I Am Against Torture

[emanymton]

§ I am against torture; clearly and unequivocally.

In the land of the free home of the brave, United States of America is actually bringing to a vote in Congress, a bill allowing torture. This cannot endure.

I am fifty five years old, born in USA, served in the USA military and have two purple hearts. A person actually has to come out and stand in opposition to the government of USA passing laws in favor of torture. How in the world did it come to this?



§ I am an America loving American proudly wearing the honorable label of liberal. "What ever happened to the 'land of the free - home of the brave?"

[wakeme2008]

1. most if not all real Combat Vets are against it

kick and nom :)

[Kiouni]

2. Its sad I know

but it only takes one to show the human spirit. I just finished a book called "the devil and miss prym" by Coehlo and the story reiterates this point. You have to have one person to stand up against the rest of the world and declare whats right.

[acmejack]

3. Veterans are united against this with good reason.

I think most of us feared being taken alive as it was & were determined to never let that happen. I know I personally was.

[Nobody]

4. If we torture, what differentiates us from pure evil?

If we as a nation want to call ourselves a free and honorable country, we have to be better than every adversary in our actions. If we torture prisoners, we are no better than they are. Who are the good guys? No objective observer can tell.

Torture doesn't get any useful information. Confessions are signed just to make it stop. Any information you get is unreliable because the victims will just say what you want to hear.

A series of sci-fi books you should read is by Susan R. Matthews. Start with "An Exchange of Prisoners". It's about a guy who's forced into training to be a ship's doctor (but the job description is primarily ship's torturer) and it goes against everything he believes in. You find that because most of the requirements involve killing the prisoner afterward this is extremely ineffective. This system has been going on for generations and it's evident that people are becoming inured to pain.

2008 can't come soon enough.

[aikoaiko]

5. Devil's Advocate: What if we had apprehended a 9/11 terrorist on 9/10

In another thread you said that such scenarios are BS, but it seems to me it could happen that way.

I certainly respect anyones decision to take the high road and not use torture even if it meant the probably death of thousands of their own people, but I am also sympathetic to the utilitarian ethic of the doing the most good.

In that other thread, someone said there were already laws allowing torture in emergency situations, but I have not verified that. If true, are youagainst those laws too?

[emanymton]

6. Devil's Advocate: No Torture, _Ever_!

The government had a member of the the team under arrest. So what? It makes bad drama to pretend the gang that cannot shoot straight could have prevented anything.

Torture _DOES NOT_ work. Even those who advocate torture do not believe or trust the information given up under torture.

[aikoaiko]

7. I'm still looking for sources that compare the reliability of info via

torture and nontorture methods. Can you provide any?

Yes, information provided under torture can be unreliable in the sense that some of the info is correct and some incorrect, but so can information from nontorture methods. No one that I've heard has said you *can't* get correct info under torturous methods.

[emanymton]

8. So What Is The Purpose Of Torture? To Punish And Terrorize ...

the victims. Information is not the reason for torture, it is the excuse

[aikoaiko]

9. In principle it should be to gain information.

Why do you say information is not the purpose?

[emanymton]

10. No principle In Torture. Only Pain.

Those who advocate and commit torture have no interest in anything but doing pain to victims.

[aikoaiko]

13. Thanks anyway, I see you're not really interesting in discussing the issue

even though you posted your thoughts on a discussion forum.:shrug:

I bet you could back up your position if you put a little effort into it.

[emanymton]

16. Discus What? Torture? What Aspect On Torture Have We Not ..

talked about? I am against torture. Nothing comes from it.

You want to discus torture for what purpose? I am happy to listen.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

19. Discuss my torture hypothetical scenario:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x2229930

By the way, my answer to your "ticking time bomb" scenario is: No torture.

[aikoaiko]

21. Ok, I'll go over to your thread. ;-)

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

14. It is wrong because it is evil to torture another person, regardless of

what information might or might not be obtained. There are some things that must not be done.

[aikoaiko]

24. Ok, I can respect that position.

Its a magnanimous stance.

[Spike from MN]

18. I'm the one that posted that info in the other thread.

Here's the part that refers to the emergency exception:

The info on the emergency exception for torture came from KO's interview with Bill Clinton.

Like you take this interrogation deal, we might all say the same thing, if, let‘s say, Osama bin Laden‘s No. 3 guy were captured and we knew a big bomb was going off in America in three days. Turns out, right now, there‘s an exception for those kinds of circumstances in an immediate emergency that‘s proven in the military ranks. But that‘s not the same thing as saying, we want to abolish the Geneva Conventions and practice torture as a matter of course. All it does is make soldiers vulnerable to torture and make us more likely to get bad not good information.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14999415 /

Note: the transcript states "military ranks" but in the interview, it sounded more like "military reqs" which makes more sense. Not a whole lot of specifics there but he does mention the emergency exception so the argument "but...but...what if we NEED to torture someone in an emergency" is a moot point.

To clarify my stand on the issue, I am against any and all forms of torture. I am not pointing out the "emergency exception" to say that we need it but rather just to let people know about it. It also helps refute the RW argument about "needing to torture someone in an emergency." The exception covers that particular situation so we don't need the torture bill passed in order to carry out "emergency torture." :puke:

[aikoaiko]

23. thank you for providing the link. nt.

[Bluerthanblue]

22. you are deluding yourself

into believing that your 'hindsight' 'monday morning quarterbacking'- is something that would yield results.

Didn't we have Zacharias Moussoui IN CUSTODY? While 9/11 was being plotted, and through to it's conclusion??? Wasn't HE ACCUSED of being " the 20th hijacker"? How would you propose we determine 'who' is a person that honestly, sincerely has any information that could yield (in the VERY BEST CASE SCENARIO) information that might thwart a plan to harm groups of people-
Should we torture all Middle Eastern people?- that is hardly the tactic I'd approve of any nation I could support adopting.- What about ex-military white guys, like Tim McVeigh?- How about we torture all 'male' prisoners, since, the only people who participated in the greatest acts of 'terrorism' in the US were male??? Where do you draw your lines? And what, IN ALL HONESTY, do you believe you will actually glean???

Every expert agrees, even screwed up McCain,TORTURE does NOT WORK-

That should silence anyone who doesn't see the filthily ugly truth, that matters more to me, which is that torture is terrorism. And you cannot stop hate with more hate.

[aikoaiko]

25. Perhaps I am deluding myself...

But then again, maybe you are.

I don't think anyone says torture works all the time or none of the time. No one says that nontorturous methods work all the time either. I'm still trying to learn about the efficacy of torture, but so far I've only found anecdotes. For me, much of whether or not to use torture is a practical issue, but also a moral issue. I am not looking to expand the use of torture greatly, but I am still sympathetic to the use of it when they are fairly sure they have the correct person and the info is time urgent. Apparently, there may already be exceptions to the no torture rule that have been in place for a long time and I'll be looking them up (Military Regulations). If thats true, then there doesn't need to be any more laws to expand the use of torture.

Just as I am opposed to killing people but I still condone it as an act of self-defense, I am generally opposed to torture except in urgent, grave situations to defend life.

[Bluerthanblue]

26. your slippery slope is

just 'who' defines what is an urgent- or grave- situation, and what sincere hope of 'defending life' would justify doing terrible things to people you only 'believe' intend to harm you, or know enough to be able to tell you anything that could 'defend' life-

If there have been exceptions to the 'no torture rule' in place for a long time, they need to be repealed. We had laws that prohibited women from voting, and against interracial marriage- we had laws that condoned slavery, and that allowed children to be given to people to pay off debts- (indentured servants)

Some laws that 'we have' that may have been 'in place' for a long time have shown us that we set out to form "a more perfect Union" but we sure as hell arent there yet.

Torture is wrong- ALWAYS.
Just as rape is.
Just as beating the crap out of a child, to teach them hitting is wrong is.

It is one of the few 'absolutes'

[Parche]

11. torture

If the Republicans keep this up, then I will be swayed to the other side and be FOR torture,
but just for the conservatives voting for this ignorant bill.

[SunDrop23]

12. Thank you for your service and keeping us free. To answer your question...

fascists in the White House is what happened to the land of the free and home of the brave.

[SammyWinstonJack]

15. We all as members of the human race should be against torture.

It sickens me that some of us actually condone and advocate torture. Monsters, all!

[tlsmith1963]

17. Republicans Don't Get It

They think we are against torture because we supposedly love the terrorists or something. I don't really have any love for the terrorists at all, & yet I am against torture. It's not about the terrorists--it's about *us*. What kind of people do we want to be? What kind of country do we want to live in? I want America to remain a democracy. I don't want us to be like Saddam Hussein (who tortured his people) or like the terrorists. I don't want us to be just like the people who we have fought in the past. The world will be a dark & horrible place if there are no more "good guys". People cannot live without hope. If Bush & the neocons get their way, there will be no more hope left in the world.

[Spike from MN]

20. emanymton, acmejack, and parche: Thank you for your service.

I would have put that in my earlier post but I felt it deserved a separate post. I just wish this country would serve you as well as you served it. You deserve that much at the very least.

Hope I didn't miss anybody but if I did, feel free to flame me.