Fuck You Nancy Pelosi and and big stinking Fuck You to Charles Rangel

[951-Riverside]

If our party wins in '06 and this 'Joementum' shit continues I'm walking away from the Democratic Party until its cleaned up. What Chavez said is no different from Bush calling certain nations the 'axis or evil' or calling people 'evildooers' but did Nancy call Charlie's "President" a thug, NO!

Abraham Lincolin stood up and abolished Slavery and JFK stood up for civil rights but what are our party representives like Liberman, Clinton, Pelosi and Rangel doing about this travesty in the white house?

NOTHING!!!!!!!!

"Hugo Chavez fancies himself a modern day Simon Bolivar but all he is an everyday thug," - Pelosi :mad:

"You don't come into my country, you don't come into my congressional district, and you don't condemn my president" - Rangel :mad:

[borlis]

1. But now if Chavez had said that about Clinton when he was pres....

hhmmmmm....let me see. I just bet that all the repubs would agree with him. Don't you? The sheeple just get in line.

[951-Riverside]

2. (Removed)

I misunderstood the poster, sorry again.

[borlis]

7. My point is that the dems can't unite on any issue.

On this issue, when the tables are turned, they defended bush.

[951-Riverside]

11. I'm sorry I was a bit clouded by anger.

I understand your point now.

[donheld]

9. I don't see your point as moot at all

You know the repuglicans would have cheered him on.

[VolcanoJen]

3. Pick your battles wisely

And please, don't ever type the words "Fuck You Charlie Rangel" again.

That's so much more offensive to me than Chavez' comments.

Pelosi and Rangel are doing the right thing. I admire them. The right was quick this morning to jump on an imaginary bandwagon that liberals were giddy at Chavez' comments, and they lost that argument. Quickly.

We have bigger fish to fry, my friend. Keep your eyes on the prize and let the Chavez comments become yesterday's news, already.

[Poll_Blind]

24. CNN: Democrats warn Chavez: Don't bash Bush (ouch, that stings)

  That's a headline Democrats don't enjoy seeing so much, you know? It was plastered all over CNN's front page as their top story, in fact, and still remains in their top 10-or-so stories.

  Now, please explain to me what Pelosi and Rangel (et al.) gained for the Democratic party from these statements? Over, say, just keeping quiet. Would it have not been sufficient to keep mum on the matter, there was certainly no particular public outcry for the Democrats to respond.

  I need help understanding that. Because this is politics. Maybe if someone had used a time-machine to transport Democrats from a less-partisan time in American history could I see this being an expected response. Bush's very first day in office he's been shitting all over us, first on his imaginary "Mandate of the People" and later on his "War President" shtick.

  And it's not let up.

  Why, then? What does it gain us over just keeping our mouths shut and letting the Republicans fend off the verbal attacks from Chavez?

PB

[VolcanoJen]

36. To me...

...Chavez came off like Khruschev banging his shoe on the fucking table.

No respect. Undiplomatic. Gains nothing. Sheer hyperbole.

Chavez is free to speak ill of the US President, for certain... but that was a shrewd move meant to stir up the fire cauldron. He's suceeded in that.

But I'll tell you something... I don't like it when foreign rulers come to the UN, which happens to be on US soil, and say inflammatory remarks directed at the US President. I am an American, he insulted the office of the Presidency, and that insulted me, too.

Now... I'm Miss Lefty-Progressive, far left from most, have never uttered a kind word about the current holder of the presidency, and still, it offended me. I didn't need anyone to tell me it offended me. It did.

So if it offended someone as left as I am, imagine how it offended everyone else.

I don't want to talk about Hugo Chavez for the next six weeks. I want to talk about the failed Iraq policy. I want to talk about why Donald Rumsfeld still has a job. I want to talk about why 45+ million Americans have no access to health care.

Supporting Hugo Chavez right now is not the same thing as fighting for the resolvement of real issues. Pelosi and Rangel helped put the straw man to bed. I am happy, and eager, to get back to talking about what Bush has done, rather than what he is.

[951-Riverside]

54. Re: "I am an American, he insulted the office of the Presidency"

:rofl: FFS he wasn't talking about all Presidents, he wasn't talking about the office or the carpeting or the desk or the picture frames or the other crap in there, he was talking about that coked up, mentally retarded fuck holding the office which he STOLE in 2000. If you and Erika like or support the Resident just come and say it.

[VolcanoJen]

67. Listen...

.... Erika and I have been around DU for awhile, so I'd lay off the "ideological-purge" rhetoric if I were you.

She and I clearly think your argument is shit, and it's insulting to Democrats whom we respect. I'm sorry if you don't understand that defending the Presidency isn't the same as defending Bush. We're not defending Bush, unless you think that defending Rangel/Pelosi is defending Bush by proxy.

You do understand how ridiculous that seems, don't you?

I've been a member of this site since January 21, 2001, and if you want to debate my ideological purity, I'd suggest you conduct a DU search.

If you think that Chavez could help Democrats, you're clearly not very good at politics.

You and I are coming at this from different corners. But at least I didn't attack your liberal street-cred.

[Poll_Blind]

56. I heartily agree with you about the order of priorities. I wish I had a..

...more satisfying response for their behavior (and it was not a unanimous response, Tom Harkin acknowledged the deficits of Bush in his response) than "They helped put a strawman to bed." It's late, we're both a little tired because of our days, and I do not have the opportunity to look you in the eyes and let you see the real sadness at my not being able to get an answer that makes sense on this one.

  In another thread, I said this gave me The Fear because it frightened me deeply even to speculate that the Democratic Leadership would allow Bush to pass his torture legislation, which I understand would also retroactively absolve him and his torture-mates, of crimes. I realize that we may not be able to stop it but if there is no filibuster on this to make a point I...alot of people...are wondering what's the big fight, when do the (kid) gloves come off?

  The Rope-a-Dope works, but you've got to start punching back sometime.

PB

[bobbie]

70. The fact that the UN is on American soil is just geography

The UN is independent of the country it happens to reside in. Or it should be. Chavez has every right to go to the UN and state his case. Frankly I think the UN should be in Switzerland or someplace else, you know-a neutral country-instead of in the US.

The fact that Chavez then went around Harlem trashing Bush is another story.

His rhetoric was clearly over the top. But Chavez has managed to stay alive by keeping a very high profile, and waging a very public battle with the BFEE. They've been itching to kill him for years, and the fact that they haven't is largely because he's making it much harder for them to discreetly kill him.

[TankLV]

87. I don't understand how you can say that.

Bush is not a thug - he is a big stinking piece of shit and a WAR CRMINAL - and ANYBODY who tells this TRUTH deserves praise and support.

Bush is NOT "my president" and NEVER will be - he deserves NO respect.

If the entire 99% of the rest of the world were to line up and repeat what Chavez said, only THEN could I feel somewhat better after what that ASSWIPE has done to MY country!

Have you NO shame?

God bless Hugo Chavez.

I'm currently also ASHAMED of rangle and pelosi for what THEY said...

[VolcanoJen]

93. I think that's really rotten...

... that you would utter the words "Have you NO shame" at me because I refuse to defend Chavez' remarks at the UN yesterday. Those are words that shouldn't be thrown around so casually, if you think about their historical context.

Is this what you want me to get outraged about? The fact that I'm not cheerleading Hugo Chavez enough? I'm outraged about plenty... but this isn't one of those issues on the top of my list.

In other, completely unrelated Chavez-Pelosi-Rangel news, 20,000 Iraqi civilians have been murdered this year, 6,700 in the last two months. That's what I'm pissed off about.

And supporting a foreign leader who called Bush "The Devil" doesn't solve anything, it just reinforces steadfast beliefs. It doesn't convince anyone "on the Devil Fence" in terms of Bush. It's superficial. It doesn't mean anything. Not one goddamned thing at all.

The only thing it succeeds in doing is making us scream at each other.

[TankLV]

100. No - I'm outraged that you are making life easier for the WAR CRIMINAL

currently occupying OUR White House.

That's giving aid and comfort to the ENEMY - you know - the asswipe THUG - DEVIL INCARNATE - bush*

[Webster Green]

25. Bullshit!

Pelosi has no right to call Chavez a thug. She is merely repeating right-wing talking points. She seems to be clueless regarding the devil-chimp's attempts to overthrow the government of Venezuela.

I'm furious at her.

Fuck Pelosi!

[TankLV]

89. AMEN!

[VolcanoJen]

101. So, Tank.

Suddenly, we're on opposite sides?

Is this Chavez issue really the one you want to throw me down the well for?

Really?

Otherwise, have I been ideologically pure enough for you?

[and-justice-for-all]

4. Are they fucking joking!!! WTF!?

So, how much did repukes slip those ball less hacks to get them to say that? Chavez is not a thug!! He is what Democrats should be, out spoken with the truth...

I am sending those 2 fucks a nasty gram!!!

[Erika]

16. Chavez is not an American. Get real. n/t

[Nite Owl]

5. They all see it as just politics

it isn't about us, the people. To them it shouldn't 'get personal' but it's very personal when your the one who doesn't have healthcare, don't have a job and your standard of living goes down every year. They don't get it, the GOP is still their good buddies it seems no matter what happens to our country. Saying things like this makes the dems seem very shallow and very weak. If they aren't willing to stand up to this idiot in the WH how will they ever stand up for anything for us. That's the impression that they give and why people think of them as weak.

[Erika]

12. Rangel weak?

I don't think so. He was a Korean war vet and a loyal democrat. He's also an American.

Many Republicans have left their status as American behind and became bushbots.

[VolcanoJen]

14. Charles Rangel earned a Purple Heart and a Bronze Star...

... during the Korean War.

I will not allow anyone, even DUers, to swiftboat Charlie Rangel.

[Erika]

18. Agree. He is a truly disciplined democrat and American

I think he's great.

[KaptBunnyPants]

19. And I won't allow anyone, not even Rangel, to swiftboat Chavez

nt

[VolcanoJen]

22. I hope that was intended to be humorous.

Otherwise, it just comes off as profoundly stupid.

[KaptBunnyPants]

38. Oh damn, and your opinion was ever so important to me.

How can I get through the day knowing some blind fool on the internet thinks it's stupid to defend a good man like Chavez from unwarrented attacks?

[VolcanoJen]

48. Chavez = Troll Feeder

You don't make a lot of sense. You know that, right?

[Name removed]

57. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

59. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

69. Deleted message

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[VolcanoJen]

74. Are you new at this?

You really sound like it. It's amateurish, in a painful way. It's so "USENET," it hurts.

And I'm growing bored with your word games... you're just some new kid around here, after all, and you're pretty new at this. Would you care to talk about an issue concerning DU, or would you like to explore my personality a little more?

[KaptBunnyPants]

77. Delete

delete - just saveing the mods the trouble.

[Name removed]

64. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[VolcanoJen]

72. Ideology Purge

It's in another post, but really, if you want to pick a fight about mine and Erika's ideological purity, I'd suggest you do a DU Search on our previous posts.

We've been around for awhile.

Hey, if you want to make Chavez your #1 2006 Election Issue, then, please, go ahead. But don't get all bristly when someone stands up to your straw man, liberal street-cred rhetoric.

[Name removed]

84. Deleted message

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[VolcanoJen]

85. As long as you don't level a personal attack at me...

.. your comments will remain. If I level a personal attack at you, my comments will be deleted.

Are you accusing DU of partisan censorship? Sounds like it. Just make the argument without calling me a child molester or a Bushie, and I think you'll be fine.

[Name removed]

94. Deleted message

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[VolcanoJen]

96. I'm right here

If you want to talk to me.

:hi:

As long as we don't call each other Bushies or child molesters, our posts will stand, you know. Make your argument.

[TankLV]

91. We DO know YOU don't make alot of sense now...

That's for sure...

[VolcanoJen]

98. Ummm, OK

So, I'm not on the "Fuck Pelosi and Rangel" bandwagon, and suddenly, I don't make sense.

:shrug:

[Erika]

26. Maybe it's just a typo. n/t

[Nite Owl]

43. Politics is about perception

not reality. Why do you think the repukes are the ones that people think can protect them? It isn't because they do it's because they are perceived that way. Politically they never back down, they never apologize no matter what they say. The list is long of dems who served and repukes who refused but does that reality make a difference in perception? It's all about what people see in soundbites, what the headlines are because that is as far as most people get. The dems have to learn to play the game to win and control the debate. If they don't they continue to lose and not have control of anything, no change no matter how hard we work. We are at a point in history where they must win.

[Erika]

6. Rangel and Pelosi ended the bush bashers argument forever

Can't you see that? Can't you also see that we are one country who shouldn't allow outsiders to determine our political outcomes?

[VolcanoJen]

10. Exactly... Rangel and Pelosi buried the Chavez Distraction

Believe me, these Republican asshats would much rather talk about Hugo Fucking Chavez than the war against Iraq.

Why would we let them have that debate? What, on earth, does it matter?

Is Bush up for reelection? Who cares?

[Warren DeMontague]

20. As long as it isn't symptomatic of the playbook for the next month, ok.

I'm sick of our people "playing nice" while they pull shit like morphing Max Cleland into Osama bin Laden.

[VolcanoJen]

28. This isn't "playing nice"

It's an offensive move against a god-given gift to the Republicans.

Pelosi played her hand well today. I'm impressed. Let's not give Rove six weeks to talk about Chavez, instead of Iraq and the State of Our Union. Let's not play into his goddamned hands. For once.

We have bigger fish to fry. Move on... and talk about the issues.

[lapfog_1]

49. I would she had said something a bit more thoughtful

about Chavez...

something like "If we have learned anything over the last 5 years, it is that leaders of great nations
need to be diplomatic, especially when addressing other nations. President Chavez, apparently, has
not yet learned this lesson."

[VolcanoJen]

55. That was nice, but it would have been a lot more boring.

Also, it would have sounded mealy-mouthed.

Pelosi's gambling that more Americans are interested in defending the Presidency (not necessarily Bush) than Hugo Chavez' particular take on the matter.

I'm gambling with her.

[lapfog_1]

65. Yes, but she is sinking to a bush like level

when she uses a term like "thug". Especially when referring to a democratically elected leader of
a country we should be on good to neutral terms with. Remember, she might be third in line to the
Presidency in a few months (we hope!).

[TankLV]

92. They could have remained - SILENT.

NEVER, EVER, say a good word about a repuke or especially bunkerboy - that is our main beef with your line of thinking...

[geek tragedy]

15. Rangel and Pelosi are worried about removing the Republicans

from power.

Chavez is just blathering and and fulminating for his own personal entertainment.

[KaptBunnyPants]

34. You can't honestly believe that.

The right's attacks aren't based in reality, that's why they are so effective. They build storylines, and reinforce those stories at every opportunity with half-truths and flat out lies. The only thing that will end the Bush basher argument is when and if Bush is ever removed from office.

No good came from these statements. I know you are trying to rationalize their dishonesty, but don't. Seriously, we don't need phony outrage. Either they agreed with Chavez's take on Bush, or they don't deserve to be leading the opposition Party. The man is an alcoholic, he is a buffoon, he's a war mongerer, a killer, a liar, a con artist, a dangerous lunatic forcing not only America onto the path toward extinction, but the entire human race. And they don't deserve it. We might, but the rest of the world doesn't. Hasn't the last 6 years proven to the doubting thomas's out there that it is impossible to underestimate the human cesspool that is "our President"?

[VolcanoJen]

53. I don't need phony outrage...

... anymore than I need your phony Chavez "issue."

Can you converse on other topics? Or do you just like talking about shit that doesn't matter?

[KaptBunnyPants]

61. Well, considering the thread is about Chavez

I thought I would talk about him. Crazy, I know, but then, like you say, I just don't make much sense.

[Warren DeMontague]

8. "But We WUV Him! He's Ouw Pwezzzident!"

"Now we wiw bend ovew untiw Novembew so Unca Kawl Wove Can Caw Us Tewwowist Wuvvers, Too!"

[geek tragedy]

13. Fuck Hugo Chavez. His clownish, petulant rhetoric is a godsend

to the Bush administration. Anyone who calls other heads of state "the devil" and indulges in Freeper-like personal attacks is not going to convince a single goddamn person that he's right.

[951-Riverside]

...devil ...evildoer, whats the difference?

*ditto* *goddamn* :sarcasm:

[geek tragedy]

21. Exactly. He acts like our Boy King. Not something that

should be applauded.

Do you think Iranians liked hearing their state called part of an Axis of Evil? He just said that the United States is led by the Devil.

It's woefully unserious rhetoric.

[Name removed]

39. Deleted message

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[geek tragedy]

45. DU isn't the UN General Assembly. And 'because it's true'

is an entirely subjective defense. Because, well, lots of folks believe(d) that Saddam, Iran's Mullahcracy, and Kim Jong Il to be inherently evil governments.

[manic expression]

62. Please

don't condemn something and then do it without restraint. That's just ridiculous.

Anyway, his words were perfectly reasonable. He bashed a person who deserved all the bashing in the world. The UN General Assembly is the perfect place for such an endeavor, there is no stage unworthy of it. Bringing up Kim Jong Il doesn't change the fact that Chavez' comments were not uncalled for, nor were they unjustified (quite the contrary). That is much of what matters here.

[geek tragedy]

78. 'Axis of Evil' was a stupid, childish phrase despite the underlying

truthiness.

Bush is not Satan. He's a rightwing Kleptocrat.

[manic expression]

80. OK

I think Chavez would agree that Bush is not Satan. If you analyzed the speech correctly, it was said mostly in jest, but I do think that a lot of truth is said in jest, and that much was intended, reasonable and justified in this case.

Comparing Bush with Chavez is just incorrect and that's simple. I could come up with quite a few analogies, but I won't. Let's just have some perspective.

[geek tragedy]

83. In rhetoric, they are very similar. Bush is a war criminal and is

highly dangerous, unlike Chavez.

But, in general, if you can avoid being like Bush in any way at all, it's probably a good idea.

[Porcupine]

17. You're looking for a spine in the jellyfish jar again. Give up.

These are the same people who voted for the damn Iraq war (Pelosi) when hundreds of thousands of people were marching against it. Arguably tens of thousands from Pelosi's district alone.

Next week you'll be asking them to do something about climate change.

[Erika]

23. So now you knock when she shows spine?

She stood up for America. Yes, she voted wrong in Iraq, like everyone else did.

What does that have to do with now?

[manic expression]

40. Stood up for America?

what in the world are you talking about? She stood up for a president and an administration which deserves nothing but criticism and condemnation. She stood up for the people she SHOULD be standing against.

[Name removed]

47. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[eleny]

27. I wonder who the poor of Harlem appreciate more right now -

Rangel or Chavez? That's where the rubber meets the road. I've appreciated so much that Rangel has said over the years. This one has me shaking my head. Did Rangel thank Chavez for the cheap oil for the poor of his district? More Dems between a rock and a hard place.

I guess that so long as the people will get some lower cost heating oil is all that counts come January.

[Erika]

31. Please look a little deeper.

Rangel is both a New Yorker and an American. Watch the outcome.

[eleny]

37. "And the aspens will already be turning...

They turn in clusters, because their roots connect them."

Spare me.

[thethinker]

29. They look like fools

Clinton, Pelosi & Rangel look like fools defending Bush's honor. They are getting really bad advice from the DLC crowd. How many times have Democrats been attacked and they remained silent?

[Erika]

33. They didn't defend W's honor, not at all.

They just defended Americans controlling their own destiny.

W has no honor and Rangel and Pelosi know it.

[thethinker]

51. They looked foolish - very foolish

Bush has destroyed America's good name. Chavez pointed that out.

If anyone needed to defend Bush's honor, it should have been a republican.

[VolcanoJen]

42. Chavez didn't attack a Republican. He attacked the President.

It's fine if you do it, it's fine if I do it. It's fine if the Dixie Chicks do it. He's an asshole, we're Americans, and we're free to say it.

But when a foreign leader comes to our shores and says something like that, it transcends politics. It becomes diplomatic theater.

Pelosi and Rangel, and Clinton, did not defend President Bush when they renounced Chavez' comments. They defended the Presidency.

Eyes on the prize, for the love of Pete, people, do you really want to talk about Hugo f'n Chavez for the next six weeks??

[thethinker]

68. I disagree

Democratic leaders should have something better to do than defend Bush's honor.

Chavez did not "come to our shores" and speak. He spoke at the UN - international territory.

The republicans should be defending the Presidency, not democrats. It is their president, after all. It is pitiful that we have a president that anyone has to defend. It is pitiful that the rest of the world no longer respects our president.

Pelosi, Rangel and Clinton should have kept their mouths shut and let republicans defend Bush's honor (or lack thereof).

[VolcanoJen]

82. Again, I just don't see it that way.

The president is everybody's president. And while your right that I shouldn't refer to the UN as "our shores," that still doesn't make Chavez seem terribly diplomatic.

The UN is not a place for diplomatic theater, it's a place for trouble-shooting and problem-solving. It really reminds me of Khruschev and the Shoe.

It's not something I think we should be jumping out to defend. If Chavez says that in Venzuela, or at Castro's summit, well, sure, defend it. But at the UN?

Calling the American President "El Diablo" does not endear you to his critics, nor his supporters. It's just poor taste, and I think Pelosi and Rangel did the right thing by getting out in front and denouncing him.

And I happen to think there's a huge difference between supporting the President and supporting the Presidency. Pelosi and Rangel aren't exactly soft on Bush. Clinton? That's another story entirely. :-)

[TankLV]

95. No he didn't - he justifiably ridiculed ONE PARTICULAR IDIOT occupying

that office - that you cannot understand that fact is not surprising.

But, unlike ALL repukes, rangle and pelosi are allowed to make STUPID statements and give aid and comfort to THE ENEMY - bunkerboy.

And unlike ALL repukes, rangle and pelosi are USUALLY CORRECT.

But here they were awfully WRONG - they should have kept their mouths SHUT.

NEVER, EVER have a good word about a WAR CRIMINAL or CRIMINALS in general...

[Lexingtonian]

30. Look- it makes no difference.

It's all theater. Wake up and yell when there's a real national problem, will ya?

[Grebrook]

32. Oh for Christ's sake who cares? Chavez isn't a Dem, so WHO CARES

about what he has to say about Bush? Honestly? We don't need someone else to tell us the truth. Chavez is just annoying. And he gives Fox News and excuse to claim that some foreigner is intervening in our elections. This is about intelligence. And I also don't think it's a good idea to meddle in internal politics in other countries. We shouldn't do it to the Canadians or Mexicans.

I don't know if I'd call Chavez a thug, but he needs to shut up. He just feeds the trolls.

[Erika]

35. Chavez isn't an American. Rangel & Pelosi had the guts

to tell him to shut up.

You didn't see any republicans with these guts.

[951-Riverside]

41. SHUT UP AND STOP BASHING OUR PRESIDENT!

:cry: ....yeah that took alot of guts. :sarcasm: JFC! Erika snap out of it! Bush goes around calling people evildoers and NOTHING is said and when another leader stands up and dishes it back these ass backwards crybabies throw a fit over it.

[VolcanoJen]

46. Actually, I think you're the one who should snap out of it.

If you want to talk about Hugo f'n Chavez for the next six weeks, if that's really where you want to put your money and your legwork, go ahead.

Karl Rove will be happy to entertain your debate.

I'm moving on... I want to talk about what Bush has done, and what this Republican Congress has rubber-stamped, not what Bush is. Just like Pelosi, Rangel, and apparently, DUer Erika.

[951-Riverside]

73. Re: If you want to talk about Hugo f'n Chavez for the next six weeks

I'll talk about Chavez for as long as I like and quite frankly YOU have no right dictating what I can or cannot discuss, so you snap out of it.

Karl Rove will be happy to entertain your debate.

Bring it on. *smirk*

I'm moving on...

So do it.

I want to talk about what Bush has done,

...Don't dictate. :)

and what this Republican Congress has rubber-stamped, not what Bush is.

I see Bush as an idiot and I will continue to talk about how he and his party continues to ruin the country.

[Name removed]

76. Deleted sub-thread

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[Name removed]

97. Deleted message

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[VolcanoJen]

99. Let me harbor another guess....

... it's you?

Thanks for the hint. Sorry, I'm not about to jump on the "Fuck Pelosi and Rangel" bandwagon you folk are driving.

[Erika]

81. I saw Bill Clinton's Offices in Harlem

Some can identify with Chavez. I don't.

Rangel oversees the Harlem district and sees the need to move on. Let's do it.

[magellan]

50. Real guts would be

...telling Bush** to shut up when he asks for a law to permit him to continue engaging in torture.

[Porcupine]

52. Chavez was RIGHT!! He was correct on almost every point!!

and he said things that many americans and most of the rest of the world agree with.

Being an "American" doesn't stand for jack shit if it means we stand up for torture, secret prisons, Saudi dictators, pollution, ignoring climate change, cluster bombing Lebanese villages and gang-raping teenage girls in Iraq.

That's what "American" means to the rest of the world today. Thanks to Bush.

Chavez was RIGHT.

[Grebrook]

58. So what if he was right? Hitler was a vegetarian. I don't want Hitler

campaigning for vegans. Do you? WHO CARES ABOUT CHAVEZ. He's not GOD. He's just ANNOYING.

[clu]

71. progressives should stand together IMO

if you don't like him because he annoys you, that's fine... don't call him a dictator or a thug though. some of you have a small point about focusing on real issues before the election and avoiding more ammunition for the republic party, but there's a difference between calling the remarks inappropriate and repeating RW talking-points.

i'm a little disappointed in pelosi and rangel but it doesn't bother me that much.

[Porcupine]

75. Chavez was elected twice in monitered elections unlike *

He has demonstrably improved the conditions of the poor of his nation while also providing health care and education beyond levels available in most US-friendly dictatorships like say....Pakistan.

In Venezuala EVERY vote in the presidential election has the same weight unlike the US where somebody in the Dakotas gets 8 times the electoral power of a citizen of California. Their elections are approved by Jimmy Carter's orginization which is the current gold standard on elections.

There are no secret prisons or allegations of torture.

Chavez is not Hitler. Your post is without merit.

[rman]

90. Nobody is god, Chavez is a threat to the DC political establishment

Lots of people care about Chavez and the stance he is taking against US imperialism.

[manic expression]

44. So now

only Democrats have the "talking stick"? Is that how it works? We don't need "someone else to tell us the truth", even though Democrats have consistently refused to say it? It's not about meddling in our politics, it's about calling a lunatic a lunatic.

[Grebrook]

60. Since when have Democrats not called out the President? Have you

ever listened to Howard Dean or Nancy Pelosi? They call him out on most of what he does.

[manic expression]

66. There's a thread on DU right now

that is basically about the Democrats willfully not participating in the debate on torture. Many Democrats are sitting on the sidelines when it comes to TORTURE. TORTURE. If that's "not calling out the president", I don't know what is.

Face it: Democratic criticism is limited and leaves much to be desired (if you couldn't figure that out, that's an epic understatement). Let me know when they step it up.

Pelosi? Don't make me laugh (I agree about Dean, he's been great IMO).

[Name removed]

63. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[951-Riverside]

79. *sigh* So why did you even bother to comment..

This sounds like divisive hyperbole.

Riiiiiight I'm not entitled to say P & R is wrong for protecting the pResident because it conflicts with your... agenda.

[countryjake]

86. The message Chavez delivered was frightening to them...

that, combined with his handout of free oil to lower-income Americans is a very scary thing for our corporate lackeys to hear. Not after a summer of bleeding us all dry with higher-than-hell gas prices, which they got away with very nicely.

The bulk of his speech was an awakening for lots of ordinary people out here, people who never even heard of him before, but heard him speak and now are digging for more information on this man from Venezuela. What else does he stand for, besides calling out our ruthless despot who is so busy concocting torture amendments?

Inquiring minds want to know...why are our own politicians so quick to condemn a guy who so deftly conveyed exactly what millions of Americans know to be true. The MSM screwed up by airing Chavez's entire speech cause it's now on the minds of common folk who have been dying to hear someone, anyone, utter such truths.

They can slough it away as much as they want, but we heard and we wonder, what are they so afraid of?

[T Town Jake]

88. Good Gawd. "Fuck you Nancy Pelosi" & etc.

...bookmarking for the next time I get accused of being an "scummy DLC-freeper-rightwing mole." And this thread is STILL up and running.

Good Gawd.

[Heidi]

102. Locking.

This thread has become a flamefest.