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My mother won't be able to vote if voter ID becomes law

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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 12:20 PM
Original message
My mother won't be able to vote if voter ID becomes law
Six months ago I would have said there is nothing wrong with asking voters for ID. Who doesn't have ID? Who is unable to prove who they are? I had no idea how this would affect my own mother.

Then MO passed a Voter ID law. My mother moved from KS to MO just a few months before the law was passed. My mother had not only never missed voting in any election since 1946, she also worked on every presidential campaign since then and canvassed for state and federal representatives. She donated money to every candidate she endorsed. Sometimes it was only a few dollars, but she gave enough and gave often enough that I still remember the mail she got at election time asking for her support. One of my earliest memories is knocking on doors for Kennedy when I was 6. So the political process and supporting candidates has always been important to my mother.

When she moved in March, she asked me to help her get registered to vote. I said okay, where is your driver's license? But she didn't remember what happened to it when she quit driving 10 years ago. So I said well, Mom, I know you have a passport, where is it? She went to the metal box my dad had used for years to store important documents but instead of documents, my mom had put snapshots of her wedding and some of our baby pictures in there. Those pictures are important to her now. Her passport was not and she could not remember where she had put it. She said but I knew I would never go out of the country again, so why do I need a passport? So I suspect the passport was thrown away.

My mother had worked for 40 years for a defense contractor here. Her job was purchasing some of the parts that went into nuclear missiles. Every 2 or 3 years, the FBI came to our house to speak to my dad, interviewed our neighbors and our relatives and declared that my mother was not a security risk so she got to keep her job. Each time she went through a clearance, she received a new picture ID badge that she had to wear to get in and out of the plant where she worked. I can remember playing dress up with her old IDs when I was a little girl. So I asked my mom where her work badge was and didn't she still have several of those lying around. She said yes, she remembered now, my dad had put those in that metal box. But that box only contains wedding pictures and baby pictures now. Those are important to her, her work badge is not.

So I said Mom let's just get a copy of your birth certificate and go from there. She said did you forget, Dear, I was born at home and I have never had a birth certificate. Remember how hard it was for me to get a passport and they said without a driver’s license it would have been really hard to get that passport? No I had not remembered that but 20 years ago when she got that passport I was busy raising little kids. So I said well you were baptized, weren't you? Let's contact the diocese and get your baptismal certificate.

Turns out her church had a fire in the 1940s and many records stored there were destroyed, including - you guessed it - my mom's baptismal certificate. There was also a flood in 1951 so those records were doomed one way or another.

So I decided to contact my mom's state reps. I emailed her congressperson and state senator. Turns out her senator knew my dad and was thrilled to hear from me and promised to help get my mom registered. But without ID, even he hit a brick wall. Her state rep said well you can get a birth certificate if you send an affidavit from a family member or anyone who knew her family when she was born and is willing to verify that your mother was born on such and such a day. But since my mom was both the oldest child and the oldest grandchild, she has no relatives who can verify her birth. Another brick wall.

Then the man who works at the local election board said get a copy of her current voter registration card from KS and maybe the state will accept that as proof of identity. So we did and they didn't. No picture on the voter registration card. We also sent copies of her SS card and Medicare card and Blue Cross card. No luck. They want a picture ID with her birthdate listed.

Four months after my mom first asked me to help her register to vote, we have hit one dead end after another. Bottom line - we can't get Mom registered so she can't vote. She will be given a provisional ballot, which won't be counted since she cannot prove her identity.

Now if anyone thinks this is okay, I want to hear from you. I want to know why it is acceptable to disenfranchise an 81 year old woman whose only crime is being senile enough to lose her drivers license and passport (neither of which she needed anyway).

This is what is wrong with Voter ID. I know for a fact that my mom is not alone. There are estimates of anywhere from 12,000 to 60,000 voters without a picture ID in MO.

So PLEASE, before you go on about nothing wrong with showing ID to vote, remember my mother. She has never been arrested, she has always had great credit, she worked hard all her life and raised 4 kids, she is a life long Democrat, she is the smartest woman I have ever known, and now that she is 81 and should not have to worry about a thing, she can’t vote.

Do you get it now? Voter ID is evil. Please speak out. Copy this post if you want and send it to your Congress critters. Get this legislation thrown out. PLEASE.

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waiting for hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 12:25 PM
Response to Original message
1. That really sucks....
is there nothing else you can do? There has to be some end round route to take this. Yes, I believe Voter ID to be evil and if the Repugs were not running so scared right now, this wouldn't even be an issue.

Wishing your mother all the best.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. No we really are out of luck here
Our only option at this point is to switch the address on her voter registration in KS from her old address to mine. Then she can just go vote in my precinct. But with our luck, that will be illegal.
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waiting for hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #5
11. Probably,
it would kinda be like Ann Coulter's FL situation, and if I read your Mother correctly from your post, she wouldn't go for that. Good Luck!
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #11
32. She already doesn't like that idea.
I am afraid she would go to the polling place and tell them she doesn't really live with me. It is hard to teach a senile person to lie. :)
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stlsaxman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #5
160. Thought a MO Judge overturned the law a couple weeks back...
saying it was an undue burden on the voter.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 08:49 PM
Response to Reply #160
221. Do you watch the news or read a newspaper?
The US Congress passed a National Voter ID bill yesterday.
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stlsaxman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-23-06 07:50 AM
Response to Reply #221
275. no sir, you are correct- i am a fuckin' idiot.
Edited on Sat Sep-23-06 08:16 AM by stlsaxman
in the opening post you mention your mother moving to Missouri from Kansas, and how recently MO passed the Voter ID Act, which i had heard from "the news" AND "read in a paper" had been rescinded by a Missouri judge.

Where in the OP do you mention that "The US Congress passed a National Voter ID bill yesterday"? I must have been an idiot and missed it.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-23-06 10:47 AM
Response to Reply #275
282. Um read the TITLE of my OP
"My mother won't be able to vote if voter ID becomes law"
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Leopolds Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-23-06 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #221
304. Not the Senate, surely? n/t
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-23-06 08:41 PM
Response to Reply #304
322. Oh I hope not
One more thing to work against. Will it ever end? :mad:
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Imagevision Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 08:45 PM
Response to Reply #1
219. Yes but all motor vehicle dept.'s offer photo Id. Card services...
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 08:50 PM
Response to Reply #219
223. And you need to prove your identity to get that photo ID
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greguganus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 12:26 PM
Response to Original message
2. Call your DMV
They issue general picture ID's. Tell them your situation and see if they can help out. I know some states keep driver license records for a while after license has been voided. Good luck.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #2
7. We did that
Her last license was renewed too long ago. And it was not in the same state where she lives now. Moving across the state line really complicated this for her.
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 12:27 PM
Response to Original message
3. Thank you, proud, for providing this example.
I am sorry to read it, though. Your mom must be furious. And just wait until other people wake up to the realization that their one basic right has been taken from them.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #3
9. Thanks sister
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LA lady Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 12:29 PM
Response to Original message
4. There is a solution
Try this:

http://travel.state.gov/passport/services/copies/copies_872.html

Passport Services maintains United States passport records for passports issued from 1925 to the present. These records normally consist of applications for United States passports and supporting evidence of United States citizenship, and are protected by the Privacy Act of 1974, (5 USC 552(a)). Passport records do not include evidence of travel such as entrance/exit stamps, visas, residence permits, etc., since this information is entered into the passport book after it is issue
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #4
10. You gotta prove your identity to get a copy
of your passport.
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LA lady Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #10
18. We went through this here
I helped lots of Katrina victims reestablish identity. They had lost all their papers. It can be done, don't give up.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 12:54 PM
Response to Reply #18
34. Her state rep is still working on it
But I don't hold out much hope.
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AnneD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-23-06 08:49 PM
Response to Reply #34
326. State reps are ok...
Edited on Sat Sep-23-06 08:50 PM by AnneD
but go to your Senator or Rep in Congress. Have the state rep put in a call. In an election year, they are looking for every bit of good will they can. They really love to do this-heck call in the news media. Some folks should be ashamed over this.
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pitohui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #18
40. of course it can be done
Edited on Fri Sep-22-06 01:01 PM by pitohui
there is no way we are getting the whole story, i have seen people re-establish their identity not just after katrina/rita but after the san diego fires also

no way a woman who once had a passport and "good credit" cannot prove she ever lived

how does she get to her direct deposit of social security out of her bank, she has to show ID to do banking!

the story may have been exaggerated for a good cause, but it's still exaggerated

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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 02:16 PM
Response to Reply #40
87. How many times are you going to accuse me of lying?
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galloglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #40
129. Listen to the Lady, Pitohui!
You need to read the whole nasty story?

Read this thread, "The Economics of ShowMe Vote Suppression!" at

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x449427

and if you figure a way out of that trick box, you let us all know.


The best hope Proud2BLib's mom has got is that "Thor" Hearne will, ala "Men in Black", at the Oct. 4 appeal to MO Supreme Court, crack his human skin and have his real roach-self crawl out of his freakin' Armani suit.

Read that thread above. You really owe Proud and her Mom an apology.

This nasty Fascist regime doesn't need Proud to spin it bad. It is rotten to the core.


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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #129
154. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 07:04 PM
Response to Reply #154
169. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Gormy Cuss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 09:05 PM
Response to Reply #169
233. Neither. She is a poster with a unique view.
Sometimes it's obtuse, sometimes it's astute. She has a right to voice her opinion.
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galloglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-23-06 06:36 PM
Response to Reply #233
320. We all have a right to our own opinions, Gormy,
but not a right to our own facts.

Pitohue isn't expressing an opinion. She is uncategorically stating, as fact, that something can be done, when it cannot.

She won't even read the text of the law, or the requirements from our state SoS site, yet asserts that it "can be done". This is so GOP! Using the tactics of blaming the victim.

It's not an opinion to say that people drowned in New Orleans, in Katrina, because they were warned to evacuate and failed to do so. Because the fact is that many were not able to leave because they did not have the means to go.

Blaming the victim, when the facts are available to the poster, is not opinion. It is either ignorance or malice.


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Gormy Cuss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-23-06 06:57 PM
Response to Reply #320
321. We all sometimes confuse opinion and fact, too.
It's against the rules to call out other DUers in certain ways and that was really the intent of my post.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 07:45 PM
Response to Reply #129
174. Thanks galloglas
How ya been doin? Coming to the march on Sunday?

:hi:
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galloglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 07:53 PM
Response to Reply #174
177. Planning on it !
With camera in hand to photograph the photographers!

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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 07:58 PM
Response to Reply #177
181. LOL Did you see the article in The Pitch
about the Cheatums?
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galloglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 08:16 PM
Response to Reply #181
194. No shit? I have the Pitch sitting on the table!
Edited on Fri Sep-22-06 08:18 PM by galloglas
EDIT: Too excited to make the subject make sense.

I'm outta here to read it. I just posted the whole long post from the Economics of ShowMe Vote Suppression AT THE BOTTOM.

Tell these incredulous folks to read the last post I made to your original.

I guess when this bites THEM in the ass, they'll believe!


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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 08:57 PM
Response to Reply #194
230. Yep
The Cheatums are featured in an article about spying on peace activists.

Thanks for your support on this thread. It means a lot :hug:
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Sapphire Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 04:34 PM
Response to Reply #40
147. How many people will it take to personally experience disenfranchisement
... before it is recognized & acknowledged? And just what are we going to do about it at that point, when most of us will have been disenfranchised & will have no right to representation in this gov't 'of the people, by the people, and for the people'?

Unfortunately, people often can't seem to accept anything beyond their own (sometimes very limited) experience... they haven't personally encountered X, so X does not exist. Those people had better watch out, because X is going to come down on them like a ton of bricks.

As Pastor Niemöller said, "First they came for the Communists..."

WAKE UP AMERICA! VOTER DISENFRANCHISEMENT IS REAL. IT IS HAPPENING.

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Leopolds Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-23-06 05:18 PM
Response to Reply #147
307. Americans will always find a reason why Those People Deserved It (tm)
:grr:
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #40
161. You have cast many aspersions but have offered NO solutions
Voter ID and electronic voting are hamhanded GOP maneuvers to disenfranchise voters and steal elections.

No one in their right mind should support either...

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Leopolds Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-23-06 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #40
305. "Good credit" huh? So people without that are sh*t out of luck
Didn't you say the same thing about who could afford to return home? I just love "pragmatists".
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Sapphire Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 12:31 PM
Response to Original message
6. WAKE UP AMERICA! VOTER DISENFRANCHISEMENT IS REAL!!!
proud2Blib, thank you so much for posting this thread, for telling the TRUTH... I hope you have opened lots of eyes!

K & R!!!

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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #6
12. Oh I hope so too
I really do.
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William769 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 12:33 PM
Response to Original message
8. My father was born at Home (actually a shack)
Kentucky still had a record of his birth.

Check out this link http://www.dor.mo.gov/mvdl/drivers/idrequirements.htm

If she can't come up with any of this, then something is seriously wrong.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #8
13. She wasn't born in MO
There is no record of her birth. We have already been there and done that.
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William769 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #13
17. None of this can be had?
"insurance policy, Social Security Administration numident, school records, employment records, and Census Bureau records, etc. The supporting documents should list the applicant’s name, place of birth, date of birth or age at the time the document was issued. Each document does not need to have all of the preceding information but the department needs sufficient information to establish place and date of birth. For example, Military Discharge Papers stating that Mr. John Brown was discharged on March 25, 1945, would not be sufficient since the document does not include Mr. Brown’s place of birth."
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #17
24. She was not born in MO
So they will not issue a birth certificate.
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Dorian Gray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 02:59 PM
Response to Reply #24
112. Then go to the state where she was born.
She should be on record there.

You are getting some good suggestions. All hope is not lost. This type of situation happens more often than we would like to admit. But, with some perseverence, she will be able to get her papers straightened out.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #112
119. Been there done that
She needs an affidavit from a family member who remembers her birth. She is the oldest child so there are no family members who can do this.
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Ms. Toad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-23-06 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #119
297. First,
I agree with you that the voter ID law is evil, and designed to suppress voters likely to vote democratic. I am amazed at how few folks in this thread remember how poll taxes and literacy tests that served the same purpose not so very long ago. (For what its worth - this is essentially a poll tax, given the cost in both time and dollars that obtaining an ID requires (in MO, for example, the cost of the ID was waived - BUT the cost of obtaining the documentation (copies of birth certificates, for example) necessary to get an ID was not), and a literacy test (not measuring traditional literacy, but bureaucratic literacy with regard to negotiating the maze of overlapping bureaucracies one must get through to establish ID).)

That said, you didn't mention what state your mom was born it - Kansas (where she last lived, as an example) has an option of filing a delayed certificate of birth. It does require lots of documentation - but some of it could be available through public records. It specifically permits substitution for the affidavits your mom can't get. Additional documents at least 5 years old can be used (newspaper articles - perhaps coverage of her wedding, coverage of a major birthday (my hometown newspaper in Nebraska would have had lots of folksy articles with this information), census records - there's a link from the website). The state where she was born probably has similar procedures for folks born in the era when home births were more common. Since she got a passport 20 years ago, its possible there is already a delayed certificate of birth on file with the state from that effort - if you haven't checked it would probably be worth it.)

Good Luck!
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roseBudd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 06:54 PM
Response to Reply #112
167. No one should have to perservere to vote when drivers do nothing to vote
Edited on Fri Sep-22-06 07:51 PM by rosebud57
The x demographic doesn't have to do anything. They drive. They roll out of bed and drive to the polling location. The nondrivers have to jump through hoops. That is not equal treatment. This woman really wants to vote. What about the dispossessed marginalized members of society that will just give up? Do they not deserve the same voice as all the people who drive?


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Leopolds Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-23-06 05:23 PM
Response to Reply #112
309. "Her papers straightened out"? SHE'S AN OLD WOMAN. Voting's a HUMAN right.
Not to be denied by officials on the basis of "papers, please".

Sometimes I think we are living in the 1930s when this sort of thing was first popularized.

This is Kafkaesque.
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peaches2003 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #13
125. State of Birth
then contact the Bureau of Vital Statistics in the state where she WAS born. If she got a passport she needed a birth certificate, so they must have a record of it. All we did to get a certified copy of our BC was to write the state where we each were born with our name and birthdates. They don't require a picture ID to get the copy. In fact we applied online.
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CC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 12:36 PM
Response to Original message
14. If she is getting SSA benefits
contact them for a card and a copy of what records/info they have. They should have her recent address for proof of residency and if she is old enough for retirement benefits she is old enough to vote. Then contact the passport office for a copy of her info there for proof of citizenship. Once you have all that it would be worth the time to get a state photo id for her, specially of she might fly anywhere.

Lots more people are going to have the same problem so agree, the photo id to vote sucks.


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ima_sinnic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #14
19. if she is getting SSA benefits, how does she cash the check?
does she have a bank account? didn't she have to show some photo ID to open the bank account? my bank has a photocopy of my drivers license on file.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #19
25. Direct deposit
We take care of all her financial needs anyway. So she never needs an ID. She has been at the same bank for so long I doubt they have a copy of her license but I will call. Thanks for that suggestion.
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pitohui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #25
44. if they don't, they are supposed to close her account
it has been required for some years that you have to have certain proof of the person's identity to provide them with a bank account, in most cases, it's a driver's license

if they don't have proof that she is the owner of the account, then under patriot and other banking laws they should have closed the account, because it could very easily be used as a conduit for fraud, for instance, the usual scam is the lady is dead and some "helpful" relative is taking the money

we all know of such cases, i'm sure


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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 01:32 PM
Response to Reply #44
58. We have an executor who takes care of her finances
So I am sure the bank has HIS driver's license. Since my mother no longer writes checks, they don't need her ID.
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Leopolds Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-23-06 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #44
310. Another law you should have a big problem with
I assume you folks drive, right?

Seems like that Amtrak ticket taker, people think

"This is America -- you're NOBODY unless you have ID."
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ima_sinnic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 12:36 PM
Response to Original message
15. is she registered in KS? just vote absentee there.
if she doesn't have a MO drivers license how would KS know she had moved? she can ask for a ballot to be sent to her c/o you because she is visiting you for a while. but as far as they know, KS is still her "official" residence.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #15
26. I think that is how we are going to proceed
That way she can vote - for now. But with this national voter ID, she is screwed.
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skids Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #26
37. Same trick might apply...

...she could claim she still lives in KS if that helps her get some sort of new photo ID from KS. Then once she has that photo ID, she could use it to get one in MO.

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Pathwalker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 12:39 PM
Response to Original message
16. I have no birth certificate, no passport.
I've sent two requests to the State of Arizona for a copy of a birth certificate, but have never heard back. I was adopted by my maternal Grandparents, and the records were sealed to hide the charges made against my birth father - his condition for surrendering his parental rights, and now everyone involved except for me has died. without taking the matter to court in Arizona, I think I'm screwed.
I've only left this country four times; once to Nagales, Mexico when I was fifteen (40+ years ago), and three wek-end excursions to Canada, the last one being 20 + years ago, and I didn't need a passport then. Can I get a passport without a birth certificate?

I'm sorry to hear your mother's story, and I hope she'll be able to vote.
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ima_sinnic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #16
20. "sending" to the state is kind of passive, why don't you call?
you need to get an individual working on your particular case.
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efhmc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #16
22. If you were legally adopted and not just an informal arrangement, you
can produce those documents as proof of citizenship.
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Pathwalker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 12:54 PM
Response to Reply #22
33. I have no access to those documents - at all.
It was a private adoption, and my Grandmother had all the documents - what happened to them after her death is apparently unknown to anyone in my family. It is "suspected" that an Aunt burned all my Grandmother's documents to hide various family secrets.
And yes, I've called the State of Arizona several times, but they say I have to submit all requests in writing - they can't take a phone request if a birth certificate indicates the person was adopted? Are they just not wanting to bother? I know my son can't get a copy of his birth certificate without my signature (he's adopted), which is why I bought him five copies the last time he needed one.
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efhmc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #33
41. One does need to go in person and get this info. You are right about
that.
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efhmc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 12:42 PM
Response to Original message
21. The county of her birth will have a record. This is how my father got his
first passport (He was born in 1909). Since this information was located once before, it should be available. Take this info to a notary along with any other info (insurance card and social security id.) They should then be able to issue her a nondriving picture id.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #21
28. She has never had a birth certificate
It does not exist.
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efhmc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #28
36. As did my father but there was a record of his birth anyway.
I think it had to do with the census.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 01:31 PM
Response to Reply #36
57. There is no record of her birth
We have been down that road.
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efhmc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #57
61. Well, sorry. I was able to look at the records for that year (actually the
next yearafter my father was born) and even though the court house had been flooded and the items were in ink, I was still able to make out the facts. He was born in the country, at home and his parents lived in that county for a very short period of time. Of course, he had a TDL with a picture id by then and never lived outside of Texas so that made everything easier when he got his passport.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #61
66. My mom was still driving when she got her passport
so not having a birth certificate was not a big deal. I think it would be now though. I know my son needed his birth certificate when he got a passport last year.
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SheilaT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #66
105. To get a passport she
would have needed some sort of proof she was a citizen, not just her driver's license. I suppose after all this time no one can recall what it was, but as far back as I've been using a passport (first one in 1970) you needed at least two forms of ID, one to prove citizenship, generally a birth certificate, and the other to prove who you were, generally a driver's license.

Has the 1930 census date been released yet? If so, she should be recorded there, and that would constitute proof of citizenship. Call a library to find out about the census data. Or the census bureau itself.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #105
117. Thanks I will check into the census data
She did say she had a hard time getting a passport since she had no birth certificate. She was still working then so maybe her work ID was what she used. After all, she did have to prove citizenship to get that ID.

Can I add that this is ridiculous? Going through all of this nonsense just so she can vote? How many people in my mom's situation will even bother? I know my mom wouldn't do all this on her own. She couldn't.
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Leopolds Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-23-06 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #117
311. I love how folks are treating this like a minor practical oddity
When it is a Kafkaesque barbarity, the product of Stalinist thinking.
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galloglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 08:02 PM
Response to Reply #105
182. Yes, the 1930 census has been released. Still...
Missouri is very specific in the codes of the SoS. It list what IS
Census records are not listed! It won't work. Below a cut'n'paste from the thread I cited.

(Again, from the MO SoS page.)

"Here’s What You’ll Need To Do:"

1. Show Who You Are.
ONE of these will do:
* Social Security Card
* Medicare Card
* U.S. Passport
If your name on the card you show does not match your current name, you must show proof of name change on:
* Marriage License
* Divorce Decree
* Court Order
* Adoption Papers

2. Show You’re A U.S. Citizen.
ONE of these will do:
* Birth Certificate
* U.S. Passport, valid or expired
* Certificate of Citizenship
* Certificate of Naturalization
* Certificate of Birth Abroad

3. Show Where You Live.
ONE of these will do.
* Recent Utility Bill
* Voter Registration Card
* Government Check
* Pay Check
* Property Tax Receipt
* Rental Contract for Current Address
* Letter from Postmaster in Last 30 Days
* Government Document Showing Name and Address in Last 30 Days
See, no census!




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Ms. Toad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-23-06 01:25 PM
Response to Reply #182
298. Census might not work directly,
But in some states it (along with other documents) can be used to create a birth record if no original record was filed so that a birth certificate can be issued. Once the birth certificate is obtained, it can be used (with other documents) to obtain a state ID and/or passport - and THEN (after months of hassle and about a gazillion dollars) she might be able to register to vote

Hmm...can anyone say poll tax and/or literacy test?

(But - even though it doesn't lead directly to voter registration, the census records are probably a step along that path.)
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peaches2003 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 03:48 PM
Response to Reply #28
126. Passport
Then how did she get a passport? You said she had lost her passport. She had to have proved identity then.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 07:48 PM
Response to Reply #126
175. She had a drivers license then
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peaches2003 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 07:57 PM
Response to Reply #175
179. Proof of citizenship
She had to have more than a DL to get her passport. You need to have a picture ID such as a DL when applying for a passport, but more importantly you have to prove you are a US citizen with a certified birth certificate or evidence from the state where and when you were born. So there is some kind of record if she had a passport that could be used to get a state picture ID.
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warrens Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 12:45 PM
Response to Original message
23. SS Card and official mail to her address
Also, her passport is on record, even if expired, with that extra picture she turned in. A new one can probably be issued.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #23
29. Gotta have a picture ID to get a copy of your passport
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orleans Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 02:54 PM
Response to Reply #29
109. is it possible to get just a state id card?
illinois has state ids for people who don't drive.

i wonder if you went into the office that provides them with her bank statements, water bills, phone bills, electric bills (and whatever else has her name on it), high school diploma, marriage certificate, and an ENTIRE STACK OF PAPERS, along with YOU and your photo ids--how could they not issue a state id card? and then you can use that and go from there...?

otherwise, maybe your mom could be the poster child for this "poll tax" of photo ids--her background, her government background checks, etc.

shout it to the skies--let people know how disgraceful this is that this woman is about to lose her RIGHT to vote over circumstance.

my mom is 82--i'd be going crazy if this was happening to her.

hang in there. (did you ever think that you fighting the good fight would be for the right for your mom to vote? unreal!)
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 03:27 PM
Response to Reply #109
120. She has none of the supporting documentation
for a state ID card.
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ncrainbowgrrl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 08:17 PM
Response to Reply #120
196. in some locations, a library card has a picture on it.
Since it is issued by an agency of the local government, it is technically a government- issued document.

If the library near her does a photo ID card, this may be the easiest thing to obtain.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 10:04 PM
Response to Reply #196
249. Good pointer
But our local library does not issue photo IDs.
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ncrainbowgrrl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 11:25 PM
Response to Reply #249
263. Bummer! I thought I might have found something there.
I'll keep thinking though.

This thread really got me thinking about a whole array of issues regarding not just voter registration and voting, but other issues associate with aging - and how we treat senior citizens as a whole in this society. Thanks for raising this. I hope you find the magic answer- and soon.

:hug:
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galloglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 08:05 PM
Response to Reply #109
188. Missouri says you need the below
Here.

If you don't have a driver's license, passport, or military ID, here is what Missouri says.

Can you figure a way around this?

(Again, from the MO SoS page.)

"Here’s What You’ll Need To Do:"

1. Show Who You Are.
ONE of these will do:
* Social Security Card
* Medicare Card
* U.S. Passport
If your name on the card you show does not match your current name, you must show proof of name change on:
* Marriage License
* Divorce Decree
* Court Order
* Adoption Papers

2. Show You’re A U.S. Citizen.
ONE of these will do:
* Birth Certificate
* U.S. Passport, valid or expired
* Certificate of Citizenship
* Certificate of Naturalization
* Certificate of Birth Abroad

3. Show Where You Live.
ONE of these will do.
* Recent Utility Bill
* Voter Registration Card
* Government Check
* Pay Check
* Property Tax Receipt
* Rental Contract for Current Address
* Letter from Postmaster in Last 30 Days
* Government Document Showing Name and Address in Last 30 Days




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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 08:24 PM
Response to Reply #188
200. Since that damn Voter ID law was thrown out, we can register her now
I am more concerned about this national Voter ID. Silly me, I thought if I violated my mother's privacy by telling her story here, other DUers would understand how evil Voter ID is. But I am accused of lying and of taking advantage of my elderly mother. Sheesh. I used to love DU. But then it was invaded by non-believers who behave like Rovian repukelicans.
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SoyCat Donating Member (660 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-23-06 12:26 AM
Response to Reply #200
268. Take heart; I believe you--
:hug:

I wish you and your mom the best outcome.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-23-06 10:49 AM
Response to Reply #268
283. Thanks SoyCat
I appreciate that :hug:
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Horse with no Name Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-23-06 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #200
292. I believe you
Edited on Sat Sep-23-06 12:53 PM by Horse with no Name
I have travelled this same road and it isn't as easy to get your hands on the records that people feel you should have at your fingertips.

I think what many people don't understand is the difference in obtaining something that has been expired as to just lost.
With the Katrina victims--most of their stuff was lost, not expired and purged out of computer systems.
There is a huge difference that you wouldn't understand if you haven't been there.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-23-06 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #292
296. Thanks Horse
:hug:
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Recursion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-23-06 04:59 AM
Response to Reply #23
272. Nope
I tried that after I got mugged, no dice. You need an existing photo ID to get a passport that expired over 15 years ago (like mine had).
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William769 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 12:50 PM
Response to Original message
27. Sorry but this thread is becoming very suspicious.
I'm outa here.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #27
31. So you don't believe me?
Gee that's nice. Why in the world would I make this up? :crazy:
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Skelington Donating Member (436 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #31
47. The more I think about it,
no. I think you made this up, or at least "polished it up a bit". It would have made perfect sense if it remained factual, it would of had a point. Gee I hope your mom gets to vote, I'm sure you will get lots of people that will offer you comfort, which was your objective right?
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #47
60. My objective is to illustrate why voter ID is evil
No, I did not make this up. I have several DUers who are good friends of mine and they could verify that I am telling the truth. They have watched me deal with this for months now. So they know it's all true. Should I ask them to come tell you I am not lying? :)

Suddenly I feel like we are sitting in the principal's office and I have to prove I am not lying. :crazy:

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Skelington Donating Member (436 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #60
72. read my other posts,
I think #38, and another one, can't remember the #. the point is valid and makes perfect sense, however your idea of working for a defense contractor for 40 years ordering parts for nuclear missiles, and the casual play, and loss of security badges tells me you are not familiar with how a TS or high security really works. It's a shame you didn't stay focused on your point regarding voter ID, because the story about the security badges sounds like crap to me, and shadows the rest of your point.

No need to go to the principals office, or bring friends to prove you are not lying, if you hadn't jazzed it up for spice you wouldn't have to. Your point is valid, but I don't buy the nuclear missiles and security badges, good illistration but I think you used fact vs fiction to make it seem juicy.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #72
75. LOL no need to juice it up
The real deal is bad enough.
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Skelington Donating Member (436 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 02:14 PM
Response to Reply #75
84. Totally agree,
the real deal IS bad enough.
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evlbstrd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #72
142. I will vouch for proud2Blib.
You may choose to believe her or not. We can't change that, apparently. And what you think really has no bearing on the facts involved. I, too, have had security clearances, and stupid screwy shit happens all of the time.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 07:51 PM
Response to Reply #142
176. Hey evl
Thanks :hug:
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evlbstrd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 08:17 PM
Response to Reply #176
195. Hey, proud
Any time, good friend.
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Gormy Cuss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #60
137. Well, my mother would have been in a similar situation.
Edited on Fri Sep-22-06 04:22 PM by Gormy Cuss
She never drove, never left the country, was never in the military, and never worked for a secure contractor. She did have a birth certificate but what does that prove, other than someone with the name she claimed to have had several marriages ago was born on the day and in the place where she claimed. Her SS check was direct deposited. Her bank account was established before the Patriot Act provisions kicked in. Had she been put in a position to "prove" who she was to the bank it would have required a trip to DMV to acquire a state ID, which would have been issued based on the ancient birth certificate and her declaration alone.

All state-issued photo IDs start from documents that do not include photos or biometrics. All photo IDs can be forged. The slickest crooks have always 'adopted' the identities of others by bluffing with real documentation.

'Proving' who we are by state-sponsored ID papers is more to benefit those who would track and restrict our movements and activities than it is us as individuals.

Under REAL ID, these are the items used to establish eligibility for the ID:
Documentation required before issuing a license or ID card

Before a card can be issued, the applicant must provide the following documentation:

* A photo ID, or a non-photo ID that includes full legal name and birthdate.
* Documentation of birthdate.
* Proof of Social Security Number or verification that the applicant isn't eligible for one.
* Documentation showing name and principal residence address.
* Documentation showing that the applicant is legally present in the US (in other words, is a US citizen or national, is an alien with permanent or temporary residence status or a valid visa, has applied for or been granted asylum, is a refugee, etc.).

The state must verify each of the above documents with the issuing agency. The only foreign document that may be accepted for any of the above items is an official passport.


My mother would have been stumped by the first item. She had not a single piece of "ID" that included her full legal name and birthdate.
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Mabus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #47
127. LOL
As a friend of Proud's I can tell you that her only objective is getting her mom the ability to vote. She sought my husband's help on this issue because he's a practicing attorney. He isn't licensed in Missouri so he helped her as much as he could. But, frankly, there wasn't a lot he could do. He talked to several of his attorney friends on the Missouri side who had also been contacted over voter disenfranchisement because of lack of ID's for either the client or a client's parent. It's a more common problem than you would think.

And it is a problem that I can relate to. I'm not sure what it is about Missouri and no birth certificates but my grandmother was born in Missouri and she didn't have one either. After my grandfather died they (she and my uncles) had to prove she existed to get things like social security and the insurance. One of the hurdles in doing this was that grandma had spent most of her life systematically destroying all evidence of her birthdate. She was three years older than my grandpa and, for some reason, didn't want anyone to know it. She had gone to great lengths to hide her true age most of her life. After most of the relatives died off she started admitting how old she really was. She was in her 80's at the time. Besides, her kids were retiring so it wasn't such a big deal anymore.

From what she told us she had had one job in her life outside the home back in the 1910's but no record of it and the store was long gone. She quit the job when she married my grandfather and was never employed outside the home again. Everything was in grandpa's name, the phone, the house, the water, the newspaper, etc. and before he died grandpa wrote all the checks. She shopped at the corner store and they sent a bill once a month. The only proof of her existence was her name on various documents like her children's birth certificates & their birth announcements in the local paper, reciepts from the corner store and her marriage license.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 07:57 PM
Response to Reply #127
180. ID is definitely a problem for many elderly people
Thanks for sharing Mabus. I can relate. My mother in law worked for only a few months and then got married and never worked again. Her husband took care of everything. She didn't even drive. When he died, she confessed she didn't know how to write a check. She was over 70 years old and had never once in her life written a check.
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Mabus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-23-06 10:25 AM
Response to Reply #180
281. The situation is aggravating
Sometime I'll show you the court records concerning my mom and her lineage. Believe it or not my mom ended up in court trying to prove who she was and how much Indian blood she had. It was a political move by one of her opponents in a tribal election to get her removed from the tribal roll.

Mom was originally elected to the tribal council back in the 1960's (that a court battle that went to the federal courts to get votes counted) and she served many times both as a council member and as our tribal chair. In the 80's a relative of hers who was competing for the same seat decided to contest her blood quantum & therefore her enrollment in our tribe. This meant all of us (me, my siblings and close to 50 relatives of ours) were in danger of being booted from the tribal rolls too. To make a really long story short, mom was vindicated and all of us remained on the rolls. We also got a confirmation that one of my great-great-great (there may be one or two more greats in there) grandfathers was part black and part Crow. In addition, we also got a confirmation that one of my great-great-great grandmothers was a survivor of the Sand Creek Massacre.

One of the hold-ups was that my mom wasn't born in a hospital. She told us her birth was recorded later but we couldn't find records of it. (We finally did find her birth certificate among another relative's stuff about two years after mom died and almost ten years after the litigation). In the end, we all found out we had the same Southern Arapaho blood quantum as was reported on the rolls and that we we had always claimed but less Northern Arapahoe blood (thanks to the part black/Crow ancestor) than we had originally believed. Since we are all enrolled on the Southern rolls it didn't affect us at all. It was just a huge fucking mess for several years that cost us thousands to defend.

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Horse with no Name Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-23-06 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #180
293. Proud
not sure if this is any help or not--but one of my childhood friends (and I haven't had contact with her for many years) is married to--from what I understand through other contacts--the District Attorney out of Springfield. They were pretty close family friends at one time until they moved away.
Would it help for me to try to contact her?
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-23-06 09:42 PM
Response to Reply #293
328. Oh Horse what a nice offer
Since the law was thrown out in MO, we can register her now. But National Voter ID will be a problem. I am hoping we have an ID for Mom by Nov 2008.

I will let you know if I need your help. Thanks for being such a good online friend. :hug:
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Sapphire Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 04:35 PM
Response to Reply #47
148. How many people will it take to personally experience disenfranchisement .
... before it is recognized & acknowledged? And just what are we going to do about it at that point, when most of us will have been disenfranchised & will have no right to representation in this gov't 'of the people, by the people, and for the people'?

Unfortunately, people often can't seem to accept anything beyond their own (sometimes very limited) experience... they haven't personally encountered X, so X does not exist. Those people had better watch out, because X is going to come down on them like a ton of bricks.

As Pastor Niemöller said. "First they came for the Communists..."

WAKE UP AMERICA! VOTER DISENFRANCHISEMENT IS REAL. IT IS HAPPENING.

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galloglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 08:09 PM
Response to Reply #47
190. OK, Here is the whole Goddamned post
If you can't disprove the below, write to PROUD. You owe an apology!


From the thread

The Economics of ShowMe Vote Suppression:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x449427

That, ranchhands, is the title of this thread. Perhaps nothing else fits.

ProgressiveEconomist has suggested that an answer I posted to another thread be started as its own thread.

And, as I like to think of myself as Progressive, but since Economics (as either a profession or academic subject) is Greek to me, I'll split the two halves of PE's handle, submit, but share the floor with them.

So, I give you both the URL of the thread where we ran acoss each other, to be found here, (where PE made many insightful comments, themself)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

AND

both the text of PE's request, and my own Screed (written to a third poster). One which carried enough new and detailed information that PE thought it worthy of its own thread.


First the request, found below, followed by the Screed.


from ProgressiveEconomist:

56. galloglas, this EXCELLENT post deserves its own thread

The "Voter ID" gambit for Republican vote suppression is GENIUS! No armed stormtroopers with armbands, as in Tom Kean's 1981 2000-vote "victory" in NJ. No ChoicePoint biased purges.

Even on this board, progressives who consider themselves well-informed are drinking the Kool-Aid, posting in all innocence, "What? You don't want voters to have to show ID on Election Day?"

Your superb post makes much clearer that's not what the Republicans are doing. We're talking about voters who already are registered and about special IDs that are completely unnecessary, an abuse of the concept of ID designed to discriminate against city-folk, poor people, and the elderly--groups that tend to vote for Democrats.

I like the way your post includes Voter ID cards as an item in a list of unacceptable documents for qualifying for a Special Republican Vote Suppression Photo ID Card!



And now The Screed where PADem2 suggest, perhaps, I doth protest too much. It includes a short answer to a fourth poster who suggested that Photo IDs were a good "paper trail".



48. PADEM2, you need to read this !!

This is posted down page, but most of what it addresses concerns you and your aunt. I ask questions at the end of the post. But I'll start with one.

Did you say what you said as a kneejerk reaction? Or did you know nothing about our Missouri Law? If neither, are you just anti-immigrant?


Here's the post:


(this part to the fourth poster) ]It establishes a "paper trail" to protect against the largely non-existent threat of losing elections to "Voter Fraud" (the GOP frame). But it does nothing to help create a paper trail for the lastest Diebold Cheat-o-Matics.

Btw, here in Missouri, a law passed in late May requiring State Issued VoterIDs. Our SoS got around to announcing the problem to the voter right before primaries. There are 180,000 voter (most all Democratic) who will be affected.

That in a state that could pick up one of the much needed five Senate seats. Yet, guess what? The only place that these can be gotten are at the State License Bureaus which are, after a sale this past year, are now owned by the family of and inlaws of Gov. Matt Blunt (Congressional House Whip Roy Blunt's son). Think they will stay open overtime to help out the elderly, poor, underserved, etc?

Not on your life. The sale makes it impossible for the SoS to compel the license bureaus to accomodate them.(end part to the fourth poster).



As for PA-DEM's suggestion that you, or I,

"Take your 80 year old aunt out for a valid state ID and a nice lunch, for crying out loud! Have her bring a couple utility bills and a social security card and you're good to go."

I have news for them.

Missouri is requiring photo IDs, alright; but a Driver's License, a Passport, or a Military Photo.

How many of our 80 year old aunts are still licensed drivers? Or with valid Passports? Or still active military?

Specifically excluded as IDs (from the MO SoS page) are:

1) Voter Identification Card
2) Utility Bill
3) Bank Statement
4) Paycheck Stub
5) University ID
6) Employer ID

So, if you don't have an ID, here's what the SoS asks you to do (on your lunch with the 80 year old aunt).

(Again, from the MO SoS page.)

"Here’s What You’ll Need To Do:"

1. Show Who You Are.
ONE of these will do:
* Social Security Card
* Medicare Card
* U.S. Passport
If your name on the card you show does not match your current name, you must show proof of name change on:
* Marriage License
* Divorce Decree
* Court Order
* Adoption Papers

2. Show You’re A U.S. Citizen.
ONE of these will do:
* Birth Certificate
* U.S. Passport, valid or expired
* Certificate of Citizenship
* Certificate of Naturalization
* Certificate of Birth Abroad

3. Show Where You Live.
ONE of these will do.
* Recent Utility Bill
* Voter Registration Card
* Government Check
* Pay Check
* Property Tax Receipt
* Rental Contract for Current Address
* Letter from Postmaster in Last 30 Days
* Government Document Showing Name and Address in Last 30 Days


Now, KEYSTONE, if you and auntie get that handled, here's where you go to get those Photo IDs.

(Again, from the Sos Official Page)

You can get a Missouri driver’s license or non-driver’s license at your local Department of Revenue office (average wait time 2 to three hours, without any extra people showing up for IDs). Non-driver’s licenses may be free of charge. To find the license office nearest you, call 866-443-4165 or go to www.dor.mo.gov/mvd/offloc. (There are an average of 1.3 offices per county, statewide! So, average trip would be about 70 miles, roundtrip)

Also, a Mobile Licensing Unit (there are only 4 of them) will travel the state to visit locations accessible to and frequented by elderly and disabled Missourians who cannot visit a motor vehicle license office. These units will provide an opportunity to sign up for photo IDs that will be mailed out later. (any chance of a slipup there?????) To check the schedule, call 866-443-4165 or go to: http://www.dor.mo.gov/mvdl/drivers/voterid.pdf



Now, Keystone, do the math.

These Revenue offices are open year round. They serve an average of 100,000 people per month.

So, in addition to their regular business, you and your auntie, me and mine, and everyone else's, would funnel an extra 180,000 clients a month through their doors (open 8:30 AM to 4:00 PM), tripling their traffic during the four months until the election.

And a GOP Governor's cronies own them, and get no fees for helping you and Auntie. Really think many people are going to get taken care of?

And, BTW, you and your Auntie will be standing in a line for the whole, long time of it. So, is she healthy? Not in a hospital or a nursing home, I hope?

Perhaps you failed to think this through?

Or, possibly, you are also incited to near-riot by the GOP's race-baiting tactics. You know, the Administration and GOP Congress talking (so suddenly) last spring about all those illegal immigrants who used to pick the fruit that now hangs rotting on trees in our orchards throughout the nation? (Just asking, of course)

Do you really think Missouri's plan is workable???
How much time were you planning on spending with Auntie?
Maybe ought to plan to spend about a week on this???


ONE LAST THING for all of the closest xenophobes out there. A question.

Do you REALLY thing this is designed to keep Juan and Jose from south of the Border from voting??

If so, I've got a bridge to sell you. (It stretches from the Alaskan Mainland to bloody NoWhere!)




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Recursion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-23-06 05:01 AM
Response to Reply #47
273. *shrug* get mugged some time
I was mugged 6 months ago and still can't get an ID.

I'm telling you, once you lose your ID there's really not much you can do. Nobody lets you do anything without first proving who you are.
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TX-RAT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #31
130. I agree, this bucket's leaking.
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Sapphire Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 05:03 PM
Response to Reply #130
158. How many people will it take to personally experience disenfranchisement .
... before it is recognized & acknowledged? And just what are we going to do about it at that point, when most of us will have been disenfranchised & will have no right to representation in this gov't 'of the people, by the people, and for the people'?

Unfortunately, people often can't seem to accept anything beyond their own (sometimes very limited) experience... they haven't personally encountered X, so X does not exist. Those people had better watch out, because X is going to come down on them like a ton of bricks.

As Pastor Niemöller said. "First they came for the Communists..."

WAKE UP AMERICA! VOTER DISENFRANCHISEMENT IS REAL. IT IS HAPPENING.

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galloglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 08:19 PM
Response to Reply #130
198. Go back. Read the messages from the MO SoS
then apologize.

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Skidmore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 12:51 PM
Response to Original message
30. Legal type DUers a question about this for you.
Now that this is apparently the law of the land. Can a class action suit be initiated now or does an election actually have to transpire so that someone has been hurt by the law first? Is it enough that people know they must prepare to comply with the law and be able to present to a court how this is a hardship and disenfranchises them?
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AspenRose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #30
78. It's not the law of the land (yet)
It passed the House. It still needs to pass the Senate, and early indications are that it won't.

Georgia, Missouri and a couple of other states have recently thrown out similar state legislation based on its unconstitutionality.
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pitohui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 12:57 PM
Response to Original message
35. i'm afraid i'm not convinced
i am still not understanding why your mother can't get a driver's license, a state identification card, or a passport

i'm sorry, but we have too many stories of dead people voting in louisiana, we have to check IDs

somehow, even tho old people no longer drive or travel and are living in nursing homes, they do manage to get state IDs to prove they are who they say they are and also to prevent their identities from being used by somebody else

all of our courthouses in louisiana and mississippi were burned down too back in the day, by people not wanting it known that they had the "wrong" background, and yet our old people still manage to get state IDs so that they can write checks and cash out at the broker and the bank

you are telling me that your mother cannot write a check at the grocery store or conduct any other business of modern life requiring an ID -- hmmmm

i'm sorry but i simply don't believe we're getting the whole story

voter ID is not evil, inventing excuses that are not true or believable for not having ID is pretty borderline in my humble opinion tho


touching stories need to be at least a little believable in the minds of experienced people or all they do is arouse skepticism instead of concern

in the case of an elderly woman who could not prove her identity, her worry would be her inability to buy food and medicine or pay her utility bill, her inability to vote wouldn't matter much if she were on the street starving to death because she could not access any of her social security funds or bank accounts

i suggest you find out what ID she is using to provide for herself and go from there, a woman without proof that she was ever born and ever existed would not have good credit, a woman with good credit will be able to prove she is who she says she is


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Skelington Donating Member (436 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #35
43. AND,
what about security badges, used to gain access to a secure facility, where she ordered "parts, for nuclear missiles" that were played with, lost or just thrown away? Security ID's don't come in cracker jack boxes, secure facilities keep track of them.

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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 01:06 PM
Original message
I don't use ID for anything
You don't need ID to stick a check in an envelope. You don't need ID to get cash out of your own checking account. I haven't presented my driver's license for any sort of business transaction in years. And my credit is just fine, thank you very much.
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pitohui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 01:09 PM
Response to Original message
46. you do need ID to get cash out of the bank, it's a federal law
Edited on Fri Sep-22-06 01:12 PM by pitohui
to open the account, you had to show certain proof of identity, if you have never provided the bank with certain proof of your identity, then they are required to close the account and cease doing business with you

you are either breaking the law and have been overlooked by some chance or you simply don't remember when you provided the original driver's license or state ID when you opened your account

if your credit is just fine, you will find that you have no problem proving who you are and backing it up with a host of documents

you don't live 81 years and have no paperwork, i'm sorry

the story doesn't pass the smell test

i'm in louisiana, know of too many people in chalmette who lost every document and everything down to the clothes they stood up in, to believe that the lady can't replace these documents and prove who she is -- i know better, sorry


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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #46
50. It's been 10 years
I live in a small town, I don't have to provide ID to deposit or cash a check. Sorry, I just don't. I didn't say I didn't provide ID when I opened the account, but that was ten years ago. If I had let my driver's license expire - I'd be in a world of doo right now. I've got no other picture ID. I do have a birth certificate - in Missouri. I better figure out how to get a copy because mine burned up in a fire. I got my driver's license 30 years ago before all this ID stuff was required. I'm just saying that some of us really don't live the kind of life that requires oodles of ID. And it just isn't as easy to get some of this ID as it used to be. Let one thing expire and I can see where you'd end up with some difficulties because several pieces of ID are required to get a photo ID or driver's license these days.

And can you link to an article about a criminal case where dead people voting was actually proven in court? I hear those stories all the time, but I've never seen an actual criminal case in years.
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pitohui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 01:35 PM
Response to Reply #50
59. since you are completely uninformed and misinformed
no, i don't think i will do your homework for you, if the whole disgraceful history of voter fraud in this country is unknown to you, then you need to educate yourself, there are entire books on usa history and the history of how black votes were stolen in the south once blacks were allowed to vote at all

as for your boast that your bank will allow you to break federal law, that's fine, but i wouldn't continue to brag about it in public because there are portions of the banking secrecy act (nixon), money laundering act (reagan), and patriot act (bush) -- so over 30 years of banking law that require you to provide absolute proof of identity to hold a bank account -- in recent years the law has been much more strictly enforced because of patriot and at some point, perhaps because of a routine audit but perhaps because you don't appear to be very good at keeping secrets, then the bank is going to realize they don't have the right paperwork for you and they will be obligated to freeze the account until you provide it

what you're not getting is that the bank pays the fines, they have no reason to "cover" for you and they won't when they discover that you are banking without any genuine ID -- assuming, of course, that you actually are doing something so pointless and silly

presumably most people in this situation have committed some crime and can't be linked to their real ID, but how limiting, you can't drive, you can never have a passport, once the bank catches on, you can't have a bank account so it's those stupid high fee check cashing places forever -- whatever it was, all i can say is, i hope it was worth it

but the reality is that people who want to prove they are who they say they are can do it perfectly well







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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #59
65. You didn't read anything I said
And since, from past experience, I know you're unlikely to, I'm not going to waste any more time with you.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #65
76. Good suggestion
and thanks for the support sandnsea. :hi:
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #59
67. What voter fraud?
The problem in this country is ELECTION FRAUD, not voter fraud.
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Horse with no Name Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-23-06 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #50
294. I can't remember the last time that I used ID to cash anything
I send my kids to the store with my checks. They even sign them when I am not around.
I can cash a 2-party out-of-state check at the Piggly Wiggly without showing identification.
People who don't live in small towns can't understand that.
And I did let my drivers license expire by a few months unintentionally.
Luckily I know the lady at the DMV.
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ncrainbowgrrl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 08:31 PM
Response to Reply #46
206. Actually, you DON'T need proof of ID to get money out. (2 ways shown)
1) Go to the ATM. All you need is a PIN number and a valid debit card.

2) Go inside to the teller. Use a withdrawal slip and write down the amount of cash that you would like to withdraw. Hand it to the teller. At Wachovia (and I suspect at other banks), you can either show ID, or swipe your debit/credit card that is linked to that bank through the card reader in front of you. Swipe your card through the card reader- like as you would to buy groceries. If this card's linked account number matches the account number on the withdrawal slip, you're golden! Congrats- you now have cash!

:hi:
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alarimer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 10:27 PM
Response to Reply #206
252. I don't get asked for ID when I cash a check at my bank either
Showing them my account (from a check or deposit slip is enough). There is a signature on file and I am sure I had to show ID when I opened the account. But it has been the same at every bank I have used.
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silverojo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-24-06 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #252
342. What dream world do you live in?
Or maybe I should say "nightmare world", because your bank isn't adequately protecting you.

For the rest of us, you have to show your driver's license AND your bank card to cash a check. Otherwise, all you can do is deposit money.
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alarimer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-24-06 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #342
350. I've never had a problem with it
Seems to be standard procedure at every bank I have ever used.
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William769 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 02:25 PM
Response to Original message
96. " You don't need ID to get cash out of your own checking account"
I'd switch banks! :rofl:
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #96
98. They know me
Other people need to present ID if they cash a check on my account at my bank - but they know me and generally don't require ID for me to cash a check. And I'd MUCH prefer they do business based on KNOWING people then relying on phony computerized id bullshit that has done NOTHING to stop ID theft or check forgery or anything else. KNOWING who you're doing business with is MUCH better than any modern technology.
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Gormy Cuss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 04:21 PM
Response to Reply #98
140. Oh, stop making sense.
:thumbsup:

I'm old enough to remember when "knowing people" was the gold standard for ID, when SS numbers weren't issued at birth unless the child was born with a trust fund, when credit card companies insisted that the card be honored without ID, et cetera.

All that the new obsession with IDs has done is complicate our lives without tangible benefit. If IDs were so effective then there would be no credit card fraud or "identity theft." Voter IDs will be just as effective IMHO.
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orleans Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #96
113. i'd switch banks if my tellers couldn't remember who the hell i was
after banking there for ten years!

HAHAHA!
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 07:16 PM
Response to Reply #96
172. I have only lived here for two years
and at my local branch I am never asked for ID. Also ATM cards, you have heard of those I assume, don't require ID's.
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orleans Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 02:57 PM
Response to Original message
111. did i miss something here? who was talking about your credit?
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 03:12 PM
Response to Reply #111
116. yeah you missed something
You missed the entire concept of a discussion board - discussing. :eyes:
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #35
45. I don't use ID for anything
You don't need ID to stick a check in an envelope. You don't need ID to get cash out of your own checking account. I haven't presented my driver's license for any sort of business transaction in years. And my credit is just fine, thank you very much.
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TX-RAT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 04:12 PM
Response to Reply #45
135. You don't need ID to get cash out of your own checking account.
Without presenting a bank card how do they know which account to take it out of?
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #135
143. Write a check for cash???
:shrug:

Do young folks not know how to do that??
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TX-RAT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #143
146. I believe both have an identifying account number.
At least they have for the almost 57 years i've been around. Although that would be nice if they didn't, just write a check and take it out of a random account. I wonder what they'd do with your deposits?
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #146
149. What are you talking about?
Who said anything about bank account numbers?? :shrug:

We're talking about personal photo ID in this thread.
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TX-RAT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 04:42 PM
Response to Reply #149
151. Did you use an ID when you set up your account?
I know i had to.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #151
152. Read the thread
I'm not going through it again.
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TX-RAT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #152
155. I read the thread.
You said you didn't need a photo ID to write a check, which is bullshit, the only reason your could write that check was because it was backed up by a photo ID, when you opened your account. Unless you some how managed to open a checking account without providing a photo ID. And if you did, it's damn sure not a bank i'd trust my money with.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #155
163. Read it again
Because that isn't all I said.
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Maine-ah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-23-06 11:06 AM
Response to Reply #151
286. it depends (I do believe) on when you set your account up.
I have had mine for about ten years, and I never had to show ID to open the account. But now, because of new laws (Patriot Act) you have to show ID to open an account.

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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #35
56. My mother lives in a nursing home
She doesn't have to write checks. Room and board is provided for her. She doesn't need an ID for anything anymore - except to vote.

Yes you are getting the whole story. Fortunately her state reps and an attorney I called DID believe me. :eyes:
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ima_sinnic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #56
64. was she baptised as an infant? a baptismal record is accepted
in place of a birth ceritificate if the bc can't be produced, in many cases.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #64
68. It was destroyed in a fire
Didn't I say that in the OP?
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galloglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 08:24 PM
Response to Reply #64
201. NOPE!
Here is what the MO SoS says is accepted. NOTHING ELSE!

1. Show Who You Are.
ONE of these will do:
* Social Security Card
* Medicare Card
* U.S. Passport
If your name on the card you show does not match your current name, you must show proof of name change on:
* Marriage License
* Divorce Decree
* Court Order
* Adoption Papers


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karlrschneider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 10:52 PM
Response to Reply #201
257. That is rather odd since SS cards are clearly marked with the message
"Not to be used for purposes of identification."

:eyes:
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galloglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-23-06 12:59 AM
Response to Reply #257
270. well, karlr
i'd suggest you take that up with the missouri secretary of state, since she is the one in control.

march that thought of yours right on up to her and tell her how, since you have noticed said verbiage on a social security card, just how freaking odd you find it.

a man of your letters should, at the least, warrant a response from her. perhaps she can, or will, tell you why she is allowing such an "odd" thing to happen.

and perhaps, if you don't like the answer, you could sue her. i'm sure that sharp eye of yours has a sharp wit behind it, so you could figure out on what grounds to use to rectify such an oddity.

now, did you have a point to make?

i mean about those words taken directly from the missouri secretary of states page?

or do you just like the way the eyes work on the rolling eyes smilie face?

they are so good at making a poster look soooo superior to, and sooo dismissive of, other posters.

all that, and without your having to write a single original or intelligent phrase as a rejoinder.

so, karlr, i'd jump right on that secretary's ass about wrongly telling citizens what piece of paper to use as id. fyi, the secretary's office is open monday through friday from 8:30 to 4:30

sic'em, tigger







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karlrschneider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-23-06 11:01 AM
Response to Reply #270
285. Ignored
...
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 07:20 PM
Response to Reply #56
173. Is Medicaid or Medicare paying her bill
both only apply to citizens. Shouldn't that be proof of citizenship? She worked x quarters so she qualified for Medicare. That might be a place to start on this.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 08:02 PM
Response to Reply #173
183. We don't have to prove citizenship (yet)
We are trying to prove identity.
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 08:04 PM
Response to Reply #183
187. You don't have to prove citizenship for medicare
or you don't for the ID? I am not sure I understand you here. Also see my PM. I had forgotten about my needing ID after I quit drinking and it wasn't all that hard amazingly enough.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 09:06 PM
Response to Reply #187
234. For the ID she needs to prove her birthdate
Got your PM. Thanks.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 08:28 PM
Response to Reply #173
202. She pays for it herself
My mother worked hard, saved her money and now is wealthy enough to pay for her own nursing home. She is an upper middle class white woman who will be a disenfranchised voter if this national Voter ID becomes law. And I think the repukelicans believed they would just be disenfranchising poor brown skinned voters. :)
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-23-06 04:04 PM
Response to Reply #202
299. I didn't mean to imply she was poor
heck most middle class people can't afford nursing homes (they are big, big, bucks). She still should qualify for medicare and they should be paying some of her bills. My grandfather was quite well off but he had no compunction having medicare pay for his medical needs.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-23-06 08:45 PM
Response to Reply #299
324. Yes she has Medicare for health care
and another private insurance policy too. But Medicare is not paying for her nursing home.
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-23-06 09:28 PM
Response to Reply #324
327. Then they must know both who she is and that she is a citizen
with the requisite number of quarters of work history to qualify. They should be able to provide you with an affadavit to that effect and that should be enough to get an ID. That would be a good angle to work on I would think.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-23-06 09:47 PM
Response to Reply #327
329. My friend galloglas posted what MO requires:
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-23-06 09:57 PM
Response to Reply #329
330. Given those requirements I can see why this was ruled unconstitutional
I only had to have a DL and a SS card to get my job. The point of those is to prove citizenship and ID. I also don't know what a certificate of citizenship is. Can she get one of those?
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-23-06 11:02 PM
Response to Reply #330
331. I don't know what that is either
LOL

Thanks for your help and support, dsc. :hug:
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-24-06 06:09 AM
Response to Reply #331
333. You are welcome
I wish the help were more helpful.
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michreject Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-23-06 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #56
302. Didn't she need an ID to get in the nursing home?
If she get drug dispensed or has a attending physician, she had an ID. They just don't give drugs to anyone. Illegal.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-24-06 06:16 AM
Response to Reply #302
334. I think that is what her insurance card is for?
I take her to the doctor. They have never once asked for her ID. My doctor has never asked for mine either. Uh oh. My doctor is breaking the law. Better call the cops. LOL
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #35
144. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Skelington Donating Member (436 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 12:59 PM
Response to Original message
38. So your mother worked in a secure facility,
that required her to go through a security clearance check every few years. New ID's were issued, the old ones were never required to be turned in, and instead of keeping track of the expired security ID's she let you play with them, and then just let them be lost or thrown in the trash?

nice. I've spent the better part of my life in, on and around secure facilities, dating back to 67'. I'll guess that the both of you think that nobody really cares, or REALLY is interested in those ID badges.

I'll believe that your mother worked for a defense contractor for 40 years, ordering parts for nuclear missiles because you said so, but your post seems more like a greeting card for attention than reality.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #38
63. The old ones were no good anymore
And no, she didn't LET me play with them. In fact, I got into a lot of trouble for doing that. I guess that is when my dad started putting them in the lockbox he used for important documents.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 01:00 PM
Response to Original message
39. Most people never get a passport anyway
It is true that if she didn't have a birth certificate and had never gotten a passport, she wouldn't be able to vote. They will accept an expired passport as proof of lawful presence, but most people never had them to start with. This would be a problem for some older people. There is another side to this, and that is that getting your original birth certificate isn't all that easy anymore either. You have to have id papers to get that birth certificate in some places, which you may not be able to obtain if they've been lost in fires and such.
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pitohui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #39
54. you notice she had an expired passport
obviously even tho the courthouse had burned down, she was able to get a passport and travel

my in-laws (both of 'em) have no record of birth for same reason, courthouse burned down, yet they had no problem getting a passport and traveling :shrug: it just isn't that hard to prove you are who you say you are assuming you really are

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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 01:49 PM
Response to Reply #54
69. She still had a drivers license when she got her passport
So she didn't need a birth certificate.

You didn't read all my OP, did you? Yet you are trying to tear my story apart. Sheesh.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #54
73. Things have changed
You cannot presume that everybody who was able to get ID or a passport 30 years ago would be able to do so today - the requirements have changed. That'st the point I was trying to make to you above. Establishing your identification OR GETTING A BANK ACCOUNT ten or twenty years ago has nothing to do with establishing your identity TODAY. I didn't need as much ID to get my first driver's license as a person needs to get a photo ID today. If my driver's license expired, I would STILL have my bank account because I had ID when I got it. I don't need ID to get cash and I do all my shopping with cash. I write about 5 checks a month for bills and nobody asks for ID. So it's perfectly conceivable that someone could live quite some time with no photo ID if they didn't drive. Everybody doesn't live their life the way you do.
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Connie_Corleone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 01:01 PM
Response to Original message
42. Vote by absentee ballot. It doesn't require a photo ID.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #42
55. She needs to register first
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Dorian Gray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 03:11 PM
Response to Reply #55
115. She's already registered.
When I moved to NYC from New Jersey, I drove all the way down to the county where I was registered just to vote. I could have sent in an abentee ballot, instead, but I was close enough. Your mother is already registered; she can vote absentee. And hopefully you'll keep working on the problem, as there is a solution out there. There will be papers buried somewhere to sort this all out.

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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #115
122. She is registered in a different state
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karlrschneider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #122
128. So vote absentee in the state she IS registered in.
What's the problem?
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 07:53 PM
Response to Reply #128
178. That is legal?
Isn't mann coulter in trouble for doing just that? Not voting in the precinct where she lives?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 08:16 PM
Response to Reply #178
193. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 09:26 PM
Response to Reply #193
241. I am not making this up!!!!!!
And I resent that accusation.

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karlrschneider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 10:43 PM
Response to Reply #241
256. You have the constitutional right to resent anything you care to.
...
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galloglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 08:30 PM
Response to Reply #178
204. Right. They have your Mom in Gitmo! N/T
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Dorian Gray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 09:19 PM
Response to Reply #122
235. Right...
A different state, as was I. She can do an absentee ballot until you work this problem out. You're making it more complicated than it needs to be. She'll remain on the books at her old address until she registers in her new state. Unless she does that, she can pick up an absentee ballot and vote in her old district. Nor problem!
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Dorian Gray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 09:19 PM
Response to Reply #122
236. Right...
A different state, as was I. She can do an absentee ballot until you work this problem out. You're making it more complicated than it needs to be. She'll remain on the books at her old address until she registers in her new state. Unless she does that, she can pick up an absentee ballot and vote in her old district. Nor problem!
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galloglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 08:28 PM
Response to Reply #42
203. Uhhh..Yes, it would.
You can cast a provisional ballot in MO, but to have it counted, you have to bring back the same photo ID that the Proud's MOM ALREADY DOES'T have.

That was cute of the GOP wasn't it?

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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 10:06 PM
Response to Reply #203
250. Must you call them cute?
:puke:
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baldguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 01:10 PM
Response to Original message
48. The voter ID law is not intended to prevent ineligible people from voting.
"Voter fraud" as the GOP defines it is a non-existent issue.

It's intended to prevent legal, eligible voters - who may not have the resources to acquire & maintain multiple forms of identification - from exercising their right to vote.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #48
70. And it is working!
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galloglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 08:32 PM
Response to Reply #48
207. Thank God! Finally a correct answer !! n/t
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noonwitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 01:12 PM
Response to Original message
49. Well, my grandpa votes twice, so he'll make up for it (sarcasm)
My grandpa started getting absentee ballots about 10 years ago for he and Grandma. Grandma is now in a nursing home, but he casts both ballots anyways. He always votes republican, too, even though Grandma was always a swing voter. She voted for Reagan, but she also voted for Clinton. Sometimes I wonder if he started getting the absentee ballots for the exact purpose of casting Grandma's for her.

I love Grandpa, but he shouldn't get to vote twice. If he's not going to bring the ballot to the nursing home and let Grandma vote herself, he should call the township clerk and have them take her off the voting roles.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 01:22 PM
Response to Reply #49
51. They should be checking her signature
If it doesn't match, they should be disqualifying her ballot.
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pitohui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #49
52. yeah i think this is pretty routine
the nation awhile back had an article on how elders are scammed through absentee ballots, it was one of the great tools for keeping blacks out of public office, they showed for instance how "helpers" in nursing homes "helped" elderly black women who intended to vote for democrats or for the black candidate vote for the enemy

that's how the corrupt mayor of selma remained in office until 2000! haven't any of these people ever wondered about this? my god, my god, MLK was dead a good long time and the crook he marched against remained in power all those years, the nation reporter went back and showed some of the black women in the nursing home that their vote had been cast for this corrupt son of a bitch aga. their wishes and knowledge!

absentee voting is about the most easily corrupted form of voting there is, if people don't have to prove they are who they say they are, then how will the bad guys NOT steal? it's like leaving your front door unlocked and thrown open wide and then being amazed that somebody helps themselves to the new teevee set

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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 01:23 PM
Response to Original message
53. if your mom "HAD" a passport..she should be able to get a new one even if
it expired...or lost..go to your city hall and put in a lost passport form!!

get a new picture of your mom at a passport pic place...and go to your city hall..

say you need the new passport in a rush and pay for the sending of it to you by fed ex..in fact have a fed ex filled out for it to be sent to you..if she had a valid passport and lost it..you should be able to get a new one..even if it was years ago!!

my son had one as a baby..i lost it..when he was in college and was going to go overseas...all i did was fill out a lost passport form..and he got a new one and his was at least 15 yrs expired..

fly
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #53
62. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #62
74. And gee I thought I was just being a good daughter
by making sure all her needs were met. She is in a nursing home that is costing more than my yearly salary. So yes, she is having all of her needs met. She doesn't need an ID for anything. She doesn't need to take money out of the bank or go to the grocery store or pay bills. Until recently, I thought that was a good thing. She is loved and cared for by me, my 3 siblings, a large extended family and the employees of the nursing home.

How dare you come in this thread and accuse me or my family of taking advantage of my mother. How fucking dare you.
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TX-RAT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 04:19 PM
Response to Reply #74
139. How did the nursing home ID her?
If Medicaid is picking up picking up the bill, then they have a way of ID'ing her.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 08:05 PM
Response to Reply #139
189. She is payiing for it herself
Medicare is not paying for her nursing home.
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silverojo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-24-06 02:37 PM
Response to Reply #74
345. I don't know if you're referring to me, but....
<<How dare you come in this thread and accuse me or my family of taking advantage of my mother. How fucking dare you.>>

I wasn't implying any such thing. My point was that your family needed to make sure she had photo ID on her person in case of an accident or injury. When you were saying stuff like you and your mother were *together* looking for various forms of ID, it didn't sound as if she were in a nursing home:

"She went to the metal box my dad had used for years" was in your original post.

I asked someone else about this, and they had the following to add:

Voting would be the least of her children's worries. She can't apply or renew for benefits without ID for Medicare and others according to law. Not to mention in 2008 she'll have to get a national ID card to boot. I would think supporting herself and making sure she gets her entitlments is more important than voting.

GO TO YOUR LOCAL POLICE DEPARTMENT AND ASK FOR A CITIZEN'S ASSIST.


As you said in your post: <<So she obviously had a copy of the birth certificate, but apparently she tossed that in the dumpster, too...along with her baptismal certificate and everything else important.>>

By doing that, she literally killed herself, bureaucratically speaking, by destroying every vestige of her existence. How can you blame a voter ID bill for this? If she'd been robbed, or if her house had burned down, that's a different situation. But how can Congress protect your mother from herself?

What's going to happen when she dies? How are you going to prove who she was, and her relationship to you? What will happen to the insurance money, or anything else her children will inherit?

As the person I talked to said, registering to vote is the least of your mother's problems right now. See if the citizen's assist idea will work...and please, don't blame the system for something that's not the system's fault at all.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #62
131. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #131
132. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 05:00 PM
Response to Reply #62
156. what???pitohui? how did you go from getting a passport to some weird
crap??

2proud..ignore that...you are a wonderful daughter..that is evidenced by all you are doing to help your mom..
i am sure your mom is very grateful and very proud of you...i sure would be!!

fly
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WhollyHeretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 08:02 PM
Response to Reply #62
184. WTF is wrong with you?
Absolutely disgusting behavior. You're slinging accusations of lying and abuse with no reason.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #53
71. They asked for an ID
before they would replace her passport.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 02:45 PM
Response to Reply #71
103. Yes they do
You're right about that too. A person whose birth had not been registered and had lost all other paperwork in a fire would be unable to prove identity in today's climate.

http://khartoum.usembassy.gov/initial_passport_and_replacements.html

I really thank you for this thread because I need to get my original birth certificate before some unforeseen circumstance makes it impossible for me to get it. Especially since I was born in St. Louis, yikes!
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #103
123. Good luck!
I was born in MO too and had no problem getting a copy of my birth certificate.
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Sammy Pepys Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 02:02 PM
Response to Original message
77. There's nothing wrong with showing an ID to vote...
In fact, I think it makes our system that much stronger.

I'm sorry your mom is experiencing such difficulty, but honestly this all her own fault. Picture IDs have been a necessity for a lot of things for a long time now.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #77
80. She is not alone
There are estimates of from 12,000 to 60,000 people in MO who have no picture ID. So no, picture IDs are NOT a necessity for everyone.

I met a woman recently who was part of the lawsuit filed to get the voter ID law overturned in MO. She is disabled, cannot walk and does not drive. She is 35 years old and has never had a drivers license. She lives in a care facility so she does not need to shop or pay bills or rent.

Not everyone lives under the same rules you do.

Voter ID would be a great idea if voter fraud was a problem. But it's not. The problem is election fraud. Voter ID is just a smokescreen.
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Sammy Pepys Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 02:10 PM
Response to Reply #80
81. Are you absolutely certain that she can't get a state-issued ID?
Have you checked with the local DMV or state government on the standards required to acquire a driver's license or even just a state issued picture ID?
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 02:15 PM
Response to Reply #81
86. Yes we have
You need a birth certificate to get a state ID. Since my mom is elderly, they will accept her drivers license from another state or her passport instead of a birth certificate. But we have none of those.
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Sammy Pepys Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #86
88. Missouri, right?
I think you might find this helpful:

http://www.sos.mo.gov/elections/photoid/
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #88
90. Yes I know - the law was overturned last week
But it is being appealed and if this national voter ID becomes law (as my title says) she can't vote.
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Sammy Pepys Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 02:24 PM
Response to Reply #90
95. But it doesn't become law until 2008...
...if it passes.

IF she has a credit rating, a social security number, health insurance and has had a driver's license in the past you should be able to recover enough info with a little effort to get a photo ID for her by then. After all, people lose things like driver's licenses all the time and are able to get those replaced without much hassle.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 08:19 PM
Response to Reply #95
197. We have been working on this for months
and have spent countless hours and some money too trying to get this done. Do you know what a poll tax is? Do you know it is illegal (supposedly)?

Until you have walked in these shoes, I guess you just can't understand. Registering to vote should not be this difficult. Not in my America.
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silverojo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-24-06 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #197
347. Here we go again....
<<Do you know what a poll tax is? Do you know it is illegal (supposedly)?>>

There's no "poll tax"--it costs nothing to vote.

<<Registering to vote should not be this difficult. Not in my America.>>

LOL, try applying for disability! Not only is it infinitely more difficult, but you also have to put up with administrative law judges verbally abusing and humiliating you in the courtroom. At least people are trying to help you, in real life and on this forum.

Look, why do you keep blaming the government and lashing out at other people, for a problem your mother brought upon herself? I've been trying to give suggestions and talking your problem up with other people who might be able to help, but your "it's everybody else's fault" attitude is getting to be more than I can tolerate.
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galloglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 08:42 PM
Response to Reply #95
217. NOPE! WRONG AGAIN!!
The 2008 date is for the Congressional House bill # 4844.

Missouri's law is effective in the upcoming election.


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Sammy Pepys Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #86
89. And by the way....
This bill imposes new ID requirements on all voters in federal elections: 1) Starting in 2008, voters would have to present a government-issued photo ID, or send in a copy when voting absentee or by mail, before getting a ballot; 2) Starting in 2010, the ID would also have to show proof of U.S. citizenship. This would likely mean either a U.S. passport or the "REAL ID" card, which has yet to be implemented.

http://www.sitnews.us/0906news/092106/092106_voter_id.html

Sounds like you've got some time to get this figured out.
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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 05:03 PM
Response to Reply #89
157. gosh i feel like i am in the old USSR...this is no longer America
land of the free and the brave!!

i feel like we are land of the prisoners..when do we get our stars..and striped uniforms??

fly
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alarimer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 10:28 PM
Response to Reply #157
254. Your papers, please
Just a short step away from that.
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galloglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 08:44 PM
Response to Reply #89
218. WRONG!! ONCE AGAIN, WRONG!!!
See previous answer to decidedly un-Pepyian thoughts.

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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 08:52 PM
Response to Reply #89
226. And that is okay with you?
Gee should I just take a leave of absence from my job so I can deal with this hassle of getting my mom registered to vote? Just how much trouble is too much? How much time should this take?
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galloglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 08:41 PM
Response to Reply #81
215. This is what she is required to do.
Figure it out and get back to us.

Hell, even get past #1 and get back to Proud.

From the office of the MO SoS:

"Here’s What You’ll Need To Do:"

1. Show Who You Are.
ONE of these will do:
* Social Security Card
* Medicare Card
* U.S. Passport
If your name on the card you show does not match your current name, you must show proof of name change on:
* Marriage License
* Divorce Decree
* Court Order
* Adoption Papers

2. Show You’re A U.S. Citizen.
ONE of these will do:
* Birth Certificate
* U.S. Passport, valid or expired
* Certificate of Citizenship
* Certificate of Naturalization
* Certificate of Birth Abroad

3. Show Where You Live.
ONE of these will do.
* Recent Utility Bill
* Voter Registration Card
* Government Check
* Pay Check
* Property Tax Receipt
* Rental Contract for Current Address
* Letter from Postmaster in Last 30 Days
* Government Document Showing Name and Address in Last 30 Days
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Connie_Corleone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 02:14 PM
Response to Reply #80
85. But the Voter ID law was ruled unconstitutional last week in Missouri.
It's back to the old requirements now on the Missouri secretary of state website.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 02:22 PM
Response to Reply #85
92. Yes I know
Do you know what the US House voted on yesterday? That's why I posted this.
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galloglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 08:50 PM
Response to Reply #85
222. And appealed to the MO Supreme Court yesterday
The oral arguments will be heard on 10-4.

The AG has asked for a decision before the election.

Until then the Driver's license bureaus are offering no free IDs (for those, unlike Proud's Mom, lucky enough to have the necessary documents) to those who have no "Missouri Acceptable" Photo ID.

So, that 200,000 largely Democratic voters left hung out to dry until... well, you tell me when?? Before November 8?? :shrug:


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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-24-06 06:22 AM
Response to Reply #222
335. It could be MO's October surprise
:mad:
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silverojo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-24-06 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #80
346. This is what photo ID is for
<<I met a woman recently who was part of the lawsuit filed to get the voter ID law overturned in MO. She is disabled, cannot walk and does not drive. She is 35 years old and has never had a drivers license. She lives in a care facility so she does not need to shop or pay bills or rent.

Not everyone lives under the same rules you do.>>

Y'know what, I'm disabled, and I had to have my birth certificate, Social Security number, and driver's license, when I applied for benefits. So I know a thing or two about living by those rules. Just because I can't drive anymore, I'm sure not going to throw away my license; when it expires, I'll get a state photo ID.

I have a friend in California who has multiple disabilities, has never driven, so he got a photo ID from the state.

Every state makes photo ID's available to people who don't drive; that's what state photo ID's are specifically for. The woman you're referring to could easily get a photo ID, and her problem would be solved. Shelling out ten bucks or so for ID is a lot cheaper than hiring a lawyer, too.

States provide this service specifically for those who don't "live under the same rules".

The rule everybody needs to live under is: It's the 21st century. You need photo ID, whether you drive or not.
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galloglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 08:38 PM
Response to Reply #77
212. It is unconstitutional.
Among other things, it contradicts ex post facto.

I suppose, if this had been brought up in 1800 or, you'd have everyone get a new portrait painted?

Come on.

Samuel Pepys was a bright fellow, so why don't you follow his example?

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Moochy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-23-06 06:22 PM
Response to Reply #77
318. Lies damn lies
Cite one example of an election being swayed or affected by examples of this nefarious boogeyman the individual act of voter fraud?

If not the shut up and quit trotting out these sad sorry lies.
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JoDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 02:05 PM
Response to Original message
79. you may have already tried this...
But in case you haven't, you may be able to get a state photo ID from the DMV. They have nothing to do with driving and are not a license. I got one in Illinois while my driver's license was, ahem, spending some quality time with the local police following a speeding ticket. I was able to use by SS card and a utility bill to prove who I was. Since she has her SS card and a Blue Cross Card, they may accept that as sufficent ID.

I'm sorry to hear that you're having this problem. You're quite right, your mother shouldn't have to worry about anything at this time in her life, and she's darn lucky to have a kid like you to help out. If the politicians of this country are bound and determined to have these voter ID laws, they need to have safeguards built in to them or risk millions being left behind. Of course, that presumes that the politicans want everyone to be able to vote.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 02:13 PM
Response to Reply #79
82. She needs supporting documentation
to prove her identity before she can get a state ID.

Thanks for the kind words.
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peaches2003 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 08:23 PM
Response to Reply #79
199. Medicare
Her Medicare card - there would have had to be proof of age when she got her Medicare card, so there is a record somewhere through the state of her birth. That along with her having a SS card and at one time having had a passport certainly proves there is the existance of her identity.
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galloglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 08:55 PM
Response to Reply #199
229. Missouri requires this
from the SoS official web site]


2. Show You’re A U.S. Citizen.
ONE of these will do:
* Birth Certificate
* U.S. Passport, valid or expired
* Certificate of Citizenship
* Certificate of Naturalization
* Certificate of Birth Abroad


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galloglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 08:53 PM
Response to Reply #79
227. Uhhh.. No... Doesn't work
This is number #2 on the SoS board

2. Show You’re A U.S. Citizen.
ONE of these will do:
* Birth Certificate
* U.S. Passport, valid or expired
* Certificate of Citizenship
* Certificate of Naturalization
* Certificate of Birth Abroad

I think Proud's mom has none of these. So, even if she gets past step #1, step #2 eliminates her.


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dkofos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 02:13 PM
Response to Original message
83. Try having her register as a republican
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #83
99. LOL She lived in Kansas all her life
and probably was registered as a republican. I was for years until just recently. It makes primary voting more interesting :)
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dkofos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #99
102. But did she tell them that she is repub??
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 02:54 PM
Response to Reply #102
110. Many politically active voters in Kansas
register as republicans. I did for years. So I would bet my mom did too. But we are both Democrats.
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SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 02:21 PM
Response to Original message
91. If you call the passport office nearest you, they probably
can trace her old passport number. They are unique numbers, assigned to people, and somewhere...there exists a record of her passport number.. Once located, they can re-issue a new one if she takes a new photo..

It might not be in time for '06, but surely by '08, she'll be back in business...

Siince she had no birth certificate, and it was so hard to get the passport, I doubt that she threw it away.. It's tucked away somewhere,.. People forget all the time about safety deposit boxes they may have at banks (if there's no cash in them :evilgrin:..)

You might contact banks she used to bank at..maybe they have one in her name that she forgot about ..

Good luck with your treasure hunt .. I hope you find what she needs.. She'll probably need ID at some point, if she collects Social Security or ever needs government help.. Better to have it and not need it, that the other way around..

We had a hard time with my husband's birth certificate.. the passport people sent it back saying it was not "official"...so with the Tahiti trip looming, we had to call Kansas and start the ball rolling to get one the passport people would accept.. The passport arrived with a day to spare before we left ...whew!



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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 02:42 PM
Response to Reply #91
100. The passport office wants an ID
before they will give out a duplicate passport.

Good idea about the safety deposit box, though. My dad was always so organized. I would bet he did have a couple sd boxes in banks.
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SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 02:45 PM
Response to Reply #100
104. Years ago when I worked at a bank, we had boxes that had no activity
for DECADES... :( Probably someone got one, and then forgot all about it..Every so often the state banking people would show up, and with paperwork in hand, they would open the oldest ones, and it was amazing to see the stuff in them.. old stock stuff, insurance policies, kids' school records..

If they could trace the people, they would send a letter..If not, I guess it was all taken away and stuck in a big box somewhere :(
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Igel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 02:22 PM
Response to Original message
93. When did your mother retire?
If it was after '86, and the defense contractor isn't good about clearing out their records ... remember, the CYA move when completing I-9s is to photocopy the ID. Drivers licenses are prime targets for photocopiers among low-ranking HR folk.

It's also possible that the DMV in KS will still have her information on file; call, explain, and see if there's any way to have an ID issued based on the old information on file. Don't know about KS, but a lot of states started taking digital photos back in the '80s, and they may still have her info on file. (It's not a great idea; I couldn't get the NY DMV to cough up my old drivers license number ... you are your number, and the only way they'd give it to me is if I could prove that I was me by providing the number I was asking for.)
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #93
101. The company she worked for has been sold
and another contractor now runs it. When I called, they said they had no records of employees hired as long ago as my mom was (late 1940s or early 1950s).
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IdaBriggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 02:23 PM
Response to Original message
94. So, you are okay with any Republican in a mood who wants to
impersonate your mother voting in her place? That is the other option, and the problem the Voter ID law is attempting to address. I am not saying it is doing it in a perfect way, but it is trying to solve a REAL problem. Sigh.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #94
106. I don't know how they would impersonate her
Edited on Fri Sep-22-06 02:48 PM by proud2Blib
She has no ID. She can't prove she is who she is, how can anyone else say they are her? :)

And sorry but I just don't buy voter fraud as an issue. It is not a problem. Election fraud is. Of course, if we distract everyone with this voter fraud non-issue, then no one will know that our elections are fraudulent. :)
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IdaBriggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-23-06 05:51 AM
Response to Reply #106
274. I'm sorry for the problems, but unfortunately, fraud is an issue.
Its not exactly brain surgery to walk up to a poll book with a frazzled election worker, casually glance over the book, pick a name that hasn't been highlighted yet, and announce you are "that" person. Each state has a different method for making sure you are who you say you are (Michigan has a triple check system, with no photo id required, but you have to write your own address down, and the poll workers double check it), but not every state does the same thing.

Personally, I believe this is a bigger problem with "absentee" voting -- as in, its very easy to "stuff" the ballot box with an extra ten or twenty "absentee" straight party votes by highlighting a few names in certain states which shall be nameless. One "enthusiastic" poll worker can generate a bunch of "straight party" votes very easily, especially when things get busy, and "stack up" if you know what I mean.

Its too bad you don't live in New York. A valid state id was generated for a friend of mine for $20 after he left his wallet at a rest stop, and needed photo id to get on a plane to return home to Michigan. Begging and pleading with everyone finally led us to a nice man who made him a valid resident of the state of New York for $20 -- $5 more and he could have had a driver's license. I wanted to get one myself, but my husband was being a cheapskate. Of course, this was all prior to 9/11, but its really too bad you don't know anyone who can do a "fake" id -- in good humor, of course! :)
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-23-06 05:40 PM
Response to Reply #274
312. Where is this happening?
Link?

Sorry but I don't see this as a problem.
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IdaBriggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-24-06 10:10 AM
Response to Reply #312
340. Give me a break. This type of crap happens all over the place.
I'm sure that sometimes its "an accident" (as in human error') and sometimes its an "on purpose" (as in intentional fraud). There are tens of thousands of reported problems in the "reported problems" lists all over the internet. Feel free to google it. And just the fact that its an easy, common sense problem to fix doesn't mean it should be ignored. Its not necessarily the biggest problem we face with election fraud, but its one of those 'common sense' problems that should be easily fixable in a way that DOESN'T disenfrancise voters like the original poster's mother, or become a poll tax.

:shrug:
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Moochy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-23-06 06:26 PM
Response to Reply #274
319. And you are relying on what besides your faulty intuition
"Personally, I believe this is a bigger problem with "absentee" voting -- as in, its very easy to "stuff" the ballot box with an extra ten or twenty "absentee" straight party votes by highlighting a few names in certain states which shall be nameless. One "enthusiastic" poll worker can generate a bunch of "straight party" votes very easily, especially when things get busy, and "stack up" if you know what I mean."

You beleive this ? really? Then cite one example or stop making up shit to justify your fanciful beliefs.
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IdaBriggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-24-06 10:05 AM
Response to Reply #319
339. Wow -- common fricking sense is now considered "making up shit."
While I appreciate the fantasy world you are living in, where everyone is honest and trustworthy, the rest of us have to live in the "real one" where there are unethical people who do stuff like "steal other people's identities" for fun and profit. There are ALWAYS reports of people showing up to vote who've been told they already voted, and if you want to spend the time googling, go for it. This is a "common sense" problem, and I would appreciate it if you would quit treating it like it wasn't A PROBLEM.

Instead of being obnoxious and insulting, why not try to come up with ways of fixing the problem that don't disenfranchise voters? And quit pretending that just because YOU can't be bothered to spend time actually investigating anything, someone who was actually INVESTIGATING THE 2004 ELECTION didn't see stuff that I don't always want to repeat OVER AND OVER AGAIN.

With tens of thousands of reported problems in 2004, you search the drattable lists instead. In the meantime, this is a "no brainer" problem -- find someone to make sure the ballot boxes don't get "stuffed" (paper or otherwise), and make sure the folks who are voting are the people they say they are. Do it in such a way that good people like the original poster's mother don't get disenfranchised, and it doesn't become an illegal poll tax. But stop pretending it "doesn't happen" because IT CAN. And if *I* think there is even a possibility of it being a problem, then FIX IT because I'm one of those "crazy voters" who want GOOD CLEAN ELECTIONS.

Like it or not, election fraud didn't start with the invention of computers -- computers just made it "easier" for fewer people to do it, in a more timely and efficient way. And start using the brain you've been given to SOLVE PROBLEMS instead of being in denial that things like that happen.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 02:52 PM
Response to Reply #94
107. Link please
I know that in years past this was claimed to be a problem, maybe it was with paper ballots and all.

But I haven't seen an actual court case, in at least 20 years, where someone was actually found to have voted in someone elses place, or where someone showed up to vote and there was a fraudulent signature that disqualified the actual voter. I want to see this and if people can't validate this claim, they need to stop making it.

I'm getting a little tired of all this right wing "conventional wisdom" that isn't based on anything except old time spin. Kind of like JFK stealing the election - but nobody ever mentions the shenanigans with Nixon.

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roseBudd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #94
118. Nobody is impersonating other voters and signing a poll book right next
to another person's signature while a poll worker watches. This is so impractical I can't believe anyone imagines that this is a viable method of election fraud.

I thought only repubs were delusional.
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galloglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 08:58 PM
Response to Reply #94
231. Ida, Ida, Ida, I'd a thought you'd known better!
I am not saying it is doing it in a perfect way, but it is trying to solve a REAL problem. Sigh.

Suppose your right, though.

That is if the problem is more Democratic voters than GOP voters.

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Moochy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-23-06 06:19 PM
Response to Reply #94
317. Straw Man says
Do nothing! What a ridiculous argument you are attempting to make.

Show us, an example of Voter Fraud where this is something to fear. or please stop trotting out these sad and sorry lies.
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Tactical Progressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 02:28 PM
Response to Original message
97. I believe you make a valid point
The security badge thing sounds a little hokey. They would have required old badges to be turned in before issuing new ones in all likelyhood. What kind of secure facility would systemically allow old badges out in the world in an ever increasing number?

But your overall point is well made. Even if, as others here have suggested, there are ways, increasingly complicated, to get back on the valid ID bandwagon, how many people are going to go to all the trouble you've already gone to in getting re-issued birth certificates, passports, drivers licenses etc just to vote? It may not ultimately stop you from finding a way to get your Mom's ID re-instated, probably by a judge, if you are really committed, but it will be a hurdle that many people won't have the time and or money, or someone willing to act in their behalf, let alone the effort and frustration, to overcome.

We are caught in a time between scant paper identification and everything being electronicized. It will probably last more than a generation. Any voter-ID system should have provision for getting ID's quickly and with little effort. You could maybe contact the ACLU. They might even want to make an issue out of one of these cases. Identity is a fundamental civil liberty in my mind.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 02:53 PM
Response to Reply #97
108. Yes it is way too much trouble to go to
Voting is a right and it shouldn't be this hard to register.

As for the badge, IIRC it had a date on it like a drivers license. So it expired. It was no more valid than an expired drivers license. And my dad did put them in his lockbox so nothing would happen to them. Once drivers licenses were no longer paper, he put them in his box too when they expired. (He used to burn his expired paper drivers license) Now I believe the state here keeps your expired license when you go to renew it.
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galloglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 09:03 PM
Response to Reply #97
232. About ACLU
If it had not been for the ACLU representing Missouri voters, Judge Callahan would have not had the chance to find it unconstitutional.

They will be there as a party to the arguments on the appeal 10-4.

But , GET A CLUE!

Do you folks really think 200,000 people were given 4 months to get IDs because of the threat of "macacas" voting??


After all, that is what all this fire and brimstone is about, isn't it?


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theHandpuppet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 03:01 PM
Response to Original message
114. Same with my mom
She's soon to be 88 and because her hands are badly crippled from arthitis, she can no longer drive. Her mind, however, is sharp as a tack. So if she cannot provide a valid driver's license with a photo ID she will not be allowed to vote for the first time in her life? This is bullshit!
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peaches2003 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #114
133. State ID
She doesn't need a DL. Every state will provide a picture ID which is not a DL.
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kestrel91316 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 03:29 PM
Response to Original message
121. proud2belib: I sent you a PM
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 03:38 PM
Response to Reply #121
124. Thanks!
You are wonderful.
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lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 04:10 PM
Response to Original message
134. K&R
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galloglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 04:13 PM
Response to Original message
136. STOP IT!! LISTEN TO PROUD!! THE PROOF IS HERE!!


You need to read the whole nasty story? Then READ IT!!

Read this thread, "The Economics of ShowMe Vote Suppression!" at

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

and if you figure a way out of that trick box, you let us all know.


The best hope Proud2BLib's mom has got is that "Thor" Hearne will, ala "Men in Black", at the Oct. 4 appeal to MO Supreme Court, crack his human skin and have his real roach-self crawl out of his freakin' Armani suit.

Read that thread above. You really owe Proud and her Mom an apology.

This nasty Fascist regime doesn't need Proud to spin it bad. It is rotten to the core.

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FILAM23 Donating Member (344 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 04:14 PM
Response to Original message
138. I'm very sorry what happened to your Mom
but this happened under existing laws. I still support
proof of citizenship.
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galloglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 04:21 PM
Response to Reply #138
141. Didn't happen underexisting laws!!
This is part of the GOP strategy )as HR 4844 is).

Passed last spring and is unconstitutional!!

Jesus, where are all of these Freeper-like attacks coming from??

Just Kompassionate :puke: Konservatives????


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FILAM23 Donating Member (344 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #141
145. I stand corrected
but I still support proof of citizenship
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galloglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 07:01 PM
Response to Reply #145
168. Yeah, that's fine, BUT
Missouri's law (if you read the thread I sent) is written so tightly that many older people could {b]NOT prove citizenship under Missouri's proposed law.

Missouri has had a total of 3 voter convictions for "voter fraud" in the last six years. This law is NOT meant to insure only citizens vote. It is to pare the roles of Democratic voters by 15%.

And it pisses me off that the GOP, in MO and federally, are implying that it is meant to keep "illegals" from voting.

It is fucking racist. Pure and fucking simple. Playing out the fears that were stirred in America's (now) virtually non-existent "middle class".

They GOP plutocrats have embezzled the Public Treasury and, pockets overflowing, point to poor ole Juan and Jose and "Macaca took your money."


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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 08:31 PM
Response to Reply #145
205. And when we need show our papers to da man
I suppose you will support that too.
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Sapphire Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 04:38 PM
Response to Reply #138
150. How many people will it take to personally experience disenfranchisement .
... before it is recognized & acknowledged? And just what are we going to do about it at that point, when most of us will have been disenfranchised & will have no right to representation in this gov't 'of the people, by the people, and for the people'?

Unfortunately, people often can't seem to accept anything beyond their own (sometimes very limited) experience... they haven't personally encountered X, so X does not exist. Those people had better watch out, because X is going to come down on them like a ton of bricks.

As Pastor Niemöller said. "First they came for the Communists..."

WAKE UP AMERICA! VOTER DISENFRANCHISEMENT IS REAL. IT IS HAPPENING.

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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 08:14 PM
Response to Reply #138
192. No it did not happen under existing laws
Before the Voter ID law in MO was passed, she could have easily registered to vote. Thank God it has been thrown out now. But if this national Voter ID law is passed, she won't be able to prove her identity so she won't be able to vote. And even if we can eventually get identification for her, why in the world is it okay for anyone to have to go to this much trouble to exercise their right to vote? Did you read my OP? We have been working on this for months! So she can vote!! My dad was a US History teacher and he is spinning in his grave right now, knowing his wife is having this much trouble getting registered to vote.

If you can't see the problem here, I can't help you.
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jwirr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 04:51 PM
Response to Original message
153. Try to find you parents marriage certificate. They often have
a lot of info on them. Also the church they were married in if they were might have what you need. This is terrible - hopefully the SCOTUS will strike these issues down but for this election we need to help the people who have to provide evidence. I would suggest that we do something in each state through the Democratic Party. Polling should identify the people who are having trouble and we should have a hot-line to suggest ways of helping.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 08:33 PM
Response to Reply #153
208. We have their marriage license
but it doesn't have her birth date on it.
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galloglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 09:20 PM
Response to Reply #153
238. And the marriage license is...
not acceptable under Missouri law because then Proud's Mom is faced with hurdle #2, anyway.

from the MO SoS website

"Here’s What You’ll Need To Do:"

1. Show Who You Are.
ONE of these will do:
* Social Security Card
* Medicare Card
* U.S. Passport
If your name on the card you show does not match your current name, you must show proof of name change on:
* Marriage License
* Divorce Decree
* Court Order
* Adoption Papers

2. Show You’re A U.S. Citizen.
ONE of these will do:
* Birth Certificate
* U.S. Passport, valid or expired
* Certificate of Citizenship
* Certificate of Naturalization
* Certificate of Birth Abroad



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w4rma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 05:05 PM
Response to Original message
159. I wonder if this is the real reason they made it much harder to get a DMV
Edited on Fri Sep-22-06 05:08 PM by w4rma
license/ID? After 911 they made it much much tougher to get IDs from the DMV.

I really don't think that the Republicans had security in mind when they did this considering their stand on other homeland security issues, like money diverted to protect petting zoos from terrorism, nothing (except stonewalling) done on port security, very little done on nuclear power plant and chemical plant security.
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galloglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 09:25 PM
Response to Reply #159
239. Sure.. But Missouri is worse
In the two years since Matt Blunt has been Governor, he sold off the main DMV offices to friends, cronies, relatives and political hacks.

Think they (strong GOP people) are going to stay open late to accomodate the old, poor, disabled, handicapped, etc.

The answer would be a resounding YES!!, but only if they voted mainly for the GOP.

Parlez Vous Privilege ???


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Sheryl31449 Donating Member (1 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 05:38 PM
Response to Original message
162. Maybe I Can Help
Dear Proud2Blib,

I do a lot of genealogy and research on my family and have
been doing this for almost ten years.  If you Mom is around 81
years old she was born around 1924-25 which means it's very
likely she is on the Census records.  If you will send me her
name and the names of her parents I will be glad to make a
search of the census records for them - and I need what state
she was born in.  I can tell you immediately if she is on the
1930 census as it is all online - actually the entire US
census from 1790 through 1930 is online.

If you would like to e-mail me privately I will be glad to
help you.  There are public school records and yearbooks that
can be searched for records for her.

Sincerely,
Sheryl Reynolds
southern77327@yahoo.com
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galloglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 09:29 PM
Response to Reply #162
242. Damn! That is a sweet offer.
Sadly, the lost of things Missouri except under its law, SR 1014, is strictly limited. And it doesn't include censuses.

See below. But, hey.. Thanks for the offer. Really!:hug:

Kindness and understanding has been rare around here tonight.


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FlippyDoo Donating Member (16 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 06:38 PM
Response to Original message
164. I feel bad for your mom proud2Blib
but not all is lost. You can get this worked out. It'll just take some effort on your part. I haven't read this entire thread so some of this may already have been said.

You should be able to get an official government ID somewhere in your area. Probably the nearest drivers license office. If MO is like most states your mother will need several items to get the ID. She will need some sort of identity proof. For this I'm pretty sure that a social security card will do. A medicare card might also work. She will need some proof that she lives within the state. I'm sure that the nursing can provide documents to help with this. The toughest thing to prove will probably by citizenship. In a lot of cases, even if there is no record of her actual birth she can be issued a birth certificate. School records would help. Sometimes I think they will accept affidavits of people who have known her for a certain number of years.

I wish you luck.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 08:36 PM
Response to Reply #164
209. A Social Security card is not proof of identity
Thanks for the nice wishes.
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lumpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 06:46 PM
Response to Original message
165. Isn't your mother on social security?
I believe you have to show proof of birth to obtain it.
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karlrschneider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 07:13 PM
Response to Reply #165
171. Absolutely. I recently applied for benefits (getting some of my own
Edited on Fri Sep-22-06 07:35 PM by karlrschneider
money back, that is)...I had to send in my ORIGINAL B.C. So I'm 'verified' by the SSA as being who I claim to be and it would be no problem whatsoever to get a confirmation from them if I were to lose my DL and/or passport. It might cost a few bucks for some kind of certified proof but there's no doubt it could be done. The OP has given us a parable to show up a bad law - I agree with the sentiment but
there is a -lot- of embellishment in the story.
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lumpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 09:47 PM
Response to Reply #171
248. My father had no birth certificate when he
applied for SS; the town he was born in no longer exists. A page from a family bible showing his birth sufficed.
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Sapphire Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 10:41 PM
Response to Reply #171
255. I CHALLENGE YOU TO DO IT!
If it is as easy as you seem to think it is, you should have no problem obtaining verification of your identity from the Social Security Administration.

Please post a thread about your experience, too.

How many people will it take to personally experience disenfranchisement before it is recognized & acknowledged? And just what are we going to do about it at that point, when most of us will have been disenfranchised & will have no right to representation in this gov't 'of the people, by the people, and for the people'?

Unfortunately, people often can't seem to accept anything beyond their own (sometimes very limited) experience... they haven't personally encountered X, so X does not exist. Those people had better watch out, because X is going to come down on them like a ton of bricks.

As Pastor Niemöller said. "First they came for the Communists..."

WAKE UP AMERICA! VOTER DISENFRANCHISEMENT IS REAL. IT IS HAPPENING.

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karlrschneider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 11:11 PM
Response to Reply #255
260. Please do not attempt to baffle me with bullshit. I was protesting the
VietNam war back when you probably were soiling diapers. I was fired from a job for supporting George McGovern. I use my real actual name here on DU and practically every other venue on the internet...
Karl Schneider krs@valornet.com

Anybody who thinks they might want to fuck with me had better know I have many guns and I don't put up with threats from fundy/wingnut/assholes - which is a matter of basic survival where I live in eastern Oklahoma where many people think Bush is Jesus reincarnated.

Neimoller's comments are a staple of my political rhetoric (and you got the first part wrong anyway)...
If you ever read some of the letters I have e-and-snailmailed to my Senators, you probably would experience an obscenity moment, so please don't get your hormones over-gyrated considering my activism or however you might perceive as a lack of it.

Yes, the proposed laws about voter identification are largely despicable, I don't dispute that. But that sword cuts both ways - and you might want to consider which side of the political spectrum would be most likely to take unfair and/or illegal advantage of lax or cavalier rules about who legitimate voters really are.

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Sapphire Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 11:34 PM
Response to Reply #260
264. You seem to think it's so easy. Again, I CHALLENGE YOU TO DO IT.
Edited on Fri Sep-22-06 11:37 PM by Sapphire Blue
My goodness, you're a little riled up, aren't you? Do you feel better by treating me as if I'm so much younger & thus less experienced than you? What if I am? What if I'm not?

What's your point about having guns & not putting up "with threats from fundy/wingnut/assholes"?

Please keep my hormones, gyrating or otherwise, out of this, thank you.

You're implying (I think) that repubs would "take unfair and/or illegal advantage of lax or cavalier rules about who legitimate voters really are." Why would they bother when they have control of the machines, and are suppressing the Democratic vote?

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karlrschneider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 11:46 PM
Response to Reply #264
265. Well, ARE you younger and less experienced?
If not, elucidate, I am here to learn, not only to pontificate. I think I made it quite clear that
the GOPers are willing and able to manipulate the vote as we all apparently understand.

My "point" about the guns is simply to demonstrate that I'm not a coward and I'm willing to use my
real identity here and elsewhere - do you find that suspicious?

It's after 11 p.m. here, so it would probably be a little difficult for me to follow up on your 'challenge'...but I WILL make a note to check into it Monday morning. I'll give you 5 to 1 odds I can
arrange for some certified documentation from the SSA (and if it costs a few bucks, I'll pay that)
which can be mailed to me and which would satisfy local and/or state authorities. You want a piece of that action?....anything up to a G on your end will be just fine.
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Sapphire Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-23-06 12:17 AM
Response to Reply #265
266. I look forward to your post re: receipt of identification from the SSA.
And, for clarification, are you saying that you don't mind having to pay to obtain ID in order to exercise your Constitutional right to vote?

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karlrschneider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-23-06 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #266
284. Don't bother replying, you are on my ignore list
...
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Sapphire Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-23-06 11:10 AM
Response to Reply #284
288. I look forward to reading your post re: receipt of ID from the SSA!
Edited on Sat Sep-23-06 11:18 AM by Sapphire Blue
But I suppose you can't read this.

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readmoreoften Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-24-06 01:33 PM
Response to Reply #171
343. I'd LOVE to see you do this. You're only backing up your accusations
(and yes, you are accusing the poster of lying or as you say "embellishing") with what you THINK would happen. In my generation, we called this SHIT TALKING. Don't be surprised that you get flamed, because your above post is really arrogant. In all your "wise years" I suppose you've never dealt with bureaucracy.

Whether the poster is "embellishing" or not--hell, you could be "embellishing" your story about protesting Vietnam-- why should I trust you?-- her explanations are more credible than some guy who says "oh yeah, I could do it!"

Really, who cares what you THINK you can do. Back your accusations up with proof, or accept the flames you've earned.
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Sapphire Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-24-06 08:31 PM
Response to Reply #343
354. Watch out! You'll go on his ignore list!
:hi:

I think that he put me on 'ignore' to ignore my challenge to get ID from the SSA (which, according to him, is really easy to do)... and to avoid clarifying whether he really doesn't mind having to pay to obtain ID in order to exercise his Constitutional right to vote.

In any case, I'll be watching for his post backing up his claims.

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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 08:37 PM
Response to Reply #165
211. SHE IS 81 YEARS OLD
So she has been on SS for nearly 20 years now. She was still driving and had a license when she applied for it.
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roseBudd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 06:49 PM
Response to Original message
166. IMPERSONATING OTHER VOTERS DOESN'T HAPPEN BECAUSE..
IT IS INEFFICIENT AND RISKY. IT'S NOT WORTH IT. FOR ONE VOTE PER IMPERSONATION. ONE.

When I call my bank on the phone they ask for last 4 digits of social, birthdate and mother's maiden. The stakes are muchg higher with banking, yet this is good enough. Are we to believe hordes of vote impersonators are memorizing socials, addresses and practicing signatures? Right.

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silverojo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-24-06 03:13 PM
Response to Reply #166
348. Impersonating other voters doesn't happen?
Identity theft happens at ALL levels. Seriously, get a clue.
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Red Right and BLUE Donating Member (774 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 07:04 PM
Response to Original message
170. Proud2BeLib
I'm so sorry this is happening to your mother. I'm also sorry about the accusations you've had to endure here. What is happening to DU?

:hug:


And I'll post it again:

IT'S ELECTION FRAUD, NOT VOTER FRAUD!
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 08:38 PM
Response to Reply #170
213. Thank you!!
I don't know what is happening to DU. It is sure a bummer though. :cry:
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stepnw1f Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 08:03 PM
Response to Original message
185. GOP Naziland (nt)
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 08:39 PM
Response to Reply #185
214. AMEN!!
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stepnw1f Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 08:51 PM
Response to Reply #214
225. I'm Designing a Bumpersticker Out Of It
Edited on Fri Sep-22-06 09:21 PM by stepnw1f
it'll take me a few minutes...

Here it is.....

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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 10:19 PM
Response to Reply #225
251. Oh I love it!
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napi21 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 08:04 PM
Response to Original message
186. I strongly suggest the following:
Edited on Fri Sep-22-06 08:08 PM by napi21
Contact BY PHONE or in person if possible- Chris Bond & Jim Talent.

They are both Pubs and I'm fairly sure support the pic ID bill. Explain your mother's circumstances, and tell them she desperately needs their help! Both of those guys should have the clout to be able to help you, and when they find out just how difficult it was to get your mother registered, JUST MAYBE they will give a second thought to how they're going to vote on the ID bill.


edit: Please do this by phone or in person! Emailsrarely, if ever, get to the Senator. Sorry I don't pay closer attention to Mo. politics, but if either one is up for election this year, call that one FIRST! They NEED someone in a local neighborhood who will tell their neighbors and friends how much XXXX helped them in an impossible situation! (NO your mother doesn't have to say nice things about a PUB either!)
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 08:42 PM
Response to Reply #186
216. I already contacted Bond
My dad knew him. But Kit did not respond. I will call both of them again though. I also called my congressman's office today. He is a Dem. His staff asked me to send him a personal email and tell him this story.
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napi21 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 10:53 PM
Response to Reply #216
258. Your right. Contact them again. Use your power as a voter.
You were right to contact your congressman. He has to be up for election thin year, because they all are! They all are very powerful people, and if the fire destroyed all the birth records, they have HAD to face this issue before! A creative and cincere Congressman will find how wto fix this problem! Don't let up!
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galloglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 09:35 PM
Response to Reply #186
243. n/t
Edited on Fri Sep-22-06 09:36 PM by galloglas
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galloglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 08:12 PM
Response to Original message
191. For every Unbelieving mother's son (or daughter) of you!! HERE!
Apparently no one will GO to the thread, so it's coming here!


That, ranchhands, is the title of this thread. Perhaps nothing else fits.

ProgressiveEconomist has suggested that an answer I posted to another thread be started as its own thread.

And, as I like to think of myself as Progressive, but since Economics (as either a profession or academic subject) is Greek to me, I'll split the two halves of PE's handle, submit, but share the floor with them.

So, I give you both the URL of the thread where we ran acoss each other, to be found here, (where PE made many insightful comments, themself)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

AND

both the text of PE's request, and my own Screed (written to a third poster). One which carried enough new and detailed information that PE thought it worthy of its own thread.


First the request, found below, followed by the Screed.


from ProgressiveEconomist:

56. galloglas, this EXCELLENT post deserves its own thread

The "Voter ID" gambit for Republican vote suppression is GENIUS! No armed stormtroopers with armbands, as in Tom Kean's 1981 2000-vote "victory" in NJ. No ChoicePoint biased purges.

Even on this board, progressives who consider themselves well-informed are drinking the Kool-Aid, posting in all innocence, "What? You don't want voters to have to show ID on Election Day?"

Your superb post makes much clearer that's not what the Republicans are doing. We're talking about voters who already are registered and about special IDs that are completely unnecessary, an abuse of the concept of ID designed to discriminate against city-folk, poor people, and the elderly--groups that tend to vote for Democrats.

I like the way your post includes Voter ID cards as an item in a list of unacceptable documents for qualifying for a Special Republican Vote Suppression Photo ID Card!



And now The Screed where PADem2 suggest, perhaps, I doth protest too much. It includes a short answer to a fourth poster who suggested that Photo IDs were a good "paper trail".



48. PADEM2, you need to read this !!

This is posted down page, but most of what it addresses concerns you and your aunt. I ask questions at the end of the post. But I'll start with one.

Did you say what you said as a kneejerk reaction? Or did you know nothing about our Missouri Law? If neither, are you just anti-immigrant?


Here's the post:


(this part to the fourth poster) ]It establishes a "paper trail" to protect against the largely non-existent threat of losing elections to "Voter Fraud" (the GOP frame). But it does nothing to help create a paper trail for the lastest Diebold Cheat-o-Matics.

Btw, here in Missouri, a law passed in late May requiring State Issued VoterIDs. Our SoS got around to announcing the problem to the voter right before primaries. There are 180,000 voter (most all Democratic) who will be affected.

That in a state that could pick up one of the much needed five Senate seats. Yet, guess what? The only place that these can be gotten are at the State License Bureaus which are, after a sale this past year, are now owned by the family of and inlaws of Gov. Matt Blunt (Congressional House Whip Roy Blunt's son). Think they will stay open overtime to help out the elderly, poor, underserved, etc?

Not on your life. The sale makes it impossible for the SoS to compel the license bureaus to accomodate them.(end part to the fourth poster).



As for PA-DEM's suggestion that you, or I,

"Take your 80 year old aunt out for a valid state ID and a nice lunch, for crying out loud! Have her bring a couple utility bills and a social security card and you're good to go."

I have news for them.

Missouri is requiring photo IDs, alright; but a Driver's License, a Passport, or a Military Photo.

How many of our 80 year old aunts are still licensed drivers? Or with valid Passports? Or still active military?

Specifically excluded as IDs (from the MO SoS page) are:

1) Voter Identification Card
2) Utility Bill
3) Bank Statement
4) Paycheck Stub
5) University ID
6) Employer ID

So, if you don't have an ID, here's what the SoS asks you to do (on your lunch with the 80 year old aunt).

(Again, from the MO SoS page.)

"Here’s What You’ll Need To Do:"

1. Show Who You Are.
ONE of these will do:
* Social Security Card
* Medicare Card
* U.S. Passport
If your name on the card you show does not match your current name, you must show proof of name change on:
* Marriage License
* Divorce Decree
* Court Order
* Adoption Papers

2. Show You’re A U.S. Citizen.
ONE of these will do:
* Birth Certificate
* U.S. Passport, valid or expired
* Certificate of Citizenship
* Certificate of Naturalization
* Certificate of Birth Abroad

3. Show Where You Live.
ONE of these will do.
* Recent Utility Bill
* Voter Registration Card
* Government Check
* Pay Check
* Property Tax Receipt
* Rental Contract for Current Address
* Letter from Postmaster in Last 30 Days
* Government Document Showing Name and Address in Last 30 Days


Now, KEYSTONE, if you and auntie get that handled, here's where you go to get those Photo IDs.

(Again, from the Sos Official Page)

You can get a Missouri driver’s license or non-driver’s license at your local Department of Revenue office (average wait time 2 to three hours, without any extra people showing up for IDs). Non-driver’s licenses may be free of charge. To find the license office nearest you, call 866-443-4165 or go to www.dor.mo.gov/mvd/offloc. (There are an average of 1.3 offices per county, statewide! So, average trip would be about 70 miles, roundtrip)

Also, a Mobile Licensing Unit (there are only 4 of them) will travel the state to visit locations accessible to and frequented by elderly and disabled Missourians who cannot visit a motor vehicle license office. These units will provide an opportunity to sign up for photo IDs that will be mailed out later. (any chance of a slipup there?????) To check the schedule, call 866-443-4165 or go to: http://www.dor.mo.gov/mvdl/drivers/voterid.pdf



Now, Keystone, do the math.

These Revenue offices are open year round. They serve an average of 100,000 people per month.

So, in addition to their regular business, you and your auntie, me and mine, and everyone else's, would funnel an extra 180,000 clients a month through their doors (open 8:30 AM to 4:00 PM), tripling their traffic during the four months until the election.

And a GOP Governor's cronies own them, and get no fees for helping you and Auntie. Really think many people are going to get taken care of?

And, BTW, you and your Auntie will be standing in a line for the whole, long time of it. So, is she healthy? Not in a hospital or a nursing home, I hope?

Perhaps you failed to think this through?

Or, possibly, you are also incited to near-riot by the GOP's race-baiting tactics. You know, the Administration and GOP Congress talking (so suddenly) last spring about all those illegal immigrants who used to pick the fruit that now hangs rotting on trees in our orchards throughout the nation? (Just asking, of course)

Do you really think Missouri's plan is workable???
How much time were you planning on spending with Auntie?
Maybe ought to plan to spend about a week on this???


ONE LAST THING for all of the closest xenophobes out there. A question.

Do you REALLY thing this is designed to keep Juan and Jose from south of the Border from voting??

If so, I've got a bridge to sell you. (It stretches from the Alaskan Mainland to bloody NoWhere!)




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Catchawave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 08:37 PM
Response to Original message
210. Photo id's ????
What's wrong with that??? Geez.

I know I feel my vote counts legally when I have to whip out mine :hi:
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 08:45 PM
Response to Reply #210
220. Reading? Comprehending?
What's wrong with that? Sheesh.
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galloglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 09:37 PM
Response to Reply #210
244. Didn't read any of the 208 other posts, huh?? n/t
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Imagevision Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 08:51 PM
Response to Original message
224. GOP know low income and the poor usually vote democratic, this is
typical Rove playbook bullshit, I'm really fed up with no help from Dems with these stupid Rove antics.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 08:53 PM
Response to Reply #224
228. Me too
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Bitwit1234 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 09:19 PM
Response to Original message
237. And think of all the mothers and fathers out there.
I don't drive. Never had a driver's license. But I have a birth certificate, marriage license etc. The thing is I had an appointment at the social security office. I had to go there to meet the guy who screwed up my social security check. The woman at the desk said if I did not have a driver's license which would have my picture on it, I could not come into the office. YEP A DRIVER'S LICENSE. Fortunately the clerk came out and got me. But think of all the people turned away from that. NOT EVERYBODY IN AMERICA DRIVES.
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galloglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 09:41 PM
Response to Reply #237
245. I agree. I think it's an Oil Cartel Conspiracy slopover, too! n/t
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texpatriot2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 09:25 PM
Response to Original message
240. No American should have to show a photo ID to VOTE! nm
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galloglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 09:42 PM
Response to Reply #240
246. Hooray for texpatriot2004 !! Someone FINALLY figured it all out !!
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 10:28 PM
Response to Reply #240
253. Hooray! You get it!
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ladywnch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 09:47 PM
Response to Original message
247. I'm trying ot figure out how they are you going to appy this to
absentee ballots????

I mean, are they going to discount absentees? Are we going to have to got to the Clerk's Office to register for one? I work on the road for weeks at a time. It seems counterproductive have absentee ballots if I have to be present to get one sent to me.

Any one know how this is supposed to play out?
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galloglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 11:23 PM
Response to Reply #247
262. Probably as with "provisional ballots"
the text from SR 1014 (the crooked law) reads like this

Procedures to be followed to establish a voter's eligibility to vote at a polling place are established. Provisional ballots are allowed in some circumstances. Prior to counting provisional ballots, the election authority must determine if the voter is registered and eligible to vote, and the vote was properly cast. Procedures for this determination are included in the act.


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silverojo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-24-06 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #247
349. Absentee ballots don't count, anyway
In many states (including mine), absentee ballots are only counted if the Presidential race is so close, that they need the absentee ballots to break the tie. I'm in a red state, so that didn't happen.

So, yes, I know what it's like to be disenfranchised--I was late registering to vote, and suffered the consequences. My vote didn't count, not for the national or local elections.

But I didn't post about it all over this board, or blame Congress or lash out at DU posters, because I realized it was my own fault for not registering sooner.

Nor would I whine about people being unsympathetic if someone else pointed that out. I screwed up, I paid the price. Lesson learned.
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sandrakae Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 11:00 PM
Response to Original message
259. Can't your DMV give her an ID card?
Edited on Fri Sep-22-06 11:01 PM by sandrakae
In PA you can get an ID that looks just like a picture License. Its for people who do not drive. She might be able to get that with showing her marriage license.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 11:16 PM
Response to Reply #259
261. Sigh
She doesn't have the documentation necessary for a state ID.
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wildflowergardener Donating Member (863 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-23-06 12:18 AM
Response to Original message
267. What you need - what a pain for most voters.
Edited on Sat Sep-23-06 12:24 AM by mbergen
Hi. Hopefully this law will be overturned before 2008, so it will not be a problem for your mother.

As I posted in the previous thread - if you do not have a birth certificate, what you need if your mother was born before 1930 is posted below. Now I'm assuming you were not able to find all of these. I think the bigger point, is if you do not have the id, how many people are going to go to this much trouble to try to get an ID so they could vote. Sure we would - we care enough to post on a political message board. How many people who work 2 jobs, for example are going to have the time to do this? This is intended to cause so much trouble for people who tend to not vote republican that they give up and don't bother to vote. It shouldn't be this much trouble to be able to vote.

I just renewed my drivers license. Luckily my parents have my birth certificate in the safe deposit box. I live in Missouri as well.

Meg

U.S. Citizens born 1930 or before who wish to obtain a new Missouri non-commercial driver license or nondriver license, and are unable to obtain a government-issued birth certificate, may provide the following:

A certified "No Record Statement" from your state of birth plus two supporting documents (listed below). In Missouri, a certified "No Record Statement" may be obtained from Vital Statistics, the same agency that provides certified birth certificates. This verifies that there is no birth record on file.
Supporting documents include, but are not limited to, military records, child's birth certificate (hospital records are not acceptable), baptismal record, insurance policy, Social Security Administration numident, school records, employment records, and Census Bureau records, etc. The supporting documents should list the applicant’s name, place of birth, date of birth or age at the time the document was issued. Each document does not need to have all of the preceding information but the department needs sufficient information to establish place and date of birth. For example, Military Discharge Papers stating that Mr. John Brown was discharged on March 25, 1945, would not be sufficient since the document does not include Mr. Brown’s place of birth.
Fax the documents to (573) 522-9439 or mail copies to the Show Me Proof Review Panel, Department of Revenue, P.O. Box 200, Jefferson City, MO 65101-0200.
A response will be provided within 2 weeks of our receipt of the documents. You may call (573) 751-2730 with any questions.
All other "Show Me Proof" requirements for proof of identity and proof of residency still apply.

which is this
To show proof of identity, a Social Security card or Medicare card with your current name can be presented. If your name on the Social Security card or Medicare card does not match your current name, additional documents must be presented to supply proof of your name change. A complete list of documents that will be accepted as proof of identity is available. After showing proof of identity, you will only need to present proof of identity on future renewals should your name change.

To show proof of residency, you have a variety of options to prove your current address. Examples include a recent utility bill (including phone, electric, gas, water, sewer, and cable), property tax receipt, or most recent bank statement, voter ID card, or any official letter issued within the last 30 days by another state or local governmental agency on its letterhead. Proof of residency will be required each time you apply to renew a driver license, nondriver license, or instruction permit. A complete list of documents that will be accepted as proof of residency is available. If you are under the age of 21 and cannot provide proof of residency, a parent or legal guardian may provide such a document on your behalf.


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ms liberty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-23-06 12:50 AM
Response to Original message
269. I am so sorry you are going thru this particular ring of hell...
And I'm really angry about some of the posts here which accuse you of making this up. What is it with some of these people?

I read your OP and had NO problem understanding the series of events that has led you to this impasse. This situation could easily be happening here in NC, and WILL be if this gawd-awful voter ID law passes.

Someone above offered to look up your information in the Census online; while that won't count as a form of ID it may help in proving her identity and citizenship. Using census information your grandparents could be identified in the 1920 census, then 1930, then 1940. That would establish her families residence in the US for a time frame from before her birth to after her birth. There are several other possible avenues that could be explored that are familiar to geneaologists who often do lot of research just to find new dead relatives they've never known about who existed with little or no documentation (I say it that way as a joke, but it is accurate - they call it collecting dead relatives!!) I would suggest first that you contact a geneaologist in the area where your mother was born. Call the library in that area, they should be able to point you in the right direction. Also, there's tons of genealogical links on the web. Do you have any relatives still living in that area? Geneaology is an addictive pursuit, and often someone who starts out researching their family history ends up tracing every family that ever met up in their family tree! Also, I didn't see mention of a family bible from your mother's parents. If they didn't have one, did they have any brothers or sisters? An aunt or uncle might have your mother listed in their family bible. I began digging into family history a bit myself this summer, and info can be found in some of the oddest places.

Those types of records may not be able to be used to register your mother for voting; but along with SS records and such they might be able to PROVE her identity and citizenship enough for a court of law. You could perhaps use them to either sue the state, or petition the court and get her registered. I'm not a lawyer, but this needs to be officially documented IMHO, and passed on to the people who are fighting this issue. This is criminal, and exposes a major flaw in the legislation!

If you want, I'd be happy to poke around a bit for you and see if or what I can find to point you in a direction. All I would need is the city or town, the county, and the state where she was born, her maiden name, her birthdate, and her parents name. PM me if you'd like me to help. I know that you got a similar offer above, and judging from their post that person probably knows more than I do about geneaology. But I also understand that after some of the responses on this thread, you might not want to trust a newbie with a disabled profile! I've been here a while, and my history is available for you to check, I'd also be happy to identify myself to you more if necessary, not here in public on the board, but thru PM's.

I won't be offended if you decide not to take me up on my offer, nor will I disbelieve the situation you've recounted. It may be that you've already explored all these ideas. I feel angry and frustrated for you, and if I can be of help I want to do what I can!

I'm sorry this is such a long post! I'm going offline - it's 1:50AM here, and I've got to get some sleep. I visit DU every day, usually several times a day! so let me know if I can help.

Peace!
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-23-06 11:08 AM
Response to Reply #269
287. Oh how nice of you
Looks like census data won't be accepted. And yes, another DUer has looked up census data and found my mom and her parents. So at least one DUer knows I am not making this up.

And how comforting it is to know there are still good people here at DU. :hug:

When (if) this national voter ID becomes law, I have a feeling many many other people will see the light and understand why this is such a bad law. Wouldn't it be nice if we could prevent that?
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Recursion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-23-06 04:57 AM
Response to Original message
271. Not to "me too", but I'm 30 and I wouldn't be able to vote
Edited on Sat Sep-23-06 04:57 AM by dmesg
Over the past 6 months, three things have happened:

1) I moved, and had set aside a day to go to the DMV to switch my driver's license, but before that:
2) I got mugged and they got my wallet which had all my IDs, after which
3) My apartment flooded, destroying my passport, birth certificate, and DD-214

Now, conceivably I could go back to my former state of residence and get my old license from the DMV but:
1) I can't fly without an ID
2) I can't buy an Amtrak ticket without an ID
3) Greyhound doesn't go to my old town

I do have an "out" that your mother doesn't; I can bribe/cajole/threaten my brother to drive me back to my old town (this is an 8-hour drive) where the people at the DMV (hopefully) remember me and can get me my old license back. But even then, who knows?

As I'm learning, if you lose *all* of your photo identifications, you're kind of SOL.

Edit: typo
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michreject Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-23-06 08:21 AM
Response to Original message
276. Something isn't right
My mother was born at home as well and had no birth certificate, and in order to start receiving Social Security AND her pension, she had to get an affidavit from people attesting that she is who she say's she is.



:shrug:
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-23-06 11:12 AM
Response to Reply #276
289. Been there done that
The state wants affidavits from people who remember her birth. Since she was the oldest and is the oldest living member of her family, there is no one to give this affidavit.
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lynne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-23-06 08:35 AM
Response to Original message
277. She had a drivers license and passport at one time, right?
- then she should be somewhere in their archives. Her original passport application should be on file. The state that licensed her should have her old records. Her drivers license number - if it wasn't her social security number - can probably be found in old auto insurance records.

Guess this is a good lesson in why we should never throw personal identification documents away.

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galloglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-24-06 01:07 AM
Response to Reply #277
332. Excuuuuuse Me?
Guess this is a good lesson in why we should never throw personal identification documents away.

Right. Blame the victim.

How 'bout losing those IDs in Katrina?

Oh,..that's right,.. Bob Dylan answered that, didn't he?

Now, don't you try an' move me,
You're just gonna lose.
There's a crash on the levee
And, mama, you've been refused.
Well, it's sugar for sugar
And salt for salt,
If you go down in the flood,
It's gonna be your own fault.



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lynne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-24-06 07:09 AM
Response to Reply #332
337. What part of "throw away" did you not understand?
Your little rant has absolutely nothing to do with what I posted. Good try, though.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-24-06 10:37 AM
Response to Reply #337
341. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-24-06 06:46 PM
Response to Reply #341
351. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
wildeyed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-23-06 08:45 AM
Response to Original message
278. I think that a lot of people have that knee jerk reaction.
"But everyone has picture ID, don't they?" But they don't. And in the absence of any evidence of voter fraud, they should not be disenfranchised.

Thanks for posting this. It is important for people to understand how this legislation will effect voters. You and your mom have gone to a great deal of trouble trying to deal with this problem, and still haven't managed to solve it. And not everyone has the time and/or education to deal with these kind of roadblocks. I do a lot of GOTV with undeserved populations and this type of legislation just turns my blood cold.
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truth2power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-23-06 09:20 AM
Response to Original message
279. I agree. Voter will keep many from being able to vote..
mostly Democrats, i would guess.

My mother never had a birth certificate nor a driver's license. Guess she could no longer vote.
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robbedvoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-23-06 09:53 AM
Response to Original message
280. Point is, it's a voter suppression law. Anyone who even misplaces
their ID is going to be denied the right to vote. People are not going to stand in long lines at DMV to vote.
And please remember - in large cities, most people (usually low income, potential Dems) do not drive or own a car.
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-23-06 12:04 PM
Response to Original message
290. Kick
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Horse with no Name Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-23-06 12:14 PM
Response to Original message
291. You mom (and others like her)
I was in an argument here the other day about the fallibility of Voter ID.
I gave examples of people that do not use ID's in their everyday life, so they don't have them. One was an 83 year old woman.
I was accused of setting up strawmen. Not one DU'er came to my defense.
I am so sorry for your mother's predicament.
We ran into difficulty obtaining a birth certificate for a family member.
At that time, we were told that if there was a family bible that listed the birth, it was acceptable.
Not sure if you have access to your Great-grandparents Bible or not.
The other thing you can use for drivers licenses/state ID's is school records including college transcripts or degrees. Also a marriage license which is obtainable from the county she was married in.
I was even told that if her DOB is listed on YOUR birth certificate, then that is acceptable with a statement from you.
Good luck. I know the difficulty you are going through.
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Realityhack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-23-06 01:06 PM
Response to Original message
295. My Take.
If we are to take an honest look at this even IF the person in the OP was able to eventualy get a voter registration...

It is STILL VOTE SUPPRESION!

Look at everything that has been done so far. How many people would have given up? How many would be screwed by yet another roadblock? How is having to go through all this not equivilent to a poll tax?

The thing is I support the basic concept of a voter ID. The concept being you demonstrate you are eleigeable to vote and then you vote.
But the devil is in the details and the 'cure' seems worse than the poison.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-23-06 04:46 PM
Response to Reply #295
300. Glad you get it
This is far too much trouble to go through just to register to vote. When you consider how few registered voters actually vote, you wonder how many would just give up before spending months to get documentaton together.
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Leopolds Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-23-06 04:47 PM
Response to Original message
301. Proponents of ID as a Citizenship Requirement are UNAMERICAN.
There, I said it.

There shall be NO TEST for exercise of ones INALIENABLE RIGHTS as a free citizen of the US or anywhere else.

If ID is an acceptable test for exercise of ones rights, then:

** The people on this thread would (and WILL) demand you have it in order to exercise freedom of movement and assembly. I know -- I have had relatives say as much, when I told them I wasn't bringing ID to a demonstration. Not "you're nuts" mind you... but... "That's illegal, don't expect me to bail you out." LIBERAL relatives.

** Spelling tests are every bit as legitimate (and arbitrary) as possession of a picture ID when it comes to revoking ones otherwise-guaranteed right to vote, travel, assemble on the street, etc.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-23-06 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #301
306. It is not illegal to be without an ID
We had training just the other night with an ACLU attorney. He assured us no law says you HAVE TO carry an ID.
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Leopolds Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-23-06 05:43 PM
Response to Reply #306
313. IN MISSOURI. YET. It is an equivalent violation of constitutional rights.
The precedent has been set. The people advocating the Voter ID law -- and the Dems backing it, I've encountered them personally (and I currently live in one of the most liberal policy-wonk towns in the nation) -- have ZERO problem with such a law requiring people on the street to have ID. NONE.

Posession of ID as a requirement for the exercise of any constitutional right means it is permissible to enact a statute requiring ID for the exercise of any other right, and several states have already done so.

It is a violation of the spirit of the Declaration of Independence that Americans bled for. Anyone who endorses such a law are traitors to the spirit of the Constitution & Bill of Rights, much less the inalienable rights that uphold it.

Also, Posession of ID as a requirement to vote is functionally equivalent to requiring literacy in order to vote, or requiring shoes in order to vote.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-23-06 06:11 PM
Response to Reply #313
316. The head of our local ACLU
says it is not illegal to not carry ID anywhere in the US.
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readmoreoften Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-24-06 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #316
344. Funny, when I lived in Dallas everyone told me that you had to carry ID.
Even a cop backed that up. Weird. (I'm not saying that it's a law; I'm just saying that its strange that everyone thinks it is...)
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Leopolds Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-24-06 07:53 PM
Response to Reply #344
352. Apparently they are brainwashed conformists. n/t
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Leopolds Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-23-06 05:03 PM
Response to Original message
303. This thread reminds me of the people who say "No one's THAT poor"
I've been on lots of mass transit/urban planning discussion forums over
the years where the most common sentiment is "there's nobody in America
that is so poor that they can't afford a car of some sort."

As I mentioned in a previous thread, it's subconscious: It's all about precieved eligibility to reproduce. People who drive, and have a license, are eligible to reproduce under the subconscious societal standards of the US. It's only natural that we privelige them when it comes to the rights of citizenship.

After all, to those who drive, no extra effort is required to vote.

That translates instantly to disparate treatment --

in case any of the people on the Internet knows what that means.

Ignoring the disparate treatment issue, drivers licenses have become ear tags for a docile citizenry who doesn't seem to be aware of their inalienable rights to assemble, vote, or even move without having or being asked to display a hall pass.

All part of the adolescent dumbing-down of America, I guess.

This is a human rights issue that transcends disparate treatment, much less the comparatively minor "poll tax" objection. This is what we fought a Revolution to escape.
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lapauvre Donating Member (387 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-23-06 05:19 PM
Response to Original message
308. Subject: just some suggestions
If she worked for the gov't and the fbi had to check her out periodically, they should have a file on her, including her birthdate and birthplace. Your representative might try there.

Something is needed for a Social Security card, and her SS # should be available on her bank account or on medicare card. Social Security should be able to provide sufficient longevity of her work record to obtain some kind of documentation. Your representative might try there.

Also, old family bibles? If she once drove in any state, is it possible to find an old check with her driver's license # on it, and get that driver's license renewed, or a photo id using the old driver's license as proof of identity? Often, when you cash a check, the clerk writes your driver's license number on the check someplace.

If you explain your situation to the DMV in the State where she last had a driver's license, could that maybe get you a copy of an old license?

I don't have a copy of one of my children's birth certificates, but I think, in CA, they put the father's and the mother's dates of birth on them. Could her date of birth be on YOUR birth certificate?

You seem to have covered all bases but maybe these are some new ideas that will get your thoughts to another way to skin this particular cat. Good luck.

I am 71 years old, also born at home, but I do have a birth certificate from the State of Louisiana
Most doctor's, midwives, etc. used to see to it the birth was reported to public records. I can't see how your mother managed to get through 81 years without one. She's an exceptional person to have accomplished that. Truly.

Did she ever inherit any property from her parents or another relative? Her marriage license?

That's all I can think of. Sorry. Hope something helps.

L
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-23-06 08:43 PM
Response to Reply #308
323. Thanks for the suggestions!
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-23-06 05:44 PM
Response to Original message
314. Voting may be the least of your worries. Wait until Social Security
wants all those documents!

THOUSANDS of people are losing their benefits, because of this crap!

I'd like to know the figures on how many have died, because they were left with NOTHING to live on!

Yes, this is happening.

It's more important than what is happening to some of the celebrities that everyone gets so upset about...



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NiteOwll Donating Member (148 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-23-06 06:00 PM
Response to Original message
315. This law discriminates against disabled people
I have a relative who is confined to his home due to a disability. He has other forms of ID, but no photo ID other than a long expired driver's license. Due to the nature of the disability, I'm not sure he could even tolerate the physical pain he would have to endure to go to the DMV to get a State ID card. Obviously, he currently votes by absentee ballot. If this law passes, and they don't accept the expired DL, I'm not sure what we could do to get him another one without him having to go in person to get one.

I guess we'll cross that bridge when we come to it. :(
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-23-06 08:47 PM
Response to Reply #315
325. I met a disabled woman in MO who was part of the lawsuit
filed to get this Voter ID bill thrown out. She lives in a care facility and has never had a drivers license.

Yes this law definitely discriminates against people with disabilities. It is shameful legislation.
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maddezmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-24-06 06:26 AM
Response to Original message
336. was just googling and found this, not sure it'll help
http://www.dor.mo.gov/mvdl/drivers/idrequirements.htm#bornprior1930
Special Considerations for Applicants Born 1930 or Before
NOTE: Missourians age 65 or older who are renewing a non-commercial driver license or nondriver license are NOT required to show proof of lawful presence. This exemption does not pertain to those obtaining a new license.

U.S. Citizens born 1930 or before who wish to obtain a new Missouri non-commercial driver license or nondriver license, and are unable to obtain a government-issued birth certificate, may provide the following:

A certified "No Record Statement" from your state of birth plus two supporting documents (listed below). In Missouri, a certified "No Record Statement" may be obtained from Vital Statistics, the same agency that provides certified birth certificates. This verifies that there is no birth record on file.
Supporting documents include, but are not limited to, military records, child's birth certificate (hospital records are not acceptable), baptismal record, insurance policy, Social Security Administration numident, school records, employment records, and Census Bureau records, etc. The supporting documents should list the applicant’s name, place of birth, date of birth or age at the time the document was issued. Each document does not need to have all of the preceding information but the department needs sufficient information to establish place and date of birth. For example, Military Discharge Papers stating that Mr. John Brown was discharged on March 25, 1945, would not be sufficient since the document does not include Mr. Brown’s place of birth.
Fax the documents to (573) 522-9439 or mail copies to the Show Me Proof Review Panel, Department of Revenue, P.O. Box 200, Jefferson City, MO 65101-0200.
A response will be provided within 2 weeks of our receipt of the documents. You may call (573) 751-2730 with any questions.
All other "Show Me Proof" requirements for proof of identity and proof of residency still apply.


Sorry for coming in late to this discussion but didn't this law get struck down?
Photo Identification for Voting
The Circuit Court has ruled the photo ID requirement for voting law unconstitutional.
Due to that ruling, as of 8:00 a.m. September 18, the Department of Revenue has suspended the issuance of free non-driver licenses for voting. The announcement was made in a press release the afternoon of September 15.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.dor.mo.gov/mvdl/drivers/voterid.htm
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cynatnite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-24-06 08:31 AM
Response to Original message
338. This is going to sound tacky...
but when I read about these ID requirements I think if the person is white, they probably won't have to show a photo ID.

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mrreowwr_kittty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-24-06 07:58 PM
Response to Original message
353. Please, please send this to Lou Dobbs too
He's been pushing this voter ID law and excoriating anyone who is against it. Based upon bogus urban legends about illegal immigrants voting. I'd like to see him explain why this law doesn't disenfranchise people. I'm so sorry about your mom and I hope this law doesn't pass.
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