A little over 50 days till the election and you guys are ready to toss the

[LeftCoast]

Dems overboard because of statements about Chavez? I am just amazed.

You know, there's a lot of finger pointing as to who's to blame for why Dems are out of power, but maybe we should look at ourselves a little bit too. We're hardly acting like a winning team here...

:rant:

/rant

[JDPriestly]

1. Chavez is no hero! Contrary to the opinion of some DUers.

Sorry guys. But Chavez is hung up on himself. We'll see how good a democrat he is when he is voted out of office and wants to stay.

[LeftCoast]

7. My issue with this Chavez business isn't that people like or dislike him

I'm just blown away by some of the incredibly negative comments I'm seeing *RIGHT* before an incredibly important election. One which we actually have a chance of winning. Arg. I'm getting worked up again.

[babylonsister]

9. Huh? Chavez isn't a dem and won't be voted out of office here. nt

[Ken Burch]

29. Whether Chavez is a hero or not, it goes without saying

That anyone Bush would put in in his place would have to be a reactionary thug. And what's scary is that it sounds like some of OUR guys would prefer Latin America to have right wing leaders.

Face it, folks "pro-American" Latin American leaders are usually scary, ugly and murderous. They are never progressive and positive.

[Rainscents]

2. I don't think, DUer's are saying, they want to toss dems on Nov 7th.

Maybe onece we take the House and Senate, we can star to toss the worthless shits over.

[LeftCoast]

4. I almost feel like I can't even look at the GD forum list anymore

It just seems like every thread out there is bashing one Democrat or another.

[Roxy66]

5. I dont think it's bashing....it's calling our leaders to action.

There is nothing wrong with getting fired up a little. My pulse is up tonight....Put a little fire under their asses!!!!

[LeftCoast]

11. There's a difference between a call to action and yelling

"Fuck You Nancy Pelosi and and big stinking Fuck You to Charles Rangel" which one GD thread does. I will grant that some of the other 'bashing' threads could also been seen as calls to action though. I'm as dismayed as many here by some of the things that are going on right now (torture, etc) but I think we need to keep focused on how we're going to win in Nov.

[Rainscents]

6. I think DUer's and most Dem's are very frustrated with our Democratic

Reps are not speaking up with one voice and I do also understand your frustration too and I understand what you mean. Sometimes, it pains me too when we start eating our own and also, sometimes, they deserve to be spank too.

[Change has come]

3. It does look like we're in for quite a ride.

Circular Firing Squad.....Check! :patriot:

[FrenchieCat]

25. Yep!

The Squad's all here!

[lapfog_1]

32. Man 3 knows his hat is black.

but he has to hurry up and say it.

[Poll_Blind]

8. Please explain to me what Rangel, et al. GAINED for the Democratic party?

  I posted a long rant in General but most if it can be boiled down to the following: Can you quantify what, exactly, Rangol, Pelosi, et al. gained for the Democratic party through their commentary on the matter as opposed to, say, keeping mum and letting the Republicans do the talking?

  Because I'm unable to see what the deeper strategy was, here. Because CNN's got a nice fat headline saying "Democrats warn Chavez: Don't bash Bush" and, for once, it's not a terribly misleading one.

  The real question I'd like an answer to is what this gained for the Dems, but a bonus question which is more related to your reasonable and arguable turn-the-mirror-on-thyself approach:

  What makes more of an impact on registered voters: ~500 messages in two or three dozens threads or headlines in most every print and cable media outlet like the one on CNN for a few days?

PB

[babylonsister]

10. And have you noticed not a peep from the repugs?

Mum should have been the word.

[Poll_Blind]

17. No, I haven't and that's...ah, well it's not fishy, but I would have...

...expected something from them. That's not to say that Rethugs didn't provide and endless number of soundbytes, it's more likely that the MSM chose to dutifully report everything a Dem had to say on the matter, especially those most repelled by Chavez's comments.

  Again, though, I don't see what keeping quiet would have cost us.

PB

[OzarkDem]

14. Since when does CNN discuss real news?

They don't. They're just pulling a load of crap for the GOP in an attempt to get Dems riled up.

Chavez stuff is a diversion, ignore it.

[Grebrook]

15. Do you actually think it would HELP Dems to applaud Chavez? Get real

It wouldn't help in any way, but it might hurt since he's a foreign fanatic who may very well be contributing dollars to FARC in Columbia. That opens a hole can of worms. Who cares what he says. Pelosi taking a shot at Chavez? How is that a big deal? I don't give a rat's ass about Hugo Chavez.

[Poll_Blind]

18. I didn't list one of the options as applauding Chavez. The options were..

..what has making those statements that Rangel, et al. did gain for the Democratic party that keeping mum on the matter would not.

PB

[manic expression]

24. 'Foreign fanatic'?

Come on. Have a lack of concern for what he says all you want, but calling him a "foreign fanatic" is just ludicrous. Seriously, don't give a rat's ass about him if you don't want to, but let's get facts straight.

[Ken Burch]

30. Which means you want the poor of Latin America to lose their only hope

There is no progressive anti-Chavez position in Latin America. Being anti-Chavez there means being on the side of the rich.

And fine, it isn't the most important thing, but it was just as horrible a sign as JFK coming out for overthrowing Castro in the last days of the 1960 election, a stand JFK didn't have to take. I think we can agree that it would have been a bloodsoaked nightmare for Cuba if the Bay of Pigs had succeeded.

[LeftCoast]

16. I believe they're viewing it as innoculation against republican charges of

'disloyalty'. They've already been pretty free with it earlier in the campaign.

[Poll_Blind]

21. I can see that as a possible strategy and I only heard it mentioned...

..., fleetingly, in another thread. I will admit to you, LeftCoast, that I did not consider it as a serious strategy as the Dems have been both the bedpan and punching bag for Rethugs who ushered in an unprecedented (?) level of partisanship and political unilateralism.

  Because of the volume of personal and ideological insults levied by the Rethugs for the lion's share of the last six years I'm still a little skeptical that it should still be a way to predictably (or even preemptively, as you suggest) control the Democratic commentary. At a certain point, I would have felt that we would ignore reacting to the disloyalty commentary and go straight for the jugular with the veritable butcher's shop of well-honed facts of corruption, incompetence, public deception, etc.

  Thank you, though, it's at least something I can touch as far as strategy explanations go.

PB

[LeftCoast]

23. I'd like to see them respond as you suggest

I agree, the laundry list of republican failures should speak for itself and silence all critics.

[Lexingtonian]

12. We have lots of trolls here

out to goad those DUers who have some kind of fetishism or fealty to tough talk and insults.

Some people here are just easily suckered into drama queendom by every bit of political theater.

[OzarkDem]

13. Its not DU'ers saying it - GOP disruptors

Its just this week's theme for GOP disruptors on the forum. It has all their favorite villains. Most DU'ers aren' falling for it. The few who are should cool off and find a more important topic to discuss.

This is not an important topic.

[Change has come]

19. I've got to point out...

that not everybody who is worried about this topic is a GOP operative. The stress level is high right now and is only going to get higher. Just wait until the $60,000,000 ad campaigns start.

[Poll_Blind]

26. I would have hoped that the accusations of that nature would have...

...stopped long, long ago, but at least after the Leopold/Truth Out internecine butchery.

PB

[OzarkDem]

27. No, there are lots of them these days

The high post count ones have been really coming out.

[Roxy66]

20. NYT editorial on "Detainee Treatment" hits nail on head.....

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/22/opinion/22fri1.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

"The Democrats have largely stood silent and allowed the trio of Republicans to do the lifting. It’s time for them to either try to fix this bill or delay it until after the election. The American people expect their leaders to clean up this mess without endangering U.S. troops, eviscerating American standards of justice, or further harming the nation’s severely damaged reputation."

[LeftCoast]

22. Agreed!

I'd like to see the Dems take a stand on this. Thanks for the link! :hi:

[Syrinx]

28. K&R

Personally, I'd preferred a somewhat different approach than what Pelosi and Rangel did, but you make an important point.

[sandnsea]

31. It's just a stupid distraction

In the scheme of things, nobody in the course of history will remember that Chavez called Bush satan. What an incredibly stupid thing to get worked up over, especially considering what's at stake. It's like arguing with the 911 operator when your house is burning down.

[mmonk]

33. Yeah, sure. Their behavour is our fault.

:eyes: