If you want to ally yourself with Chavez, you're as dumb as Sheehan.

[patcox2]

Its as dumb a move as Fonda going to Hanoi (and that worked out great for her and the anti-war movement, didn't it?). That kind of stupidity can demolish all credibility and create a backlash.

Never, ever, ever publicly take the side ot a foreigner against America or an american leader, no matter how much you might agree. We get to criticize our leaders, they don't.

[Deep13]

1. Sheehan?

Why is she dumb?

Otherwise, you're right.

[Der Blaue Engel]

2. Foreigners don't get to criticize our leaders???

Why the fuck not?

[niyad]

3. BS-- ANYBODY has a right to express her/his opinion, be it an

individual or a head of state. and when that individual is speaking truth to obscene power, WHY should we not agree?

freedom of speech, anyone?

per your argument, NOBODY in this country, ESPECIALLY that fop in the oval office, has anything to say about chavez, either--much less backing a coup to throw his legally-elected person out of office, RIGHT?????

[Cobalt Violet]

4. Why Sheehan?

Why's that dumb?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

5. I'll repeat it once more slowly

They... could... have... let.. Chavez's... remarks... slip.. by...without... comment...instead... of...saying... nice... things... about... Bush.

[G_j]

11. check

yes...you...are...correct... in... that

[Poll_Blind]

45. When the owner of this forum makes a public statement...

...such as this one, I have to ask whether any level of clarity beyond what has already been said will help clarify the matter to others who have made up their mind on the matter.

PB

[jonnyblitz]

53. exactly.

:thumbsup:

[treestar]

6. Do they get to criticize their leaders while we don't?

Ridiculous.

They WILL criticize our leaders.

We are not a tribe. We can agree with a foreigner on a thing, any foreigner. We can disagree with any foreigner. We can agree with any fellow American and disagree with any fellow American.

The reaction to Chavez is just childish.

And agreeing with him on any given thing does not require an "alliance" with him.

[Dora]

7. What a crock. n/t

[lonestarnot]

8. Bullfuckingshit!

I follow nothing or no one blindly! I have read what Chavez has done, and about the death threats for his oil that he has used to benefit the poor. I think he should have the same freedom I do as he was an invitee. Bushitler is the fucking devil incarnate, so why have the guy come here and lie! hmmmf!

[mmonk]

9. I'm glad I'm dumb.

[ceile]

36. Me too.

I guess it's because I'm stupid, I can go to be with a clear conscience knowing I support true patriots.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

10. LOL

Was that a bird passing over people's heads? A plane?

[sui generis]

12. gotta love the sarcasm smilie when it's missing

:sarcasm:

[lonestarnot]

13. And Cindy probably has more sense in her shoe than you would

ever dream to have.

[movonne]

14. Why would you say such a thing about Sheehan? if you are a

Dem, I cannot understand any Dem saying such a thing..ann coulter can go on tv and say anything she wants...it sure don't hurt her...

[Sequoia]

15. Yep, and I guess we were wrong to critize Hilter too.

Back to the Freeper Sheep pen with you!

[MadHound]

16. So it's bad for a foreign leader to criticize our president

But it's okey dokey for our president to criticize other foreign leaders? Remember Ronnie "evil empire" Reagan? How about George "axis of evil" Bush? Sorry, but that knife cuts both ways, and if our president is going to demonize other leaders in this world, you've got to expect, and accept, that other leaders will criticize him.

[Imagevision]

17. Dumb as Sheehan? Cindy dictates where Bush will spend his vacation

dumb? - nah! actually quite powerful...

[patcox2]

27. Sheehan became a pathetic sideshow once she went Chavez.

You all can just revel in permanent minority status forever, then, if you don't get it.

[walldude]

33. Rather be in the "minority status" and have a clean

conscience than jump in with the mindless sheeple.

on edit: why are you even on DU with this freeper crap?

[Name removed]

38. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[patcox2]

43. You'd love to empty her garbage wouldn't you?

Because you worship your hero. How cute.

[lonestarnot]

59. I rather think that's where you'll be finding yourself on Nov 8th.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

"You All?" Okay...

Gee I wish the rules were a bit more lax at times.

[CBGLuthier]

18. All damn day long

One post after another telling us what to do.

Getting quite fucking tiring rather its from Skinner or you.

[William769]

19. Ok I don't like Chavez

Sheehan is a different story. You comment was totally uncalled for.

[Individualist]

20. Sheehan is a patriot!

:spank:

You are....nevermind.

[wtmusic]

21. this post is ignorant on so many levels

the most critical of which suggests that appearance is more important than substance.

[JeffR]

22. We get to criticize our leaders, they don't...?

Why is that? Who made this a rule? Why doesn't it work in reverse (ie. Americans criticizing foreign leaders, or Bush criticizing foreign leaders)? Where did you get this from?

BTW, my agreeing with most of what Chavez said does not mean I "ally" myself with him.

Get a grip.

[liberalmuse]

23. True right wing rhetoric.

Some of us agree with Chavez, or if not agree, understand where his contempt of Bush comes from. Not exactly an 'alliance', but leave it to the right wing to put their lying spin on everything. Anyway, I'd rather be allied with Chavez than Bush when history plays out. Bush is the worst kind of despot, and those who follow us will wonder how anyone could have supported him. Unless Chavez starts a pre-emptive war, or begins mass-murdering civilians or does nothing while thousands of his own people die, history is going to be MUCH kinder to him than to Bush.

Sheehan is smart. She's done more for the anti-Iraq war cause than any one person I know of.

[Zomby Woof]

24. I do not agree

I think Chavez has every right to criticize Bush - U.S. policy directly affects Venezuela and its neighbors in profound ways. I also can sympathize with many Americans who do side with Chavez over Bush. After nearly 6 long years of miserable failure, we crave results, and we respond highly to rhetoric.

I questioned Chavez's context and timing in a thread I posted - but not his right to speak. I have no problem in extending the First Amendment to our guests. I prefer more speeches like the one he gave in Harlem to the one at the U.N. It yielded happier results.

[JeffR]

25. ****Please do not recommend this thread****

It'll be a 24-hour embarrassment on the greatest page...

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

31. I recommended it.

I don't know how many recommendations I'm allowed per day. But I'm gonna hit a limit sooner or later.

The OP's funny and makes a great point. I noticed the sarcasm, so I've got nothing to be embarrassed about.

:rofl:

[Mr_Spock]

26. I rate this a 14 popcorn thread!

Want some?

:popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

:D

[Hugin]

30. Extra butter, please.

;)

[patcox2]

32. I love tweaking the Sheehan worshippers.

Though it is kindof a cheap thrill.

[walldude]

And I love tweaking ignorant fucks who believe that

supporting the families of fallen soldiers is "worship". You are as fucking useless as any freeper troll.

on edit: I bet if you actually met and spoke to Cindy you'd be ashamed of yourself. Oh wait, you seemingly don't have a conscience or morals so maybe you wouldn't. Your OP was pointless flamebait.

[patcox2]

40. I love you too.

Aww, you're not a follower, you are supporting the family of a veteran, what marvelous half-baked spin.

[walldude]

50. I don't follow anyone, I lead. And I support people who

deserve it. You on the other hand are a fucking sheep go back to your little pen and leave the politics to the grown ups.

[lonestarnot]

47. Cheap people should expect nothing less.

[acmejack]

65. Real class Pat.

Wanna see stupid? Take a good look in a mirror, dipshit!

[bigtree]

28. this is great. another person stepping up to insult DUers

with a narrow interpretation of the myriad of views about Chavez and his joke.

Truth and reality is, we get to criticize THEIR leaders. We do it all the time.

I spend my time railing against our government for the harm they are committing in other countries. Why would I expect those who find themselves oppressed to be silent in the face of all of that? What arrogance.

[IChing]

54. Yes the DLC is out in force today

[walldude]

29. As dumb as Sheehan...

So the woman who single handedly jump started the anti-war movement, who lost a son in Iraq, who is so greif stricken that she demanded to know why the fuck her son died, who bought land in Crawford to start a peace house, is dumb. Your post is about the stupidest fucking thing I have ever seen "Never take the side of a foreigner against America". Yeah right, so even though America has slaughtered thousands of innocent children in it's quest for global domination I should back them no matter what.. Take that fucking ignorant patriotic shit to freeperville where it belongs. Jackass.

[patcox2]

39. Sheehan followers, such peace loving people.

but then again, most followers react angrily when their leader is maligned.

Sheehan was stupid, and marginalized herself, when she embraced Chavez, and she has never made a front page since.

I am patriotic, but my observation is not about flag waving, its about practical politics. Of course practical politics, which means "getting elected," is meaningless to you, isn't it? You'd much rather be heroic martyr for your sophomoric principles than do anything so cheap and sell-out as get elected.

Anyway, the point is, allying yourself with foreign nations criticizing the US is political death.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

41. You mean you weren't being sarcastic?

...

:spray:

Oh, the innanity!

:rofl:

[bigtree]

48. she lost her son. she campaigns for peace on his behalf.

politics be damned.

In case you hadn't noticed, we did the appeasement thing, and we're still out of power. Now the same folks who caused the losses with their timidity are urging us to pull back again. Why should we believe you when you claim that this is the more prudent choice? I think the appeasement is political death. Where is our party's conviction? That's what I'm looking for. I don't have any use for a party which ignores it's base to appeal to conservatives.

[walldude]

56. So it's practical politics to say "my Country Right or Wrong"

The difference between you and me is I see this as a fight for the lives of innocent people and you see it as "playing politics." To me and many like me this isn't a fucking game, it's life and death. To each his own though, if you think politics are more important than human lives then please spout your freeper crap all you want.

[RethugAssKicker]

34. What a bale of horseshit !

What are you afraid of ... retribution from the Rethugs?

Spinelsee Dems... always feeling for which way the wind is blowing, before farting !

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

35. Those durn furriners, how dare they speak out agains 'Murka?

And, how dare we agree with them?

As part of the anti-war movement I, and most people I knew, applauded Jane Fonda for her courage in going to Hanoi and standing with the people being bombed by our government.

[Totally Committed]

37. Sheehan is dumb like Rosa Parks was dumb... like Gandhi was dumb...

like Martin Luther King, Jr., was dumb. She sees a greater cause beyond what's in front of her, and acts accordingly. She's a courageous truth-teller. Ahe is no hypocrite... she lives what she believes.

I truly believe you can make your point without belittling an American hero.

As for countries not besmearching the leaders of other countries, what do you think about the things Bush said about Saddam Hussein before invading Iraq? What about "The Axis of Evil"? What about what many in the Bush government have said about the new leader of Iran? What about Pat Robertson (who says he is an "advisor" to the Bush govt.) calling for the assassination of Chavez?---- You reap what you sow, and this government has sown nothing but the seeds of derision and disrespect among the other nations of the world. It's no wonder they are getting it back in kind.

Whether you agree or disagree with what Chavez said, in light of the fact that prominent Republicans have called him names, called for his over-throw (He even says the CIA has already tried to overthrow him...), and as I said one even called for his assassination, I feel Bush got off wasy with the names he got called. Note to the Bushies: Sticks and stones will break some bones, but names at least won't hurt ya!

TC

[yowzayowzayowza]

42. I think you forgot...

the :sarcasm: tag.

[mdmc]

44. God Bless George Bush

and Joementum!

[truebrit71]

46. I'm a foreigner, I live here, what about me?

...Should I just shut up too?

[pitohui]

oh come on

that's got to be the worst argument ever, sorry man

sheehan is not dumb, she may not have political savvy, but she is not dumb

fonda was a movie star, she gets a pass on having brains, at least she had a heart

as for chavez, sorry, but if someone tries to have me killed and removed from my job, then i'm entitled to call them the devil, and i don't care what color, race, creed, or nationality -- chavez is entitled to speak up and anyone on the side of decency is right to stand aga. attempted cia coups/assassination and in favor of the witty remark

or as another poster said, boo hoo, * got called a name, too bad so sad

anyone * has tried to kill gets to cricitize the person who tried to kill him, that's an absolute right, pretty damn basic one if you ask me

[OregonDem]

49. I think what he is saying is that Sheehan associating herself with Chavez

is hurting her cause because most Americans see Chavez as extreme. It is a poor political choice to say the least. While (almost) everybody on the left disagrees with the Iraq War quite a few moderates and conservatives also are against it now. Getting support from them (moderates and conservatives) to oppose the war will be more difficult if the leaders of the anti-war movement are seen with leaders who are considered by many to be on the extreme left or anti-american. While we all have the right to say what we want or associate ourselves with whomever we want, this kind of stuff hurts our cause not helps it.

[pitohui]

58. well he formulated it poorly then

in a post calling other people "dumb" it might be helpful to use some limited level of logic

it reads as calling DUers dumb for giving two thumbs up to the witty joke from chavez and just slamming sheehan and fonda as stops along the way

reading further, i think your translation is probably the intended meaning

i still don't agree, sheehan is a private citizen who has lost her child to a bullshit war and been pretty much shit on by her country, if she feels closer to chavez than to * then i think it's only understandable, anybody with a heart should be able to see why she'd feel that way and why they'd feel the same in her shoes

anyway, it doesn't matter how well we "do" publicity and marketing, since the other side owns the media and will just make up stuff anyway even if we do everything right

[patcox2]

69. You got it. I did say it rather bluntly, didn't I?

Maybe I should have said "are making the same mistake Sheehan made."

[uppityperson]

72. maybe you should have

rather than posting flamebait

[Raster]

51. I don't have to ally myself with Chavez to agree with him. I do think

bush* is pretty damned close to being evil incarnate in Brooks Brothers. Unlike bush*, Chavez WAS lawfully and legally elected by a resounding majority of the citizens of Venezuela. And let's not forget bush* is owned lock, stock and oil barrel by the Texas Petroleum Mafia, who are pissed as hell that Chavez changed the rules and demanded a more equitable arrangement for Venezuela's oil other than 5-15% for Venezuela and 85% for exxon. And for the record, Jane Fonda being photographed sitting on the anti-aircraft gun in Hanoi was probably not the best thing for her image and career, but it was one of the events that caused many Americans to deliberate our participation in the Vietnam conflict and reach the conclusion we had no business being there. At least Fonda had the 'nads to stick up for what she believed in. And furthermore, have you had a child killed in the illegal Iraq war? Cindy can damn well say what the hell she wants.

[d_b]

52. Satire rules!

[Odin2005]

55. The OP is right.

I was pulling my hair out when Sheehan praised Chavez. We may agree with Chavez, but praising him publically ranks high on the "bad political strategy" list. The average American is an ignorant moron and has been fed BS about Chavez, Morales, etc. being evil, we have to bite out tounges and do what is politically expedient to keep the Pukes from getting material to make political hay out of.

[walldude]

63. Cindy is not a politican. She has no "political stragety"

she has a dead child and is trying to stop other parents from having to deal with the same pain she is in. Besides I don't see you or the OP doing anything worthwhile other than whining like little freepers.

[patcox2]

68. MSM reporters are actively looking for leftist support for Chavez.

You get it. Go to Daily Kos, he was called by an MSM reporter and asked about Chavez. The MSM is chomping at the bit to run stories about crazy liberal bloggers supporting the guy who called Bush the devil. Crazy chavez supporting leftists will be the meme of the day, discrediting all democrats. Rangel was a genius, he tried to torpedo it right at the outset.

From what I have seen, the only place they'll find some carzy lefties supporting Chavez is here. And at Sheehan's house, if she's home.

[SmokingJacket]

57. They're not allowed to criticize our leaders??

Um, sorry, can't agree there.

[Benhurst]

60. Yeah, we should unite behind our elected leaders. But what has

this got to do with Bush?

[dkofos]

61. You must be an expert on Venezuela and Chavez.

Or as dumb as bush.

[Nutmegger]

62. An Onion op-ed?

:popcorn:

Edit: I could use some butter over here.

[Poll_Blind]

64. Since when did shitting all over anyone who stands up become fashionable?

:shrug:

PB

[OzarkDem]

66. Another favorite GOP straw man - Cindy Sheehan n/t

[Keepontruking]

67. Dumb???????????????/

My grandmother said if you have nothing nice to say to someone
say nothing at all.  So nothing to you.

[katsy]

70. Yeah... and

we get to bomb their countries into oblivion killing tens of thousands of their people.

They don't.

And we get to organize coups against their democratically elected leaders in order to clear the way for our corporate nazis to rape and pillage their indiginous peoples.

They don't.

And we get to call their leaders names.

They don't.

BS. Any leader from any country is welcome to step up to the plate and call this administration for what it is... a phucking corporate $-making machine without conscience, without country, an amoral, evil pos that destroys anything and anyone in it's path. And they started the destruction from within with the patriot act.

[Jcrowley]

71. Do we get to criticize

their leaders? By this logic we should remain mum about N. Korea's leader and silent about the people-boiling monster who rules Uzbekistan. Does this extend into historical criticisms? Do I have to take back by harsh words about Mussolini?

I'm not sure I understand the historic similarities between the three cases you've cited. The comparison seems odious at best. Perhaps you could elaborate to strengthen your argument. Just saying it is 'dumb' doesn't really convince someone of the depth and veracity of your argument.

[Anarcho-Socialist]

73. Why shouldn't the world get to criticise the U.S. President?

American politicians and some of its citizens certainly use their rights to criticise other political leaders around the world. I am European, should I shut the hell up too? Americans are more than welcome to criticise the British Prime Minister (who is an arse) and rightfully so.

I don't think as highly of Chavez as I once did, but he is within his rights to criticise Bush.

[ooglymoogly]

74. booooolcheeeeeeeeeeat

since when does calling a spade a spade not the right thing to do

[Fenris]

75. Locking.

Do not post "flame bait" discussion topics. Please use good judgment when starting threads; inflammatory rhetoric does not normally lead to productive discussion.

Fenris
GD Moderator