerading as Democrats) are posting here that they don't like Chavez? In the hope that this will somehow convince a bunch of DUers to vote repuke in the November elections? If so, I would suggest that this is probably not the most productive use of their time.

[NotGivingUp]

88. yep...i was thinking the same thing

[lildreamer316]

134. FINALLY.

THANK you eleny.
I didn't want to get into a discussion of this fact, but it is so very very true. Thanks for stating it unequivically. I get so irritated that ppl waste their time here arguing with obvious plants; that I don't bother to join the discussion anymore; I just read and stay in my groups. Can't wait until after the election when we can have the place back.
Sorry....I'll shut up about this now. No sense in starting a war.

[Buzz Clik]

4. Believe it. Read the threads. No apologies coming.

[Erika]

5. 90% of the world hate W, that is now very well known.

Chavez outlined that carefully. W is the reason we are hated. That's been showcased

Rangel and Pelosi pointed out that we'll take care of our own despots, thank you.

[nini]

6. Guess I'll fall in line and react the way you expect me too

:eyes:


Personally, I like and dislike what he did. His message was on target, the time and place was not.

I don't have to agree with everyone that bashes Bush if I don't agree with the method. Last I heard I still had that right left to do so. Do YOU want to take that away? What would that make you? :shrug:

[BushOut06]

9. Why would you assume that?

I'm voicing my opinion, just like many others have voiced theirs. Just because I voice my disbelief that so many people would be attacking Chavez, doesn't mean that I would friggin take that right away from them. Why would you automatically ask me if I want to take your right to disagree simply because I don't share the same opinion?

[dorktv]

152. I agree with what you say. I simply feel that his stating what he did

was in the wrong place to use such language. He could have been forceful and yet not used such crude terminology.

[Cha]

7. Believe it dude.

I'm just not one of 'em.

[Cleita]

8. People do have a problem with understanding that

Soviet style communism is different compared to socialist communism. Thanks for your perspective it makes sense. I have been having problems trying to figure out why Chavez is being pinpointed as a tinfoil dictator and yet the real tinfoil dictators like Augusto Pinnochet were never selected out as such during their regimes.

[USA_1]

10. CHAVEZ IS THE GREATEST!!!!!!!!!

[The_Casual_Observer]

11. People are frightened by such confrontational language. Chavez

doesn't behave the way people have been taught to expect in the US. The press loves to dismiss guys like Chavez, but Chavez isn't going away.

[NotGivingUp]

89. You are so absolutely right.

[barb162]

101. I was noticing he was acting buffoonish

He didn't act or sound diplomatic. He did no favors to himself or Venezuela with that display. About, but not quite as bad, as Krushchez taking off his shoe at the UN and banging it on the table in the 1950s

[LoZoccolo]

12. Oh spare me.

"Outraged that people disagree with me" threads get tiresome.

P.S.: Funny that Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, and the Columbia Journalism Review are now right-wing anti-communist propaganda.

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Cleita]

15. Why would we be arrested?

[Name removed]

18. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[FUGW]

36. But I will be deleted here for less. You posted because you disagreed.

[cliss]

14. Bushout, I'm going to agree with you.

I agree with Hugo Chavez. I agree with his policies, with his statements.

I always have.

+ I like the man.

[snowbear]

16. Did you even read response #3 from eleny?

Because you didn't respond to her...

And yet, her comments answered your question to a "T".

Of course ----- if you weren't already aware of that by now...

Dayum -- I don't know what to tell ya!

[BushOut06]

22. I read her post

Wasn't aware that I should respond to each & every response, I'd be here all night if I did that. She was right, what more do you want me to say?

[snowbear]

24. Ah geez BushOut...

Maybe you just need a hug?

[BushOut06]

27. I always need a hug!

:)

[eleny]

42. In that case....

:pals:

[jhrobbins]

19. I may believe part of what Chavez says...

(the truth is, I really don't trust politicians in general), but I don't think that the polemic was appropriate for the venue. Maybe it's my Southern upbringing, but I think there is an appropriate language to address the world and he didn't do it. I agree with Clinton about this - it was just not appropriate.

[BushOut06]

25. Chavez certainly got his point across, didn't he?

The UN is filled with examples of various world leaders pulling stunts to make their point. Case in point, Kruschev banging his show against the podium. If Chavez had merely gone to the UN and gave a routine speech, it would have been news that day but then quickly forgotten. Guess what? Most people may disagree with his wording, but they're still talking about his speech!

[jhrobbins]

82. So? People are still talking about Adolf Hitler as well...

probably as much as when he was destroying western Europe, but that doesn't mean much in my view. Perhaps you subscribe to the caveat that any publicity is good publicity - I don't. (Also, I am sorry to beat this Adolf Hitler saw once again - it seems like anyone wanting to make a point about evil these days uses this reference, but it works here for me.) I just don't believe that if you want to generate a discourse, that you first spit in your opponents eye. Perhaps he doesn't want a discourse with us.

[rman]

99. So? People are still talking about Ghandi...

[rman]

98. Chavez got applause and laughter from the UN audience,

not frowns; they did not seem to think what Chavez said was inappropriate.

[jhrobbins]

141. Well there you have it then - if the UN is smiling then I must be wrong

because they are the arbiters of all things good and upright.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

20. Why?

Quite a few people here never liked him to begin with - some for legitimate reasons, and some for silly or ridiculous reasons.

Quite a few here, like myself, find many of his policies to be enlightened and beneficial, yet deplore his penchant for silly hyperbole and ranting.

And quite a few people here with no opinion one way or the other about Chavez are not particularly happy about having any statesman calling anyone the Devil, for a variety of reasons.

And no, he does not say "what we all have been saying." Need I point you to one of the thousand-odd threads deploring Bush-Hitler comparisons?

As for your insinuation that no true progressive would take issue with Chavez or his statements, who the fuck are YOU to determine who is progressive and who isn't? In my book, the true progressives out there are the ones concentrating on the 2006 elections instead of racking up 100+ posts on this pointless, bullshit issue. But I'm not about to fucking force that belief on anybody else, including you. I happen to disagree with you and what you're doing, but for fuck's sake I wouldn't insult your credentials as a progressive. If I could offer you one piece of advice, it'd be to point your rhetorical AK-47 at the Republicans who are ruining this country, instead of your comrades on DU.

And I think this will be my final post on this ridiculous time-waste of a subject.

[CAG]

21. I can't believe people in this forum all of a sudden think Charlie Rangel

and Nancy Pelosi are RW neocons just because they took 5 minutes out of their last 6 years to say that * isn't the devil.

What's next; Noam Chomsky says Dick Cheney isn't Pol Pot, and then Chomsky is just right of Mussolini????

[BushOut06]

23. I'm not attacking Rangel or Pelosi for their statements

I'm questioning some of the posts I've seen on this forum basically calling Chavez a tin-horn dictator who locks up anyone who speaks out against him.

While I may disagree with Rangel and Pelosi, I do understand where they are coming from. It's an election year, and perception is everything. I also understand that statements like Chavez made tend to have a rallying effect, no matter who they're directed against. It's the classic "it's our fight, not yours" thing.

Same thing tends to happen whenever discussion of Cuba and Fidel Castro comes up.

[malaise]

62. I love both Chavez and Fidel

That said the RW media known as MSM were about to turn Dems into 'appeasers' over Chavez. That 'talking point' was dead before prime time yesterday. Of course Chavez was correct but there's an election to win and Dems have to stay on point and not give Rethugs and their media the offensive.

Sometimes political expediency is neccesary. The Devil description was perfect and it isn't going away any time soon but the Rethugs cannot link it to the Dems now.

[davidinalameda]

35. you can't?

how long have you been around here?

if anyone deviates from the commonly accepted "wisdom", they're crucified

some posters on here turn on people like Pelosi in a heartbeat

they enjoy the bloodletting

[malaise]

69. Since 04

just before the election and this time I'll be crushed if Dems don't win.

[greguganus]

79. Some eat their own here...

...and others choose the circular firing squad. :banghead:

[davidinalameda]

110. I know

in spite of that, I still stay around

[jhrobbins]

142. Well, I am new here and I thought this was a site for Democrats...

that had something to say abouthow to make this country a better place by espousing the principles of the Democratic party and how this administration was the worst in history (to paraphrase Helen Thomas). Instead, it seems to be a site where I am excoriated for saying I love this country and that I am not fond of those that would do us ill. If I am wrong, please let me know.

[scarletwoman]

38. Anyone who has spent the last 6 years NOT saying that * is the devil is no

ally of mine, nor a defender of our country.

For six long nightmarish years we've watched our country and our Constitution being trashed by a criminal gang of amoral thieves and con artists -- and waited in vain for the leaders of the Democratic Party to stand up to the bullies and the liars and call them out for the rotten criminals that they are.

But, noooooo. It's all been about preserving the privileges of the Ruling Class/corporatocracy and protecting the status quo.

So fuck 'em all. They've stood by and let these depraved assholes destroy everything that made this country something to be proud of. They are pathetic enablers.

sw

[cali]

59. Then I guess I'm not your ally, or in your eyes, a defender of this nation

Though I refuse to return the favor. I don't use words like devil to describe human beings, however awful I may think them. I'm stingy when it comes to applying the word evil. I don't think either term is generally useful or describes much of anything at all. I don't compare human beings to vermin, amd I'm not fond of hyperbole. Language is too important to me. And just because of that, I'm your enemy? Interesting.
BTW, your broad brush painting of all elected dems as collaborationists, is just wrong. Yes, more of them damn well should be more vocal, but many have been fighting the good fight.

[scarletwoman]

81. Nowhere in my post are the words "evil" "vermin" or "collaborationists" --

Nor did I "broad brush... all elected dems" -- my exact words were: "the leaders of the Democratic Party". I also very specifically used the word "enablers" (NOT "collaborationists") due to its aptness in describing (in the classic 12-Step sense) a very particular role within a dysfunctional system.

And speaking of "hyperbole"... After expressing your disapproval of words and terms that did not, in fact, appear anywhere in my post, you close with this rather overheated rhetorical flourish: "And just because of that, I'm your enemy?"

I mean, come on... :eyes:

Language is very important to me also, and I take great care in choosing my words. Your response takes issue with terms that I did not actually use, and misses altogether the point I was making. I do not find it a very honest argument.

sw

[cali]

90. Now that was just funny

Comparoing my post with yours in terms of hyperbole when your post starts out "Anyone who has spent the last 6 years NOT saying that * is the devil is no ally of mine, nor a defender of our country." No, you didn't use the word vermin, nor did I say you did. You did use words that were in the general vain I was referring to.

[scarletwoman]

94. The word is "vein" not "vain", btw - since you care so much about language

Yes, my post title was a conscious and deliberate riff on the "bush is the devil" theme that has inspired so many furiously flying fingers on keyboards over the past few days. I, like many other writers on DU, will often use an eye-catching subject line in order to entice readers to read the rest of my post.

I used it as a metaphoric starting point for making the case in the body of my post that we have lived through all these years of the criminal and radical takeover of our government with essentially no meaningful resistance being mounted by the leaders of the supposed "opposition party". It was a lament on witnessing the lack of "speaking truth to power" on the part of these leaders.

Perhaps mistakenly, I trusted that readers would be capable of following the segue from my figurative opening statement to the literal argument presented in the body of my post.

Obviously, this particular rhetorical device was ineffective in your case.

sw

[cali]

147. Oh, for pete's sake

I made a typo and I carelessly put vain instead of vein. Only those who are really small minded play that game. We've crossed paths enough for you to know, I'm hardly illiterate, but you're right, your rhetorical device was ineffective, along with the rest of your screech.

[scarletwoman]

155. Yeah, it was a cheap shot -- usually I wouldn't stoop so low.

However, all your responses have essentially been complaints about the wording and phrasing in my initial post, and nothing about the substance of the point I was making -- to wit: that throughout all these long hideous years of the bush regime's radical extremism, the Democratic leadership has behaved as if this were merely politics as usual; rather than clearly and forcibly calling them out for their profound betrayals of our Constitution, their destruction of civilized norms, and their general criminality -- none of that apparently mattered to you so much as the fact that I used the word "devil" in my subject line.

Yours was a shallow response, and I -- not to my credit, I admit -- responded in kind.

sw

[Liberal Dose]

75. Yes! What you said. Thank you.

:applause:

[LostinVA]

65. Straw men again -- the OP said nothing about Rangel or Pelosi

You must be more wily than that....

[davidinalameda]

26. this is the same Chavez who cozies up to Iranian theocrats

who want to impose their twisted version of Islam on the entire world?

you are judged the company you keep and right now, Chavez isn't doing too good in that area

[BushOut06]

30. How is Iran trying to "impose" Islam on the world?

To my knowledge, Iran hasn't invaded any foreign countries. Sure, they've said that the world would be better off under Islam - so what, Bush says we'd be better off as Christians. Ahmadinejad may have some rather peculiar personal beliefs, but as far as I know, he's not basing his foreign policies off them - the same can NOT be said for our own president.

[davidinalameda]

34. so you deny that they fund groups like Hezbollah which want to set up

Islamic theocracies or some of the Shiite groups in Iraq which wants to introduce shia as the law of the land

peculiar personal beliefs?

killing gay people is a peculiar personal belief?

treating women as chattel is a peculiar personal belief?

you need to read up on how Iran treats its citizens

[LostinVA]

67. That is not what Hezbollah is

[davidinalameda]

109. Wikipedia`

a Shia Islamist organization in Lebanon. It follows a distinct version of Islamic Shia ideology developed by Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini, leader of the Islamic Revolution in Iran.<3><4> The organization began to take shape during the 1982 Lebanon War; on February 16, 1985 Sheik Ibrahim al-Amin publicly declared the group's manifesto, which included three goals: the eradication of Western imperialism in Lebanon, the transformation of Lebanon's multi-confessional state into an Islamic state, and the complete destruction of the state of Israel.<5>. <6> Hezbollah has abandoned the goal of transforming Lebanon into an Islamic republic <7>, but continues to call for the destruction of Israel. Hezbollah has received arms, soldiers, and financial support from Iran, and many other sympathizers <8> and has "operated with Syria's blessing."<7> Hezbollah has grown to an organization which has seats in the Lebanese government, a militia, a radio and a satellite television station, and front programs for social development. <9> Hezbollah's use of violent means to achieve some of their goals has caused some to label it as a terrorist organization, while others consider the violence to have been recriprocal to external agression and a legitimate form of Jihad.

[katinmn]

111. wikipedia is hardly non-partisan! Use it for looking up plant species,

not anything to do with government or politics.

[davidinalameda]

112. so Hezbollah wants to set up a multi-cultural open society

in which everyone can live freely?

where do I sign up?

[katinmn]

122. Oh really? Link please.

[davidinalameda]

133. I asked if they do

since you seem to know so much about them, why don't you enlighted the rest of us

thanks

[Name removed]

138. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[rman]

96. Kindof like how the US does the same...

...Did the same to Iran before the war on terror, and still doe to Saudi Arabia and Pakistan.
"Cozying up to theocrats" that is.


BBC News
Wednesday, 30 January, 2002, 18:12 GMT
Pakistan 'not meant to be secular'
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/1792252.stm

Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf has said Pakistan was meant to be an Islamic republic and is certainly not a secular state.
...

[gumby]

28. It's that 'soil' thing.

If you come on U.S. soil and say something 'dirty' about the U.S. then you pooped and soiled your pants.

On the other hand, if you go to 'foreign soil' and say something 'dirty' about the U.S., then you pooped even a bigger load and once again soiled your pants.

Either way, your pants are loaded. You soiled yourself because of the soil you were standing on whenever you say anything that the right-wing disagrees with.... which is just about everything at any time at any place.

I'm thinking Depends slingshots.

[LostinVA]

68. He WAS on foreign/neutral soil, imo

He was at the UNITED NATIONS. He wasn't in New York.

God, I wish the UN was in London or something.

[earth mom]

29. I hear ya and came to the conclusion that DU is infested with freepers.

:puke:

[kiahzero]

32. I cannot fucking believe people on this forum would disagree with me!

Can't they see that I'm fucking perfect and if you don't agree with me you're a tool of the right wing?

(It shouldn't be necessary, but... :sarcasm:)

[SaveElmer]

33. Well any friend of Fidel Castro....

And Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is a friend of mine...

:sarcasm:

[IndianaGreen]

40. And you prefer the mass murderer Bush?

Published on Thursday, September 21, 2006 by CommonDreams.org
Joe Stalin is Alive and Living on Pennsylvania Avenue
by Danny Schechter

They invaded Afghanistan. We invaded Afghanistan. They wiretapped. We wiretapped. They had secret police. We have secret police in the form of contractors and companies like Blackwater.

They used propaganda. We made ours better. They had a party line. We have a party line. Theirs was blatant; ours is less visible.

They were said to want to conquer the world. Now, most of the world says that about us. In the old days, today's neo-cons denounced Communist plans for world domination. Now they have their own.

In the same way that cops often make the best criminals with many believing that many who joined the police would have just as comfortably have signed up with the mafia (and some did both) -- many of the professional anti-communists were just as authoritarian and dogmatic in their instincts.

Back, there were studies of "authoritarian personalities." Among their alleged traits:

1. They travel in tight circles of like-minded people.

2. Their thinking is more likely based on what authorities have told them rather than on their own critical judgment, which results in their beliefs being filled with inconsistencies.

3. They harbor numerous double standards and hypocrisies.

4. They see the world as a dangerous place, with society teetering on the brink of self-destruction from evil and violence, and when their fear conflates with their self-righteousness, they appoint themselves guardians of public morality, or God's Designated Hitters.

http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0921-29.htm

[SaveElmer]

41. Ridiculous...

You can only make these statements by ignoring the comments of Rangel...in typical fashion you ignore the substance of the issue at hand to accuse those you disagree with of a position they never took or implied!

The enemy of my enemy is not always my friend...and I certainly do not want to be friends with the like of Hugo Chavez.

[killbotfactory]

48. Bush killed more innocent people than any of them

Castro, Ahmadinehad, or even Saddam.

[rman]

97. Any friend of Nelson Mandela...

Well, if nothing else, Fidel is friends with both.

[Seeking Serenity]

106. Don't forget Kim Jung Il. (n/t)

[IndianaGreen]

37. Many Germans embraced or remained silent about the Nazis

just as many Americans are allowing our Republic to be destroyed by Bush's tyranny.

Chavez is a modern day Churchill that is warning the world as to the new danger posed by unrestrained American militarism and hegemony.

[Evergreen Emerald]

39. I am sick of name-calling adolescent foreign policy

Chavez could have spoken the truth without resorting to Bush-style antics. Bush calls names, ridicules, and refuses to speak to foreign leaders.

Chavez did not have to resort to that. It takes away from the message within the US--the world loved to see the pompous ass put in his place. We did see first hand how much we are hated in the world. Stony silence for Bush, standing Ovation and laughter for Chavez.

[question everything]

43. In 1960 Castro spoke in the UN and called JFK names

unfortunately I cannot find the exact quotes... was on the news last night but do not remember which station..

I wonder how DUers would have reacted to that speech.

[IndianaGreen]

45. No, what Fidel said was to point out that Kennedy and Nixon

were spoiled children of wealth, "niños bitongos" was the actual quote. Fidel was discussing why the elites were the ones that controlled the economic and political systems of a country, despite being in the minority.

It was a great speech, and that was only one sentence!

[question everything]

52. Nixon came from lower class, though

And the link given below gives the quote about Kennedy, but not Nixon, and it is more than just one sentence.

[rman]

95. Obviously Nixon became elite

"Elite" as in "power elite" is not so much a matter of attitude, but rather one of power.

[killbotfactory]

50. This speech?

http://www.marxists.org/history/cuba/archive/castro/1960/09/26.htm

[question everything]

51. Yes, thank you

"If Kennedy were not an illiterate and ignorant millionaire"

Nothing new under the sun. Another military man who came to power through a military coup, at least once, comes to the UN and insults his hosts.

[bread_and_roses]

61. Hosts? I thought the UN was considered "International" ground? (n/t)

[IndianaGreen]

85. It was Batista that came to power through a military coup, not Fidel

You are showing the same level of ignorance about Latin America that Fidel said Kennedy and Nixon had. Unfortunately, millions of other Americans are equally ignorant about the world in which they live.

[killbotfactory]

137. Those uppity latin americans

Yeah, so we support death squads, dictators, and overthrow democracies for pure profit motives, get over it.

Fidel was running for office when Batista had his little US-backed coup. That doesn't mean he should go start a revolution or something. What nerve.

[deaniac21]

93. He didn't insult. The speech was over 4 hours long. Everyone

was asleep by the end.

[katinmn]

117. Yes, and American leaders portrayed Castro as a backwards

South American who kept chickens in his hotel room!

My dad and I were talking about it the other night. He knew they pulled out the propaganda guns even then.

[alittlelark]

44. I have also been shocked by some of the trashing

Chavez is rapidly turning a 2nd world country into a 1st world one. The majority of people in his country LOVE him. The HARD RIGHT wing media in the country trashes him - rarely are there repercussions.

He denounces privatization and the World Bank. He is populist that most of the world seems to love.

What's the problem?

He calls a spade a spade... so what?

[and-justice-for-all]

46. Im diggin Hugo....

...He did what everyone on this forum would do if given the opportunity and the man is right. The devil was there and those nations which the US has planted itself in are actually no longer welcomed and need to leave.

Iraq is a disaster, Israel is arming and training kurds in Northern Iraq, Lebanon is crippled and the rest of the middle east is pissed. The imperialist agenda will NOT be fulfilled, the GOP hates Chavez as they do any other country that will not bow to the GOP/US.

[bobbie]

54. If Bush isn't the Devil

Then the Devil doesn't exist.

[orleans]

47. HEY! if trashing chavez is good enough for pelosi & rangel....

:sarcasm:


naw...fuck that!

i was pissed pelosi & rangel said anything about it.

it's the old: "we can call bush names but you can't"
or
"you can only call bush names when you're not here"
or
"we don't want you agreeing with us that he is an asshole"
or
"you aren't suppose to be hitting hard in MY backyard"


i couldn't believe them

and hanity was talking about what a couple of hypocrites they are

yeah, let's set ourselves up for some more bullshit.

(it really pissed me off. who's the next thug in pelosi's mind? maybe we are)

[geek tragedy]

49. Chavez is every bit the juvenile punk that Bush is.

Yeah, calling other heads of states alcoholics and the devil. That's sooooooooo enlightened and constructive.

Please, he's a leftwing Limpballs when he gets in front of a microphone.

[U4ikLefty]

53. I belive he only called ONE leader an alcoholic & the devil

and he was correct. Well, not really correct...actually Cheney is the devil & Bu$h is his minion, but you get the picture.

[diamidue]

55. I get the picture.

Bush can murder and torture tens of thousands, but let's save our venom for Chavez just for speaking his mind. ???

I love Chavez.

[geek tragedy]

56. Oh, I have plenty of venom for Bush, who belongs on trial.

I certainly don't think that Chavez should be put on trial. He's nowhere near as bad as Bush in terms of war crimes, threats to liberties, etc.

But, he's still a clown. Being a clown isn't as bad as being a war criminal, of course.

[LostinVA]

70. Bingo -- crazy, huh?

[seabeyond]

66. i was explaining chavez to sons yesterday. said seems the same as bush

only the other extreme. chavez wants to help the poor at the expense of the middle class and rich....
bush wants to help the rich at the expense of middle class and poor

both have that immaturity of calling people names.

i did a lot of research on chavez a handful of months ago and i am not impressed with the man. i dont trust the man and he feels a lot like bush to me. a lot like bush

[Name removed]

57. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[and-justice-for-all]

58. Thats a shitty statement....

...I dont love Chavez, I liked his speech and thought it was a nice window of opportunity that should have been had by Dems. But what did they do? shit all over it and for what??? Pelosi and Rangel did not have to completly disown the points of the speech, they could have found much better words besides 'Thug'. Rangel sounds like he was lickin Shrubs nuts, What they fuck is that all about??

I think the only ones that were paid to make retorical comments about Chavez was Pelosi and Rangel; They need to be removed from the Democratic Party to the Liberman republican ass lickin' party. It was more of a disgrace to hear Pelosi and Rangel's "Dont pick on republicans" banter! When is the pity party? Ugh!

Chavez would not have to say such words if Shrub was Impeached 2 years ago like he should have been. But we have a ball less Government who only is concerned with the wealthy, Corperate interest, Domination, Warmongering, Fearmongering and Imperialism. And yet, people sit around with their thumb up their ass wondering what the fuck happened or they dont see any US atrocities AT ALL!!

[Disturbed]

60. Nancy Pelosi called him a thug.

I wonder how many here agree with her?

I sure don't!

Yeah, she has a right to her opinion. I guess she believes that.

I don't believe that Busholini is the devil because I don't believe in such things but I do believe that he is an ignorant, arrogant,war mongering ASSHOLE!

[and-justice-for-all]

149. I dont believe in the 'Devil' in a spiritual sence....

..I am an Atheist, I will however use the term metaphoricaly.

"I do believe that he is an ignorant, arrogant,war mongering ASSHOLE!" I agree with that statement...

[Tin Man]

74. Agreed. Too much action on Chavez threads.

And people keep starting new threads that offer nothing new on the subject.
I smell provocateurs.

Election season + Pukes polling badly + Deep pockets = Blogger "false flag" operations

[LostinVA]

63. Mind-blowing, huh?

It never ceases to amaze -- and appall -- me.

[NNN0LHI]

71. He says what our Democratic leaders should be saying

And because they are "in too deep" themselves they can't say anything.

Thats the truth.

Don

[mogster]

73. Everybody needs criticism

It is well, not wrong, that people have different opinions.
Else, I agree with the points in your post. The myths about Chavez are many and poorly underbuilt.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

76. I find it depressing that there are so many people who fall for him.

He's a very skillful self-publicist (often using state resources to do so), but his attatchment to democracy is fairly clearly only skin deep.

The president of a rich country donating free oil (belonging to his people, not to him personally) to a poorer country is admirable; the president of a poor country donating his people's resources free to a richer one isn't. It's also striking that such moves are always noted as coming from "Chavez" rather than "Venezuela".

State-paid doctors being required to remind their patients that they owe their treatement to Chavez is not something acceptable in a Democracy. Nor is the degree of interference in the media Chavez has produced.

The fact that he once launched a military coup against an (admittedly deeply unpleasant) elected president is something to many people are too keen to overlook.


It must be admitted (as it often isn't) that Chavez currently has a democratic mandate (albeit one not entirely obtained through legitimate means). However, I think that there's fairly strong evidence that he won't leave power freely as and when that ceases to be the case; his record certainly doesn't entitle him to any benefit of the doubt on that question. He's a cheap opportunist more motivated by staying in power than the interests of his people - far from unusual among world leaders, but while he's no worse than many he's no better, either, despite what many DUers think.

[robcon]

77. Excellet post, D I R. Chavez is a goon, a budding Mussolini.

n/t

[Donald Ian Rankin]

80. I think that's an exaggeration, to be honest.

I don't like the man one little bit, but I don't expect to see him end up as bad as Mussolini was. "A budding Castro", possibly?

[Cleita]

92. You apparently have nothing to back those statements or

you would have posted them, however, they do fit our President Bush. I think you targeted the wrong President.

[Cleita]

91. The few who own everything in Venezuela don't like him because

he took away land and revenues from them to give to the poor. Maybe it's not the way an American president would go about redistributing wealth but in South American countries that have gone centuries with the few very wealthy having a stranglehold on the economies and governments of those nations through bribery and other underhanded methods, it's probably the only way he could do it.

The patron system is very well entrenched in South America. At the top are all the wealthy landowners who run everything and own everything. All the money that is generated flows out of the country into Swiss bank accounts, including foreign aid meant to help the countries' infrastructure, further impoverishing those countries. Chavez is trying to reverse that and maybe his methods seem strong armed and dictatorial to many who don't really understand the politics of those places and of course the disenfranchised rich classes don't like having what they think is theirs removed from them.

Chavez is far from being a dictator though. He has been elected twice. Yes, he staged a coup to overthrow a corrupt government, with a real dictator, but was elected to office after in a free election. He didn't seize the presidency like Augusto Pinochet in Chile. In spite of coup and assassination attempts on him, even one by our government, he got elected to a second term. As long as the people like him they will probably elect him, which may make him look like a dictator again in American eyes, but isn't.

[buddhamama]

78. DU is not Bush's America

We are allowed to speak our minds (within reason of course) and to hold differing opinions.

The only problem i have with the Chavez detractors is their mis-characterization of Him as a Dictator. He was democratically elected. He is not a dictator. And, I wish anyone who states otherwise would learn the meaning of "dictator".

[Donald Ian Rankin]

84. Agreed.

I strongly dislike Chavez, largely because I think that he is likely to turn out to be a bad thing in the long run, but it must be admitted that he was democratically elected, retains popular support, and that if he were to drop dead tomorrow his legacy would be more positive than negative.

[ContraBass Black]

83. "I cannot fucking believe people on this forum would trash Chavez"

Hello, and welcome to GD.

[NotGivingUp]

87. I'm so glad you started this thread. My sentiments exactly. I really was

astounded at the many people here at DU rising up against somebody who spoke out the truth about george w bush and what he is doing to this country. it's absolutely pitiful. it made me feel sick to my stomach because i realize we have even less chance to take this country back.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

100. This is nationalism for you.

:shrug:

[Snivi Yllom]

139. soooo Chavez's nationalism = good, US nationalism criticizing Chavez = bad

Just to clarify where I think you stand.

[William769]

102. FUCK CHAVEZ (EL DIABLO )AND ANYONE THAT SUPPORTS THAT ASSHOLE!

How's that?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

103. Sure are mad at him, aren't you?

Why is that, pray tell?

[Snivi Yllom]

104. I cannot believe so many take the side of Chavez over US democrats

Hugo is not worth throwing yourself under the bus for.

That so many are so willing to jump to the defense of a foreign leader who attacks the President in a personal manner. Bush is a disaster and deserves heaps of criticism. But there is a point where politics get put aside and you stand up for the home team.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

107. "stand up for the home team"

Great. Football analogies. I think they used that one on South Park a few years ago on why we should support the President.

Like I said, Nationalism.

[rinsd]

119. And ignoring that very real and extremely prevalent mentality...

...is politically fool hardy at best, an ignorance about people and their relationships to each other and the growing social circles they have at worst.

Someone on topday posted a thread talking about how he wanted to punch someone out because they degraded Democrats to the point that his son physically restrained him. Every single day bashing of Democrats happenes here on DU yet we don't get that mad...why?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

124. I'm going to have to say it's because...

everybody knows the criticism of certain Democrats is valid.

Frankly, Pelosi and Rangel sounded like a couple of freepers.

Pelosi was repeating this "Chavez is a dictator" propaganda that is in no way progressive, straight from the WH.

Rangel pulled this "America- love it or leave it" shit.

Now, I'm willing to forgive and forget. I'd like an apology but I'm not expecting any. I wouldn't put up with this bullshit if a republican said it, and I'm not going to look the other way if a democrat says it.

[rinsd]

125. No, its an "in the family" argument.

I may have issue with a player on my favorite team but I won't let a fan of my team's rival get away with bashing them.

I may think my brother is a shiftless loser but I won't stand for someone outside the family to say it.

I may dislike some Democrats but I won't let a Republican slam them.

I may dislike certain Americans or things that are inherently American but I'm not going to listen to a person from another country bash them.

This is the mentality of not just most Americans but most people. It is why the concepts of nationalism, tribalism etc. exist.

I think Harkin's response was best but I certainly understand the political nature of Rangle and Pelosi's positions.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

127. Yes, it's Nationalism.

That's why I've a problem with it.

[onenote]

144. well, you can learn to live with it

or you can suffer being in the minority forever...

I know what I choose...

[katinmn]

108. We must stand up for the "home team??"

That is the difference between those who criticize Chavez for calling out Bush and those who say it's time someone stood up to the little dictator.

I don't ever want to be associated with Bush's team. He is Un-American. He is a traitor.

[Snivi Yllom]

115. 'home team' = the United States of America

and we are all on the same team

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

116. No we're not.

There's Bush's team. And then there's my team.

[katinmn]

120. No, we're not all on the same team.

I do not support the Bush Cult, never will.

I do not support torture, class war, imperialism, or making serfs out of American working people.

[Cleita]

114. No one is taking sides. That's what freepers do. What we

do is try to get the facts and truth out that is available out there. Since I wondered why a man so popular with his people was trashed in the American press and by American politicians with nothing more to back their statements with other than that he wasn't someone WE should like and do business with, I decided to find out what I could about him.

Believe me, compared to many world leaders that we are so cozy with, Chavez came up smelling like a rose. I'm sure Bush won't hold hands and kiss him like he does with his Arab buddies, who are the real and oppressive dicators we don't seem to want to call thugs although they really are.

[Patsy Stone]

113. That's right.

Only you are worthy of calling yourself a progressive -- the rest of us who disagree with you are Freepers. I guess that makes me a Freeper.

If your father was mentally disabled, and everyone knew it, would it still be okay for your neighbor to go on national television and call your dad a "retard"?

Bush is a criminal, and an idiot and he's *our* criminal and idiot. To quote Animal House: They can't do that to our pledges, only WE can do that to our pledges.

[yppahemnkm]

118. Chavez lost all serious credibility

Once he started name calling. If he would have spoke like the president of Iran did, maybe his words would have been heard, but, since he started name calling, all was lost.

[FyurFly]

121. Agreed n/t

[katinmn]

123. Ok, you Nazi appeaser. Point taken.

;-)

[Snivi Yllom]

126. Chavez calls Bush a devil, you called a poster a nazi

thuggery is universal

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

128. And now you've called a poster a thug.

Worse, you didn't notice the sarcasm.

Did you pick up on the irony?

[katinmn]

129. Maybe you missed the week when the Bush Team called Dems "Nazi Appeasers"

Yeah, I made a little joke. :)

[Hoping4Change]

131. He gained credibility with me. eom

[yppahemnkm]

135. I wrote..

Serious credibility.

[Hoping4Change]

140. Chavez voiced what BILLIONS of people in the world at this very

moment think. Many people may not themselves choose Devil to describe ratboy but Chavez is a Populist and Populists eschew high brow speech. The fact that he uses colourful language does not detract from his message.

[noonwitch]

130. I haven't bashed him, but I am not a fan of communism

I don't consider him a dictator, as the people elected him. On the other hand, I think communism is wrong, it doesn't work and all it really does is create a different class of privileged people from the ones who were privileged prior to the revolution. I further believe that communism by it's very nature strips away individual rights, responsibilities and accomplishments in the name of "collective rights".

If Edison had been in a communist nation, the nation would claim that he didn't invent all those things because he was a brilliant and industrious individual, they would have said his inventions were glorious achievements for the Party! And that's a lot more bullshit than most of us deal with in a capitalistic society.

[lectrobyte]

132. Me neither. I think he's truly concerned about the poverty in his

country, and trying to do something about it.

[Seeking Serenity]

150. How is offering cut-rate fuel oil to a rich country

helping the poor in his own country?

He seems to act as if all of Venezuela's oil is his to dispense with in his sole and absolute discretion, not a resource that should benefit his people.

[lectrobyte]

153. He's offering some fuel to the poor in our country. He's not the

demon the press is making him out to be. And speaking of "oil is his to dispense with in his sole and absolute discretion, not a resource that should benefit his people", what do you think is happening in Saudi Arabia or Texas as far as "oil benefitting the people"?

[Jcrowley]

136. Amidst all the trashing

I have yet to see one iota of evidence to back up the all the Chavez bashing.

Where are the examples? Where is the historical context? Nowhere.

[eggbeater]

143. When he becomes a citizen

and registers to vote,
then he can have the power to walk into our cities and trash our leaders.

I dont care how right he is, we can not turn our backs on our country in favor of some pissant dictator.

He is what we fear. He is what Chimpster is just one step away from.

dont believe for a moment that he has the poor Americans in mind when he offers cheap fuel oil to them, he does not. He is trying in his own sick little way to purchase the next election for his own needs.

We can handle it ourselves.

maybe this last 6 years is just what we needed in way of a wake up call.

even though I wont be here to see the next election, I do care what happens.
I care because of my family, I care because of each and every one of you that has endured hardships due to a administration that does not have you in their mind.

Dont listen to pissants, listen to your own mind and do what is right.
FIGHT FOR A RETURN OF CIVILIZATION IN THIS COUNTRY

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

145. Why So Hard To Believe? He's A Childish, Provocative, Taunting Fool.

I don't respect anyone that has to resort to childish and provocative taunts instead of simply speaking from intelligence and high road professionalism. I'm also not going to trust anybody whose best friends are Ahmadinejad, Kim Jong Il and Fidel Castro. Aligning myself with someone who needs to use playground taunts while keeping the company of those three is not exactly how I envision winning people over to vote democratic in November.

I understand many others have differing opinions on this but this is mine.

[stella]

146. Chavez helps the poor.

With katrina Bush showed us how he really feels about the poor and the blacks, enough said.

[Bucky]

156. Does good for the poor, but stiffs the middle class, organized labor

He's a mixed bag. He's alleviated the problems of the poor, which is good. But most improvements in Venezuela's living conditions are results of his social services programs. There's no real economic reform or economic growth there. The middle class, the ambitious small business owners who could turn Venezuela into another economic miracle, are fleeing Venezuela in droves--chased off by Chavez's police state tactics and undiplomatic alienation of the investment community.

What he's done good is very good. What he does wrong is going to cause long term problem for his people and risks turning Venezuela into another Cuba. If he was more like Lula in Brazil, he'd be a godsend for his country. As it is, he's an old school socialist in a slightly better wardrobe.

[bluestateguy]

148. I think he has done a lot of good things for Venezuela

but he can also be kind of a load sometimes, and a self-promoter. Just because something is true does not mean that you always have to say it. There is a time and a place for everything, even when what you plan to say is true. I would have rather he made a speech that stuck to denouncements of Bush's policies. Instead, the "devil" remark got all of the play (as if that should surprise anyone), which kind of drown out his very fair criticisms of US policy.

[Red Right and BLUE]

151. I like what Chavez has said. It's the truth.

Doesn't mean I like Chavez himself.

[newsguyatl]

154. interestingly, many of the "dems"

on here who bashed him (some obsessively in the last few days) i've always questioned anyway.