Remember the good old days of airplane travel?

[Erika]

Where you got to the airport in time to check your baggage and run your carry-ons thru security within 10 minutes of take off?

But now, we have to take off our shoes, belts, etc, and arrive up to two hours to go through security?

Why? Because of four planes, of thousands flown each day, attacked governmental buildings. None of the attackers were 60 year old grandmothers or American college students.

But W is pushing terra, terra, terra, over four planes hijacked by Mideasterners and he's saying we must pay the price for their deeds. What a bunch of BS and I'm getting damn tired of it.

America needs to shed off its fear syndrome and the damn government should also. I mean, 4 planes out of all flown each day. How long do the bushbots want us to play the sissy role?

[MadMaddie]

1. Ahhh...you have hit on something not many are saying...

The tables need to be turned on the Repugs.....

Why are they such over reactive sissies....it's not about National Security it never was.....it's about Executive Power...expanding Executive Power....

And the number of planes 4 planes out of thousands each day.......that's the reality of it.....

<snip>
How long do the bushbots want us to play the sissy role?
<snip>

As long as it takes to destroy America as we know it....

[Erika]

4. I am sick and tired of this phony 9/11 event

Yes, it was horrible. It was tragic.

But enough is enough. They've overplayed 9/11 by a million percent.

We have a greater chance of dying from a car wreck or aids than we do a terrorist attack. They need to knock off the terra, terra bit.

I'm sick of it. It is totally irrational and people need to start saying that.

[MadMaddie]

6. I think many Americans are finally getting a grip...

But the biggest culprit and enabler of the last 6 years has been the media....

How does American punish the media for falling down on the job.....for misinformation...for not showing both sides of the story and all of the greys in the middle?

Yes 9/11 is a day that will never be forgotten....but what should be the Dems rallying cry is that it could have been mitigated if this administration wasn't so gung ho on trying to erase anything that Clinton did.....

[The_Casual_Observer]

2. If jr had been paying any attention at all the date 9/11 would have no

no significance at all. Those people are dead because of george bush, the people that voted for george bush, and the supreme court.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

3. I remember even better days than that

People going to see you off could go right up to the gate. (Before every unbalanced idiot with a gun tried to hijack planes to Cuba--it was sort of a fad among the unbalanced for a while--visitors could walk right onto the plane and stay till they closed the doors.)

The seats were built for normal-sized adults and you didn't have to sit with the next person's hair in your face.

There was food in coach, sometimes really good food on international flights.

When there were delays, the airlines apologized profusely and tried to make it up to you. The most amazing such experience I had was back when I was seventeen, in Europe with my family, and our flight from London to Oslo was delayed two hours. An airline (British European Airways--I think it got folded into British Air) representative led us passengers into a lounge and fed us tea and sandwiches while we were waiting.

If I were Transport Czarina, I would make airline executives fly coach at all times. I bet things would improve fast. However, the opposite trend appears to be occurring. Airlines are making their business and first class cabins more luxurious and making their coach cabins even more wretched.

[Erika]

5. Yes, the two seats per side gave away to the 3 seats

Kids now probably don't even know that.

But again why are we being punished because of 4 airplanes hijacked by MidEasterners?

It's silly and stupid.

[Mind_your_head]

7. Oh yes.....I remember.......

It was fun, exciting, enabling.....very cool to fly.

I remember being on a 747 for the first time.....and in the 'upper deck' it was decorated all pink and orange....there was a "pong" video game in the coffee table and lots of drinks....it was a very fun time to mingle and enjoy with people whom you would regularly never meet (and that's part of why it was so fun)......exciting, open-ended, chancey meeting of people/minds.....

*sigh* I loved that....I miss it......I want it back!

Peace,
M_Y_H

[Erika]

8. We need to stand up for our rights and knock off the shit

Now we can take up to 3 oz of a liquid or a gel in clear plastic? Get real. This is all a bunch of horse shit and someone needs to say it.

Again 4 airplanes on 9/11 and the W government is doing this to us?

[MADem]

9. Eons ago, there WAS NO SECURITY...no one NEEDED it

You'd go to the gate, give a smiling attendant your ticket, stroll out on the tarmac, pop up the stairs, and sit down in a nice wide seat. You'd be pampered and fed and coddled. Pillows and blankets were lovingly distributed. Some poor sumbitch wrestled with your bags for a quarter or two, so you didn't have to. You could stow a hefty dog under your seat, not just the dawgs in your sneakers.

Those days are long gone, though. Terra, terra, terra has ruined the experience. Fuel and labor costs, plus demon profit, have put that era in distant memory.

[Mind_your_head]

12. I agree....NO ONE NEEDED IT......b/c everyone wanted to come here

we aren't a "beacon for the oppressed" any longer....hell, these days, we'd oppress George Washington himself (were he still alive)!!!

:cry:

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

10. The liquids thing did it for me.

You know, I was never really bothered by the increased security after 9/11, but then I've never been bothered by airport security in the first place. I wasn't even bothered by the guys with guns in the airports, as I'm used to that from flying to various other parts of the world - many of them equally as free as the US. I even understood barring non-ticket-holders from going through security, on a practical basis - imagine how long the security lines would be if all that added scrutiny needed to be applied to four non-ticketholders for every actual passenger. The shoe thing only really bothered me because I happened to be flying on the first day they required everyone to remove their shoes, and it was chaos and poor communication all around. It irks me that it's still going on though, as I'd hoped it would have been a temporary measure until proper bomb-sniffing equipment could be installed at the security checkpoints - something that has NOT happened. So I'm impatient with that, but understanding. And I find it funny that all airport security checkpoints now smell like foot odour.

But this no liquids bullshit takes the cake. I suspect that the recent semi-repeal of this rule had nothing to do with safety and everything to do with the simple fact that this rule IS COMPLETELY UNENFORCEABLE because they SELL LIQUIDS INSIDE OF THE SECURITY CHECKPOINT. I can't count the number of times I've seen people drinking water on flights since this stupid rule came into effect. I have been a good monkey and have not taken liquids onto flights, and all I've received for my cooperation is a bad fucking bout of dehydration.

As for this being a case of fearmongering, I disagree. Nobody I know who flies is now afraid to fly because of this liquid bullshit. I suspect it's a matter of needing to be seen to DO SOMETHING, even something really fucking dumb.

Now, with respect to the people bitching about the small seats, and food, let me ask you what percentage of your income that transatlantic flight would've cost you two decades ago? Airfare is cheap these days. Insanely cheap, relative to where it used to be. If you want to go back in time to the early 80s you're more than welcome to pay the business class fare, which will probably be about the same cost, as a portion of your income, as a coach ticket from 1980.

But the food will probably still suck.

With respect to the delay problems, the simple fact of the matter is that we're out of airport capacity. We need more runways if the delays are to be reduced or even held at present levels. But for a variety of very good reasons it's extremely difficult to build runways these days. Ever read the environmental impact statement for a new runway that can accomodate big jetlines?

::shudder::

[Erika]

13. They've changed it tomorrow where liquids purchased beyond

security is Ok.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

14. Yup, and I'm flying tomorrow.

Going to be taking a bigass 2 liter bottle of water on my transatlantic flight.

[MADem]

Actually, I heard you could bring your own three ounce items

so long as they were in clear plastic and filled nothing bigger than a quart ziploc bag...and THEN, you can buy your overpriced water, Starbucks and what-have-you once you are inside the sterile area....

It's all absurd.

[EST]

11. Yes, I remember well the good ol' days of air travel.

Back when no one would even consider not dressing properly, when the travelers were not refugees from Greyhound bus.
Back when one of the best places to go to girl watch was the airport.

I remember traveling all over the US, some in Canada and a few other foreign destinations and this was something that, though quite expensive, my employers were glad to cover to avail themselves of my expertise.

Oh, yes, I remember, before the great deregulating crazies of two and a half decades ago took over and destroyed a very good system and fired all the air traffic controllers and replaced them, when they did, with amateurs--sure, I remember...

I remember when some captains did not mind having a word with passenger pilots or would-be pilots, often leaving the door open to the inner sanctum, calming a few nervous passengers and allowing the curious to peer longingly, catching mini glimpses of the marvelous spells that the initiated must cast to coax a quarter of a million pounds of mechanical monster into the dark sky.

How well I remember the obligatory bitching one had to do about the meals that were served, although they were often quite good, considering the circumstances, or at least not all that bad.

Yes, I remember fondly flying out of "Gloom" county airport, near Binghamton, N.Y. on a 404 to Pittsburg and then a Lake Central DC3, making eight or nine puddle jump stops before, hours later, finally arriving at my final destination at Kanawha airport in Charleston, W. Va.

Back when flying somewhere meant something and was almost an end in and of itself.

The last flights that I took were eleven years ago and were the most miserable experience imaginable. I watch the indignities that people have to go through now and I assure myself that I shall never, ever subject myself to that kind of cattle car handling. I do not ever plan to step onto another airliner-ever.

I prefer to live in my memories and not abuse them with modern experience.

[Erika]

15. Yes, pilots used to ask kids to view the cockpits and were truly

friendly. Flying was a pleasureable experience where the stewardesses would ask you if you need a pillow or blanket, and a meal would be served if you were flying at a meal time.

Now, there's nothing. United will sell you a snack pack for $5, good luck on finding a pillow or a blanket, and you are subjected to the UnGodly security searches and restrictions and the time delays they cause.

[bananas]

28. Yes, all depicted in the movie "Airplane" nt

[Karenina]

29. On my first flight

I thought I was all big and bad and grown up till I got to the bottom of the stairs and looked up at this HUGE metal bird. I just stood there and burst into tears. The flight attendants had no luck coaxing me up. THE PILOT came DOWN, introduced himself, took me by the hand and led me up the stairs. He showed me the cockpit, gave me wings, told me EVERYTHING was FINE and had the attendant seat me nearby (in First Class). He gave me a hug when I disembarked. There began my LOVE of flying...

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

16. Right-o.

Back when no one would even consider not dressing properly, when the travelers were not refugees from Greyhound bus.

Yes, things certainly were great before the working class started flying.

[EST]

18. Heheh-

Yup. Something to be said for some class privileges, I suppose. Your irony does not escape me.

However, some circumstances, like a beautiful sunrise on a remote hide away, are much better when shared with very few, not a vast mass of asses with the litter, excrement, noise, bad breath and smelly armpits.

The instinct impels me--the same drive that has me now living on a small farm in the woods and sharing it with few close neighbors.

Things were different, then.

[Dem2theMax]

21. WTF?

:crazy:

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

22. I have no problem with class privileges.

And nothing is keeping you from flying business or first class. But to suggest that people who prefer to dress "casual" (and let's face it here, you're talking about working class people, probably fat, etc) shouldn't even be in the terminal and thus should not fly at all is, I think, bad. Nobody is opressing you. Nobody is suggesting that you share your beautiful sunrise with a bunch of screaming yokels. But for fuck's sake don't deny the screaming yokels the chance to have their own remote beautiful sunrise just because you don't feel comfortable sharing space with them inside a one jillion square foot airport terminal.

Jesus, right now I'm wearing leather shoes and trousers from England, a sweater made by Moroccan hippies in Barcelona, and I'm sipping on a glass of scotch from a bottle that costs as much as what most people pay for a new DVD player. And now that I add up that total, it seems a bit excessive. But I wouldn't fucking suggest that anyone incapable of doing what I'm doing right now was somehow unworthy. Jesus, if that were the case I couldn't even speak to half of my own family.

[Blue_In_AK]

17. Remember when you used to be able to hang out at the gate

with your friends and relatives before they got on the plane? Those were the days.

[leftofthedial]

19. why do you hate us for our freedoms?

are you one of the terrists?

[Matilda]

20. Back in the good old days,

every now and then the Palestinians used to hijack an aircraft. And it wasn't very pleasant for
anyone, but no governments went berserk and started treating everyone who wanted to fly like a
criminal.

What they did instead was recognise Yasser Arafat and the PLO, and gave them seats at international
forums and listened to what they had to say. They didn't do much about the Palestinian situation,
but once they had the grievances were acknowledged, the hijackings stopped. The Palestinians were
on more of an equal footing - for a while, at least - and that was a start in the right direction.

I know that's a tiny bit simplistic, but perhaps if we listened to what the "terrorists" have to say
and acknowledge the wrongs being done to them, it might be a better way to go.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

23. It's not a bit simplistic, it's completely beside the fucking point.

Are you suggesting that the views of the leadership of al Qaeda somehow share the validity of Arafat's views? If you suggested that anywhere in public or in print it would get you an earful of shit from nearly everyone in Fatah and probably even a majority of the members of Hamas.

I didn't actually think it was possible to come up with a strategy for combatting terrorism that was worse than Bush's, but I'm pretty sure negotiating with Osama is it.

[Matilda]

24. You have completely misread, misinterpreted and misunderstood.

I did not mention Osama bin Laden anywhere.

What I said was that "terrorists" - and I used the quotes - meaning Islamic radicals, have a
legitimate point. The West - principally the United States and Great Britain - are backing illegal
Israeli actions against the Palestinians, have invaded a sovereign country, Iraq, and turned it
into a complete shambles, and are now proposing to do the same in Iran.

The Muslims, both fanatics and moderates are thoroughly PISSED OFF!

And what I suggested is that it might be a better idea if the US and the UK gave some attention
as to WHY they are carrying out their actions, and do something constructive instead of treating
us all as potential terrorists.

Is that so terribly hard to understand? Or do you need words of one syllable only?

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

25. OK, then you ARE massively oversimplifying it.

What I said was that "terrorists" - and I used the quotes - meaning Islamic radicals, have a
legitimate point.

No. SOME of them have a legitimate point. Some of them have a bogus point. And some of them are just murderous assholes. You might be able to deal with the first group the same way you'd deal with the PLO, but not the second and third groups.

And what I suggested is that it might be a better idea if the US and the UK gave some attention
as to WHY they are carrying out their actions, and do something constructive instead of treating
us all as potential terrorists.

You suggested that we treat "the terrorists," a term which you never defined in your original post, the same as the PLO was treated. That might work for some of the radical groups, but it won't work for a lot of the others.

As for trying to understand the motivations of Islamic extremism, Welcome to the Most Complicated Subject in the World. And one that certainly isn't well served by the sort of simplification you're trying to use to frame the debate.

And this whole thing is going off on a serious tangent from the original topic of back-in-the-day when air travel didn't suck.

[Matilda]

26. Air travel sucks because of the restrictions we are now facing.

Yes, and lack of comfort too, but that's entirely due to airlines' budgets.

I am not simplifying - yes, you will always get out and out nutters on the extreme fringe who
are impossible to deal with on any reasonable terms.

But there are legitimate grievances, and Bush's "war on terror" - whatever the hell that really
means - has done absolutely nothing to improve the situation in the ME. You may think that bombing
countries into oblivion will solve problems, but I think talk would achieve far more, and the
recognition that we don't have any automatic right to dictate to the ME the methods by which they
govern their countries. Bush is hardly an advertisement for democracy - if he'd allowed it to
survive in the US, he wouldn't ever have been president.

We all know that Iraq, and Iran, are all about oil, and Israel is about maintaining a western
outpost in the ME - and too bad for the Palestinians who are being pushed out. It is the
policies of successive governments, both American and British in particular, that have lead to
the current unstable situation, which has been exploited by extremists. They could never have
succeeded so well without western help.

And we will all pay the price in discomfort and fear until the western powers stop thinking that
that bombs and tanks will solve all the problems.

[EFerrari]

27. "Bush overreacted to 9/11" is a good frame.

Here, we know he didn't. He just exploited the hell out of it if nothing worse. But most people would agree that Bush overreacted to 9/11. Most people don't want everything to have "changed" after 9/11. They don't want to distrust every third person they see, they want to fly in peace, they don't want to know we are killing innocent people all over the world.

They are tired of being needlessly alarmed, inconvenienced and lectured to by an insane government.

My mom and I are going to start traveling to Mexico every month on business. I have to apply for a passport and it's not even attractive. The prospect of dealing with airport security is depressing. So far I've managed to avoid much direct contact with how badly Junior has screwed this country up but, this will be a very ugly reality check.

[B Calm]

30. Bush exploited the hell out of his mistake after ignoring Clinton's 8 yr

report on global terrorism!