NYT editorial: Warner, McCain, Graham have little to show for defiance

[DeepModem Mom]

Editorial
A Bad Bargain
Published: September 22, 2006

....About the only thing that Senators John Warner, John McCain and Lindsey Graham had to show for their defiance was Mr. Bush’s agreement to drop his insistence on allowing prosecutors of suspected terrorists to introduce classified evidence kept secret from the defendant. The White House agreed to abide by the rules of courts-martial, which bar secret evidence. (Although the administration’s supporters continually claim this means giving classified information to terrorists, the rules actually provide for reviewing, editing and summarizing classified material. Evidence that cannot be safely declassified cannot be introduced.)

This is a critical point. As Senator Graham keeps noting, the United States would never stand for any other country’s convicting an American citizen with undisclosed, secret evidence. So it seemed like a significant concession — until Stephen Hadley, the national security adviser, briefed reporters yesterday evening. He said that while the White House wants to honor this deal, the chairman of the House Armed Services Committee, Duncan Hunter, still wants to permit secret evidence and should certainly have his say. To accept this spin requires believing that Mr. Hunter, who railroaded Mr. Bush’s original bill through his committee, is going to take any action not blessed by the White House.

On other issues, the three rebel senators achieved only modest improvements on the White House’s original positions. They wanted to bar evidence obtained through coercion. Now, they have agreed to allow it if a judge finds it reliable (which coerced evidence hardly can be) and relevant to guilt or innocence. The way coercion is measured in the bill, even those protections would not apply to the prisoners at Guantánamo Bay.

The deal does next to nothing to stop the president from reinterpreting the Geneva Conventions. While the White House agreed to a list of “grave breaches” of the conventions that could be prosecuted as war crimes, it stipulated that the president could decide on his own what actions might be a lesser breach of the Geneva Conventions and what interrogation techniques he considered permissible. It’s not clear how much the public will ultimately learn about those decisions. They will be contained in an executive order that is supposed to be made public, but Mr. Hadley reiterated that specific interrogation techniques will remain secret....

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/22/opinion/22fri1.html?hp

[Nite Owl]

1. So in other words they caved.

Is this not important enough for the dems to filibuster? Is the safety of our troops, the Constitution not important enough to expect that much? Or will they be afraid of supporting 'terra' and go along? This will be very telling.

[DoYouEverWonder]

6. It was all a photo op

They didn't cave, they planned it.

[eringer]

30. McCain, Bush's hand puppet

McCain is an idiot. He thinks that W. will help me get the nomination. What a joke he is.

[Javaman]

31. Damn straight he is. McLame is doing his best to look tough...

morons* polls are in the toilet(regardless of what that rightwing spin machine gallup says)and mclame wants to put up a show as the guy who is the person who is out to clean up the ethical issues in washington.

bait and switch. smoke and mirrors.

mclame is morons* ass puppet.

[ClintonTyree]

34. Yep, politics as usual.

Politics trumped principle......again. As usual. The Republican party merely wanted to make a show of their "displeasure" with Bush's policies. Sure, they "stood up to him". :eyes: Now they can go home and preach to their choirs about how they stood up to the big, bad Bush. In the end, it was all sound and fury, signifying nothing.

The Republican party cares MUCH more about appearances and politics than the real safety and security of America's citizens. But, what else is new? :shrug: Retaining power is the only thing that matters to Republicans, the power to fuck up our country beyond belief.

[annabanana]

25. .. just a little pas de deux

A dance step, in Rove's Opus, "Election '06"

McCain caved before about torture. He had NO problem with shrubbie's "I don't have to if I don't want to" signing statement the LAST time the legislature got involved... Why should the torture business engage him more this time around?

[TankLV]

40. ONLY repukes were "permitted" in this "conference" - and we are somehow

surprised at this outcome?!

And the whore media says NOTHING about this BLATENT PARTISANSHIP - but let a single Democrat dare utter a criticism of a repuke - and they scream for weeks about "being biparitsan".

The silence is deafening.

And I can bet my life and entire fortune that if and when the Democrats retake control of any branch of our government, they will voluntarily initiate or bend to the demands of the repuke to "let it go" and NOT undue this travesty!

Bet on this prediction.

[JeffR]

2. Memo to the Senate Democrats: Filibuster, goddamnit

and let America know the madness stops here and now. Or resign. All of you.

[katinmn]

23. Which Dem leaders have spoken out against this monstrosity?

[w4rma]

28. President Clinton has spoken out against it.

I hope that 40+ others were listening and filibuster.

[ClintonTyree]

36. No, they have to "keep their powder dry".

For those instances when it's REALLY needed. :eyes: I can't imagine what could make them filibuster anything. They've let the RepubliCONS have everything they've wanted without using the filibuster yet. Perhaps if the Bushies wanted to legalize the wanton murder of Democrats without penalty THEN they'd use the filibuster. Maybe.

We've got so much fucking "dry powder" right now we could solidify the Atlantic Ocean with it. :puke:

[TankLV]

41. Oh, no - we are told we must "suck it up" one more time & vote Dem again.

Even if our Dems continually DO NOTHING.

I'm lucky that my candidates are OK. But if I were in some other state like Connecticut where that cretin LIE-berman is running AGAINST the dem, maybe causing the dem to lose, if LIE-berman wins, I would NEVER support him, no matter what party he decided he was in on any particular day. NEVER.

[scone]

3. fillibusters & signing statements

Filibusters trump signing statements, no doubt. But most Senate and House Democrats are desperate to out-fascist their fascist Republican counterparts.

[newyawker99]

26. Hi scone!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[Eric J in MN]

4. Email that editorial to your Senators.

And you Rep.

One can write, "I agree with the following editorial."

[Tyler Durden]

5. Scratch a rePuke and what do you get??

Nothing. An empty shell with no heart or subsance. Vacuum.

[iamjoy]

7. Does No One Think About

I sort of posted this point sarcastically in another thread about this, but I am really worried.

If BushCo can refuse to follow the Geneva Conventions (on torture) because it is "vague" what is to stop something similar from happening in our civil justice system? Could Dubya not later announce that the Eighth Amendment (cruel and unusual punishment) is "vague" and allow criminal confessions obtained through torture?

Too often I have heard people defend such incursions on our civil liberties (illegal wire tapping, etc) by saying "if you aren't doing anything wrong, you don't have anything to fear" - but this is not true. We know that even the best cops (to say nothing of the few hate filled ones with an agenda) make mistakes, get the wrong guy. We know that the most innocent of actions or statements (not to mention ones that are wrong, but not criminal) can be misinterpreted.

Does no one realize the danger or am I just being paranoid?
(heck of a board to post this question)

[johnlal]

11. Humanity is a vague concept to Republicans

The Geneva Conventions require nothing less than Humane treatment of prisoners. If Bush finds the term to be vague, and needs definition or guidance, it says a lot about him and his kind.

[Tin Man]

29. 8th Amendment is clearly under perview of Supreme Court

any attempt to "clarify" cruel&unusual by this Admin would certainly go before the SC.

Although, it certainly doesn't help that BushCo has packed the SC with their neobot minions... :scared:

[bluescribbler]

47. You are not, "just paranoid".

"Beware the camel's nose", goes the old proverb. This is the camel's neck. :grr: :banghead: :mad:

[oc2002]

8. Moderate republicans have no balls, if they did they would of left the

party as independents..

The Bushies and the Fundies control the party.

[peaches2003]

9. Bush now is all-powerful

If the Repukes have no balls as you say, and this is proof they don't nor do they even have any self-respect, then the Dems have even less. We are now officially under the rule of our dictator.

[johnlal]

13. I agree

We have allowed the story to be about how Graham, McCain and Warner feel. The media focused on three republicans, as if they were the opposition. The media, and the American people were misled again. When the dust cleared, we see that a compromise has been reached between the Republicans and the Republicans. The focus has been taken away from the Democratic opposition.

[johnlal]

10. Anyone who still believes in moderate republicans...

is living in a fantasy world. McCain is the worst of them. He is so two-faced that I can't believe he has any credibility anymore. In the run-up to the mid-term elections, it has been widely reported that republican candidates have been "keeping their distance" from President Bush, even while they are allowing him to raise funds for them. If the so-called "maverick" of the Republican party is so quick to knuckle under to torture, you can bet that the rank-and-file have no more independence. This torture vote is the knife that will cut through the veil of Republican independence in the upcoming elections.

[Laurab]

39. And now he's "praising" the agreement

as if they actually accomplished something. He IS the worst of them, because it's for political gain and nothing more. The other two, as far as I know, have no presidential ambitions.

The truth is, though, that people who only read the "librul" newspapers think he IS a maverick - which makes me sick. He is Bushes puppet as much as, or even more, than most.

[Jacobin]

12. Wankers

[gratuitous]

14. What is the Times talking about? Little to show?

McCain, Graham and Warner all got lots and lots of air time, and they held up this odious piece of legislation for almost 96 hours before agreeing to a compromise that deprives the administration of using the monogrammed cattle prods it so badly wanted! You call that "little to show"?

I'd call it less than nothing.

Well Senate Democrats; your powder should be good and dry, as long as you've held your fire. Time to cut loose, don't you think?

[mazzarro]

15. Yeah right!

I'll believe it when I see it - them Dems really cutting it loose, I mean!

[Dhalgren]

16. Agreed. This is "put up or shut up" time for the Democrats in

congress. If torture and fascist show trials are not the place for a "line in the sand", I don't know what is. This is a defining moment for the Democratic Party. This is where, if they can't stop this fascist shit, they walk out and hold a separate, legitimate congress until the elections in November. If the Americans vote the fascists back in or the fascists steal another election, then it's civil war.

Anyone who thinks that this isn't the issue to bring this country to a screeching halt, hasn't been paying attention. This is it. This is the one. This is who we are. If this bill goes through then we have to come out, full bore, a never relenting insurgency. We have to show this fascist government and the rest of the world who we are. This is it...

[Jawja]

24. This is not just a defining

moment for the Democratic Party. It is a defining moment for America.

[EarthNeedsHope]

17. And the Democrats are silence

God, pelosi and reid are stupid! They need to get in on this.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

18. I think they need 6 more Senators

on their side. For the moment they are powerless, and it is not their fault.

[warrens]

19. Enough is enough

If it's not torture, then Cheney has to go through it before they use it on prisoners. These nazi clowns are doing everything in their power to make torture legal. Even the one concession, that the jury and defense see the same evidence, is stupid, because it allows the prosecution to remove names, details, times, locations out of the documents, information that is vital to deciding if the information is credible or not. The way they wrote it, you can have a report that says XXXXXX said the defendant was planning to kill XXXXXX in XXXXXXX on XXXXXX. Jury sees defendant and kill, but not the source or even if the guy was around at the time he supposedly made the threat.

[Supersedeas]

20. lesser breaches of the Geneva Conventions decided by Presidential fiat

[mopinko]

21. you better give em hell harry

he was quoted here the other day promising this would not come to the floor. it f'ing better not.

[flyarm]

22. i just called McCains office..and i said

as a woman who's entire family has been in the military.i want to thank Senator McCain for his wondeful photo opps regarding the Geneva Conventions...( the guy on the phone started to thank me for the call..and i kept on speaking..)

then i said i hope i get the opportunity to meet and be in a public place with senator McCain so i can thank him in person..by spitting on his feet ..and the ground in front of him..as he no longer deserves to walk the hallowed ground of the UNITED STATES of America...i said he is a coward of the worst degree..and i hope he rots in the hottest of hells for the sentence he has just placed on our soldiers , now , tommorrow and forever.

then i said tell him i said go to hell!

fly

[StatGirl]

27. The word "defiance" is just another propaganda term

It implies that Bush has the right to call the shots, and anyone who disagrees with him is a child or a subordinate who deserves punishment or a slapdown.

[AX10]

32. McCain is no maverick. John Warner is a reactionary conservative.

Lindsay Graham is a LIAR!

[Generator]

33. Does anyone now not understand how Nazi Germany happened?

And Bush isn't even using gangs of thugs beating up people. Just worried about their image, about getting elected again, these people "compromised" for what? Explain to me..for what. Does the idea that protecting one innocent person from torture come into their heads? That governments, men, make mistakes all the time?

[mtnester]

35. Except a sore ass channel...n/t

[svbackstreets]

37. Habeas Corpus

To me the worst part of all this is that the President can disappear people on his say so and they have no right to a hearing. So you're not a foreigner or an unlawful combatant? Tell it to the judge.

Oh sorry you can't!

[thoughttheater]

38. Tongue-in-cheek visual of the Grand Opening of "Tortureland"

See a tongue-in-cheek visual of the Grand Opening of "Tortureland"...here:

www.thoughttheater.com

[VP505]

42. It really is

a sad day in America, that three Repuke Senators and one piss poor excuse of a President could inflict on 300 million people a disastrous policy with irreversible consequences with their so called "compromise". I say it that way because the opposition party leaders and Senate Democrats appear to be silently standing aside and watching it happen. Democracy is dying a slow painful death and I for one feel helpless to stop it, FAXING, Emailing, letter writing and phone calling our Representatives seem to be falling on deaf ears and blind eyes.

[annm4peace]

43. MN Senator Mark Dayton's

Minnesota's Senator Mark Dayton's office said he would vote against the bill.
Sen. Coleman's office didn't know how he would vote.

* What did your senator have to say ??

[Seabiscuit]

44. This whole fiasco was just another Repuke stunt.

I never believed for a minute that Warner, McCain, Graham were serious about their overly publicized objections to Bush's "program". They just proved me right.

They have their heads so far up Bush's tush that I can't tell where they end and he begins!

[Bucky]

45. Am I the only one wondering if McCain, Graham & Taylor put on a pony show?

Oops, I meant to type "McCain, Graham, & Warner." Don't know where that typo came from.

But seriously, it looks like they made a big stink to show that the administration is willing to compromise, then passed along a compromise bill that still protects some pretty onorous shit (like removal of habeas corpus) without according to the ACLU specifically prohibiting most of the torture methods that are validating the worst claims of our enemies.

[Danger Mouse]

46. I want to wash my mouth out with soap...

for EVER saying a kind thing about McCain. He claimed that he would take a stand on this issue even if it cost him the presidency. Bullshit. You bent over for your rogering just like always. You were TORTURED in Vietnam. Doesn't that give you any compassion or understanding for those who are suffering torture now, or will in the future, in our name?
I guess not.
You have no integrity.
You have no honor.
You disgust me.