Torture is NOT the main thing that bothers me

[uppityperson]

Yes, approving torture and the "information" that you get from it is horrible, but what really really bothers me is language that says the president can "interpret the meaning and application" of the treaty. Damn them all, why are they doing THAT? Is this even constitutional? Not that that would stop them right away, but still. Do they really expect to be in power forever or do they really wish that their opponent have this power also? I don't understand how they can do this, and really am afraid of giving the executive branch this judicial power.

[Rex]

1. They believe in the Divine Right of Kings.

I really didn't believe grown adults were this stupid. Say goodbye to the Magna Carta. Say hello to the Early Middle Ages!

[Erika]

2. Or Dark Ages

They place all power in one person because of a dependency need. It's a Jim Jones thing.

[Rex]

5. Yes Jim Jones really does describe it better.

Or maybe the 1600th century. Seems like they are feeling their crusader roots. Scary scary scary shit IMO.

[uppityperson]

3. I know, it is amazing.

The only things I can figure is they are this stupid, or they believe they will be in power forever. I have a rw acquaintance I want to ask "would you support Clinton having this power" and see what she says. Maybe this will shed some light on it for me, until then, I just don't get it but am really really angry about it. Seems giving president the right to interpret is a bigger sin than just torture because it legalizes torture forever, you know?

[Rex]

6. Yes and the mere fact that he can, he doesn't even have to acknowledge

the act now. I tried to make other people understand; 6 years ago the Supreme Court of the United States put George Bush in office, 6 years later he has the right to arrest and detain all of the members on the SCOTUS bench and everyone in Congress. The protest would be great, yeah but they would be just one of us, without any representation, habeas corpus rights no Magna Carta no contact with the outside world.

Funny, haha, but all legal. Not so funny haha.

[uppityperson]

9. indeed. legalizing torture is only the icing that is seen

underneath is the rot, the corruption, the powermad and terrorising.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

14. I like to ask them "Would you want HILLARY to have this power?"

They think that Bill is too nice....

[gumby]

4. The problem with "fascism" is that it defies definition.

There are "aspects," but no concrete definition that I know of.

Fascism doesn't make sense.

Remember this?: ...According to Mr. Suskind, "The aide said that guys like me were 'in what we call the reality-based community,' which he defined as people who 'believe that solutions emerge from your judicious study of discernible reality.' " The aide told Mr. Suskind, "That's not the way the world really works anymore. We're an empire now, and when we act we create our own reality."

Keith Olberman read from Orwell the other night; 'power for power's sake, torture for torture's sake.'

The power and the torture don't have an end. They are their own end. They have no result except to result in more of the same.

This is why fascism is so hard to grasp. It doesn't make sense.

But make no mistake, fascism always ends up with repression at home and lots of dead 'over there.'

It seems that fascism must be defeated from an outside source. If that's the case, this country is in for a very large dose of reality. The world is not going to put up with Baby Bush much longer. Something is going to happen. Maybe not....

[uppityperson]

7. I keep hoping they are too stupid to follow through with it.

maybe, maybe not indeed

[gumby]

12. "Stupid" is a value judgment.

These people have no "values."

That was my point. If you use use value judgments like "stupidity," then you miss the point.

Fascism has no point other than power for power's sake, torture for torture's sake.

It's very difficult to understand what's happening, because at it's core, it doesn't make sense. But, it IS happening, and multiple of thousands have died. Many more will die.

This unreality that we see IS real. "Stupidity" does not even bother those who create their own reality.

[uppityperson]

13. Try this wording.

I hope they do not get it together to follow through with everything they could do about this. I hope they are working towards this but do not manage, through ignorance, lack of motivation, being blocked, whatever (yes, even stupidity) to follow through completely.

Realized I needed to add more. Just because someone is evil, does evil things for their own sake, does not mean they cannot be stupid or smart. Even if someone has no values, they can still be smart or stupid.

[Solly Mack]

8. MLK Jr said

"...we must remember that everything Hitler did was legal" (I know I say this a lot but dammit, it IS very important)

torture comes after removing the legal protections
that's why Bush played words games and created confusion of the status of the "detainees"....he played hard and fast with the legal protections

Now he's going for the gold...making the illegal legal.

[uppityperson]

10. And he gets to decide what is legal.

[Solly Mack]

11. Yep

[mmonk]

15. Yes, this is saying he has a dictatorial right

to determine what is or isn't applicable.