Anyone who sanctions torture should be removed from office?

[symbolman]

I've repeatedly stood up for Democrats on this board, and lambasted people who lambast Demos for their own personal or egoistic gain (altho I did create a flash tearing into LIEberman, only because LAMONT to me is the ultimate Democratic and represents those Ideals), but at this point I am SICKENED that ANYONE would vote to sanction torture, give Bush broader powers to torture, detain without counsel, as well as a back door pass to shine on the War Powers act, authorizing any FAKE war he wants.

Might as well tell Congress to go home.

My quandry is, altho I am a stalwart Democrat I still in my heat believe that ANYONE who voted to give Bush these powers, or FOR TORTURE, should NOT BE ELECTED or should be REMOVED from Office. ANYONE.

Is that wrong? Am I a traitor to the Democrats? What is the stance here on the DemocraticUnderground on backing Democrats? I mean, sure we can have our Hillary bashing in a tasteful way, and calling out YellowDogs and DINOS, but in the end, can WE support the TERRORISM of TORTURE and Democrats Sanctioning it?

I can't, it's a BIG STEP towards a nation that I wouldn't want to even live in - the fear is going to get deep and Black. Remember, if they can do it to anyone, they can do it to US as well. Are they selling out so they can WIN the Senate and House back, and THEN turn around and RESCIND these laws?

I don't think they are that wily, at least they haven't been showing it for a long time.

I think this is an important debate, at least on this board, not trying to flame Democrats, just trying to understand them, but also saying I cannot CONDONE Torture of any kind, been subjected to it by Chicago cops as a youthful, just released from Nam service freedom-loving idiot who thought saying NO to cops made me a free man, for having protected my country. It was ugly, and I was subjected to police torture more than once. I don't want to see it become the "norm", or LAW.

Opinions?

[Marr]

1. Anyone who supports this should be removed from the country,

not just their political office. If this isn't treason, I don't know what is. It's digusting.

[BuyingThyme]

2. Welcome to the party.

[MoseyWalker]

3. I still have a hard time believing there is even a debate

in this country about torture.

I wouldn't vote for anyone that votes to condone torture for any reason. Period. Anyone who votes for torture is not truly a democrat, in my opinion.

That's what I think about that.

[lonestarnot]

6. There wasn't a debate. LOL

[MoseyWalker]

9. Seems to be a discussion with people disagreeing

and expressing their opinions. Sounds like a debate!

:)

[lonestarnot]

13. I'm referring to the vote today on CSPAN that I partially watched

before I got sick to my stomach.

[MoseyWalker]

15. I understood your point!

:thumbsup:

good job. I still gotta say that without CSPAN, I'd be a little bit more lost!

:hi:

[lonestarnot]

18. Me to MoseyWalker, me too.

:hi:

[symbolman]

11. I agree.

WHERE in the Democratic Platform does it say WE CONDONE TORTURE?

If nothing else we need to run campaigns DENOUNCING TORTURE, showing how it goes back to the middle ages, doesn't gain info of any value, is abhorrant and NOT THE AMERICAN WAY.

I'ts a GREAT THING TO RUN ON FOR US, AGAIST BARBARISM and FOR CIVILIZED Behavior.

Democrats DO NOT TORTURE, be believe in the American LEGAL SYSTEM. I mean I'm personally not against assassinating a Despot even in a soveriegn nation, if that is in our interests, but TORTURE is Madness.

And that doesn't even address the parrallal Judicial system they are creating. This will make bush a DICTATOR, with no real USE for CONGRESS at all..

[Nikki Stone 1]

4. YES

I almost never use this word, but torture is truly UnAmerican.

[Javaman]

55. It's truly un-human. nt

[lonestarnot]

5. I just don't know what the fuck to think about it all. I am so

disgusted with the fucking freaks in Washington that are supposed to represent their constituency and don't that I could just, well what? scream? won't do any good, what write letters, doesn't appear to affect shit, what? what then?

[me b zola]

7. They have violated their oath of office and the Constitution

:grr:

[indepat]

44. And Amerikans will return to office almost all who vote for this

[specimenfred1984]

8. So don't support anyone who's in favor of the crime of torture

It's a crime, it's torture.

If you've got a real candidate who's against it go ahead and vote for them, it sounds like the only choice a human can make. If you've got a dem and a repuke as your only choices and both are pro-torture then you're screwed.

[TechBear_Seattle]

Anyone, of any party, who votes to authorize or otherwise sanction torture

... is a traitor, pure and simple. Anyone who would, in turn, vote to keep a traitor in office is himself a traitor.

If voting to keep proven traitors in office because of a letter after their name is more important than voting them out, then this country has sunk too low to be redeemed.

[ClayZ]

16. That is right! n/t

[TechBear_Seattle]

42. Does anyone have a list of the traitors who voted for this?

I'm particularly interested in knowing which Democrats, but a list of all Aye votes is what I'm looking for.

[ClayZ]

46. Posted here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x2237849

f any of these bastards are YOUR representive, I hope you will let them know without delay that they will NEVER get your vote (or campaign contributions) again -- and make sure you tell them why.

Here's the list from thomas.gov -- unfortunately, except in cases where there is more than one rep. with the same last name, the list does not indicate which states these people are from. Hopefully, DUers will know their own:

Andrews
Barrow
Bean
Bishop (GA)
Boren
Boswell
Boyd
Brown (OH)
Chandler
Cramer
Cuellar
Davis (AL)
Davis (TN)
Edwards
Etheridge
Ford
Gordon
Herseth
Higgins
Holden
Marshall
Matheson
McIntyre
Melancon
Michaud
Moore (KS)
Peterson (MN)
Pomeroy
Ross
Salazar
Scott (GA)
Spratt
Tanner
Taylor (MS)

Complete roll call can be found here: http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2006/roll491.xml

sw

[TechBear_Seattle]

49. Thanks!

:hi:

[Individualist]

50. Hear, hear!

"Anyone who would, in turn, vote to keep a traitor in office is himself a traitor."

I find it disgusting that people who value party loyalty above decency and integrity are attempting to browbeat others into voting for the war crminals who support torture.

[Phredicles]

10. Well, nothing lasts forever.

And when the Soviet-esque collapse and dissolution takes place it may feel like a relief.

[Wisconsin Larry]

12. I would take it one step further. It's not enough that anyone who

votes for torture be removed from office. But anyone who does not stand up in front of this train and shout it down should be shamed. I've posted elsewhere that the absence of Democratic opposition to this bill is abhorrent. Where's the strong statements of opposition, the filibuster? Why the silence as the faux Republican opposition carried on only to collapse? And if it's political that's idiotic too as Glenn Greenwald points out in salon.com war room.

"Beltway Democrats and many of their supporters seem incapable of understanding that their central flaw has not been that they are "too liberal" on national security, but that they are perceived as standing for nothing. They appear weak and unprincipled not when it comes to standing up to the terrorists, but when it comes to standing up to the president for what they actually believe. Support for the torture bill is unconscionable; that ought to go without saying. But it is also politically self-destructive, because it depresses their base (who wants to vote for a party that supports the president's torture bill?) and inflames the perception that they are unwilling to fight for their convictions unless doing so is politically expedient." -- Glenn Greenwald http://www.salon.com/politics/war_room/index.html scroll down for it

[NoBushSpokenHere]

14. Have they outlawed "Citizens Arrest" yet?

Well ---- it is a thought?

[Jelperman]

17. I agree mostly

Those House members who voted for the most vile thing to reach the floor since the Fugitive Slave Act are dead to me. I will not vote for them, send them money or bother to defend them against Republitards. If the Democrats in the Senate don't filibuster the Torture Act, I'm through with the party as a whole.

[w4rma]

19. Yes. I am in full and total agreement. (nt)

[symbolman]

20. I'm afraid of speaking out at this point

Here's where I can see this going, worst case scenario.

If you "trash" Bush, you are a APPEASER. An Appeaser is "aiding the Terrorists", hence you may become an "Enemy Combatant", subject to the LAW, giving Bush or his subordinates the ability to DISSAPEAR YOU.

Sounds impossible, but believe me, in my 50 years of life I would never have DREAMED in my wildest dreams that we'd be at THIS POINT in our history.

This is a Major Turning Point in this country and should NOT STAND.

If we don't stop this, then this will be where America USED TO BE.

FEAR of terrorists is nothing compared the FEAR I have of my own Govt at this point.

[katsy]

21. Torture

You know, I've raged against the Democrats many times... bankruptcy law, giving the phucking monkey war powers, alito, roberts, patriot act etc etc etc.

But to deny them my vote? No. Not until now. Torture crosses a line with me.

Right now I'll take some time to grieve for amerika (never spelled it that way before now).

Tomorrow I'll take to emailing and calling my reps to plead for what's left of our honor, humanity, decency.

That won't make a difference but I must try.

Someone posted (earlier on this thread) that we don't matter. At least I think someone did. If not, it was my own sadness echoing in my mind. In any case, I don't believe we do matter. Every time the Democrats caved on issues I heard "but we must win" the independants, the religious junta, the military vote, the corporate junta, the moderates... it was always a freaking emergency and always having to win someone's vote in order to grab power. Always a fucking emergency, always for someone else.

Well, they never crossed the line between humanity and inhumanity before.

I don't know what to do. In the end, I believe we all have to face the one in the mirror.

[Rex]

22. Yes and boy howdy do they rule everything and have been forever.

I'm thinking of what my not so long ago ancestors did to the Native Americans. It seems to be a shame we just keep doing the same shit over and over. I always assumed technology would do away with stupidity, but no. Guess not.

[ninkasi]

23. Torture is wrong

Any Democratic member of Congress who votes to condone torture is morally bankrupt. I will not vote for, nor support, any Democrat who votes for it. What is the difference between us and the terrorists, if we engage in immoral and brutal behavior? The things Bush wants to do make us no better than any other rogue state.

How can any Democrat who votes yes on this stand to look at him/herself in the mirror? It was spoken first about the Clinton/Monica episode, but how do we explain to the children of America
that their country supports torture, and that people can be imprisoned, held for years, then tried without every seeing the evidence against them?

Will we make revisions to our American History and Civics classes to include these new travesties? I would hate to have to explain this to a child who has been raised to be proud of America, that the country we used to teach them about no longer exists.

[William Bloode]

24. Yes!

Removed from office, and taken to prison. Any Dem who votes for this becomes my enemy.

[pat_k]

25. Supporters of the War Criminals Protection Act of 2006 are accessories aft

. . .after the fact.

Supporters of this bill they may find themselves joining the War Criminals in the dock at the Hague.

[Marie26]

26. Yes

I'd support a Republican who voted against this over a Democrat who voted for it. It is that important.

[TahitiNut]

29. If those were my only two choices, I agree.

It is that important.

[OneBlueSky]

27. the Patriot Act vote I can forgive, because I have to . . .

the Iraq War vote I can forgive, because I have to . . .

the bankruptcy bill vote I can forgive, because I have to . . .

I have to forgive all of these because I want to see Democrats elected, and too many Democrats have voted for these abominations -- and many, many others . . .

this one I cannot forgive . . . because it goes to the very essence of what it means to be not only a Democrat and an American, but a human being . . .

forgiving a vote for legitimizing torture as national policy is impossible without losing your own identity as an Democrat, as an American and, most importantly, as a human being . . .

[chill_wind]

28. Well said, though I am less forgiving on all recited counts.

What you just recited is a final converging pattern, one of capitulation and complicity, leading now to The War Criminals Protection Act.

Now, following the suit of the CIA seeking out legal insurance to cover abuse allegations, it is all about giving Bush and the CIA, and by extension themselves, cover. Legal protections from consequences that some in the government, like the CIA itself, have finally figured out could be for real.

It is not about "we the people." It is not about governance. It is about the stark cold choking fear of what they've helped facilitate. It is a race to save themselves. Legal and political amnesty.

[symbolman]

33. I agree

well said.

This boils down to plain old HUMANITY. And cover for War Criminals.

How can a country that led the world, that could FEED the world sink to these depths?

It didn't take Hitler all that long, only a few years and a few laws passed.

Personally I think that Karl Rove knows no bounds, and that he himself is so utterly damaged that he thinks of us as chumps and toys.

If there was ever anyone that needed to be drug to the Hague in chains, it's HIM.

[Dover]

36. I was unhappy with the way Dems were voting BEFORE Bushco

was even a whisper for the presidency. We ought to go back ten years and review exactly the direction this country has been heading. It's all been VERY pro-business.

[Dover]

37. I was unhappy with the way Dems were voting in Congress BEFORE Bushco

was even a whisper for the presidency. We ought to go back ten years and review exactly the direction this country has been heading. It's all been VERY pro-business.

[SmokingJacket]

53. Exactly. nt

[malmapus]

57. Couldn't of said it better myself.

I've grown so sick of hearing that this was even an issue. Torture for Christs sake! What kind of country is this we live in now??

[never cry wolf]

30. 5 words. John Conyers with supoena power....

Think of the alternative. Would a repuke in the seat of a dem that voted for torture have voted differently?

[Jelperman]

45. What difference does it make if

Conyers has subpoena power? Once this passes, the Republic and the rule of law are dead. They've been on life support for a good long time. The Republitards announce their intention to storm into the hospital room with a machete and yellow-bellied Democrats cower under a table somewhere wondering "Maybe we should let them pull the tubes after all -no need to rock the boat and I like my job here in the hospital." If they can't come up with 41 votes then they are useless and giving them all 425 in the House and 100 in the Senate won't make any difference.

[never cry wolf]

48. I beg to differ

There are many good dems, most do not crumble under. Men like Conyers being chairmen of the most powerful committees, setting the agenda, have the majority of committee votes and having supoena power is the only way to chip away at the damage this admin has done. Conyers would head Judiciary, where articles of impeachment start.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x2199017

Should the Democratic Party regain control of the House of Representatives in the ‘06 midterms, members of the Progressive Caucus will find themselves in charge of committees with incredible power.

Ten members, at minimum, will become chairmen: Barney Frank will chair Financial Services; John Conyers will chair the Judiciary; Charlie Rangel will chair Ways and Means; Henry Waxman will chair Government Reform; and Louise Slaughter will chair Rules. Several more will chair important subcommittees.

That is the government.

Our agenda will be their agenda. Our ideas will become their policy proposals. Our demands for reform will become their causes, and they will, by the way, have subpoena power during the last two years of this administration.

[Philosoraptor]

31. seems simple enough to me.

There is no black and white on this issue

[Dover]

32. Here's a great Democrat......

and I can pretty much assure you there isn't anyone who has come along since that has filled his shoes or had his courage.

If you haven't seen this speech, please take a moment to watch. JFK describes exactly what we are up against, and it ain't like anything we've faced before. It's beyond politics. He foresaw it.....we've been warned. But will we see? Will we finally have that moment of clarity?
We continue to try to play the OLD game as though nothing was really so wrong that a good
election or the right candidate can't fix.

http://welcome-to-pottersville.blogspot.com/2006/09/voice-from-grave_02.html

[Red Right and BLUE]

34. I agree.

And I second the rare but true:

"UnAmerican."

[Disturbed]

38. I was stunned to read that 34 Dems voted for this travesty.

The Busholini Regime and Congress is sinking low into the mire.

[midnight]

35. I agree with you..... We cannot allow what we assume are

law abiding elected officials to think for one instance that policies to torture are acceptable. I'm so sorry that police brutality finds its way into carrying out this mindset in our Country..... So sorry for your abuse. I think an amendment on the new paper ballots,this Fall, would be a great start to addressing this issue.

[Hubert Flottz]

39. I agree!

They're fascist pigs!

[mom cat]

40. My loyalty is to the principles upon which this country was founded, not

to any party or organization. I have supported the Democrats for a long time because they most clearly represented those values, the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.
Some Democrats are still staunch defenders of those values and I stand behind them 100% There are others, particularly the DLC ilk who are selling us out for their own enrichment and self aggrandizement. They must be purged. ANYONE who would authorize torture, destroy the right to habeas corpus and vote for a law that would attempt to absolve those who have committed war crimes and crimes against humanity has violated their oath of office to defend. protect and uphold the Constitution of the United States of America. They should all be impeached and convicted of aiding and abetting war crimes, crimes against humanity and treason!

[Jacobin]

51. Thank you. Well said

This isn't about cheering football teams. This is about the death of our country.

[mom cat]

63. Thanks for putting it so well!

[Lerkfish]

41. this country should not torture. period.

however, as much as I hate to say it, we need to elect even those democrats who voted for torture.

its hard for me, because as a christian and a pacifist, I abhor war and I abhor torture to the depth of my being.

But the pragmatist in me says that once we are beyond the primary, we absolutely must elect democrats over republicans THIS TIME.

But after this election, if the next two years progress as I fear they will, it may be too late to vote for anyone, but if it isn't, we need to clean house in the primaries and remove ANY and ALL democrats who voted for this and replace them with democrats who would not.

we have turned an evil corner this week. We have joined the Nazis in declaring torture is an acceptable policy instead of a crime against humanity.

I cannot condone, nor defend, nor justify, nor even fathom, the violence this does to our constitution and the grave sin it represents against our forefathers and even our relatives who fought in WWII to PREVENT this sort of thing from ever happening again.

[bigtree]

43. If we leave the republicans in power, the responsible Democrats

who voted against the measure, won't have a chance to set things right again. Politics, with our feeble, two-party system, is not a zero-sum proposition. Incremental change and hard slogs come with the territory. It's a system which is designed for compromise, but it's also designed to accomodate individuals who can persuade and build support enough to convince a majority. All of the benefits of the party in the majority play into that.

I hear your dilemma, but you should know as well as anyone that abandonment of our party now will only enable the worsers. We need the majority to do anything more than protest.

In the meantime, isn't there something we can do in the courts to address this?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

47. Removed from office and tried as war criminals.

[SmokingJacket]

52. I won't vote for any of them, ever.

This has gone too far. THEY'VE gone too far in taking my vote for granted. I am a loyal democrat, but those who've voted for this have smashed my loyalty.

It is that basic.

[mod mom]

54. I agree. When do you say enough is too much? I too am sickened.

If being a Democrat means supporting someone who votes FOR TORTURE-then count me out! NOT IN MY NAME-PERIOD.

[indepat]

56. By their works, the enemy, both foreign and domestic, shall be known

[Individualist]

58. kick

[KoKo]

59. Dems should have Walked Out and Shut the House and Senate Down

long ago. It would have been their OWN .."pre-emtive strike."

but..they didn't. I don't know what to say about that...but it bothers me and others alot. :shrug:

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

60. Immediately.

[Individualist]

61. kick

[mmonk]

62. You think like those that wrote the constitution.

That's also how I think.