Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

McCain Torture Bill - Ticket to the Hague for GOP Lawmakers

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (01/01/06 through 01/22/2007) Donate to DU
 
leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-26-06 11:08 AM
Original message
McCain Torture Bill - Ticket to the Hague for GOP Lawmakers
The Senate version of Bush’s torture Bill – S.3929 – is a classic “bait and switch” measure. It’s not a “compromise”, except between two versions of the same legislation, either of which if passed would trigger international war crimes prosecutions against the Bush Administration and GOP Congressmen. The House version is even worse, as it would among other things, seek to retroactively legalize acts of torture, no matter how severe, already committed by U.S. officials.

But, this is a highly risky strategy for GOP lawmakers. The proposed legislation violates The UN Convention Against Torture (CAT), as well as Common Article Three of the Geneva Conventions. U.S. officials partularly risk prosecution under the CAT, which contains a mechanism whereby any foreign state signatory to the convention could initiate prosecution of U.S. officials who ordered, condoned, assisted or incited torture of any person.

Under Article 21, if the U.S. shows that it is either unable or unwilling to prosecute such crimes in its own courts without “unreasonable delay” UN hearings could start immediately, leading toward war crimes trials. Passage of the proposed torture law -- either the House or Senate versions -- could trigger those prosecutions, opening Members of Congress, and Administration officials, to charges of complicity with war crimes.

***

Official Complicity with war crimes is potentially a violation of Third, Fourth, Sixth and Seventh Nuremberg Principles, which state:

Principle III
The fact that a person who committed an act which constitutes a crime under international law acted as Head of State or responsible government official does not relieve him from responsibility under international law.

Principle IV
The fact that a person acted pursuant to order of his Government or of a superior does not relieve him from responsibility under international law, provided a moral choice was in fact possible to him.

Principle V
Any person charged with a crime under international law has the right to a fair trial on the facts and law.

Principle VI
The crimes hereinafter set out are punishable as crimes under international law:
(a) Crimes against peace:
(i) Planning, preparation, initiation or waging of a war of aggression or a war in violation of international treaties, agreements or assurances;
(ii) Participation in a common plan or conspiracy for the accomplishment of any of the acts mentioned under (i).
(b) War Crimes:
Violations of the laws or customs of war which include, but are not limited to, murder, ill-treatment or deportation of slave labor or for any other purpose of the civilian population of or in occupied territory; murder or ill-treatment of prisoners of war or persons on the Seas, killing of hostages, plunder of public or private property, wanton destruction of cities, towns, or villages, or devastation not justified by military necessity.
(c) Crimes against humanity:
Murder, extermination, enslavement, deportation and other inhumane acts done against any civilian population, or persecutions on political, racial, or religious grounds, when such acts are done or such persecutions are carried on in execution of or in connection with any crime against peace or any war crime.

Principle VII
Complicity in the commission of a crime against peace, a war crime, or a crime against humanity as set forth in Principle VI is a crime under international law.


The McCain-Warner-Graham Senate Bill is not a clean bill. It has not corrected the violations of international law contained in the House version. Instead, it condones or seeks to legalize activities which are clearly war crimes and treaty violations under international law, including blocking access to court review (elimination of the ability to file habeas corpus) for detainees, rendition (“refoulement”) of prisoners to places where they would be subject to torture, and physical and psychological abuses that amount to torture.

1. SENATE COMPROMISE BILL VIOLATES UN CONVENTION AGAINST TORTURE, ARTICLE 1, ATTEMPTING TO REDEFINE TORTUROUS ACTS AS LEGAL.

The McCain-Warner Compromise as initially presented allowed the CIA to continue various forms of torture, including locking prisoners in cold rooms, severe sleep and food deprivation, and water-boarding. In the face of severe criticism, changes have been proposed by the Bill's sponsors, but the Senate Bill still allows specific forms of physical and psychological abuse that violate international standards. The UN Convention, which defines torture, forbids the following:

Article 1

1. For the purposes of this Convention, torture means any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions.
2. This article is without prejudice to any international instrument or national legislation which does or may contain provisions of wider application.


On Monday, the Washington Post reported that Senator John McCain would commit himself to the banning of only three specific practices, induced hypothermia, extreme sleep deprivation, and water-boarding. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/09/24/AR2006092400952.html

However, a number of other specific physical and psychological abuses would be allowed under the Senate Bill. S.3929 introduced by Mitch McConnell (R-KY): http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c109:S.3929:%22

Highlights --

1) approves the infliction of "transitory mental harm" (Sec. 950ss)
2) approves the infliction of "cuts, abrasions, and bruises" (Sec. 950ss)
3) Some risk of death is acceptable, as is minor "loss or impairment of the
function of a bodily member, organ, or mental faculty" (950ss b.2)
4) Non-severe physical pain has been deemed acceptable, as has minor
disfigurement.(950ss b.2)
5) The 1996 War Crimes Act is amended to allow "pain or suffering
incidental to lawful sanctions" for those in US custody (2441ss)

For the sake of comparison, contrast the above guidelines for CIA detainess with the Geneva Convention, Article 17:

"No physical or mental torture, nor any other form of coercion, may be
inflicted on prisoners of war to secure from them information of any kind
whatever. Prisoners of war who refuse to answer may not be threatened,
insulted, or exposed to any unpleasant or disadvantageous treatment of any
kind."



2. SENATE COMPROMISE BILL VIOLATES UN CONVENTION AGAINST TORTURE, ARTICLE 3, FORBIDDING DETAINEE REMOVAL TO COUNTRIES THAT PRACTICE TORTURE.


The McCain-Warner Compromise does not forbid the practice of “extraordinary renditions” of ‘high value” detainees to foreign countries where they would be subject to torture.

Specifically, the UN Convention Against Torture, to which the U.S. is a signatory, and implemented through the War Crimes Act of 1996 and the Torture Act of 2000, forbids torture and associated crimes. Article 3 explicitly forbids renditions to places where a detainee might be subject to torture:


SENATE COMPROMISE BILL VIOLATES UN CONVENTION AGAINST TORTURE, ARTICLE 3, FORBIDDING DETAINEE REMOVAL TO COUNTRIES THAT PRACTICE TORTURE.

The McCain-Warner Compromise does not forbid the practice of “extraordinary renditions” of ‘high value” detainees to foreign countries where they would be subject to torture.

Specifically, the UN Convention Against Torture, to which the U.S. is a signatory, and implemented through the War Crimes Act of 1996 and the Torture Act of 2000, forbids torture and associated crimes. Article 3 explicitly forbids renditions to places where a detainee might be subject to torture:

Article 3
1. No State Party shall expel, return ("refouler") or extradite a person to another State where there are substantial grounds for believing that he would be in danger of being subjected to torture.
2. For the purpose of determining whether there are such grounds, the competent authorities shall take into account all relevant considerations including, where applicable, the existence in the State concerned of a consistent pattern of gross, flagrant or mass violations of human rights.



3. SENATE COMPROMISE BILL VIOLATES UN CONVENTION AGAINST TORTURE, ARTICLES 13-16, GUARANTEEING THE OPPORTUNITY FOR VICTIMS OF TORTURE TO BE PROMPTLY HEARD AND GIVE EVIDENCE OF THEIR ABUSE.

By eliminating the right of Habeas Corpus to CIA detainees, the McCain-Warner Bill altogether curtails the access to federal court and international court to seek injunctions and relief from their torture. This is a direct violation of the CAT:

Article 13
Each State Party shall ensure that any individual who alleges he has been subjected to torture in any territory under its jurisdiction has the right to complain to and to have his case promptly and impartially examined its competent authorities. Steps shall be taken to ensure that the complainant and witnesses are protected against all ill-treatment or intimidation as a consequence of his complaint or any evidence given.
Article 14
1. Each State Party shall ensure in its legal system that the victim of an act of torture obtains redress and has an enforceable right to fair and adequate compensation including the means for as full rehabilitation as possible. In the event of the death of the victim as a result of an act of torture, his dependents shall be entitled to compensation.
2. Nothing in this article shall affect any right of the victim or other person to compensation which may exist under national law.
Article 15
Each State Party shall ensure that any statement which is established to have been made as a result of torture shall not be invoked as evidence in any proceedings, except against a person accused of torture as evidence that the statement was made.
Article 16
1. Each State Party shall undertake to prevent in any territory under its jurisdiction other acts of cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment which do not amount to torture as defined in article 1, when such acts are committed by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. In particular, the obligations contained in articles 10, 11, 12 and 13 shall apply with the substitution for references to torture or references to other forms of cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.
2. The provisions of this Convention are without prejudice to the provisions of any other international instrument or national law which prohibit cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment or which relate to extradition or expulsion.




4. SENATE COMPROMISE BILL VIOLATES COMMON ARTICLE 3 OF THE GENEVA CONVENTIONS, THAT GUARANTEE ESSENTIAL DUE PROCESS AND THE RIGHT OF APPEAL..

The McCain-Warner compromise bill contains provisions that make it impossible for detainees to seek judicial review of the conditions of their detention, including abuses of their persons, through the national courts or international courts. The draft Bill states:

Sec. 108:

"No person may invoke the Geneva Conventions...as a source of rights in any
court of the United States or its States or territories."
"...the President has the authority for the United States to interpret the
meaning and application of the Geneva Conventions..."


The United States is a party to both the Fourth Geneva Convention and the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, which lay out several requirements for trials of civilians detained as “enemy combatants”. These requirements include:
• the right to be informed of charges;
• to be tried without undue delay;
• to prepare and present a defense; to be assisted by counsel;
• the right not to be forced to confess, and to be presumed innocent until proven guilty.

Common Article 3 of the Geneva Conventions of 1949, which applies to noninternational armed conflict forbids:

“the passing of sentences and the carrying out of executions without previous judgement pronounced by a regularly constituted court, affording all the judicial guarantees which are recognized as indispensable by civilized peoples.”

Habeas corpus – the right of submission to a federal judge to challenge mistreatment or the terms of confinement -- is a central guarantee established in the 13th Century. Should the Compromise Bill be passed, it would effectively close the door to any judicial redress other than a summary review by the DC Circuit Court of issues bearing strictly on the conduct of military tribunals which would decide guilt or innocence, and impose sentence, up to and including death.

Under the present Bill, evidence remains privileged and confidential, and there is no guarantee that detainees or their attorneys can cross-examine witnesses or can appeal the denial of review of evidence. Even the appeal process does not meet the normal standard of due process, as guaranteed by the U.S. Constitution and Common Article 3.

These amount to very grave breaches of international law. Contrary to what the GOP bills are attempting to do, Congress cannot amend these conventions or the obligations of the United States to observe them. Furthermore, passage of an amendment that would seek or have that effect would likely trigger international enforcement under the Conventions against Torture and the Geneva Convention. For a detailed summary of the enforcement mechanism, see, http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/9/21/125733/035

While it’s less odious than the House Judiciary Committee measure, HR 6054, which left the original Administration Bill intact, this is not a law that any lawmaker should put his name on, unless it is to be remembered along these guys:



NAME:
Hermann Goering
Former Air and Reichsmarschal of Nazi Germany.
STATUS:
Convicted January 1946 for crimes against humanity by the Nuremberg Tribunals. Committed suicide prior to execution of sentence of death.





NAME:
Slobodan Milosevic
Former President of Yugoslavia
STATUS:
Surrendered April 1, 2001 to Yugoslav authorities.
Turned over to The Hague Tribunal, June 28, 2001 by the Serbian government.
CRIME:
Formally charged with crimes against humanity for actions in Kosovo - May 27, 1999. No charges have been filed for actions in Bosnia or Croatia.
LOCATION:
The Hague, Netherlands
(deceased)
home.earthlink.net/.../main/criminals/c1.htm



home.earthlink.net/.../warcrim/blaskic.gif

NAME:
Tihomir Blaskic
Bosnian Croat General
STATUS:
Surrendered in April 1996.
Convicted March 3, 2000 of 20 counts of crimes against humanity, war crimes and grave breaches of the Geneva Conventions.
Sentenced to 45 years in prison.
Defense is appealing the ruling.
CRIME:
Charged with 20 counts of crimes against humanity, violations of the laws or customs of war and grave breaches of the Geneva Conventions. In addition, charged with leadership responsibility for attacks on Moslems in and around Ahmici in 1993.
LOCATION:
The Hague, Netherlands
home.earthlink.net/.../main/criminals/c1.htm



NAME: Foday Sankoh
As the leader of the Revolutionary United Front (RUF), Foday Sankoh used brutal tactics to sieze and maintain control over Sierra Leone's diamond mines, including extensive use of child soldiers, systematic amputation of limbs, and rape as a means of terrorizing civilians into submission. Even after the UN granted immunity to Sankoh while negotiating for peace in Sierra Leone, Sankoh continued his reign of violence, at one point kidnapping several hundred UN peacekeepers. Sankoh was arrested for his crimes and indicted by the UN-backed Special Court for Sierra Leone, but died before he could be tried. www.globalpolicy.org/.../wanted/wntdinxarch.htm

__________________________________________
2006. Mark G. Levey
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-26-06 11:29 AM
Response to Original message
1. Excellent, Mark.
Edited on Tue Sep-26-06 11:33 AM by wtmusic
K&R. :thumbsup:

onedit: have you had time to go through Title II at all? At a cursory glance it looked like a fairly substantial rewrite of FISA.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
stepnw1f Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-26-06 11:33 AM
Response to Original message
2. The Dems MUST Fight This
Seriously folks.... write and call your congressmen!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
xiamiam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-26-06 11:58 AM
Response to Original message
3. THEY must be held accountable...all of them..k&r..nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
indepat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-26-06 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #3
12. Including all Dems who vote for such
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Az_lefty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-26-06 12:10 PM
Response to Original message
4. Excellent work in laying this out...
let the tribunals begin!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
formercia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-26-06 12:11 PM
Response to Original message
5. Well Done!!
K&R
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
glitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-26-06 12:19 PM
Response to Original message
6. They are sealing their own fate. Looking forward to the trials! K & R nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
gully Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-26-06 12:31 PM
Response to Original message
7. This so called compromise was nothing more than political theatre.
A way to USE McCain as a supposedly "honest man who has experienced torture," to fool the masses. AINT - GONNA - WORK!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
myrna minx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-26-06 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. I completely agree. It was a faux squabble to
make the final draft seem "reasonable". :puke:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Hubert Flottz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-26-06 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #7
17. It's not compromise
It's appeasement of a petro-fascist dictator and his criminal taodies.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
gully Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-26-06 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. Yep.
nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-27-06 04:59 AM
Response to Reply #7
22. was McCain ever tortured?
I read somewhere that a man held prisoner at the same time as McCain claims he was not tortured. It wouldn't surprise me a bit.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bif Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-27-06 09:10 AM
Response to Reply #22
24. Yes he was
I read a lengthy article about his torture. He was in solitary for several years. Had all his teeth knocked out. It was pretty grim. He knows what torture is all about.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-27-06 09:14 AM
Response to Reply #24
25. interesting
though I think he has amnesia about the event if he is so willing to make the US a torture state.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
gully Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-27-06 09:56 AM
Response to Reply #22
26. Good question.
He may not have been?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
savemefromdumbya Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-26-06 12:36 PM
Response to Original message
9. Democrats can't be seen supporting any torture legislation (filibuster)
if this ever comes to it they must stand form say NO to torture tie themsleves to the railings, filibuster - do something! I mean, what would the Democratic party stand for otherwise?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Skidmore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-26-06 12:36 PM
Response to Original message
10. Is there a group of some standing that would be willing to
Edited on Tue Sep-26-06 12:37 PM by Skidmore
step forward and state that if this legislation goes through they will bring such charges the minute the vote is over? Can that be done? Or, better yet, why not do so now since they've been breaking the law anyway?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-26-06 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #10
15. That is the question
and this one "Or, better yet, why not do so now since they've been breaking the law anyway?"

Is the truly defining question
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
IChing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-26-06 12:38 PM
Response to Original message
11. Nominated , the bill is to protect criminals that have broken the law.
Edited on Tue Sep-26-06 12:39 PM by IChing
This law holds superiors that responsible and that means the bush administration are guilty of war crimes
Following are excerpts from the Initial Report the United States submitted to the Committee against Torture in 1999



Torture is prohibited by law throughout the United States. It is categorically denounced as a matter of policy
and as a tool of state authority. Every act constituting torture under the Convention constitutes a criminal offense
under the law of the United States.

No official of the Government, federal, state or local, civilian or military,
is authorized to commit or to instruct anyone else to commit torture.
Nor may any official condone or tolerate torture in any form.
No exceptional circumstances may be invoked as a justification of torture.


United States law contains no provision permitting otherwise prohibited acts of torture or other cruel,
inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment to be employed on grounds of exigent circumstances
(for example, during a “state of public emergency”) or on orders from a superior officer or public authority,
and the protective mechanisms of an independent judiciary are not subject to suspension.
The United States is committed to the full and effective implementation of its obligations
under the Convention throughout its territory.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
indepat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-26-06 01:59 PM
Response to Original message
13. This Bill makes three senators, who I won't name, hypocrites of the first
magnitude, the biggest of a veritable plethora of un-American hypocrites.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
chill_wind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-26-06 02:02 PM
Response to Original message
14. Thank you for this. Bookmarked and K&R'd.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
hang a left Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-26-06 02:09 PM
Response to Original message
16. Great post
Can someone send it to someone in the media who would actually report on it. Or flood the lefty blogs with posts to get the information out?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Disturbed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-26-06 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. This "compromise" is a pathetic farce.
Rumsfeld Shouldn't be Fired, He Should be Indicted
by Matthew Rothschild

“Secretary Rumsfeld has publicly admitted that . . . he ordered an Iraqi national held in Camp Cropper, a high security detention center in Iraq, to be kept off the prison’s rolls and not presented to the International Committee of the Red Cross,” the report noted. The Geneva Conventions require countries to grant the Red Cross access to all detainees. “

http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0418-24.htm

Recently it has been found out that even more detainees were "ghost detainees". The fact that Rumsfeld has not been charged speaks volumes. If Congress wishes to garner any respect they should move forward with Impeachment Declaration of Rumsfeld.




Further Evidence Rumsfeld Implicated in War Crimes

Please read this important post by Marty Lederman, Army Confirms: Rumsfeld

Authorized Criminal Conduct.

Here's a key section, but there's more:

The Army's charges against Jordan reflect the view, undoubtedly correct, that the use of forced nudity or intimidation with dogs against detainees subject to military control constitutes cruelty and maltreatment that Article 93 makes criminal. It doesn't matter whether they are or are not "torture," as such; nor does it matter whether the armed forces should be permitted to use such interrogation techniques: As things currently stand, they are unlawful, as even the Army now acknowledges.

But then how can we account for the actions of the Secretary of Defense and his close aides?

On November 27, 2002, Pentagon General Counsel William Haynes, following discussions with Deputy Secretary Wolfowitz, General Myers, and Doug Feith, informed the Secretary of Defense that forced nudity and the use of the fear of dogs to induce stress were lawful techniques, and he recommended that they be approved for use at Guantanamo.

(The lists of techniques to which Haynes was referring can be found in this memorandum.) On December 2, 2002, Secretary Rumsfeld approved those techniques for use at Guantanamo -- and subsequently those techniques were used on detainee Mohammed al-Qahtani.

In other words, the Secretary of Defense authorized criminal conduct.

...

Today's Army charge under UCMJ Article 93 against Lt. Col. Jordan -- for conduct that the SecDef actually authorized as to some detainees -- demonstrates that Rumsfeld approved of, and encouraged, violations of the criminal law.

http://www.discourse.net/archives/2006/04/further_evidence_rumsfeld_implicated_in_war_crimes.html
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-27-06 01:14 AM
Response to Reply #16
21. Indeed.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ThoughtCriminal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-26-06 11:37 PM
Response to Original message
20. Could put an end to some overseas Junkets
They will have to be careful where they travel, eh?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pberq Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-27-06 08:59 AM
Response to Original message
23. Kick & Nominated
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
grizmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-27-06 10:08 AM
Response to Original message
27. This is it. This is the big fight.
If we lose this one then bush will get away with all his war crimes. Once the law gives them retroactive immunity, there's no putting the genie back in the bottle. While a law can give blanket immunity retroactively, there is no ex post facto law allowed to re-criminalize their past crimes.

Get on the phones to your Congressmen and start screaming bloody hell if you have to. Go to their offices, call all local media, don't leave one arrow left in your quiver.

All the smoke and mirrors about other issues is only there to get this bill passed. If we stop this one we've won the biggest fight (other than the elections themselves).
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
The Cleaner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-27-06 10:49 AM
Response to Original message
28. PLEASE KEEP KICKED
:kick:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Thu Dec 26th 2024, 06:27 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (01/01/06 through 01/22/2007) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC