Should torture be a litmus test?

[boolean]

We're always bitching about litmus tests. Who should be considered a "true" Democrat/Liberal.

To me, anyone -ANYONE- who authorizes the president -let alone THIS president- to "define" torture is not only not a Democrat, but shouldn't even be considered a human being.

I am outraged beyond belief right now. I don't even know how to express in words how absolutely disgusted I am. One of the biggest reasons they gave for the Iraq war (AFTER the couldn't find WMD, mind you...) was because Saddam tortured and killed and was evil.

Well take a look in the fucking mirror!

Every single fucking "person" who votes for a republican, who knows full well that said republican authorized this, is a piece of shit, period. The same goes for every fucking Democrat that supported it. These people are evil and are all going to hell. Every single last fucking one of them.

[mmonk]

1. Yes.

Also, due process. If someone doesn't support due process, they are garbage.

[sproutster]

2. Yes

[w4rma]

3. Without a doubt. (nt)

[nealmhughes]

4. Yes. We thought Voltaire had had the last word on that topic prior to

1800, with everything else mere corrolary, I guess we were wrong. It is the most un-Western idea that has ever been broached...it is repugnant at the Common Law and statute levels as well as common sense.

[boolean]

6. It's official then!

chimpler has set the country back over 100 years. Today's vote makes it official!

[ljm2002]

5. Yes.

Absolutely.

Quite apart from the immorality of torture, there are the purely practical considerations:

1 - it does not get better intelligence, in fact, quite the contrary: people who are tortured will make up stuff to tell you so you'll stop torturing them

2 - it means more of our soldiers will be tortured, and we will not have a leg to stand on when complaining about it

3 - it means that more of our soldiers will become trained monsters, or, will be crushed by the guilt (those who have any conscience left)

There is nothing, nothing at all to recommend it. And we need to be very clear on this and make sure that our representatives are also.

[leftchick]

7. EXCELLENT Post!

thank you thank you for saying what needs to be said. If only the DEmocrats listened to us.

:cry:

[BuyingThyme]

8. Thank you.

[MadHound]

9. Yes, of course it should

But in this, an election year, watch out for the echo chamber effect around here. Too many people will be jumping all over you, saying that we've all got to lockstep vote Dem, no matter their record, no matter what they stand for, no matter whether they've endorsed torture or not. After all, we must regain control of the House and Senate in order to have a kinder, gentler version of corporate controlled government:eyes:

[aquart]

10. Our constitution FORBIDS "cruel and unusual punishment."

Torture is what they were thinking.

[stepnw1f]

11. Absolutely....(nt)

[mmonk]

12. We should send this thread to congress.

The only problem with that is we might be "detained".

[tblue37]

13. YES! (eom)

[MrCoffee]

14. NO LITMUS TESTS EVER!

Litmus tests are an easy way for people not to pay the slightest bit of attention to the political process, not to even try to understand the nuance of electioneering and governing, and are ammunition for the talking heads.

Anyone who thinks a litmus test for any issue is a good idea is wrong.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

15. Call it something else then.

Because anybody who supports torture can fuck off.

[MrCoffee]

19. Don't you mean anybody who supports abortion can fuck off?

i'm not snarking you. i'm really not. My post was to state my opinion that "litmus tests" allow people to immediately turn their brains off and ignore the political reality.

i'm not defending torture. And i'm not attacking you. i just get very very nervous when people start waving "litmus tests" around.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

21. No, anybody who's for outlawing abortion can fuck off.

Now, usually the concept of "you're either part of the problem, or part of the solution" is something I disagree with.

When it comes to human rights violations, however, I draw the exception.

Anybody defending this shit- that includes these congressmen, and their supporters can fuck off.

This isn't some flat-tax debate, or re-drawing districts controversy.

The excuse used to be "I was only following orders." What's next? "I was only voting for my party?"

[MrCoffee]

22. I agree, this is not your typical issue...and i agree that torture...

is abhorrent. And yes, i even agree that the Dems who vote for this POS bill should be tarred, feathered, and run out of the party on a rail.

But again (and i probably won't budge much on this), litmus tests are bad news. That was the point of my post, not to defend the indefensible.

[Marr]

41. Pardon- misplaced post.

[boolean]

18. Give me the nuance of torture

I'd like to hear just when it is ever acceptable to be pro-torture, ever, besides the case where a gun is being pointed at your head when you're voting for it.

[Marr]

42. There is no nuance in the legalization of torture, or the suspension of

Habeas Corpus- none. You're either openly against it or you're a god damned fascist. There is no in-between here.

Eventually you reach the point where the agenda is so deeply sickening that yes, a litmus test is completely justifiable.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

16. Well guess I gotta go vote Republican now and add to their power base

I don't really see that as a good alternative.

[Nutmegger]

17. WTF is wrong?

I can't believe the Chimp-in-Chief is now allowed to torture. Once again, political fear trumps all.

[PsychoDad]

20. If not torture, then what?

What would be a better test of evil than the willingness to torture another human being?

[mmonk]

23. That's just it. There really isn't anything bad enough people

will stand up against in our government NO MATTER HOW BAD. That is being proven.

[nicknameless]

24. YES!!!

[many a good man]

25. Is it really torture?

Or are we all victims of group think? Is there any way that we are reading this wrong? It's too hard for me to stomach the idea that we are really going to legalize torture and take away habeas corpus.

But the more I read and reread the more I see it's true. You can't call it anything but legalizing torture. Part of me doesn't want to believe it's true.

If this bill doesn't call for a filibuster, none ever will. Why can't someone just pull this bill and reconsider it after the election? Who is calling the shots and making every Senator sit on their hands???

[gully]

26. What Democrats are supporting this legislation?

I don't know of any?

[MrCoffee]

27. 34 House Dems do...and 2 US Senators

[gully]

29. Did it pass?

? I've been gone most of the day, sorry.

[bvar22]

30. The two Democratic Senators who believe that TORTURE..

The two Democratic Senators who believe that TORTURE is a GOOD thing, and that TORTURE should be an American Moral Value are:

Mary landrieu, Louisiana

Ben Nelson, Nebraska

[Generator]

38. Defacto fucking proof that voting for DINOS is wrong!!!!!!!!!!!!!

They aren't not on our side. I could live with it being passed if every single damn Democrat (save maybe one lone nutball) opposed it and lost. I could live with that. But this is unforgivable. They are either, as I've always said, deluded (dumb) or evil. Both are not acceptable in someone you need to protect you. YES, I'd rather have a Republican in those seats. Because..ladies and gentlemen..that's what they really are. They have stained the Democratic party name, legacy-whatever forever in my eyes. That's why you don't let traitors onto your team-because they betray you when you MOST need them.

[SmokingJacket]

28. This is about as close as ANYTHING can come to being

a perfect litmus test.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

31. NO! Torture is good for 'Murka, it protects our "freedoms".

Besides we know that American soldiers and the CIA are humanitarians who recoil at the very thought..just look at how nice they treated those folks at Abu-Ghraib, Bagram, Haditha, Fallujah, and Guantanamo.

Besides, voting against such an American ideal would upset the "moderates" who always know best.

[AzDar]

32. Yes. n/t

[Orsino]

33. Keep going with that thought.

What do we say about a government and a population that generally condone torture--or condone torture that we don't have to look at, and can pretend doesn't exist? Aren't we just outsourcing it?

[scarletwoman]

34. Damn straight! THIS is the line -- you cross it, that's IT.

This isn't just a travesity against our own Constitution, it's rescinding the goddam MAGNA CARTA!

k & r
sw

[Jack Rabbit]

35. Reply

Please click here.

[Seabiscuit]

36. If not, then what? Yes, of course!

[kerry-is-my-prez]

37. As long as the majority of Merkins support it - it will keep going on

They will keep on voting for bozos until perhaps they or their own family is dragged off to Gitmo.

[Fovea]

39. If this is not the bright line

then there is no bright line.

[cosmicdot]

40. as a Democrat or as a Traitor?

This is beyond party politics ... this is about saving this country and our Constitution.

We may have to hire a cruise ship to get them all to the Hague court.

[Marr]

43. Dems need to do more than just not vote for it. They need to filibuster.

If they don't, they can go to hell for all I care. I won't support them ever again if they won't stand up for something this fundamental.

[donheld]

44. Let's torture politicians till we get their honest opinion on this

:shrug: Sounds good to me. Anybody for waterboarding? Politicians have to go through the process before they can vote to do it to others.