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This is worse than September 11th.

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StellaBlue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 09:51 AM
Original message
This is worse than September 11th.
Yes, that is what I said.

On September 11th, the violence that our government has wrought the world over for the past half century (and before, in fits and starts), came back to visit its hell upon innocent Americans. This was not remarkable because of the nature of the attack, or the method, or the participants, but because of the victims. Americans, for the first time, knew the confusion and horror that has long been experienced by other innocent people in many countries when American bombs fell.

I don't need to list these countries. I also don't need to list the regimes who have previously used torture. Who we will now unabashedly be compared to in newspapers all around the globe. And rightfully so. The comparison is long overdue.

I thought that the selection of George W. Bush would be challenged, that Americans wouldn't stand for a blatantly stolen election. I thought that September 11th would awaken my fellow Americans, who, after an event of such shock and awe, would surely demand to know why we were so hated. I thought the Patriot Act, surely, would inspire mass protests, civil disobedience, and the refusal of the American people to countenance any more treason from their self-appointed, self-anointed "leaders."




I woke up this morning ill. I called in sick to work. I pattered into my dining room and sat down to check my email, and turned the TV on. I immediately remembered how enraged and appalled I'd felt last night, thinking about the implications of this evil act by our "elected representatives." I felt a deep, intractable sense of darkness. Heaviness. Dread. I have always been a cynic and a skeptic, but I am beginning to lose all hope in humanity. I called my mother, a legal secretary with a high school diploma who has always had to live paycheck to paycheck and who has never been particularly politically active or engaged. She was already at work, and said she was "just so depressed, just so depressed, I don't know what to think."

I looked over at the television. Regis and Kelly were there, on their stools like marionettes, heads bobbing, meaningless sounds coming out of their mouths. As if nothing has changed.

The stolen election(s) changed nothing.

September 11th changed nothing.

The passage of the treasonous and truly Orwellian Patriot Act changed nothing.

And now the suspension of habeas corpus, and the official approval of torture - torture - has changed nothing.

All they need now is a new Sedition Act, which, if the Republicans retain Congress in November, is not unlikely. If you think that a far-fetched assertion, who would've thought we would sanction torture?




But what shall we do? What can we do? We are all precariously hanging on to our homes and jobs as it is, lives tied to one corporate treadmill or another, our ambitions sagging under the weight of insurmountable debt, lack of health insurance, and all the other ususal, gold-plated nooses of the modern American consumerist gulag through which we condemn ourselves to wage slavery and political irrelevance.




I don't know what to think; or do. I do know that I will not submit; that I will not consent to aid their crimes. I will not be drafted. I will not be conscripted into any type of service whatsoever. I will not shut up. I will not be intimidated. Even if that means they will torture me.

I will not become one of them.



And, though they would no doubt be considered anti-American by those of the current ascendant anti-intellectual, theocratic, greedy, backward-looking, hateful ideology, the only other words that come to mind are these:


When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. — Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.

He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.

He has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till his Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.

He has refused to pass other Laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of Representation in the Legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only.

He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their Public Records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures.

He has dissolved Representative Houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly firmness his invasions on the rights of the people.

He has refused for a long time, after such dissolutions, to cause others to be elected, whereby the Legislative Powers, incapable of Annihilation, have returned to the People at large for their exercise; the State remaining in the mean time exposed to all the dangers of invasion from without, and convulsions within.

He has endeavoured to prevent the population of these States; for that purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migrations hither, and raising the conditions of new Appropriations of Lands.

He has obstructed the Administration of Justice by refusing his Assent to Laws for establishing Judiciary Powers.

He has made Judges dependent on his Will alone for the tenure of their offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries.

He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harass our people and eat out their substance.

He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies without the Consent of our legislatures.

He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil Power.

He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution, and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation:

For quartering large bodies of armed troops among us:

For protecting them, by a mock Trial from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:

For cutting off our Trade with all parts of the world:

For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:

For depriving us in many cases, of the benefit of Trial by Jury:

For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offences:

For abolishing the free System of English Laws in a neighbouring Province, establishing therein an Arbitrary government, and enlarging its Boundaries so as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for introducing the same absolute rule into these Colonies

For taking away our Charters, abolishing our most valuable Laws and altering fundamentally the Forms of our Governments:

For suspending our own Legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever.

He has abdicated Government here, by declaring us out of his Protection and waging War against us.

He has plundered our seas, ravaged our coasts, burnt our towns, and destroyed the lives of our people.

He is at this time transporting large Armies of foreign Mercenaries to compleat the works of death, desolation, and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty & Perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized nation.

He has constrained our fellow Citizens taken Captive on the high Seas to bear Arms against their Country, to become the executioners of their friends and Brethren, or to fall themselves by their Hands.

He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions.

In every stage of these Oppressions We have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. A Prince, whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people.

Nor have We been wanting in attentions to our British brethren. We have warned them from time to time of attempts by their legislature to extend an unwarrantable jurisdiction over us. We have reminded them of the circumstances of our emigration and settlement here. We have appealed to their native justice and magnanimity, and we have conjured them by the ties of our common kindred. to disavow these usurpations, which would inevitably interrupt our connections and correspondence. They too have been deaf to the voice of justice and of consanguinity. We must, therefore, acquiesce in the necessity, which denounces our Separation, and hold them, as we hold the rest of mankind, Enemies in War, in Peace Friends.

We, therefore, the Representatives of the United States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these United Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States, that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do. — And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.


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rug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 09:52 AM
Response to Original message
1. This is the purpose of September 11th.
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StellaBlue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 10:03 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. indeed
nt
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gumby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 10:07 AM
Response to Reply #1
5. It DOES seem like a straight line
from the stolen 2000 election to the enabling act that will be passed by the senate today.
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LibertyorDeath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #1
16. Precisley.... I wish more could see it
"This is the purpose of September 11th"
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gasperc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 09:53 AM
Response to Original message
2. this is a sedition act
if they can pluck us off the street, and we can't challenge our detention through a writ of habeus corpus then how can we defend ourselves that we are or are not an alien.

in addition, this horror codifies torture
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StellaBlue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 10:07 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. ish
we still, surprisingly, have free speech

or else everyone on DU would've been rounded up in the middle of the night already

I'm just sayin'

But it's not a big leap from "supporting terrorism through supporting organizations that materially support terrorists" (vague much?!) to "supporting terrorism through speaking against the US government/military" - plus IT'S HAPPENED BEFORE!

People seriously need to read some Howard Zinn.
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OrangeCountyDemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 10:13 AM
Response to Reply #4
7. Until When???
Until they take that constitutional right away from us. They've already limited it. Ask Natalie Maines. Ask Bruce Springsteen. Ask ANYBODY who has had their integrity and reputation degraded for speaking out.

Fuck, add EVERY SINGLE MEMBER OF DU!!! They diminish and ridicule us everyday. And we come back for the beating each time. Too bad we don't have enough leaders speaking the TRUTH. Boxer, Feingold, et al can't do it themselves, and we're probably fucking doomed.
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StellaBlue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 10:22 AM
Response to Reply #7
12. yes but that's always been the American Way
to belittle and attempt to silence progressives and people who don't tow the party line of god, guns, and the almighty dollar

but as far as I am aware, none of these people has actually been arrested and throw in jail and tortured for speaking out - yet
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Nostradammit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 11:39 PM
Response to Reply #7
39. Your predictable hysterical pessimism is stale
and bordering on maudlin.

Rather than expressing exasperation, you are attempting to discourage, and I find that contemptible.



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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 07:58 AM
Response to Reply #7
53. If they can detain for No reason, they can detain FOR SPEECH reasons
therefore, there is no freedom of speech.
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mongo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #4
15. Free Speech? It's already happening....
In March, six members of Stop Huntingdon Animal Cruelty, or SHAC, including the three sentenced on Tuesday, were found guilty of violating the Animal Enterprise Protection Act, a federal law amended in 2002 to equate its offenses with terrorism.

It marked the first trial and conviction under that law, federal officials said.

The three had also been found guilty of conspiracy and interstate stalking against employees of Huntingdon's New Jersey operations for urging sympathizers to harass Huntingdon employees, vandalize their cars and publish their names and personal data on the Internet.

Defense attorneys argued that the defendants were exercising their free-speech rights, and SHAC said it was the victim of a government crackdown on dissent.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060912/us_nm/security_animals_dc

In other words -- they got 4 to 6 years for spouting off at the mouth on the internet.
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indepat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 09:35 AM
Response to Reply #4
56. Those who want a refresher on what our government has wrought
on others since WWII might wish to read Professor John Quigley's "The Ruses for War," Prometheus Books (Buffalo, NY 1992).
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #2
70. Which has already been found unconstitutional n/t
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Extend a Hand Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 10:12 AM
Response to Original message
6. I'm just so sad
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StellaBlue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 10:13 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. I am sick/paralyzed/sad/enraged
I really want to just go take to the street, right now, and start screaming and wailing like those Iraqi women on TV whose children we've murdered.

I live about four blocks from the Texas Capitol. It's tempting.
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roody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 08:04 PM
Response to Reply #8
81. SO GET OUT THERE WITH A BIG SIGN!!!
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gasperc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 10:30 AM
Response to Reply #6
13. get angry and call your senator again
I called mine twice
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 10:19 AM
Response to Original message
9. Last night, I was depressed; Today I'm fighting fucking angry!
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kiteinthewind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 08:36 AM
Response to Reply #9
55. I feel the same way. I float back and forth between anger,
nausea, depression, and then back to anger. But we have to keep fighting, and we have to keep picking each other up, because that is exactly what these fucking criminals want us to do=give up, roll over, sit down. I have this conversation with my friend frequently, and we just have to keep fighting. Let's hold each other up for the fight!
:grouphug:
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Gregorian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 10:20 AM
Response to Original message
10. You absolutely spoke for me.
Edited on Thu Sep-28-06 10:26 AM by Gregorian
In every word. Your common sense is solid.

Bin Laden eerily predicted that we would destroy ourselves over his actions. Whether or not he is part of this, it almost doesn't matter. Here we are self-destructing.

I just got off the phone with the sheriff. With miles of forest behind my house, the locals have to shoot their guns right in my back yard. I almost fell off my chair last night because I had my window open. You probably wonder what I'm talking about. It's an American trait to have power and use power, but more, in a reckless way. Don't think. Don't care. Just do it. I only mention it because it's everywhere I look. And I'm distraught that I (and a few others) seem to be the only one who sees it. But I must admit, we asked for this.

That's my diatribe. I apologize if this hijacks your intentions in any way.

We appear to be well on our way to lowering our standards. We are becoming what we fought.



Edit- Damn. That Declaration of Independence ending really is sinking in as I mull this over. How utterly appropriate. How it shows the complete hypocrisy of the times.
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wiggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 10:21 AM
Response to Original message
11. What they have done since 01 is worse than 9/11
Good point. And it is not limited to victims of torture, but also includes victims of environmental degradation, victims of lack of resources around the world, victims of our military aggression around the world.

This man is the death and brutality president, let out of his cage on 9/11.
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tex-wyo-dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 10:30 AM
Response to Original message
14. Amazing how in a few short years...
the U.S. has gone from being one of the most admired countries in the world to one of the most hated.

This torture bill will be one of the last nails in the coffin.
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-30-06 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #14
106. Possibly, but the question I have is, in who's coffin will that nail go?
Even here in DU there is a considerable contingent of those who would have us submit to their authority, as if their tyranny is somehow less evil.

We speak of the "American Dream" in terms of "owning" a house and having the ability to buy incalculable amounts of crap.
(BTW, in case you haven't supplemented to your corporate indoctrination, the American Dream is/was one of individual Liberty and governance by consent of the governed)

We have ardent supporters of the foul corporatism that pervades every aspect of our lives.

We are not able to sustain such pathetic "protests" as not spending money for one lousy day because it is a tiny inconvenience.

So I ask, just which coffin has been sealed?
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LibertyorDeath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 01:18 PM
Response to Original message
17. Excellent post
You sound like a realist to me.

The really depressing part is these Fascist thugs are just getting started.

The foundation is laid for a Fascist America.

I don't see anything standing in their way.

Rec!
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StellaBlue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 07:28 PM
Response to Original message
18. shameless
evening self-kick
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 07:31 PM
Response to Original message
19. the after math has been worse
as bad as it was on that day and it was horrible...every day after it has been worse and more deadly for more people



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file83 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 08:37 PM
Response to Original message
20. The question is, are we ready to die for declaring our freedom from this
government?

If so, then we must all organize.

But until we start to hear and or know of people being plucked off the streets and disappearing for ever...people we personally know, friends, family...until then, many will not see the real threat that is looming over the horizon.

Until then...we will have to wait...
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Straight Shooter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 09:20 PM
Response to Original message
21. United we stand, divided we fall. bush has divided us.
We have now fallen into the abyss.
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 09:24 PM
Response to Original message
22. No Way In Hell I'm Putting My Support Behind That Concept.
Edited on Thu Sep-28-06 09:25 PM by OPERATIONMINDCRIME
I didn't even bother reading the mile long post. I refused to look past the opening line.

There are many points we can get across. There are many ways to do so. We don't have to tread on the remains of the lives lost and their surviving family members in order to do so.

I find the title of this thread to be one of if not the worst I've ever read. I simply refuse to support its legitimacy or be associated with it by proxy if I hadn't declared otherwise. I want to go on record as saying I Do Not support this declaration whatsoever.

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mdmc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 09:31 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. time alone, time will tell
I think this terror bill plays into the terrorists hands. We should take the high road.

I think the neo-con plan for Iraq is more tragic then 9-11, but that is because so many more people have died.
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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 09:40 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. I agree.
The OP includes some things that need to be said, but the subject line is hysterically extreme.
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wagthedogwar Donating Member (173 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 10:02 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. you can start here
Get ready for October 5th

http://www.worldcantwait.net/

On October 5, people everywhere will walk out of school, take off work, and come to the downtowns & townsquares and set out from there, going through the streets and calling on everyone to join in.

You can organize a local event and post it here:
http://worldcantwait.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2418&_event=14

Go to your local library if you don't know where to start. They will help you organize local unions, schools, churches to get the ball rolling!
Do it!
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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 01:21 AM
Response to Reply #25
45. No thanks, that site is a scam, hello. nt
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wagthedogwar Donating Member (173 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 05:29 AM
Response to Reply #45
49. yeah right, tell it to Gore Vidal
Gore Vidal interviewed by Thom Hartman on Air America (Randi Rhodes show) about the movement to drive out the Bush regime, worldcantwait.net

listen yourself

http://worldcantwait.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2869&Itemid=223

Supporters of worldcantwait
Edward Asner
Fr. Luis Barrios
Ed Begley Jr.
Harry Belafonte
St. Clair Bourne
Ward Churchill
Margaret Cho
CHOICE USA
John Conyers
Daniel Ellsberg
Rabbi Michael Feinberg
Jane Fonda
Thom Hartmann
John Heard
Rev. Jesse L. Jackson
Bianca Jagger
Rickie Lee Jones
Colonel Janis Karpinski (ret) <1>.
Casey Kasem
Jessica Lange
Lewis H. Lapham
Mike Malloy
Ray McGovern
Cynthia McKinney
Ralph Nader
US Rep. Major Owens
Sean Penn
Harold Pinter
Sr. Helen Prejean (who has, however, dissociated herself from WCW's advocacy of legal abortion).
Dennis Rivera (President, Local 1199 SEIU)
Mark Ruffalo
Bobby Rush
Susan Sarandon
Rev. Al Sharpton
Cindy Sheehan, Gold Star Families for Peace
Martin Sheen
Gloria Steinem
Sunsara Taylor
Studs Terkel
Gore Vidal
Kurt Vonnegut
Maxine Waters
Howard Zinn
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grasswire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-01-06 03:01 AM
Response to Reply #49
116. oddly enough..
...more than a few of the people who have signed in agreement with the purpose of the march tried to stop people from voting for Democrats in past elections, too.

Ol' "not a dimes worth" Nader is on WCW's list, too.

The result? We saw it this past week, as bill after bill was ramrodded down our throats for lack of enough votes.

Our salvation lies in a Democratic majority in Congress. Don't let anyone urge voters to repudiate Democrats at the polls. Solidarity must prevail.
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StellaBlue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 11:32 PM
Response to Reply #24
35. it's not worse on a visceral, emotional level
But how many people have been killed in our names since and ostensibly because of 9/11? More than 3,000. I guess their lives just aren't worth as much as Americans'.

:shrug:
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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 01:24 AM
Response to Reply #35
46. But that's not what you meant by "this", is it? nt
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StellaBlue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 07:13 AM
Response to Reply #46
52. Yes it is
"This" makes it all legal and condoned and in the open. And very few Americans even give a shit. We are a nation of idiots.
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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-01-06 01:08 AM
Response to Reply #52
110. Then your premise is pathetic. nt
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Bluerthanblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 11:01 PM
Response to Reply #22
28. the refusal to LISTEN especially to that
which you 'ASSUME' you couldn't possibly find any common ground on- is in large part why this country has become so fucked up-

DIPLOMACY?

NEGOTIATION?

LIVING IN CONCERT WITH THE WORLD?

The original poster spoke some very painful, very distressing truths.
You may not agree, but if you aren't willing to LISTEN, to take in the WHOLE of the post, without a knee-jerk response of "I didn't even bother reading the mile long post-.... I want to go on record as saying I Do Not support this declaration whatsoever"- your voice rings empty, and ignorant.

The declaration cited was the one this nation was founded on.

Sad that you can't support the same view the founding fathers held, and felt compelled to fight and die to create.

YOU sad friend, tread on the lives of my ancestors- the sweat and blood of over 200 years of men and women who gave selflessly to establish and maintain the concept of the true "AMERICA".

Your statement simply reinforces the hopelessness that remains of this mock democracy.

fie on all of this.
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StellaBlue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 11:30 PM
Response to Reply #28
34. Yeah, funny, isn't it?
Edited on Thu Sep-28-06 11:37 PM by StellaBlue
"I do not support this declaration."

It would be funny if it weren't so horrible a statement. And that was the reason the post was "mile-long".

This sanctimonious, American exceptionalist attitude that puts the deaths of those 3,000 brutally murdered Americans ABOVE the deaths caused by our own government is the central problem.

Sept. 11 was only deeply shocking to Americans. We had never before experienced terrorism. Like George W. Bush, we had been shielded from world opinion, from the often justifiable hate felt toward us by people elsewhere in the world.

I do not take back any part of my OP. Especially that last, "mile-long" part.

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Moochy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 11:32 PM
Response to Reply #34
36. Nationalism is a poison
And the uberpatriot above has that "American Exceptionalism" pretty bad.

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TheWatcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #34
62. The post you are responding to is IGNORED for me but I know who it is
Take everything you read from them with a grain of salt.

If it's who I think it is, just ignore it. The proper name should not be "Operation" but "Operative", because they have pretty much proven that since they've been posting.

And Geoff Tate, the person who wrote the album that Screen Name bears, wouldn't waste his valuable time giving him/her the time of day.

You shouldn't either.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 11:27 PM
Response to Reply #22
31. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Moochy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 11:28 PM
Response to Reply #22
32. I didn't even bother reading
Funny I had the same reaction to your post...
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StellaBlue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 11:36 PM
Response to Reply #22
38. AND the people who died on Sept 11th are not lessened by pointing out
that OTHER people have died. I really don't get this attitude.

I am not treading on the remains of lives lost. This administration is. THEY are the ones trivializing 9/11. Get a clue.

Do you think those people who died that day would be proud of what happened TODAY in this country?
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scarletwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 11:59 PM
Response to Reply #22
40. Yeah. Sticking your fingers in your ears and screaming LA LA LA LA LA
Edited on Fri Sep-29-06 12:11 AM by scarletwoman
is certainly a useful way to respond to the OP.

For some of us, the death of our Constitutional Republic is pretty damn traumatic.

Mass murder of human beings is always horrific. It's shocking and awful no matter to whom it happens -- whether you are Guatemalan, Vietnamese, European Jew, Philippino, American Indian, Cambodian, Iraqi, Lebanese, Sudanese, Nicaraguan, Tibetan, Rwandan, El Slavadoran, Albanian or early 21st century U.S. office workers.

Mass murder is always a traumatic event for those to whom it hits close to home. Far too many people in countries all over the world have had to cope with the trauma of mass murder of their fellow countrymen throughout history.

The only thing exceptional about the mass murder of early 21st century office workers in the U.S. is that it was the first time our "own" people were the victims, rather than some other faceless masses in some other place and time.

Other than that, it's just one more bloody chapter in the long history of humans slaughtering other humans. I've never understood why I should feel any more outraged about "9/11" than I do about, say, the massacres in East Timor (for which our government supplied the armaments), or the carpet bombing of Vietnam. I whole-heartedly condemn the mass murder of human beings, whether it's at the hands of nation-states or individual actors.

That being said, it's not every day that a supposedly "civilized" Western nation -- Of Laws, Not Men -- has not only shredded out its own Constitution, but the entire tradition of laws and justice going back almost 8 centuries to the Magna Carta.

And I find it the height (or nadir?) of irony that you use the very word "declaration" --

I want to go on record as saying I Do Not support this declaration whatsoever.

-- when the main body of the OP consists of a verbatim posting of The Declaration of Independence.

So, shall we mark you down as a Loyalist to King George?

sw



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StellaBlue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 12:03 AM
Response to Reply #40
41. thank you
people, of either political persuasion, using 9/11 as a mechanism to shut others up is growing tiresome
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Wonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 12:17 AM
Response to Reply #40
42. Excellent post, ma'am, imho. I wonder if OMC will reply?
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scarletwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 12:53 AM
Response to Reply #42
44. Thanks. And I rather doubt that OMC will reply.
It doesn't matter -- at least my response to his post is out there for others to read.

Thank you again,
sw
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Moochy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #44
61. He Can't be bothered
Real debate just slows a person down, dont you know?
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #44
68. Oh The Melodrama And Baiting. My God ROFLMAO!
I'll respond quite simply. The declaration I was referring to was the one stating that this is worse than 9-11. I found that declaration to be a melodramatic disgrace. I'm certain quite a few others here would find it quite distasteful as well. There are many ways to get our valid and important points across without having to invoke 9-11 or trivialize it.

Carry on now with your baiting.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #68
71. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
onenote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 04:19 PM
Response to Reply #68
72. you're right
but you won't find many who will say so
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scarletwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 10:01 PM
Response to Reply #68
83. And I happen to believe that the destruction of our Contstitution IS worse
Edited on Fri Sep-29-06 10:08 PM by scarletwoman
than 9/11, and I stated my reasons for thinking thus.

You seem to think that the bloody flag of the 9/11 attack should be waved about like some sacred talisman of unique awfulness. While I certainly found 9/11 awful, I find its awfulness in no way unique.

By what possible logic should the U.S.A. be spared that which it has so blithely inflicted on other peoples around the world?

The ideals expressed in our Declaration of Independence and our Constitution have now been thoroughly gainsaid. This is of far greater import and has far more serious and far-reaching implications than the loss of 3000 lives on one particular day.

sw
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Demit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-30-06 05:57 AM
Response to Reply #68
98. Putting something into perspective is not necessarily trivializing it.
Unfortunately, the pages of history are strewn with incidents of wholesale slaughter. We are not the first to experience it. We are, however, the first country established according to a set of principles and high ideals. When historians note the tragedy of 9/11, it won't be in terms of how horrific it was in scale, I suspect. What they will find much more remarkable is how a scant five years later it led to the country so readily and willingly throwing away the very principles and ideals on which it was founded. Somewhere in their analyses they will marvel how an incident of being attacked made the country not stronger, but weaker, because it led the country to repudiate its very reason for being.

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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 02:45 AM
Response to Reply #22
47. Coming from you, that's hardly a surprise.
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TheWatcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #47
63. No it isn't.
What's a surprise for me is that there are people that still don't have him on IGNORE.
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fudge stripe cookays Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 02:53 PM
Response to Reply #63
65. I just like seeing if he can top....
the defense of Wal-Mart, and his love of SUVs...you know....the typical stuff.

And he always does. It's kind of like watching a trainwreck.
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 04:30 PM
Response to Reply #65
75. Please Prove That I've Ever Defended Walmart Or Declared A Love
for SUV's. You are lying you know. You are also attacking without provocation. You also have not responded to the argument I laid forth itself. I hope you are capable of more than just making things up and forging unwarranted personal attack. Let's see if you can back up your ridiculous assertions above, shall we?
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fudge stripe cookays Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 07:22 PM
Response to Reply #75
77. And I've told you before...
that I'm not going to sit here and go through all your offensive old posts to pull out the jewels. Anyone here familiar with your oeuvre can do that for themselves.

My time is a bit more important than you give me credit for.

And judging by others' reactions to your posts, I'm not the only one who has a visceral reaction to your posts.
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 07:51 PM
Response to Reply #77
79. You Won't Because You Can't. Because I Have Never Said Such Things.
Maybe next time you shouldn't declare such inaccurate statements.

And if your time was important, you wouldn't spend it attacking me with inaccurate Walmart and SUV sentiments that were unprovoked and completely outside any context of my posts in this thread itself.
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #63
67. I think
he's one of the less obnoxious ones.

And a few, i can deal with. My ignore list is quite long.
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Moochy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #63
69. Strictly for Entertainment Purposes
That's Why I Don't Add Him To Ignored.
Who Amongst Us Does Not Like Humourous Mis-Capitalization?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 04:39 PM
Response to Reply #63
76. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
countryjake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-30-06 04:10 AM
Response to Reply #22
90. What Are You Talking About?
I Mean, Did You Bother To Even Read The

context before you posted something so wrongly assumptive? I'll tell ya what, I'll reserve the rest of my reply until after you go back and actually read the post in which you decided to jump in and respond to. Would be fairer that way.


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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-30-06 10:35 AM
Response to Reply #90
104. It Just Occurred To Me...
Du really needs a jumping on the gravy train smiley. :rofl:

"I Mean, Did You Bother To Even Read The context before you posted something so wrongly assumptive? "

If you would've bothered to read my additional replies, you would see this has been answered. The overall conclusion of the context was that this was worse than 9-11. That's simply absurd. Though the body of the OP was ok in its sentiment, since it is only written to support the conclusion of it being worse than 9-11, I cannot and will not support or condone it. It matters not if it had good points or not, as long as it is directly related to the conclusion.

"I'll tell ya what, I'll reserve the rest of my reply until after you go back and actually read the post in which you decided to jump in and respond to. Would be fairer that way."

If you had been paying attention at all you'd see that I've not only already read it but also maintained my point of view afterwards. And why are you inferring that there is something wrong with jumping in and responding to a thread? I mean, this is a message board and that's kinda, generally maybe, possibly, usually, typically, regularly the way things work on them correct? Are only replies that offer no critical thinking or independent thought acceptable to you?

Anyway, (insert jumping on gravy train icon here)
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countryjake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-30-06 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #104
107. Turnabout, actually...
Just repeating your own response once directed at Cleita.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=571142&mesg_id=583915

Interesting, your reaction to the same treatment. Critical thinking, indeed!
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-30-06 06:05 PM
Response to Reply #107
109. Apples To Oranges.
When I had used it the point was accurate in its concept, whereas when you used it now it simply wasn't. During the discussion of which you pulled the quote, the poster had attacked me with a premise and assumption that had nothing to do with what I had been stating. Because the attack was inaccurate and misguided, possibly due to them not having read the original context to begin with, my statement had merit.

In the case here, your use of it was not accurate due to the reasons I stated earlier. Not only had I read the post, but responded with thorough reasoning behind my opinion. Therefore, using that same declaration as I had in the old thread was not appropriate here, it was just a poor attempt to make failed point.

Furthermore, in this case my comments were directly related to context. As explained, whatever came after the title was merely justification and reasoning to conclude the title to be accurate. Since the title was a disgrace in my opinion, calling it such, regardless of how much of the thread itself I read, was still well within context.

I know you were trying to be witty and get me in a gotcha by thinking yourself cunning, but it simply was an inappropriate and failed usage of someone's words against them. Sorry.
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HarukaTheTrophyWife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-30-06 04:44 AM
Response to Reply #22
92. Your opinion may be unpopular on this, but I agree 100%
This statement does trample on the lives lost on 9-11. I wonder how many of the posters who agree heartily with the OP are from the NYC area or personally know people who lost their lives that day. From the sound of their posts, not many.

:patriot:

People can call me a FReeper. It's been done before here, but I think those that do should sit back and think about those that died on 9-11, before they do so.
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yellerpup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 10:36 PM
Response to Original message
26. Definitely feeling this with you.
K&R :kick: :kick: :kick:
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Imagevision Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 10:43 PM
Response to Original message
27. Israel's Moussaud (CIA) on 9-11 - Now Americans will know what we feel...
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Bluerthanblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 11:21 PM
Response to Original message
29. such eloquence presenting the painful truth- k&r
too overwhelming for me-
far too overwhelming.
we have lost our way
we
the people
.
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 11:25 PM
Response to Original message
30. Death of a nation.
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Moochy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 11:29 PM
Response to Original message
33. Great post!
I'd rate it Toothsome! K&R

a truly sad day.
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StellaBlue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 11:34 PM
Response to Original message
37. & MORE Americans will die as a result of what happened today than on 9/11
Just not all at once, and so spectacularly. No one will notice when the first people start disappearing and being rounded up in the middle of the night. No one will see it on TV. There will be no miniseries.
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Beam Me Up Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 12:36 AM
Response to Original message
43. No it is not. It is just a continuation of it.
9/11 was an inside job. Setting the stage for the overthrow of the Constitution. They just took another step today.

Meanwhile, Democrats go along to get along.

Makes me want to wretch.
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Senator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 04:48 AM
Response to Original message
48. Sadly true, as was "mushroom clouds" far worse...
...even in the limited category of "terrorist acts."

And other aspects of the neofascist "cure" are worse than the disease.

It all flows directly from the Stolen Election of 2000.

That's when the contract known as the US Constitution was first put into breach. When the known will of the (former) American People was take out of the loop. When the course set was set on a path of decline.

Unless we confront and remedy that original sin, we have little hope of Redeeming Our National Soul.

Impeachment remains our ONLY moral, patriotic option.

--
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mom cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 07:10 AM
Response to Original message
50. Thank you so much for your post. I have filed it under "LIBERTY"
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atommom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 07:13 AM
Response to Original message
51. K & R &
:banghead:
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alarimer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 08:10 AM
Response to Original message
54. I think Sept. 11 enabled them to do these things
without it, Bush would have been a one-termer and the Congress would not have had the justification to pass the Patriot Act (which is what the right had wanted for a long time). It served their purposes very well; even my boss (normally a liberal Dem- from a long line of liberal Texas Dems) pretty much supported Bush. That didn't last long, as it didn't for most liberals. But for the right, 9/11 became the excuse PNAC needed to start an illegal war.

Conservatives are the ones who hate us for our freedoms. They would be Vichy France if this were WWII- the enablers, the collaborator, while WE would be the Resistance.
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Snivi Yllom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 10:00 AM
Response to Original message
57. kick
.
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deaniac21 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 10:14 AM
Response to Original message
58. WOW, I wish I had as much free time as you do! What a post!!
:toast:
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StellaBlue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 10:09 PM
Response to Reply #58
84. uh...
that took me like five minutes.
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Skinner ADMIN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 10:56 AM
Response to Original message
59. Thread titles like this reinforce the idea that liberals are out of touch.
Edited on Fri Sep-29-06 11:08 AM by Skinner
I am aware that many people on this website don't care what people think about us.

I have a different view. I don't think we should be helping our political opponents make the case that liberals are a bunch of cultural aliens who hate America more than we hate terrorists. (Please do not respond by telling me that I think liberals hate America more than we hate terrorists, and likewise please do not tell me that I am accusing the OP of saying such things. You and I both know that I have said neither.)

The attention-getting headline of this thread will do nothing to make people listen to what you are saying. You might as well have written "blah blah blah blah" over and over again in the message area of your post, because many people won't get past the thread title.
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Bluerthanblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #59
60. no offense, but if folks aren't willing to
dig a little deeper than a "Title", they deserve to feed on their own shallow thoughts.
Some of the best titles in the world are full of words that have little value-

Some of the most profound writings have titles that are easily overlooked, or mis-construed.
I understand your point, but books that are chosen by their cover are often a waste of words and effort.

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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 02:12 PM
Response to Reply #59
64. Thank you!
:thumbsup:
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onenote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 04:20 PM
Response to Reply #59
73. Thanks for making that clear
Edited on Fri Sep-29-06 04:26 PM by onenote
We are still here and able to fight back against what happened yesterday. The same can't be said for those who died on September 11. Equating the two, let alone describing yesterday as worse, is hyperbole at its worst.
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StellaBlue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 10:14 PM
Response to Reply #73
86. OH STOP WITH THE 9/11 WORSHIP ALREADY
I really want to move back to the UK sometimes. Even liberal, thinking Americans are easily wound up by all the 9/11 drum-beating.

WE - OUR GOVERNMENT - has killed FAR more than 3,000 innocent people. Probably in the last MONTH, let alone since 9/11 - or since 1945. Cry for them for a change.

I am a citizen of the world, not a nationalist. The deaths on Sept. 11 are no more sacred to me than any other deaths, anywhere, any time, any people. That's the WHOLE FUCKING PROBLEM.

I maintain that what happened yesterday was worse for the history of the world.

Yesterday Bush and his cronies managed to do what Osama and his Al Qaeda could not - take away our freedom.

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onenote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-30-06 06:26 AM
Response to Reply #86
99. you are not me
Don't dare tell me what to feel about 9-11. You know nothing of the losses I personally suffered that day.
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Generator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 08:24 PM
Response to Reply #59
82. The title might be poor
But the sentiment is simple, and it doesn't mean we don't care about those that died on 9/11. I am a little obsessed with it myself, since I once worked in the towers. I don't buy the little Eichmann carp-innocence is real thing. I think innocence is everything we have lost.

If fear and grief and revenge make you act against your basic humanity, then it is worse than the horror that happened to you. If watching your child die was the worst day of your life, surely, knowing you are allowing an innocent child die or be tortured today is even worse. Because you know better. And you are no better, and you have to live with that. Most people that have a loved one die try to do something to help others from ever being in the same state. If you remember, the relatives of the 9/11 victims did not ask for death for Moussaoui. They were better than many of our represent ives. I'm certain they weren't asking for him to be tortured for the rest of his life on George Bush's say so.

You can't compare anything to 9/11. (maybe "We are becoming the thing we hate" says it better) But we all know it's the excuse for everything that has followed. And as one who for a time tried to ignore and rationalize away Guantanamo Bay- let's say even some liberals aren't that concerned with what happens to the terrorist that we know plot our death.

But. What if one is innocent? What if they are someone's child? After reading about a teenager that has been tortured for five years in Guantanamo-I can never be in denial again. There are innocent people in Guantanamo bay right now, and that is only worse than September 11th because I can do something to stop them from being hurt.

I cannot do anything about what happened on September 11th. If we become like them, and essentially say, okay-necessary collateral damage-innocent or not-we don't care-then we are really not that much better.

And knowing I am in any way like those scumbags that killed all those innocents that didn't deserve to die on 9/11 is not something I want to live with.
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StellaBlue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 10:09 PM
Response to Reply #59
85. I didn't mean it as hyperbole.
Edited on Fri Sep-29-06 10:10 PM by StellaBlue
I think it is worse.

And, as we have seen, appeasing the Murkins ain't getting us nowhere. You're right. I no longer care what they think. I doubt they are reading this thread, anyway. My OP used too many multi-syllabic words.
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HarukaTheTrophyWife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-30-06 05:53 AM
Response to Reply #85
96. I read your OP, multi-syllabic words and all. It's hyperbole. It's also
disrepectful to those who died on 9-11 and like Skinner said, providing fodder for the right-wing to use against us.

Overall, your post does a disservice to the cause, because of your intro, even though I agree with you about the consitution being shredded. Sorry, but you won't change my mind on that.
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sufrommich Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 10:59 PM
Response to Reply #59
87. Then please do something about it.
Threads like this and the countless other over the top, hand wringing, melodramatic threads lately have become the joke of the internet.If I was the type that believed in conspiracies I would think there is a direct correlation between the goofiness on show here lately and the upcoming elections.
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StellaBlue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 11:02 PM
Response to Reply #87
88. have you been paying attention?
:eyes:

Do you comprehend what happened yesterday?

I for one am tired of all the melodrama about 9/11. It was HORRIBLE. But not unique. We are not unique. America was never so exceptional as Americans believed, and now - now it is below despicable.
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HarukaTheTrophyWife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-30-06 05:55 AM
Response to Reply #88
97. Yes, very much so.
Your post is still divisive and does nothing to win people over to our side.
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HarukaTheTrophyWife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-30-06 05:44 AM
Response to Reply #59
95. THANK YOU, SKINNER!
:applause:
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nolabels Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 03:02 PM
Response to Original message
66. Me thinks there should be a smile on your face
The desperation acts of our government show the fear they have of the people and what they think rather that what is actually going to happen. The secret about writing laws is none should ever be made or written that won't be supported by the people living under them.

I am enjoying the stupidity of it all :-)
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screembloodymurder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 04:27 PM
Response to Original message
74. Recommended.
WOW!
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Mike03 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 07:27 PM
Response to Original message
78. Maybe the Best Post I've ever Seen
I felt exactly these feelings, although was unable to express them so eloquently. Something has been broken that can never be unbroken. At least that is how it feels to me today.
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Jcrowley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 08:00 PM
Response to Original message
80. Let's remember
The problem is not that 9-11 happened, or that it was so awful.

The problem is that US society had already become such a tottering edifice, so corrupt, morally feeble & confused, that one such incident was quite capable of causing the entire socio-political fabric to disintegrate.

Of course it was a very unpleasant incident, but other countries suffer those kinds of tragedies, and far worse, all the time (caused, more often than not, by us).

Let's remember that GW Bush had already stolen the presidency with the whole world watching, 10 months before this thing came to pass -- and there was scarcely so much as a flicker of outrage, protest or resistance against that crime.

Now that this bill sanctioning torture, and let's make no mistake about it that's what this does among other things, has become an open and stated policy of the US let's bear witness to the outrage of the US citizenry.
I'm not holding my breath.
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StellaBlue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 11:04 PM
Response to Original message
89. I am not posting anything else in this thread.
I stand by all my statements.

When you get carted off to the internment camp, don't come crying to me.
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onenote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-30-06 06:29 AM
Response to Reply #89
101. fine. and when we, the living, successfully defeat the repubs
maybe you can take a minute to think about the dead
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HarukaTheTrophyWife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-30-06 04:32 AM
Response to Original message
91. Bullshit. There I said it. Complete fucking bullshit.
I know people who died on 9-11. One who worked in the towers (and survived the 1st WTC bombing) and a cop who gave his life saving others.

Congress fucked up that's for damn sure, but they didn't kill people I personally know and care about yesterday. Now I don't know where you come from, but I'm from Jersey. Dirty Jerz. And I don't think you'll find many people from Jersey or NYC that agree with you.

Thank God.
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Demit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-30-06 05:26 AM
Response to Reply #91
93. So because you are from Jersey it's fine that Congress limits our rights?
As long as they don't kill anybody you know? So we can extrapolate from that that it's fine if people die from these new policies because you don't know them?

I find it repulsive that you feel you own the tragedy on 9/11 because of your geographic proximity to it. That you feel you can speak for everbody in an entire state and an entire city. You don't.
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HarukaTheTrophyWife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-30-06 05:31 AM
Response to Reply #93
94. No, I don't think it's fine for Congress to limit our rights.
Where the hell did I say that? Personally, I believe that both are tragedies, but this isn't a worse tragedy than 9-11.

I also think it's disrespectful to those who died on 9-11 to diminish the tragedy of it. Which to me, is exactly what the OP is doing.

I think your extrapolation that I think it's fine for people to die under either scenario is repulsive.
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Demit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-30-06 06:29 AM
Response to Reply #94
100. "Congress fucked up but they didn't kill people I personally know"
is what you said. The statement reveals that your disapproval of Congress is tempered, not by the fact that they didn't kill anybody, period, but that they didn't kill anybody you know. They're your words, darlin'. You chose them—and the chest-puffed-out ones that followed, implying that you have more right to your feelings about 9/11 than anyone else has to theirs, because you live geographically closer. If you don't want your words to look absurd upon examination, take more care with them.
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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-30-06 05:03 PM
Response to Reply #100
108. No, you're putting words in haruka3_2000's mouth.
Straw argument. Haruka3_2000 didn't say they don't care about innocent lives lost if they don't know the person, haruka3_2000 was saying they know someone who was killed on 9/11.
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U4ikLefty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-01-06 02:29 AM
Response to Reply #108
111. Actually, it is YOU who is putting words in DemItAllAnyway 's mouth.
You put in YOUR interpretation of their post.
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HarukaTheTrophyWife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-01-06 02:35 AM
Response to Reply #111
113. Yes, but his interpretation of the post was correct.
And DemItAllAnyway was putting words into my mouth.
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U4ikLefty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-01-06 02:44 AM
Response to Reply #113
114. You were the one who posted the quote.
It is there to read. DemItAllAnyway interpreted it and I believe he had some insight into the words you chose to use.
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HarukaTheTrophyWife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-01-06 02:50 AM
Response to Reply #114
115. It still doesn't mean he interpreted it correctly.
Edited on Sun Oct-01-06 03:01 AM by haruka3_2000
He interpreted it wrong. You can believe him or you can believe me, the one who has the best insight into my views on the matter.
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U4ikLefty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-01-06 03:17 AM
Response to Reply #115
117. I said that greyl interpreted DemItAllAnyway's post.
Edited on Sun Oct-01-06 03:43 AM by U4ikLefty
DemItAllAnyway said no such thing as you don't care about the innocent victims...which is what greyl said. DemItAllAnywaya just raised a question about the phrasing of your post.

What DemItAllAnyway DID clue in to, was the fact you chose your words & they revealed perhaps more of your feelings than you care to admit.
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U4ikLefty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-01-06 02:30 AM
Response to Reply #108
112. Dupe.
Edited on Sun Oct-01-06 02:30 AM by U4ikLefty
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KAZ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-30-06 08:46 AM
Response to Original message
102. Excellent post Stella!
And I understand why your title upsets some folks here. It is quite incendiary, though I believe that was your intent. Some might say that these times demand a little fire in our words. I can see where OMC, Onenote, and Skinner are coming from. I believe we all have the same goals, but different ideas on how to attain them.

I would rather read a thread containing some different points of view, than one filled with "K&R"s, though this thread certainly deserves them (except for the personal stuff against OMC).
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-30-06 08:55 AM
Response to Original message
103. Agreed - back then we were free, now we no longer are
I don't understand how people can underestimate the implications of this.
I do understand how people who do underestimate it, would call those who don't, "out of touch".
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Imagevision Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-30-06 10:42 AM
Response to Original message
105. Bush should shut up on 9-11- his administration failed the american people
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