By what standard is somebody "Rich"?

[ACause]

I like many Democrats I know are well off...some better known
personalities in the Party are dare we say...millionaires or
even billionaires...

I keep seeing on varioius threads here lamenting the
"rich"...the evil "rich"..as if being
successful is a crime almost?  

So I've done some thinking and put together this together and
then someone can stop me when I'm now "Rich" and
evil.

At age 20 I tire of working for a local butcher, because I
think I can make a go of it on my own.  I use my gifts and
brains to make hot dogs and sausages.  I then scope out the
best place in the local downtown business district.  With my
savings I manage to rent a spot, and a hot dog machine.  I
make the hot dogs and sausage in my own place.  I barely
manage to pay my costs.

At age 25 I've managed to get a sound local following of my
food, and I've bought my machine and rented another and hired
a p/t to work another corner of downtown.  I can pay my own
bills and my overhead.

At age 30 I've got hot dog vendors at every good location, and
am now expanding because I can't make the stuff in my house
anymore.  So I've gone to a bank, acquired some investors and
bought me a place for my restaurant and my office goes in the
back of the restaurant.  I have 15 employees now, with 10
additional p/t employees.  I add onto the menu with other
items I think will go good with my hot dogs and sausages.

At age 35 my restaurant has taken off..I have expanded to
three restaurants, purchased a meat packing plant in order to
facilitate movement of my product to the restaurants.  I've
now moved into an upscale gated community in the suburbs, have
a boat and dock at the shore, and can afford the finer things
for my family.

At age 40 I go National with my franchises. I buy cattle
ranches out west, pig farms in the south.  Purchase trucking
companies to move the raw products to the meat packing
plants..My product is now traded on the NYSE, and the profits
are rolling in.  I build a Corporate office in the suburbs and
move my administrative offices there.

At age 50 I split my menu and have left the original concepts
for which I started my own company and create a new
item..we'll say...pizza for arguments sake. I employ thousands
of workers across the company in the various occupations in my
company, the bank is happy, and my stockholders are happy.

So at what point am I considered "evil" because I
was successful in what I wanted?

Starting with nothing and getting somewhere I thought was part
of the American Dream...Hell..even Kerry and his wife are
worth at least 300 million.

[iconoclastic cat]

1. By being named Richard and then choosing it as a nickname. nt

[ACause]

2. I guess I fell into that one...

I mean seriously...at what point do I get demonized by parts of my own Party for being successful?

[notadmblnd]

13. at the point you don't provide health care and living wages to your

employees. I'm not saying you don't, it's just where I would draw the line. And what's up with living behind a gated community?

[Selatius]

21. Actually, that is a fairly good measure of a businessman

By guaging how well he treats his employees. On one extreme end you have a worker co-op where workers are co-equal partners in the venture. (Think Mondragon Corporation) On the other extreme end, you have a company where workers are considered little more than hands and where it's actively encouraged they seek public assistance because the firm doesn't want to spend money on health care, pensions, etc. and actively punishes workers for trying to unionize. (Think Wal-Mart) Everybody else falls somewhere in between the two polar ends.

Of course, in the third world, you can be far worse than Wal-Mart: Sweatshop labor, forced labor camp workers, and workers who have no right to unionize, no pension, no health care, being paid pennies a day. It doesn't get closer to slavery than that.

[blm]

31. There are thoughtless rich and thoughtful rich. The thoughtful ones are

applauded just as the thoughtless ones are spurned.

So - being rich is just like any other attribute - you either use it thoutfully or thoughlessly - either will get noticed.


I see that as the prevailing sentiment here - why do YOU find that differentiation a problem?

[EmperorHasNoClothes]

3. Who ever said rich = evil?

Do you have an example?

[skids]

7. Nobody, it's a straw man. n/t

[GreenTea]

4. Making around 300K a year your well off...making a lot more your rich.

[Der Blaue Engel]

5. "I use my gifts and brains to make hot dogs and sausages."

:rofl:

I'm sorry; I know this was a serious post, but that line was just great. :D

[CoffeeCat]

6. If you give an evil person money...

...they will do evil, selfish things with it.

If a decent person obtains money, they will do decent, good things with it.

Money is neutral. People are good, bad and in-between. Money becomes
good or bad--depending on the person connected to the money.

Success, money and creating wealth are wonderful and can lead people
to do amazing, generous things. Conversely, success, money and wealth
can lead people to do selfish, evil, corrupt things.

Money is like a hammer. I can build things with a hammer or I can smash
everything in sight.

It's the person...not the dollars.

[ForFuxakes]

8. As a business owner myself...

I find a couple of flaws with your argument...

1. Have you ever tried to get a business loan from a bank (or even a SBA)?

2. (Nit picking here) you can not make the stuff in your house.

How do I know this...b/c I accually tried this very thing (HotDog Stands) and they are a tough business to have. But I understand the gist of your post...

More often than not, people are not "self-made" millionares...it is passed on from gen to gen. Investors run in circles and only invest in those ventures that offer the biggest return on investment or work within the good ol boy networks.

I now have a staffing agency and I could go on for hours about how hard it is to start and maintain your own business. If you look at the American economy over the past 100 years, you will see consolidations and mergers are the norm today. Very few "new" businesses are out there. So my point is this. Most wealthy people today are not wealthy by their own design, rather they have piggy-backed on the ideas of others to catipult themselves to wealth.

[wuushew]

9. wealth is finite

therefore the more one hoards it for selfish ends the less good comes from the same dollar applied at the lower end of the socio economic latter.

Upward social mobility is now largely a myth in Amerika. Many many rich are wealthy through the dubious gains of capital appreciation and inherritance.

I have no problem with some degree of material reward, just that it be directly tied to rare and valued skills like those of attorney or doctor where one can see a direct good from the value of their labor. Passing along the family business is rewarding a child for doing nothing and proves little of their merit vis a vis the rest of society.

[LostInAnomie]

10. Yawn... It would have been nice if somewhere in your implausible tale...

... if you would have said that you actually said you did something socially responsible beside accumulating wealth. How much did you pay your workers? Did they have health insurance? Or, did you use things like public housing, food stamps, medicaid, etc. to externalize those cost so you could buy yourself another BMW? Did you use your wealth to buy off congressmen so that you taxes wouldn't be raised to fund schools? Did you look to crush union organization amongst your workers?

It's not about money. It's about using that money to harm the little guy.

[SammyWinstonJack]

11. !

:thumbsup:

[ComerPerro]

24. Hes a FReeper, he doesn't care about other people

[Ravenseye]

12. Two questions

At what point are you 'rich'? I'd say by the time you're 35, live in a gated community, and have a boat and dock, and the finer things for your family. Definately by the time you're 40, per your example.

At what point are you considered 'evil'? Maybe immediately, maybe never. If you don't offshore your work and keep jobs in America, provide health care for ALL your employees and their families and partners, make sure your factories and ranches are not just economically, but environmentally friendly, etc, you'll probably never be considered evil. If you donate some of your hard earned money to projects like school programs and other progressive causes, you'd even probably be elevated to hero status...

Yet, the opposite extreme...if you have one hot dog cart, and regularly piss in the hot dog water because you think it's funny, you're probably evil. If you are rich at 40 per your example and pay most of your employee's minimum wage, or hire illegal workers where possible to pay less, offshore your meat production to increase your profits, what you have in the country regularly bends or breaks environemntal rules, provide no health care for your employee's, have an unspoken rule to fire/not hire gay or black people, and claim offshore tax breaks for the company...You're an evil fucking asshole.

Rich isn't good or evil. It's how you get to be Rich, and what you do with it once you are, that defines you.

[skids]

14. Wow all that and you served in Okinawa, too?

Impressive.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=2530257#2530746

[ACause]

22. Ahuh...and you didn't understand my OP was rhetorical in nature?

Meanwhile yes...I did serve on Okinawa...at Camp Schwab and Butler..what was your point?

[ComerPerro]

29. oh, yeah, you were in the moon landing too, weren't you?

I remember now

[ComerPerro]

28. I'm not saying people lie about military service...

but, well, some people on the internets lie about military service.

Many FReeper vets were never in the military at all. Some of them even post on military discussion boards and share their bullshit stories until they get busted.

[ACause]

35. No worries friend..peace..I get your drift

No need for me to get riled up over nothing. I apologize if I offended.

[wicket]

15. Could you provide some examples?

I keep seeing on varioius threads here lamenting the
"rich"...the evil "rich"..as if being
successful is a crime almost?

Could you provide some links to the threads you are talking about so I can see what you mean, thanks!

BTW, welcome to DU!

[SoCalDem]

16. It's not about what you amass, it's about how you "use" it..

Most people think they want to be "rich", when they really just long for "comfortable"..

When you can just write out a check to pay your bills (without having to calculate when they checks you already wrote will clear the bank), or when you can take off work when YOU want, instead of when the "comapny" says you can..or when you don't get the shakes thinking about your old age..well in MY mind, that would be all I would ever need or want..

and above all, when you "do no harm" along the way.. that would be the goal.:)

[Selatius]

17. How many here equate rich = evil?

I'm sure there are people who resent the wealthy, but for most people, your argument is a strawman.

[ACause]

23. You're right..I should have worded my post better

Trying to down your lunch and come up with a post that comes off as intelligent is difficult.

[ComerPerro]

30. I have a feeling you meant to paint us as people who hate the rich

it was intentional

[ACause]

37. A wrong conclusion but one in which I can understand you saw it

The post was done wrong..it's just that I've been reading a lot of posts here long before I registered, mostly because I wasn't sure my post met the high standards of the majority of the posts I've read. Second..some post, though not all appear to paint a picture as regards wealth and those that have it in none to favorable a light.

[WePurrsevere]

18. Being "rich" in & of itself isn't a bad thing or "evil", it's how you use

the money you have and how you treat others who do not have.

[radfringe]

19. rich = evil?

no, being one doesn't equal the other...

it goes to one's actions in connection with aquiring wealth, what's done with it now and what will be done with it in the future..

good or evil you tell me:
at 20 you made your own hot dogs / sausages.. did you skimp on the meat and other ingredients, or inflate your prices or misrepresent your product?

at 25 you expanded and hired an employee.. did you treat your employee poorly, cheat him/her out of some wages here and there to save a buck? Cheat a little/alot on reporting taxes?

at 30 you expanded to hot dog carts.. see above and did you bash in the heads of competators to drive them off the best corners?

at 35 you have a restaurant.. more employees... and deal making in the back room with the health inspector? a little cash change hands for a pass on the dead rat found in the soup? or some "favors" to the local political bigwig for a liquor license?

at 40 you go nationwide.. now we're talking boardroom games.. special deals, stock games, grease a few more palms of politicans to look the other way? pay a lobbyist to tell state/feds NOT to raise the minimum wage, but ask for tax cuts?

at 50 everyone is happy... except the federal security commission perhaps, because there's something fishy going on with the paper work?

meanwhile - what you just typed looks like some pile of crap, send it around to 10 friends type e-mail or you'll have bad luck...

[Bill McBlueState]

20. interesting story

What makes your story interesting is that everything turns out perfectly for your hero, so he's able to go from having nothing to running a major national company in 20 years.

When people complain about the rich, the hard workers like your fictional hero aren't the target. Our argument is against how, in our system, people who are born into wealth are able to write society's rules in such a way that they hold onto their assets. Meanwhile, those of us who have to start from the bottom have absolutely no margin for error. We pay a disproportionate share of the taxes, and the social safety net we get in return has holes big enough to drop an elephant through.

In the US, some people *do* have the right combination of luck, personal connections, and hard work to go from rags to riches. Good for them. But thanks to our system, they're in a vanishingly small minority.

[ComerPerro]

25. big, major problem with your delusional RW wet dream

you try to imply that people like Bush and his supporters are rich because it is their reward for a lifetime of hard work.

But this is, of course, bullshit.

[Deep13]

26. Rich is a relative term.

From the point of view of much of the world, anyone who does not sleep on a dirt floor or who sleeps in a heated room is rich.

I find the analysis easier to make speaking in terms of social class rather than wealth. After all, to most Americans, anyone who makes six figures is rich, though they are hardly controlling the destiny of the nation. These definitions are generalities of course.

Lower class, a.k.a. working class, is broader than most people realize. Basically, a person who is paid for labor, usually per hour or per piece, is lower class. They can rent or own houses. Typically they have high school education. Higher education is often at local state colleges or community college or vocational schools. In speaking, they discuss relations among themselves as a relevant topic, that is who is dating or related to whom or how so&so's children are doing. Media interests are usually people-related. Lower class people usually eat more junk food, smoke more and are generally in worse health than the public as a whole. They are also more likely to be ethnic minorities than people as a whole. Typically they are Catholic, Evangelical icluding Baptist or Afro-specific demoninations, or fringe denomination Christian. They often do not vote or just vote the top of the ticket.

Middle class consists of skilled artisans, small business owners and licensed professionals. They are paid for a particular skill or knowledge rather than labor. They can rent but usually own. Typically they have some college education, often advanced. Locally known private schools or big state universities are the schools of choice. In speaking, career is the likely topic of conversation. Media interests usually are idea or news oriented. Typically they are in better health than the lower class, are more health conscious and smoke much less. They usually vote and are members of civic organizations. Religious trends include Jewish, old Protestant churchs, esp. Episcopal, Lutheran or Methodist, Catholic, esp. lapsed Catholic.

Upper Class generally inherit their wealth. They are usually invisible in society as they socialize only among themselves unless they opt to pursue a position of public power. They have elite education at exclusive schools which often include specialized training such as riding or other exclusive pursuits. They attend world-class colleges, often in other countries. They are almost all white and attend Episcopal, Unitarian or Christian Science churches primarily to maintain social connections. Lineage and other relationships among rich families are topics of discussion. Media interests focus on specialized personal interests. They always vote and are extremely health conscious.

[catnhatnh]

27. First, Welcome to the Democratic Underground...

...second,with this post, you will get flamed.However, after a search, I find your earlier posts have merit so I will attempt an answer."Rich" becomes "Evil" when it is used to the detriment of others...If you pay your workers poorly or deny deserved benefits you can afford merely because you know your workers cannot oppose you BECAUSE of economics, you are evil. If you use your money or personal connections to support politicians who do you "favors" you are evil (because every "favor" to you is an unfair competitive advantage over those without your net worth or connections). If you,having gained wealth and connections then endorse and support programs designed solely to continue your economic advantage you are evil. In short-it ain't the money, it's the use of money to gain continued advantage. I would gladly play Monopoly against Malcolm Forbes, Bill Gates, and Richard Branson-all of whom are smart folks.I just want to know the playing board and rules are on the level...

[JackRiddler]

32. Interesting that you can't

point at a real person who fits this Horatio Alger tale.

How about this one?

In my 30s, I was given a front company to run that started getting investments from my father's corporate friends who hoped to influence his polcies, and contracts from his friends in "procurement" inside the govnerment.

I suspect it's a more typical tale for those who are really rich (and I would start at a net family worth of $50 mil or more).

[ACause]

33. Our history is resplendent with men who started with nothing

J.P Morgan, Vanderbilt..Bill Gates surely...but I get your gist that your tale can be construed as being the "norm"

[catnhatnh]

38. Self made? Yes-but read the biographies....

Morgan and Vanderbilt were monsters-though they competed with and crushed other monsters (oh yeah,and thousands of workers)and you SHOULD ask Bill Gates where the windows source code came from-legal-sure, fair???

[Catherine Vincent]

34. You're only evil if you are.

If you're not, don't worry about it.

[trekbiker]

36. naive... like its really this simple?

maybe you end up 50 and a multi billionaire, giving to good causes, supporting worthwhile social programs and fair tax policies..

more likely, you develop a never ending need for more. More money, more control, more power. It's human nature to one degree or another. I used to think a million dollars was an incredible fortune and that if I could ever achieve it I would kick back and not need for any more.. well.. didnt work out that way. Once I hit that mark my "need" for more only intensified. Also, for people who are self made, a real sense of entitlement can creep in. I fight those feelings all the time. And the greed gene.. its in all of us. just look at how rich folks justify insane regressive tax policy. I "earned" it so its mine, need has nothing to do with anything. Warren Buffet got a 300 million dollar gift with Bush's 15% dividend tax policy. He stated it was one of the most fooish tax changes he's seen, he recognized just how unfair tax laws have become. But will he give that 300 million back?? hell no. I wouldnt either. But I'll still vote against my own self interests and oppose Bush and the rest of these crooks.

trust me, your rich weenie salesman stepped on a LOT of people on his way to the top

[sandnsea]

39. That's less than 1% of US population

And of the less than 1% who gained their wealth with the "American Dream" plan - far more of that 1% inherited their wealth from your fictoinal pizza tycoon - decades later.

In short, your "American Dream" is largely a myth that is used to sell the neediest in this country on all sorts of quality of life sacrifices that nobody would make if that illusive carrot weren't being dangled in front of them. THAT is what people call evil - not the wealth itself.

[Tyo]

40. What about the people who work for you?

Nowhere do you refer to them in other than numerical terms. I think that making a good sausage is a wonderful thing and I've got no problem at all with making money.

What worries me about your little scenario is that you are making your bank happy, your are making your stockholders happy, your are making yourself and your family happy, but you don't seem to give a rat's ass about your employees.

[maddezmom]

41. locking

OP is no longer with us.